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Italy12246 Posts
On May 26 2013 16:00 S7EFEN wrote:
Not sure how to effectively deal with DT mirrors when going for a DT expand. I heard mention of a 'safe' DT build that gets the robo before DTs hit but when should I drop that down in relation to my shrine/nexus/extra gates?
Also, kinda odd question - why are observers built out of the robotics? Toss is the only race where they need a certain tech path to get detection.
If you are super suspicious of DT, do something like this: http://drop.sc/337872 (i could have gotten my nexus way faster but i was afraid of a stargate all-in, so i played overly safe), otherwise you can get your robo up after your nexus as part of your standard build and still be fine.
Observers out of the robo are fine.
On May 26 2013 16:17 dasfewfawdx wrote:
PvP:
What's the "proper" way to defend against a proxy one gate given:
1) You don't scout it before his first zealot comes into your base
2) You do scout it with a gateway scout
I've tend to switch my opening to variations off a proxy one gate (ie 1 gate FE, three gate pressure, etc) and I've seen a variety of responses, the majority of which end in a four gate robo of some sort (mid masters). Despite their initial reaction, whether it be chronoing off one gateway or throwing down fast two gateway while cutting probes, none of the reactions seem particularly effective, as I've usually come out ahead in both probes (I chrono three+ times before cyber), tech (faster WG), and even faster expansions. Any thoughts on how to optimally counter a proxy one gate?
I have faced it once (scouted it off an assim scout i believe) and just went zealot/core/zealot, which worked out pretty well.
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On May 26 2013 16:17 dasfewfawdx wrote:
PvP:
What's the "proper" way to defend against a proxy one gate given:
1) You don't scout it before his first zealot comes into your base
2) You do scout it with a gateway scout
I've tend to switch my opening to variations off a proxy one gate (ie 1 gate FE, three gate pressure, etc) and I've seen a variety of responses, the majority of which end in a four gate robo of some sort (mid masters). Despite their initial reaction, whether it be chronoing off one gateway or throwing down fast two gateway while cutting probes, none of the reactions seem particularly effective, as I've usually come out ahead in both probes (I chrono three+ times before cyber), tech (faster WG), and even faster expansions. Any thoughts on how to optimally counter a proxy one gate?
Funny, I was actually going to make a post asking about 1gate proxy but from an offensive point of view. I tried it earlier and I ended up ahead on probes after killing 4. I think in my game my opponent cut some probes while I was chroning them out, because he wanted to get out extra stuff to defend my rush(probably thought I was 2gating). I won my game with a follow up 4gate, but I think the success of the build is more based upon a weakness in your opponent's response. You might come out even, or a little ahead in probes, but you lose your gateway/pylon. You come out even on tech.
So my analysis of the build, here's the pro/con list for guy proxying the 1gate
+even or ahead on econ
= even on tech
-behind on production buildings/structure investment
If your opponent doesn't see your gateway and doesn't have a zealot coming up when your own zealot walks in, you can probably do enough damage to take an actual lead in the game..
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Is Protoss generally seen as competitive in terms of playing purely macro / defensive style , or is it actually reliant on gimmicks in the end? I hear this a lot and tend to agree with it. I'm not trying to start an argument but I want to know if I can aim for a macro style without using all ins or gimmicks and be competitive with zerg and terran. I know we see players like Rain and Parting do it but a lot of succesful protoss players are certainly reliant on it. it seems to be pretty well agreed upon that protoss is somewhat reliant on these things. but then again im not sure if i agree.
it really makes me want to switch races sometimes but i still love toss...just want to know what most people think?
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Italy12246 Posts
On May 27 2013 01:28 JSK wrote:
Is Protoss generally seen as competitive in terms of playing purely macro / defensive style , or is it actually reliant on gimmicks in the end? I hear this a lot and tend to agree with it. I'm not trying to start an argument but I want to know if I can aim for a macro style without using all ins or gimmicks and be competitive with zerg and terran. I know we see players like Rain and Parting do it but a lot of succesful protoss players are certainly reliant on it. it seems to be pretty well agreed upon that protoss is somewhat reliant on these things. but then again im not sure if i agree.
it really makes me want to switch races sometimes but i still love toss...just want to know what most people think?
