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On May 30 2013 04:36 Teoita wrote:
You can also go 2colo with range into templar or mass (4-5) colossi into a 3/3 colo/stalker/zealot/archon timing off a standard double forge at 7-8 ish minutes.
The one game i can think of with a gate/2x forge/2x gates build was parting vs flash on star station, in which Parting got 2/2 sick fast and did a 2base zealot/archon timing. I don't know how allin it is but it sure looked like a cool build.
Rain used something similar in his Proleague game against Reality (round 5) with robot and 2 forge before additional gateway. He almost died to the 10:30 medivac timing but then, he transitioned into templar and came back with some great storm and warp prism harrassment. In GSTL, Madbull and Crank did the same thing against Byun (who was going CC first). Both started with a robot and 2 forge before adding their additional gateway around 7:30. Like Rain, Crank transitioned into chargelot/archon but Madbull did go for Collossus.
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On May 30 2013 02:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 00:38 Salivanth wrote:
I just had two games where I 7-gate +1 all-ined, and in both of these games, the games involved protracted battles that went on for many minutes.
With this in mind, if I fail to break my opponent with the first couple of waves, but am doing enough damage and not losing units so my push is still very much alive, is it worth it for me to get +1 armor? If you are expanding or reinforcing (with warp prism) behind your All-in, yes. +1 armor can mean the difference between losing units being summoned and them reinforcing the battle at full health.
I'm reinforcing via proxy pylon, but I don't expand. Victory or death. I'm just not sure if trading 2 Stalkers for 1-2 Zealots right now is worth an upgrade finishing three minutes later.
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On May 30 2013 04:29 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 14:40 Patriots wrote:
In PvZ I love the stargate into robo 4 gate play, but my biggest problem is taking a 3rd without getting overrun with roaches or hyra. I have been taking my 3rd between 8 and 10, and that push always seems to kill me... sometimes i feel it is map dependent, but really i just want to know when i should be taking my 3rd in order to survive...
-top master protoss You need to be taking your 3rd around the time warp gate finishes (~9:30) and doing a sim-city as fast as possible. At the same time, you should pretty much blindly be throwing down a colossus bay these days and getting 1 colossus asap. From here, make sure your army is positioned either very defensively at your 3rd (relying on your FFE wall for defense of your natural + main) or very aggressively at the top of your natural ramp (or both, if your opponent is splitting units well). As for maps, I feel like you can stand on your natural ramp better on maps like Zerus Prime, Akilon Wastes and Bel'Shir Vestige while maps that have ramps leading into both the main and the natural are better suited for you to position your army defensively at the 3rd (i.e., Whirlwind, Derelict Watcher, Neo Planet S). Sidenote: there's no point to taking a 3rd on Star Station lol. 2-base allin FOR LYFE! Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 17:42 JSK wrote:
In PvT against standard Terran play, is it safe to go Robo - Forge - Forge - Robo Bay - Twilight Council - Gate - Gate - Gate ?
Or what is the optimal order? Do most people get their forges right after their Robo? Does anyone ever get it before? Sometimes I feel like I have a hard time fitting in all of this stuff before the medivacs hit me at 10-11:00. Thanks for the help..
I suppose it might be because I like opening with an early forge (1x forge) and then going 4 sentries as only units until a colossus is out... (be the leaf pvt guide) All responses to this are bad thus far. The timing of your forges and more importantly, your twilight council, depends on how you're planning to play out the midgame. If you are pushing for early double ups, you will get a colossus out on time, but you need to delay getting range and charge. If you go for a single forge + blink, you can have colossus+range up earlier. You can also get double ups into a single colossus without range into templar. All of these tech routes have slightly altered tech paths, but I think your biggest problems are trying to get too much too quickly. You should probably stick with: 1-gate FE into 2/3gates + robo Add 2 gases at your natural + 2 forges Add colossus bay Add twilight council Add 3-4 gateways at 9:00* (I go up to 7 gateways) Chronoboost out a single colossus, start +2/+2 before thermal lance and charge. Once thermal lance and charge finish, you should be perfectly fine to take your 3rd Hope this helps!
Thanks very much. Why 1-gate FE into 2/3gates + robo though, isn't it completely safe to go gate cyber nexus robo gate gate ?
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On May 30 2013 09:13 Salivanth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 02:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On May 30 2013 00:38 Salivanth wrote:
I just had two games where I 7-gate +1 all-ined, and in both of these games, the games involved protracted battles that went on for many minutes.
