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Italy12246 Posts
On May 27 2013 12:57 WaZ wrote:
anyone found any good blind counters to the marine/widow mine drop into fast 3cc since every terran on the ladder seems to be doing it atm
There really isn't much of a "blind counter", but after you defend his drop (which imo is much easier to deal with than the same push but with hellions) if he's going 3cc you should just be able to immortal bust him.
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Hi
I am going to switch and master protoss race but at the begining of my journey I got many questions (all matchups included) and I think I must know the answers to them before starting
If you got an answer to any of my question just add number of question before answering to it (obvious), or just answer all of them if you would like to.
Thanks for input
PvT
1) What is the most safe opening in this matchup?
2) Is there any way to play late game against terran without using collossi or high templars?
3) What is the proper response to fast 3rd by terran? how can I punish it early?
4) What units should I warp to defend drops when unspotted, and what units to do when I can see it coming?
5) Which all-in is the strongest / most popular in pvt right now?
6) What mistakes should I avoid making in this matchup?
PvZ
7) What is the most safe opening in this matchup?
8) What is the main difference between FFE and 1gate FE?
9) How do I counter mass muta (+ling or spines) in late game? which units should I make? what should be my gameplan in that scenario?
10) How can I punish player who is going mutaling early?
11) How do I counter 2 base hydralisk? which units should I make?
12) If I open 2 base 2 stargate, and opponent is going to mass hydralisk what can I do to survive?
13) How do I counter roach hydra viper in late game scenario? which units should I make? what should be my gameplan in that scenario?
14) Which all-in is the strongest / most popular in pvz right now?
15) What mistakes should I avoid making in this matchup?
PvP
16) What is the most safe opening in this matchup?
17) If going blink build, what is the correct build order including msc? how many gates early?
18) How many probes should I make when playing one base build? To not die to random 4gate or smth like that?
19) Is there any expand build which works and is safe in pvp?
20) Which all-in is the strongest / most popular in pvp right now?
21) What mistakes should I avoid making in this matchup?
Bonus questions
22) What is the strongest late game army possible in pvt, pvz, pvp?
23) Your favourite cheese and why?
Some dude sent me here, I am not sure if so many questions can be asked but still appreciate your answers.
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In PvZ, if I successfully cancel a hatch-first opening with a cannon rush, how should I follow up? I just lost a game where that happened because most Zergs aren't stupid enough to let me pull it off, and I don't know how to continue from there.
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United States4883 Posts
On May 27 2013 23:32 Salivanth wrote:
In PvZ, if I successfully cancel a hatch-first opening with a cannon rush, how should I follow up? I just lost a game where that happened because most Zergs aren't stupid enough to let me pull it off, and I don't know how to continue from there.
Continue the game as normal and just followup with big gateway aggression. When you get warpgate, you can attack his 3rd and main at the same time and there's very little he can do about it. That or a straight-forward push directly into his main while FFing the ramp is a pretty safe strategy.
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United States4883 Posts
On May 27 2013 18:42 haaz wrote:
Hi
I am going to switch and master protoss race but at the begining of my journey I got many questions (all matchups included) and I think I must know the answers to them before starting
If you got an answer to any of my question just add number of question before answering to it (obvious), or just answer all of them if you would like to.
Thanks for input
PvT
1) What is the most safe opening in this matchup?
2) Is there any way to play late game against terran without using collossi or high templars?
3) What is the proper response to fast 3rd by terran? how can I punish it early?
4) What units should I warp to defend drops when unspotted, and what units to do when I can see it coming?
5) Which all-in is the strongest / most popular in pvt right now?
6) What mistakes should I avoid making in this matchup?
PvZ
7) What is the most safe opening in this matchup?
8) What is the main difference between FFE and 1gate FE?
9) How do I counter mass muta (+ling or spines) in late game? which units should I make? what should be my gameplan in that scenario?
10) How can I punish player who is going mutaling early?
11) How do I counter 2 base hydralisk? which units should I make?