You can most definitely play a solid macro style as Protoss, as you said some of the best Protoss players do it consistently.
That said, all-ins are part of the game and not alling beacuse "you will never improve", "it's too easy", "it's gimmicky" or whatever is a silly way of approaching things (and it's been argued to death on this forum so please let's not start that up again). Eventually you want to be able to do both, even though it's certainly fine to emphasize heavily the macro side of things. Plus, some allins (blink for example) are actually really hard to pull off and require very good execution on both sides.
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Any tips on how to defend vs a phoenix allin in PvP?
I normally go for a fast expand, and also kinda feel it should be a ok choice vs phoenix since i will lose some probes.
I kinda like to go the ground army vs air, at least in the start. I also feel that on one base, i cant do much vs the phoenix play.
My problem is that if he opens phoenix and spots my early expand, it often triggers him to go allin.
I try to make a stand with 2-3 cannons at my nat and mainly stalkers.
I guess there's somebody else out there that go FE in PvP and manage to deal pretty well with this?
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I agree, even in the world's most enduring strategy game (English chess), there are all-ins, cheese and "macro" builds.
First two would be basically to turn your own pieces against you via checkmate,
And a macro game would be essentially getting as many pawns to the opponent's side of the board to create and end game comp of X no. of queens while defending against all-ins and cheese, sacrificing higher chess pieces (knight and above) if necessary.
So yes, Allins and cheeses are part and parcel of what makes a diverse and entertaining game.
Otherwise there's no point in even watching the first 3 min of any HotS VOD/live cast/etc.
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Master Protoss here and feeling utterly lost vs Zerg. Can anyone share what macro builds they've been going for in PvZ? I've been going 5 Phoenix > Robo > Colossus > third, using the build Rain shows in almost all of his PvZs, and I've been doing pretty poorly with it. My multi-tasking is simply not good enough to consistently macro while constantly being a threat with the Phoenixes. I've also been having huge trouble vs Zergs who just do the old Stephano style and crush me with Roaches vs a few Phoenixes, Sentries and Zealots on my third.
I've also been trying to go for the mass Void Ray style being used by Bisu, Alicia, Flying etc but I don't have a build mapped out and am not quite sure how to pull it off. Does anyone have any details on this build too?
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United States4883 Posts
On May 27 2013 04:01 Xaeldaren wrote:
Master Protoss here and feeling utterly lost vs Zerg. Can anyone share what macro builds they've been going for in PvZ? I've been going 5 Phoenix > Robo > Colossus > third, using the build Rain shows in almost all of his PvZs, and I've been doing pretty poorly with it. My multi-tasking is simply not good enough to consistently macro while constantly being a threat with the Phoenixes. I've also been having huge trouble vs Zergs who just do the old Stephano style and crush me with Roaches vs a few Phoenixes, Sentries and Zealots on my third.
I've also been trying to go for the mass Void Ray style being used by Bisu, Alicia, Flying etc but I don't have a build mapped out and am not quite sure how to pull it off. Does anyone have any details on this build too?
Honestly, the biggest thing I've come across is the timing of your 3rd base. If you're not disrupting your opponent's economy early via a fast warpgate attack, you should probably be taking your 3rd a minute or two sooner. The difference between setting up a 3rd against mass ling/roach and defending an already established 3rd against mass ling/roach are two different worlds.
Personally, I generally go for either 1) +1 4-gate with void ray/oracle into a 3rd at 10:00 or 2) a sentry/immortal expand at 9:30 (not very safe against mutas anymore). The rule I generally go with is: get your 3rd down before 10:00 or do a 2-base all-in. If you've been having a lot of trouble with nexus snipes at your 3rd with mass zerglings, just get an oracle out before your phoenixes and you'll DESTROY ling attacks. Hope this helps!
PS: This is all based off of FFE. If you're doing a gate expand style, the timings for everything are about a minute and a half sooner.
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United States4883 Posts
On May 27 2013 01:28 JSK wrote:
Is Protoss generally seen as competitive in terms of playing purely macro / defensive style , or is it actually reliant on gimmicks in the end? I hear this a lot and tend to agree with it. I'm not trying to start an argument but I want to know if I can aim for a macro style without using all ins or gimmicks and be competitive with zerg and terran. I know we see players like Rain and Parting do it but a lot of succesful protoss players are certainly reliant on it. it seems to be pretty well agreed upon that protoss is somewhat reliant on these things. but then again im not sure if i agree.
it really makes me want to switch races sometimes but i still love toss...just want to know what most people think?