With this in mind, if I fail to break my opponent with the first couple of waves, but am doing enough damage and not losing units so my push is still very much alive, is it worth it for me to get +1 armor? If you are expanding or reinforcing (with warp prism) behind your All-in, yes. +1 armor can mean the difference between losing units being summoned and them reinforcing the battle at full health. I'm reinforcing via proxy pylon, but I don't expand. Victory or death. I'm just not sure if trading 2 Stalkers for 1-2 Zealots right now is worth an upgrade finishing three minutes later.
Yes, +1 armor definitely is much better if you are using zealots, as the bulk of their health is in HP, unless they open marine/marauder w/ slow (skipping stim) or early mass queen (3-5).
And if you are all inning anyway, you might as well pull probes to do damage and to cut off their ranged units from kiting, such as queens and marines, and if I'm not mistaken, probes get the armor bonus too.
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So you're suggesting that I simultaneously invest money into a second upgrade after +1 weapons, the only purpose of which is to push the game in my favor if the battle lasts for several minutes, and ALSO pull probes, thus ensuring the battle will be won or lost before the upgrade is finished?
I can't see the point in this.
I only do the build in PvZ as well, so the +1 weapons is obviously necessary.
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On May 30 2013 11:49 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 09:13 Salivanth wrote:On May 30 2013 02:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On May 30 2013 00:38 Salivanth wrote:
I just had two games where I 7-gate +1 all-ined, and in both of these games, the games involved protracted battles that went on for many minutes.
With this in mind, if I fail to break my opponent with the first couple of waves, but am doing enough damage and not losing units so my push is still very much alive, is it worth it for me to get +1 armor? If you are expanding or reinforcing (with warp prism) behind your All-in, yes. +1 armor can mean the difference between losing units being summoned and them reinforcing the battle at full health. I'm reinforcing via proxy pylon, but I don't expand. Victory or death. I'm just not sure if trading 2 Stalkers for 1-2 Zealots right now is worth an upgrade finishing three minutes later. Yes, +1 armor definitely is much better if you are using zealots, as the bulk of their health is in HP, unless they open marine/marauder w/ slow (skipping stim) or early mass queen (3-5). And if you are all inning anyway, you might as well pull probes to do damage and to cut off their ranged units from kiting, such as queens and marines, and if I'm not mistaken, probes get the armor bonus too.
I'm sorry but your advice makes little sense. And definitely do not pull probes with your attack, if ur doing a warp gate all in, you only make enough probes to be optimally saturated off 2 bases. It's absolutely not worth pulling probes, it hinders your warp in potential and they contribute very little to an attack (sometimes even hurt ur attack because they get in the way of your zealots)
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United States4883 Posts
On May 30 2013 16:33 Salivanth wrote:
So you're suggesting that I simultaneously invest money into a second upgrade after +1 weapons, the only purpose of which is to push the game in my favor if the battle lasts for several minutes, and ALSO pull probes, thus ensuring the battle will be won or lost before the upgrade is finished?
I can't see the point in this.
I only do the build in PvZ as well, so the +1 weapons is obviously necessary.
On May 30 2013 17:00 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 11:49 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On May 30 2013 09:13 Salivanth wrote:On May 30 2013 02:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On May 30 2013 00:38 Salivanth wrote:
I just had two games where I 7-gate +1 all-ined, and in both of these games, the games involved protracted battles that went on for many minutes.
With this in mind, if I fail to break my opponent with the first couple of waves, but am doing enough damage and not losing units so my push is still very much alive, is it worth it for me to get +1 armor? If you are expanding or reinforcing (with warp prism) behind your All-in, yes. +1 armor can mean the difference between losing units being summoned and them reinforcing the battle at full health. I'm reinforcing via proxy pylon, but I don't expand. Victory or death. I'm just not sure if trading 2 Stalkers for 1-2 Zealots right now is worth an upgrade finishing three minutes later. Yes, +1 armor definitely is much better if you are using zealots, as the bulk of their health is in HP, unless they open marine/marauder w/ slow (skipping stim) or early mass queen (3-5). And if you are all inning anyway, you might as well pull probes to do damage and to cut off their ranged units from kiting, such as queens and marines, and if I'm not mistaken, probes get the armor bonus too. I'm sorry but your advice makes little sense. And definitely do not pull probes with your attack, if ur doing a warp gate all in, you only make enough probes to be optimally saturated off 2 bases. It's absolutely not worth pulling probes, it hinders your warp in potential and they contribute very little to an attack (sometimes even hurt ur attack because they get in the way of your zealots)
Agreed, I have no idea what Hattori was getting at. In my opinion, you shouldn't get +1 armor unless you have extra money lying around. Otherwise, if you macro perfectly and hit your warpins you should be broke most of the time. You don't see pros get +1 armor, so you probably shouldn't be either.