12) If I open 2 base 2 stargate, and opponent is going to mass hydralisk what can I do to survive?
13) How do I counter roach hydra viper in late game scenario? which units should I make? what should be my gameplan in that scenario?
14) Which all-in is the strongest / most popular in pvz right now?
15) What mistakes should I avoid making in this matchup?
PvP
16) What is the most safe opening in this matchup?
17) If going blink build, what is the correct build order including msc? how many gates early?
18) How many probes should I make when playing one base build? To not die to random 4gate or smth like that?
19) Is there any expand build which works and is safe in pvp?
20) Which all-in is the strongest / most popular in pvp right now?
21) What mistakes should I avoid making in this matchup?
Bonus questions
22) What is the strongest late game army possible in pvt, pvz, pvp?
23) Your favourite cheese and why?
Some dude sent me here, I am not sure if so many questions can be asked but still appreciate your answers.
I'll do my best:
PvT:
1) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292549. Pretty much this, just take your 3rd a little later in HotS.
2) No. You need both colossus and templar in order to survive. Lategame you want something like 6 colossus to bloat his viking count and at least 4 templar with your army, a couple others scattered around the map building energy.
3) I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. If it's a fast triple CC, a gate/immortal/oracle bust does the trick. If you mean just a fast 3rd around 9:30, there's not a lot other than expanding yourself or harassing with zealots when he tries to move out.
4) You generally want 5 stalkers to be guarding drop paths; 5 stalkers 2-shot a medivac. If you otherwise don't have units around, you want to warp in 2 templar + zealots, do a double feedback and immediate archon.
5) Probably the oracle bust. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403831
6) Don't lose your MsC or sentries. If you sit back in this matchup and just defend and chronoboost out upgrades, it's a fairly easy matchup to win.
PvZ:
7-8) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628
9) Against mutas in HotS, you need a lot of cannons, HT, and a fleet of phoenixes with range. Mutas are disgustingly hard to play against, but essentially that's the composition you want. Also, zealot runbys are fairly strong against muta play.
10) Hard question to answer. Generally zergs go +1+1 lings into mutas. Forcing a lot of lings by feigning early pressure sets you up pretty safely for taking 3 bases and getting HT/blink.
11) Colossus. If zerg doesn't take a 3rd early, just always make a colossus bay.
12) Double stargate is bad unless you're doing phoenix/chargelot, in which case you need to do a lot of economic damage and constant aggression to keep the hydra count low.
13) The norm: colossus/immortal/stalker/sentry with a handful of templar for feedback and storm.
14) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=413736
15) Don't lose sentries.
PvP:
16) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408723, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=406177, 17) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=410802, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381717, 19) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414216. Pick whichever one you want.
18) 16-20 probes max on minerals and 3 on each geyser. Against a 4-gate, you will probably be able to populate only one geyser. When the 4-gate hits, you need to cut probes.
20) Not entirely sure, but stargate is the strongest opener right now with the best potential to outright kill you. Void ray all-ins and phoenix all-ins are quite strong.
21) Don't lose sentries.
22) Mostly colossus/immortal/stalker/templar. In PvP, tempest/immortal/chargelot is the new deathball. The Skytoss deathball is carrier/void ray/tempest/HT. But mostly, you'll be making colossus/immortal/stalker/templar.
23) Proxy 2-gate for life. When you start playing protoss a lot, you'll understand why PvP is bullshit sometimes, and this build is the main reason.
Hope this helps!
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Italy12246 Posts
More accurately:
3) If it's a 111 into 3cc type thing you can immortal bust him upon scouting it, especially if his harassment doesn't do enough damage. If it's 1rax cc into 3cc you can't do it reactively (as you will be teching faster, meaning less units for you to bust him with) so your best bet is to try and play greedier than normal with a faster third. That said, 3cc is really uncommon with all the 1-2 base timings that P can do these days.
4) Purely stalker defense is no longer optimal as you can't shoot down the medivacs before they unload anymore. You want a combination of zealot/stalker, potentially with a sentry, cannon and/or nexus cannon.