Protoss is kind of designed like this: 1) get economy, 2) get some form of tech (warp gate, blink, colossus, etc.), then 3) either add 4 gateways and attack OR add another nexus and defend.
That being said, because warp gate exists, you can suddenly slam out a bunch of units while being on fairly equal economic footing with your opponent, which has led to a lot of all-ins from protoss over the past few years. What you COULDN'T do in WoL was go halfway between expanding and attacking because your units were expensive, had to be babysat, and couldn't continue trading cost-efficiently without more reinforcements. However, with the MsC in HotS and more potential for small groups of units to trade cost effectively with time warp and recall, protoss is DEFINITELY able to play real macro games now
(and be aggressive too). You don't need to rely on specific 2-base attacks in order to win (but that's still a tool in arsenal).
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On May 27 2013 01:28 JSK wrote:
Is Protoss generally seen as competitive in terms of playing purely macro / defensive style , or is it actually reliant on gimmicks in the end? I hear this a lot and tend to agree with it. I'm not trying to start an argument but I want to know if I can aim for a macro style without using all ins or gimmicks and be competitive with zerg and terran. I know we see players like Rain and Parting do it but a lot of succesful protoss players are certainly reliant on it. it seems to be pretty well agreed upon that protoss is somewhat reliant on these things. but then again im not sure if i agree.
it really makes me want to switch races sometimes but i still love toss...just want to know what most people think?
Gimmick is tossed around so much, that it becomes fact just by constant repetition. No-one really specifies what gimmick is, though, or in what way Protoss is gimmicky. The fact that Protoss has timing attacks that can be very powerful? That is part of the game, every race has timing attacks, and the fact that Protoss timing attacks can be extremely powerful is in no way gimmicky. Besides, these timing attacks take precision and skill to execute (some more than others, admittedly).
Macro play with considered aggression is viable. Rain/Parting are two high tier players. If they can do it at the highest level, so can you. I'm not saying that Protoss may not lack a certain little something at the very highest level of play - maybe they do. But HOTS has a long way yet to go, with LOTV to come. So, if there is a hole, maybe it will be identified and filled.
More to the point though, this is immaterial for most of us in the leagues we play. It really should not make a difference. So, if you love Protoss, forget the gimmick bullshit from Terran and Zerg (and sadly a few Protoss) on these boards. Play your race. And play it the way you want to play it. Be proud of your race. Have fun. That's the way I see it anyway. Good luck, mate.
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I wonder if you guys have tips for scouting zerg. When I scout terran, it's pretty easy to know where his army will be and look at his production facilities and point out whether it's mech or bio. In PvP, it's easy to spot his army too and scout his base.
However, spotting the army of a zerg player is something much harder to do. And you can't know for sure what he is doing when you see his buildings. If you scout factories + techlab, you know there will most likely be siege tanks in his unit mix. He could get thors, but there shouldn't be a problem as long as you get immortals out vs both. It's so much harder to "read" the zerg, because he only has to make a single building to produce new units - his true production facility is his hatcheries.
It feels like this is even worse in diamond league, where you see all sorts of weird things. How can I truly improve my scouting in PvZ?
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On May 27 2013 06:29 vhapter wrote:
I wonder if you guys have tips for scouting zerg. When I scout terran, it's pretty easy to know where his army will be and look at his production facilities and point out whether it's mech or bio. In PvP, it's easy to spot his army too and scout his base.
However, spotting the army of a zerg player is something much harder to do. And you can't know for sure what he is doing when you see his buildings. If you scout factories + techlab, you know there will most likely be siege tanks in his unit mix. He could get thors, but there shouldn't be a problem as long as you get immortals out vs both. It's so much harder to "read" the zerg, because he only has to make a single building to produce new units - his true production facility is his hatcheries.
It feels like this is even worse in diamond league, where you see all sorts of weird things. How can I truly improve my scouting in PvZ?
Well it's simple, really. If you scout the one tech building zerg has, you will know exactly what's coming up. Spire? Mutas. Infestation pit? Swarmhosts (since nobody opens infestors nowadays). Hydra den? Well, hydras.