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On May 30 2013 17:00 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 11:49 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On May 30 2013 09:13 Salivanth wrote:On May 30 2013 02:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On May 30 2013 00:38 Salivanth wrote:
I just had two games where I 7-gate +1 all-ined, and in both of these games, the games involved protracted battles that went on for many minutes.
With this in mind, if I fail to break my opponent with the first couple of waves, but am doing enough damage and not losing units so my push is still very much alive, is it worth it for me to get +1 armor? If you are expanding or reinforcing (with warp prism) behind your All-in, yes. +1 armor can mean the difference between losing units being summoned and them reinforcing the battle at full health. I'm reinforcing via proxy pylon, but I don't expand. Victory or death. I'm just not sure if trading 2 Stalkers for 1-2 Zealots right now is worth an upgrade finishing three minutes later. Yes, +1 armor definitely is much better if you are using zealots, as the bulk of their health is in HP, unless they open marine/marauder w/ slow (skipping stim) or early mass queen (3-5). And if you are all inning anyway, you might as well pull probes to do damage and to cut off their ranged units from kiting, such as queens and marines, and if I'm not mistaken, probes get the armor bonus too. I'm sorry but your advice makes little sense. And definitely do not pull probes with your attack, if ur doing a warp gate all in, you only make enough probes to be optimally saturated off 2 bases. It's absolutely not worth pulling probes, it hinders your warp in potential and they contribute very little to an attack (sometimes even hurt ur attack because they get in the way of your zealots)
Sorry I didn't make myself clearer. I got distracted. The probes use is completely different compared to SCV.
The SCV is used to zone enemy units AWAY from the squishy marines. The opposite is true as Protoss.
Use probes to zone enemy units TOWARDS the zealots. That means probes are BEHIND the zealot line flanking to cut off exits as soon as the bulk of the zealot force are up the ramp and probes move in to surround enemy units, abuse their higher movement speed (compared to zealots);
Or preventing the zealots from being surrounded (on follow command vs. Z), instead of probes being in front of the zealot, interfering with zealot pathing.
The style of probes being in front would work if using +1 attack all-in with stalkers, but I'm quite sure It'll miss very essential timings.
I've seen WhiteRa all-in this way before way way back, with probe/stalker. Quite effective, possibly because no one expects Protoss all-ins with probes pulled.
I do agree it is unexplored and likely to remain so given the ease of access to pylon warp-in.
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The thing is, a 7-gate isn't effective because of the initial assault, like Terran all-ins are. The point of a 7-gate isn't to go kill the guy with your 1 zealot 8 stalker force. It's to do some damage, keep your Stalkers alive, warp in 7 more Stalkers, do even more damage, then warp in even MORE units and do even MORE damage and kill them that way. Here's how the build will go.
Pulling probes:
Either I have 1z, 8s, and 34 probes and a delayed-as-shit push, or I have less than 8 Stalkers. I can't make 7 Stalkers after having pulled my probes 30 seconds ago. Let's be generous and say you can pull 20 probes and still warp 7 Stalkers in when your proxy pylon finishes. You can attack with 1z, 8s, and 20p...once.
Not pulling probes:
I go in with 1z 8s, take out what I can. I might lose the Zealot. 40 seconds after the first warp-in, I warp in 7 more Stalkers, and I have 14-15 Stalkers. I now have enough to one-shot roaches. 40 seconds later, I warp in seven MORE units. Now I have a bunch of Zealots to tank, and I still have over a dozen Stalkers. My force is much stronger than it would be if I'd pulled probes, and while my opponent has had more time to build roach/ling to defend, I've been getting free kills for the last two minutes AND my force is significantly larger than it would be otherwise. And I still have the ability to reinforce constantly.
The 7-gate doesn't kill with it's initial burst. It's continual reinforcement power is a large part of what makes it so powerful.
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Please provide us with replays of yourself doing this, hattari. Why would You ever use 2 probes to fight instead of a zealot?
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Italy12246 Posts
What the hell, you aren't supposed to pull probes with an all-in. We aren't freaking Terrans.
From the OP:
- Anyone is allowed to answer. Try to backup your statements with pro game examples whenever possible. However, if you assert something wildly wrong, especially without enough support, you will be warned/banned. If you are unsure of the validity of an idea, just ask a question instead.
- In general this thread is here to help bridge the gap between proven pro level strategies/ideas and the average player, not for you to give your opinion (unless it has very sufficient grounding from pro game evidence).