6) Don't push on the map for no reason. You can try to put some pressure on with storm drops, warp prisms and zealot runbys, but generally the mobility of the terran army means you have to play defensively.
9) 2-3 stargate phoenix with range. Templar/stalker doesn't work anymore because the mutas just regen their hp too fast.
10) If you plan on taking a third you can't for the most part. Otherwise, any 2base allin destroys greedy muta builds.
11) As long as you get cannons up end slowly tech to colossus you will be fine. Don't rush for colo until you have a solid defense at your front though. Also watch out with the support bay thing, you must be wary of 2base muta.
12) Build shit tons of cannons. That said, 1stargate/third/3stargate or, as rsvp does, 1stargate/third/2stargate+fleet beacon is better than 2stargate/third. Carriers are actually surprisingly good vs hydras, and you can get up a couple in time for hydra busts.
13) I'll add: scout his hive timng and add templar when he techs to vipers, or if he sticks to roach/hydra/corruptor as you take your fourth.
14) 2colossi+2immortal allin. Vods from: albm vs squirtle on bel'shir vestige, Flying vs Roro on DS Atlas
15) Don't dick around the map for no reason, keep scouting to make sure you know exactly what he's teching to. The best way to scout is hallucination, as observers and stargate units are more easily repelled.
18) Don't go over like 24ish while chronoing only your nexus and you'll be fine. You need to make sure to get sentries up to ff your ramp more than anythig vs 4gate.
19) Basically every build has some kind of counter in PvP, but yeah you can try to 1gate FE. Check out rsvp's replay pack.
20) Probably 3gate stargate busts, since they do well vs fast expand which are pretty popular.
21) Trying to account for everything an opponent could throw at you. Learn to make solid reads and trust them instead.
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So I'm in Gold and my overall ratio is currently 10 Wins/15 Losses (13 Wins considering placement), but this is because my PvZ and PvP are above 80% while my PvT is somewhere like 10%. I have only won any of my vT games when I do a Blink Stalker All-In, which feels very cheap to me seeing as I got to Gold off of an extremely high vT winrate from the 1Gate FE into early Colossus. However, now it seems that I am for some reason unable to execute the 1Gate FE into early Colossus because my army always gets wrecked by a Stim push into my front or multi-prong harass or really anything that the Terran does. It seems very, very difficult to execute the build perfectly enough to actually have enough army to defend myself.
All that being said, I have been considering a safer expand, because for a reason I cannot identify, I seem unable to hold any pressure the Terran does. I remember in WoL that the 3-Gate Pressure Expand was very viable because it allowed to you hit the Terran's front at about the time that a 1/2Rax expand was weak and you had a base building at home.
So I suppose my question simplified is; am I currently missing something about the 1Gate FE that changed going from high Silver to Gold? Do I just need to master my build order more perfectly up to 10 minutes? Or would I be better served doing a safer expand in PvT?
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Italy12246 Posts
It's an execution problem from your part, 1gate FE straight into robo is safe against anything the terran can throw at you if done correctly.
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See, that was my impression too. Especially considering how successful I had been in Silver with it. I just feel like I always have less units than my enemy now. Not trying to be a complainer at all because I always try to take responsibility for my losses, but I feel sort of overwhelmed with the matchup at this point.
I have been practicing this build:
9 – Pylon
13 – Gateway
15 – Assimilator
16 – Pylon
18 – @100% Gateway, start Cybernetics Core
19 – Zealot
22 – Pylon
24 – @100% Cybernetics Core, start Stalker and Warpgate Research
29 – @400 Mins, start Nexus
@100 Gas, start Mothership Core and 2nd Assimilator
@100 Gas, start Robotics Facility
@100 Gas, start Sentry and 2 more Gateways
@100% Robotics Facility, start Observer
@100% Observer, start 2nd Observer, Robotics Bay, 2 Forges, and 2 more Assimilators
@100% Forges, start +1/+1
@100% Robotics Bay, start Extended Thermal Lance and constant Colossus production
@100% 1st Colossus, start Twilight Council
@100% +1/+1, start +2/+2, and add 3 more Gateways
Benchmark: @100% +1/+1 (@10:30ish), you should have around 55 Probes, 1 Sentry, and 2 Colossi
Is that a good guide to follow for a player at Gold level? Or is there some permutation which may be easier to execute?