Very important to check his hive timings as well, to know when ultras or vipers can hit the field. If you see double evo, 3rd base around 7 minutes and no other tech but quick hive you're up against ling-ultra.
Hope this helps a bit - I'm a master zerg myself so just throwing some basic stuff out there.
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On May 27 2013 04:01 Xaeldaren wrote:
Master Protoss here and feeling utterly lost vs Zerg. Can anyone share what macro builds they've been going for in PvZ? I've been going 5 Phoenix > Robo > Colossus > third, using the build Rain shows in almost all of his PvZs, and I've been doing pretty poorly with it. My multi-tasking is simply not good enough to consistently macro while constantly being a threat with the Phoenixes. I've also been having huge trouble vs Zergs who just do the old Stephano style and crush me with Roaches vs a few Phoenixes, Sentries and Zealots on my third.
I've also been trying to go for the mass Void Ray style being used by Bisu, Alicia, Flying etc but I don't have a build mapped out and am not quite sure how to pull it off. Does anyone have any details on this build too?
I've been doing the phoenix->colo as well, and it's pretty hard to pull off this days. In wol, 90% of the games would involve hitting a pre-hive timing (super strong) into mothership with warp-prisms to buy time. In hots, there is no set plan anymore, since zerg mid to late game is very diverse. You have to learn how to play against roach/hydra agression, or swarm host, or ling/ultra or anything in between, always looking out for a muta transition. Than there is late game with vipers, lots of ultras or lots of swarm hosts, all being very micro intensive, positioning intensive and requiring different compositions.
Learning involves a lot of losing and you have to be on top of scouting. I know that's not really an answer, I just wanted to share the struggle and say that is not the build that is bad, it's just a lot harder to do than in wol. Even though I am still losing a lot, I think that if I keep on playing this way I will eventually get better.
To defend the stephano style roach max, you have to scout his extractor count with the phoenix and go constant immortal, with good FF and sim-city. Try delaying your colossus or getting a faster third.
For the mass void ray style, other than watching PL games I'd recommend watching rsvp stream and his replay pack. This thread may also help: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=407414
Personally, I go stargate - > third -> robo + second stargate, since the counter to the build is queen+hydras with a nydus, and you can't beat that without fast colossus (see CJ Hero x soulkey in PL rnd 5: http://www.twitch.tv/sc2proleague/c/2247923)
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Italy12246 Posts
Scouting Z: keep sending hallucinations, have an obs on his rally point (usually between third and nat), move on the map once you trade decently after a fight wtih a msc ready to recall, learn how to gauge wether he's tech switching by looking at his unit count. This last point is particularly hard to do and takes tons of experience.
Also, once you make a read, trust it. If you think he's going muta go balls out muta defense and get that fleet beacon, don't just kind of make a couple of phoenixes, then change your mind. Personally, i feel like losing games because of a missed read is less frustrating than losing games because you try to account for every possible option coming your way (which is impossible). This is especially true in PvZ.
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On May 27 2013 06:40 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 06:29 vhapter wrote:
I wonder if you guys have tips for scouting zerg. When I scout terran, it's pretty easy to know where his army will be and look at his production facilities and point out whether it's mech or bio. In PvP, it's easy to spot his army too and scout his base.
However, spotting the army of a zerg player is something much harder to do. And you can't know for sure what he is doing when you see his buildings. If you scout factories + techlab, you know there will most likely be siege tanks in his unit mix. He could get thors, but there shouldn't be a problem as long as you get immortals out vs both. It's so much harder to "read" the zerg, because he only has to make a single building to produce new units - his true production facility is his hatcheries.
It feels like this is even worse in diamond league, where you see all sorts of weird things. How can I truly improve my scouting in PvZ? Well it's simple, really. If you scout the one tech building zerg has, you will know exactly what's coming up. Spire? Mutas. Infestation pit? Swarmhosts (since nobody opens infestors nowadays). Hydra den? Well, hydras. Very important to check his hive timings as well, to know when ultras or vipers can hit the field. If you see double evo, 3rd base around 7 minutes and no other tech but quick hive you're up against ling-ultra. Hope this helps a bit - I'm a master zerg myself so just throwing some basic stuff out there.
