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Canada13407 Posts
On May 28 2013 12:35 dasfewfawdx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 12:19 DanceSC wrote:On May 28 2013 12:03 dasfewfawdx wrote:
PvT:
Composition-wise, what's the most effective way to deal with hellbat viking assuming the terran has reasonably good scouting and can get an appropriate count of vikings to counter any air units you may possibly make? blink stalkers, if your opponent is going mech never get colossus. It is nothing out of his way to get vikings because he does not need the medivacs. Don't get void rays because thors have aoe anti air and ... vikings. Immortals / Archons are probably your best bet, you get the robotics anyway for detection, and the twilight for the upgrades, just start blink and throw down either a dark shrine or get your templar archives out earlier then normal. Two questions: 1) Would it be worth it at all to get/try to storm? Or are hellbats too beefy for archons to be better in that situation? 2) Should you try to play aggressively and try to trade efficiently or should you macro up defensively to get a deathball (which would still be immortal archon I presume?)
Honestly, if a terran has 2:1 hellbat to tank ratio or something like that I actually like having a lot of collossus, since once the hellbats die you can warp in a lot of zealots/stalker to just steamroll the terran at that point. Take your immortal core and if you see he has a lot of hellbats and not a lot of vikings, just 2 robo chrono 4 collossus and they help a lot in direct engages.
Though I don't see mech too often since I mainly die to drops, I suck vs drops. So take what I said above with a grain of salt, but don't ignore AoE vs hellbats, they have a lot of hp and shred most of your ground units pretty fast.
So I realise in re reading the original question is about straight hellbat and viking, in which case, yeah blink stalkers should be good as would a lot of archons. Anything that doesnt need to get into melee range with the hellbats and cant be shot at by vikings is good.
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On May 28 2013 12:35 dasfewfawdx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 12:19 DanceSC wrote:On May 28 2013 12:03 dasfewfawdx wrote:
PvT:
Composition-wise, what's the most effective way to deal with hellbat viking assuming the terran has reasonably good scouting and can get an appropriate count of vikings to counter any air units you may possibly make? blink stalkers, if your opponent is going mech never get colossus. It is nothing out of his way to get vikings because he does not need the medivacs. Don't get void rays because thors have aoe anti air and ... vikings. Immortals / Archons are probably your best bet, you get the robotics anyway for detection, and the twilight for the upgrades, just start blink and throw down either a dark shrine or get your templar archives out earlier then normal. Two questions: 1) Would it be worth it at all to get/try to storm? Or are hellbats too beefy for archons to be better in that situation? 2) Should you try to play aggressively and try to trade efficiently or should you macro up defensively to get a deathball (which would still be immortal archon I presume?)
1. Storm is always good, he would need barracks to pump out ghosts for emp. Normally when you see mech they add in banshees / ravens for pdd + hunter seeker, at that point it would be better to use feedback, but if you have enough energy storm is always good, mech is slow moving.
2. You can play as aggressive as you want, the blink stalker suggestion was to abuse mobility. If he moves out, you move in. As long as you have a couple observers on the map actively aware of his army's location you are good. I do not recommend defensive because a mech army is more cost efficient, usually by the time they can get to your base, if you are contained you are dead. I've seen some protoss kite blink stalkers to reduce the hellion count so that the zealots are not completely useless, and I've seen others bring the entire army and avoid confrontation utilizing the msc recall.
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I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Rain executed that build really well but still was in a bad spot so even after catching 2 drops he was very close to die from a frontal attack by Flash.
If you go stargate, make it proxy and make at least 2 oracles imo.
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don't say that. Getting 1 in base oracle is fine if you active with it and don't let it die, you have to treat it like observer but can do econ damage.
I've done a build similar to this with pretty good success, just having a unit that can annoy the terran forces either units to stay back and every Turret he builds is a win.
if you get 2 oracles you forced to damage a lot( about 10-12 worker) and If no damage is done your really far behind. Due to the fact you could've just tech harder or even have more units.
a Stargate is 150 min 150 gas
a oracle is 150 min 150 gas
just getting 2 and not doing a lot of damage can hurt a crap ton. if the terran defends perfectly and build turrets but with 1 oracle forcing stims and wasting Medicav energy is great. On top of making the terran leave units and even build turrets to defend is worth doing. Last thing is best part you get a scout of what tech terrans going ,even seeing his army size (obs can do this but a good terran scans his army.)
while still being able to tech a bit but not as much as a Standard build
This build requires
Multi-tasking
Quick Reaction to the terrans build
Use of oracle needs to be a "chipping" away at tarran over time, not a big damage done in a interval.
good game sense ( of base placement and of unit placement / army movement)
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Italy12246 Posts
Rain's build is fine but it's really, really fucking hard to pull off. I've done it a few times but i find i can't get as much out of the oracle as i'd like because i don't execute correctly. It does help tremendously against drop defense though.