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Italy12246 Posts
Looks reasonable.
I'd add that if you see any kind of aggression coming your way with your obs, cut tech in favour of chronoing an immortal and warping in an extra round of units; normally when you do that kind of build you cut warpgate units to have your tech and production line up with a Terran's medivac timing. On the other hand, in lower leagues people are bad and attack at stupid times (like just with stim). If you see it coming it's incredibly easy to crush it, if you dont you should still be able to defend (especially with the msc) but it can be trickier.
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Okay, I'll just keep practicing until it is in my reflexes and I don't miss any of the timings. Also, I think that cutting that Bay if I see the push might be the type of thing I need to keep in mind. And using my Forcefields to buy time at the ramp could really make a big difference.
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Italy12246 Posts
You should be fighting at your natural not up a ramp. As i said, you can hold your nexus against everything the Terran throws at you.
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On May 22 2013 13:13 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 10:50 bertu wrote:On May 22 2013 10:36 vhapter wrote:On May 22 2013 07:43 Ben... wrote:
Anyone else having a lot of trouble with PvT lately? I usually have an above 70% winrate in it but the last few days I have only won a couple of games out of many. What is causing me to lose (HuK just lost to it against Demuslim on his stream right now and I have seen Incontrol losing to it too the last couple days), is Terran going for double or triple drops (usually marauder heavy), boosting in, targeting down the nexus (be it main or third), and then picking up and boosting out. Usually this can be done before you can get there to defend. The trouble is that it always puts you economically behind, even if all probes are saved. The trouble is that unlike with single medivac drops, you need a much more substantial army to deal with double/triple drops since they are so much more powerful, and this puts you in a very awkward situation when it comes to dealing with both the drop and frontal pressure. Leave HT behind + cannons. Make sure you have open gateways. And ofc, if you don't have enough gateways to warp in at 2-3 locations or leave enough units behind, it could turn into a disaster. Alternatively, if you didn't go DTs earlier, you may want to consider adding a dark shrine. DTs could be good for tactical drops and also for defense. Er, those kind of response are only really viable in late game, and it's not like a DT warp-in can save a nexus in the scenario described. I don't see any pros rushing to DTs to defend drops in mid-game. Even in late game, getting upgrades, storm, decent stalker count and decent colossus count are all higher gas priority than having a DT shrine and money for defensive DT warp-ins. DTs are OK to disincentive small drops (even though there are better responses), but don't do enough against doom drops, which is the trouble here. If it's a mid-game big drop (11-15min), the only way to defend is to have great vision so you can safely leave like a third or more of your army preemptively in a key location, but that still can be pulled back if they overcommit in the front pressure. Tough as hell, comes down to Protoss vision + positioning versus Terran multitask. The standard response is reasonably timed blink and good observer spread. Builds that go for fast HT (rsvp replay pack) are good too, but the key is still vision. No easy way around it, other than making 2-base all-ins. Builds that prioritize faster upgrades than a faster third is the standard PvT metagame for a reason. Good pros to watch are Rain (proleague) and State (shoutcraft). I was talking about small drops. HT + cannons and open gateways is a pretty solid response at high level and that's not something new, but if he needs something else to back himself up and gets to that stage of the game, he could try using dts defensively. I don't think drops are hard to deal with before you take your third and I do favor map vision over other approaches. It's not something you go for, it's something you simply do when you have a chance. As for nexus sniping, that's a real pain. You have to resort to pylons and observers to get massive vision. It's almost like map hack with in-game cost. ^^
This is also a HUGE problem for me when I play against higher level terrans (1200pts+). The problem is that they often do some weird early stim timing before medivacs (hits at 8-9min) to snipe probes, trade sentries, ect while they go into a fast inbase 3rd cc. Then they just play passive and power to a HUGE timing around 13 min with a big supply advantage (20+) over me and dropping all 3 of my bases at once. I don't have a reliable way to defend that 
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I have a question regarding the difference between an FFE and a Gate expand. Specifically the tech path you "should" follow.