For the first part, while not being wrong, doesn't solve all problems. For instance, Zerg can easily put down an infestation pit and a spire at the same time, and you can't really know if he is going Swarm Host + Corruptors or full mutas, unless you actually see the units. In the same way, if Protoss opens stargate, zerg will throw down a hydra den as a response. He will usually have an earlier safety roach warren as well, but with those structures (even plus a spire) you can't know if he is planning to max with roach+hydra unless you see his army size. The tip in your second paragraph is great.
How I've been scouting zerg is leaving an obs nearly a rallying point (say, outside his natural), while using phoenix to constantly see his actual units. It's very hard to give specific scouting tips this days, Zerg can do a lot of different things.
You should at least know all early game scouting queues (all-in or no, up until the point he can do a stephano roach max - the PvZ TL guide still applies here). Other than that, it comes down to experience, like when you can sense his ground attack is weaker than it should be and you realize he is remaxing on mutas.
If you don't want to bother with scouting, playing airtoss (the mass VR style into colo/templar) will give you the initiave, in the sense that zerg will be pressed to make a very specific response. As long as you get colossus early, you only really care if he is getting mass mutas. which you will already be pre set-up to defend (structure and upgrades for phoenixs), and his hive timing (for your templar tech timing, which you can do blindly when in doubt).
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On May 27 2013 01:47 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 01:28 JSK wrote:
Is Protoss generally seen as competitive in terms of playing purely macro / defensive style , or is it actually reliant on gimmicks in the end? I hear this a lot and tend to agree with it. I'm not trying to start an argument but I want to know if I can aim for a macro style without using all ins or gimmicks and be competitive with zerg and terran. I know we see players like Rain and Parting do it but a lot of succesful protoss players are certainly reliant on it. it seems to be pretty well agreed upon that protoss is somewhat reliant on these things. but then again im not sure if i agree.
it really makes me want to switch races sometimes but i still love toss...just want to know what most people think? You can most definitely play a solid macro style as Protoss, as you said some of the best Protoss players do it consistently. That said, all-ins are part of the game and not alling beacuse "you will never improve", "it's too easy", "it's gimmicky" or whatever is a silly way of approaching things (and it's been argued to death on this forum so please let's not start that up again). Eventually you want to be able to do both, even though it's certainly fine to emphasize heavily the macro side of things. Plus, some allins (blink for example) are actually really hard to pull off and require very good execution on both sides.
I would say that if someone wants to improve as a player with both macro and micro then you should really focus on timing attacks with macro behind it. for example, I go for dt drops pvt with a fast third behind it and if you screw up with your micro or macro the game can be lost
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Italy12246 Posts
I think you should start with simple straightforward builds. 2base timings like 7gates (pvt/pvz) or phoenix busts (pvp) are a good start imo. The build you describe sounds extremely technical and unforgiving, so i wouldn't recommend it to someone just starting.
Of course, it also depends on what level you are and what you want to improve. For example, the Soultrain is a good way to practice forcefield, while DT or stargate is nice to work on multitasking.
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anyone found any good blind counters to the marine/widow mine drop into fast 3cc since every terran on the ladder seems to be doing it atm
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On May 27 2013 04:01 Xaeldaren wrote:
Master Protoss here and feeling utterly lost vs Zerg. Can anyone share what macro builds they've been going for in PvZ? I've been going 5 Phoenix > Robo > Colossus > third, using the build Rain shows in almost all of his PvZs, and I've been doing pretty poorly with it. My multi-tasking is simply not good enough to consistently macro while constantly being a threat with the Phoenixes. I've also been having huge trouble vs Zergs who just do the old Stephano style and crush me with Roaches vs a few Phoenixes, Sentries and Zealots on my third.
I've also been trying to go for the mass Void Ray style being used by Bisu, Alicia, Flying etc but I don't have a build mapped out and am not quite sure how to pull it off. Does anyone have any details on this build too?
I think stargate openning is an only solid macro build in this match-up. Everything else dies to mutalisks, because it seems that phoenixes are the only counter to them.
I only can advise to get colossi range researched to 13 min and use timewarps to hold roach or hydra\roach aggression.
The good thing about this build is that if you hold any sort of early aggression from zerg you will be able to do a very strong timing attack and probably finish the game.
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EPT