That said, wether he went oracle or not doesn't have that much to do with Flash's 3base push and how Rain held it.
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Hello! Not really a help question, just want to know your guys' thoughts on hallucination. Now that it's free in HotS, everyone uses it very much in all matchups. Not just for scouting, but to make your army seem bigger or fake a tech path like colossus, as well. My question is, do you guys think Hallucination always had this kind of potential in WoL, but was underused? It seems like a 100/100 upgrade from cyber core is a very very small cost to pay(especially when air toss was used less in WoL). Do you think if they made it an upgrade again instead of it being a given ability for sentries that it would still be used extremely often? I feel like the ability is incredible and is similar to warp prism buff - the buff was to make it used more instead of to make it much stronger.
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Normally in PvZ, I open 1 gate (msc/stalker/zealot threat) into stargate to get oracles (3) to scout and harass/do economic damage. If unscouted, this usually does a good chunk of damage (2-3 queens, 10-15 drones). However, phoenix openings seem to be more common, and I'm wondering why (I think I have a good idea, but mostly want to check with you guys). I've listed what I believe to be the pros/cons of each opener.
5 Phoenix opener
Pros:
Deny overlord scouts
more prepared for muta switch
less risky opener (can still do some damage if scouted)
Cons:
Costs a bit more
Does less damage unscouted
longer build time
not as useful defending an unscouted all in
3 Oracle
Pros:
does huge damage if unscouted
cheaper cost
comes out quicker
helps more against unscouted all ins
Cons:
doesn't deny scouting
doesn't do anything for muta switch
riskier opening
Which option do you guys feel is more beneficial (I suspect you will respond phoenix), but more importantly what is the reasoning? When looking at the pros/cons, to me, they seem to be fairly even, yet I rarely see oracle openings anymore.
I've checked the first post and didn't see anything relating to this question specifically. It may have been answered somewhere in this thread previously, so I apologize if i am bring it up again.
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Italy12246 Posts
Because of how common Stargate builds are, decent Zergs tend to get spores blindly when they know you aren't going for a warpgate timing, so your oracles basically do nothing most of the time. Phoenixes on the other hand still retain some utility and even harassment potential, which makes them a much better choices.
Between the Nexus cannon and the possibility of chronoing out a void ray you should almost always be fine vs allins when opening stargate anyway.
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I'm kind of tired of playing standard vs Zerg, so I wanted to ask if theres a guide / description of sOs' dt chargelot double stargate style anywhere?
I'd be very grateful!
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In PvZ I love the stargate into robo 4 gate play, but my biggest problem is taking a 3rd without getting overrun with roaches or hyra. I have been taking my 3rd between 8 and 10, and that push always seems to kill me... sometimes i feel it is map dependent, but really i just want to know when i should be taking my 3rd in order to survive...
-top master protoss
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On May 29 2013 14:40 Patriots wrote:
In PvZ I love the stargate into robo 4 gate play, but my biggest problem is taking a 3rd without getting overrun with roaches or hyra. I have been taking my 3rd between 8 and 10, and that push always seems to kill me... sometimes i feel it is map dependent, but really i just want to know when i should be taking my 3rd in order to survive...
-top master protoss
this seems more like a blog post lol but are you asking for the proper timings? i'd also like to know when you need to throw down your robo, robo bay, and 3rd base or any reactions that would differ those timings with that build
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In PvT against standard Terran play, is it safe to go Robo - Forge - Forge - Robo Bay - Twilight Council - Gate - Gate - Gate ?
Or what is the optimal order? Do most people get their forges right after their Robo? Does anyone ever get it before? Sometimes I feel like I have a hard time fitting in all of this stuff before the medivacs hit me at 10-11:00. Thanks for the help..
I suppose it might be because I like opening with an early forge (1x forge) and then going 4 sentries as only units until a colossus is out... (be the leaf pvt guide)
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That does sound too greedy.
Most progamers that I've seen go 1 gate double forge delay their robo for quite a while.