More times than not, I see a Stargate tech path used with a Gate expand that isn't an all-in. It seems far more common than a Robo or TC tech path. I assume this is because you delay your Forge and therefore your +1 weapon upgrade.
I'm really wanting to do a fast Blink build, probably with a Robo as well. Most builds/replays I can find do this from an FFE for the +1 and fast +2 weapons. This makes sense to me.
My question is, can I do that type of build with a gate expand and have it not suck? I really like the ability to put on some three or four gate pressure early on so I want to stick to this gate expand. Before I go try out a TC tech path with this, I just wanted to check to see if someone can give me some feedback on that.
If it is just not worth doing, I won't bother trying to make it work.
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What is the best way to minimize damage of hellbat drops? I've been seeing tons of them today (and hellbat play in general. It is tough to beat). One mistake against these drops seems to end the game, even more so than mine drops (especially when they pick up, boost on top of your fleeing workers, and drop them again). I lost 15 probes in one shot when I tried running them away in one game. Is splitting them the thing to do? I've been leaving 5 stalkers in each mineral line as soon as I see hellbats as a precaution but that seems like overkill. Maybe it isn't though since these drops are so powerful.
How about hellbat/marauder based compositions? With both of those units being tanky it feels like that composition takes forever to kill. Stalker/immortal compositions get destroyed by it and zealots barely even get a hit in. Archons seem okay against it but they aren't something you can exactly rush. Is going stargate the answer? I've only faced this composition a few times and have yet to be able to actually experiment a lot, and only once in the late game (hellbat/marauder/ghost/viking is a terrifying composition).
I think I might start opening Stargate again and seeing how that goes.
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PvT:
Composition-wise, what's the most effective way to deal with hellbat viking assuming the terran has reasonably good scouting and can get an appropriate count of vikings to counter any air units you may possibly make?
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On May 28 2013 12:03 dasfewfawdx wrote:
PvT:
Composition-wise, what's the most effective way to deal with hellbat viking assuming the terran has reasonably good scouting and can get an appropriate count of vikings to counter any air units you may possibly make?
blink stalkers, if your opponent is going mech never get colossus. It is nothing out of his way to get vikings because he does not need the medivacs. Don't get void rays because thors have aoe anti air and ... vikings. Immortals / Archons are probably your best bet, you get the robotics anyway for detection, and the twilight for the upgrades, just start blink and throw down either a dark shrine or get your templar archives out earlier then normal.
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On May 28 2013 12:19 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 12:03 dasfewfawdx wrote:
PvT:
Composition-wise, what's the most effective way to deal with hellbat viking assuming the terran has reasonably good scouting and can get an appropriate count of vikings to counter any air units you may possibly make? blink stalkers, if your opponent is going mech never get colossus. It is nothing out of his way to get vikings because he does not need the medivacs. Don't get void rays because thors have aoe anti air and ... vikings. Immortals / Archons are probably your best bet, you get the robotics anyway for detection, and the twilight for the upgrades, just start blink and throw down either a dark shrine or get your templar archives out earlier then normal.
Two questions:
1) Would it be worth it at all to get/try to storm? Or are hellbats too beefy for archons to be better in that situation?
2) Should you try to play aggressively and try to trade efficiently or should you macro up defensively to get a deathball (which would still be immortal archon I presume?)
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Storm is sick vs hellbats imo. Colossi are strong, but once too many vikings are out... you also need storm. Whenever I can, I go for a a whole lot of colossi, immortals, ht, and archons. Immortals are pretty good once you clear the path for them with colossi + storm. I tried to avoid gateway units vs mech. With good map vision, I think you can reactively make stalkers or whatever you deem necessary.
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EPT