Rely on scouting with hallucination and get cannons for widow mine /hellbat drops
Personally,which is how creator and sometimes axiom tosses played, I just go robo, 2 more gates, double gas, double forge, robo bay - the 3 gates when theyre done usually dont warp in units right away, i scout to see if some sort of early attack coming. Twilight when the forge upgrades need it.
But yeah there are some decent playstyles that get you faster upgrades than this, but they wont get as early a colossus.
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On May 29 2013 17:42 JSK wrote:
In PvT against standard Terran play, is it safe to go Robo - Forge - Forge - Robo Bay - Twilight Council - Gate - Gate - Gate ?
Or what is the optimal order? Do most people get their forges right after their Robo? Does anyone ever get it before? Sometimes I feel like I have a hard time fitting in all of this stuff before the medivacs hit me at 10-11:00. Thanks for the help..
I suppose it might be because I like opening with an early forge (1x forge) and then going 4 sentries as only units until a colossus is out... (be the leaf pvt guide)
Most of the time you go expand into MSC, 2nd gas and so on.
However the timings/order are ~5:20 Robo; 2nd+3rd gate.
~6:20-6:45 3rd/4th gasses.
6:40-7:30 2forges
~7:50-8:30 robo bay or council
8:10-9:10 4th/5th/6th(7th sometimes) gates.
You can also add a council when upgs are at 50% if you feel safe.
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I just had two games where I 7-gate +1 all-ined, and in both of these games, the games involved protracted battles that went on for many minutes.
With this in mind, if I fail to break my opponent with the first couple of waves, but am doing enough damage and not losing units so my push is still very much alive, is it worth it for me to get +1 armor?
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On May 30 2013 00:38 Salivanth wrote:
I just had two games where I 7-gate +1 all-ined, and in both of these games, the games involved protracted battles that went on for many minutes.
With this in mind, if I fail to break my opponent with the first couple of waves, but am doing enough damage and not losing units so my push is still very much alive, is it worth it for me to get +1 armor?
If you are expanding or reinforcing (with warp prism) behind your All-in, yes.
+1 armor can mean the difference between losing units being summoned and them reinforcing the battle at full health.
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Has anyone else been experimenting with sOs's DT all-in in PvZ (I think it was from him versus Losira. Edit: Yep, him vs. Losira games 2 and 3.)? I have to study his games more, but with using that general idea I have been having a lot of success. I basically have been treating it as a 7gate blink all-in but getting a dark shrine instead of blink (the timing to start the tech is the same now since they cost the same amount of gas). If they skip spores you are almost guaranteed to at least kill one hatchery. If they respond with mass speedling you go into zealot/archon and finish them off (you can easily get 3 archons plus plenty of zealots). If they go roach to respond you can either go zealot/archon or mix in a few stalkers. sOs didn't do this exact thing but his play inspired me to try this out and it seems kinda good so far.
Also, I said I was going to try opening stargate against Terran in a previous post (with the idea being that I could try what Rain did or I could go for phoenixes to shut down drops). That did not go well. I have never won if the oracle didn't do damage. I always just felt way too far behind. Opening stargate seems to open up a lot of timings because it is so gas intensive. I am not going to pursue that further.
So that makes me ask, what should I be doing against double drops with pressure at the third at the same time? I have been getting absolutely rocked by this lately. As I said in a previous post, a lot of the time the Terran is just targeting down a nexus and leaving and/or forcing a cancel at the third. These double drops are a completely different beast than single medivac drops. I've been leaving stalkers and zealots in the main, but if the Terran manages to unload (which usually happens while I am trying to hold their frontal pressure) then those stalkers are dead. I've been losing games where I have been massively ahead because of this (games I have deflected earlier pressure with little to no losses). I've tried placing spotter pylons and observers as people have suggested but that doesn't always cut it. I don't know if it is just a case of me being placed against high master Terrans a lot and not being up to snuff yet or if there is something wrong with my play.
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On May 30 2013 02:27 Ben... wrote: So that makes me ask, what should I be doing against double drops with pressure at the third at the same time? I have been getting absolutely rocked by this lately. As I said in a previous post, a lot of the time the Terran is just targeting down a nexus and leaving and/or forcing a cancel at the third. These double drops are a completely different beast than single medivac drops. I've been leaving stalkers and zealots in the main, but if the Terran manages to unload (which usually happens while I am trying to hold their frontal pressure) then those stalkers are dead. I've been losing games where I have been massively ahead because of this (games I have deflected earlier pressure with little to no losses). I've tried placing spotter pylons and observers as people have suggested but that doesn't always cut it. I don't know if it is just a case of me being placed against high master Terrans a lot and not being up to snuff yet or if there is something wrong with my play.
My response is pretty simple. First, I keep a cannon in every mineral line, and try to keep as many crucial buildings as I can within range of nexus cannon.
When a drop arrives, my #1 priority is to kill medivacs. Stalkers, Cannons, anything else in the area is manually targetted on medivacs. Even if they unload, I want the medivac to die. Once a medivac is dead, drops can generally be cleaned up with zealots, which is my goal: Zealots vs. bio means that the onus of microing and paying attention is on the terran, not me.
If I can afford it, I also drop a pair of cannons along the most likely routes a medivac will take: They're almost always queued up along the edges of the map, which means you only really have to defend 2 positions, no matter how many bases you have. I saw this in a few GSL games, and promptly stole it.
I also tend to get a dark shrine around the same time as I get my templar archives (shortly after if I'm going HT first). If you are on-par or ahead, a DT + 5 zealots will generally kill any drop that isn't hellbats, if you've managed to off the medivac.
If I know I'm going to have to micro somewhere else on the map, I warp in the DT in advance. Again, the idea here is that dealing with the DT makes the enemy have to waste his APM, while I don't have to waste mine.
If I kill 2-3 medivacs without suffering severe damage mid-game, I am generally in a position to A-move and win: that's 30 free supply that I'm up.
-Cross (better players than me keep an HT at every base. My reflexes and mini-map awareness have failed me too often for this to be a catchall.)
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United States4883 Posts
On May 29 2013 14:40 Patriots wrote:
In PvZ I love the stargate into robo 4 gate play, but my biggest problem is taking a 3rd without getting overrun with roaches or hyra. I have been taking my 3rd between 8 and 10, and that push always seems to kill me... sometimes i feel it is map dependent, but really i just want to know when i should be taking my 3rd in order to survive...
-top master protoss
You need to be taking your 3rd around the time warp gate finishes (~9:30) and doing a sim-city as fast as possible. At the same time, you should pretty much blindly be throwing down a colossus bay these days and getting 1 colossus asap. From here, make sure your army is positioned either very defensively at your 3rd (relying on your FFE wall for defense of your natural + main) or very aggressively at the top of your natural ramp (or both, if your opponent is splitting units well).
As for maps, I feel like you can stand on your natural ramp better on maps like Zerus Prime, Akilon Wastes and Bel'Shir Vestige while maps that have ramps leading into both the main and the natural are better suited for you to position your army defensively at the 3rd (i.e., Whirlwind, Derelict Watcher, Neo Planet S).
Sidenote: there's no point to taking a 3rd on Star Station lol. 2-base allin FOR LYFE!
On May 29 2013 17:42 JSK wrote:
In PvT against standard Terran play, is it safe to go Robo - Forge - Forge - Robo Bay - Twilight Council - Gate - Gate - Gate ?
Or what is the optimal order? Do most people get their forges right after their Robo? Does anyone ever get it before? Sometimes I feel like I have a hard time fitting in all of this stuff before the medivacs hit me at 10-11:00. Thanks for the help..
I suppose it might be because I like opening with an early forge (1x forge) and then going 4 sentries as only units until a colossus is out... (be the leaf pvt guide)
All responses to this are bad thus far. The timing of your forges and more importantly, your twilight council, depends on how you're planning to play out the midgame. If you are pushing for early double ups, you will get a colossus out on time, but you need to delay getting range and charge. If you go for a single forge + blink, you can have colossus+range up earlier. You can also get double ups into a single colossus without range into templar. All of these tech routes have slightly altered tech paths, but I think your biggest problems are trying to get too much too quickly.
You should probably stick with:
1-gate FE into 2/3gates + robo
Add 2 gases at your natural + 2 forges
Add colossus bay
Add twilight council
Add 3-4 gateways at 9:00* (I go up to 7 gateways)
Chronoboost out a single colossus, start +2/+2 before thermal lance and charge.
Once thermal lance and charge finish, you should be perfectly fine to take your 3rd
Hope this helps!
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Italy12246 Posts
You can also go 2colo with range into templar or mass (4-5) colossi into a 3/3 colo/stalker/zealot/archon timing off a standard double forge at 7-8 ish minutes.
The one game i can think of with a gate/2x forge/2x gates build was parting vs flash on star station, in which Parting got 2/2 sick fast and did a 2base zealot/archon timing. I don't know how allin it is but it sure looked like a cool build.
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EPT