In other words, don't post wrong advice, which includes "hey i do this at level x and i always win so it must be great!"; that's not the goal for this thread.
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I just faced the same strategy twice in the ladder and it demolished me both times even though I mined a lot more resources than my opponent. How to deal with 3 base voidray, carrier, mothership, zealot? Second game I got maxed with 3 colossus, voidrays, archons and templars and I stood no chance against his army.
Is blink timing the only viable choice or is there something I can do in late game without copying his composition? Maybe I should've sacked the colossae before engaging and replaced them with more voidrays?
ps: High diamond in EU.
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Are there any good vods/replays of Protosses (preferably Koreans) going for the Colossus/Archon/Zealot/Stalker all-in style with +3/+3 upgrades in PvT? I have GOMtv subsription too, so that isn't a problem.
Actually, even benchmarks / order of tech buildings and at which times they're being planted is just as good.
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On May 29 2013 06:09 7mk wrote:
I'm kind of tired of playing standard vs Zerg, so I wanted to ask if theres a guide / description of sOs' dt chargelot double stargate style anywhere?
I'd be very grateful!
Anyone?
Dont wanna get a GSL pass so far into the season
btw SALT (save and load tool) maps have been released on NA server, really nice practicing tool
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United States4883 Posts
On May 30 2013 20:13 Clownz wrote:
I just faced the same strategy twice in the ladder and it demolished me both times even though I mined a lot more resources than my opponent. How to deal with 3 base voidray, carrier, mothership, zealot? Second game I got maxed with 3 colossus, voidrays, archons and templars and I stood no chance against his army.
Is blink timing the only viable choice or is there something I can do in late game without copying his composition? Maybe I should've sacked the colossae before engaging and replaced them with more voidrays?
ps: High diamond in EU.
The best lategame PvP army right now is archon/templar/tempest (+ chargelots to fill up supply). Blanket storms + archon DPS should make short work of anything on the ground and void rays. 6 tempests 1-shot carriers (2-shot a Mothership). As far as I can tell, you had all the right ingredients except you made void rays instead of tempests.
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Can anyone share what they're doing that's successful in PvZ right now? I'm low Masters and getting demolished and it feels like nothing I do works.
Here's the most successful game I've had in weeks: http://ggtracker.com/matches/3360834 and my most consistent practice partner never falls for the same kind of mind games that I attempt to pull here. In fact he tends to just crush me regardless of what he's doing, even just by going for a Roach max like it's 2012 and WoL, as in this game: http://ggtracker.com/matches/3332788
Perhaps it's just a symptom of me losing so much but I'm starting to feel like the Protoss player has to play significantly smarter/better than the Zerg to win.
Against a competent Zerg who knows how to tech switch and cover their bases with static defence it seems as if you simply cannot choose a tech path, because they can choose to counter it perfectly, forcing an extreme response into a army the Zerg can easily counter (like someone switching between Mutas and Ultras). Someone please help, I'm utterly lost in this matchup, and I don't know what to do. I don't particularly want to all-in/hit pre-hive timings etc, but I will if I have to.
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Is there a way to safely go blink all-in in PvT nowadays with the popularity of reaper openings? It seems like it's too easy for the terran to pull back to his main if he scouts it properly.
I wonder if it's just better to go msc expand with a very fast twilight and to a 2 base blink all-in timing. You need a robo to be safe against widow mines too, so that's a lot of investment. 1 base blink seems a bit too gimmicky. Does anybody know if 2 base blink works? I wanted to try something like this, but it seems like the push may be a bit too late to do any significant damage.
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On May 31 2013 10:32 Xaeldaren wrote:Can anyone share what they're doing that's successful in PvZ right now? I'm low Masters and getting demolished and it feels like nothing I do works. Here's the most successful game I've had in weeks: http://ggtracker.com/matches/3360834 and my most consistent practice partner never falls for the same kind of mind games that I attempt to pull here. In fact he tends to just crush me regardless of what he's doing, even just by going for a Roach max like it's 2012 and WoL, as in this game: http://ggtracker.com/matches/3332788Perhaps it's just a symptom of me losing so much but I'm starting to feel like the Protoss player has to play significantly smarter/better than the Zerg to win. Against a competent Zerg who knows how to tech switch and cover their bases with static defence it seems as if you simply cannot choose a tech path, because they can choose to counter it perfectly, forcing an extreme response into a army the Zerg can easily counter (like someone switching between Mutas and Ultras). Someone please help, I'm utterly lost in this matchup, and I don't know what to do. I don't particularly want to all-in/hit pre-hive timings etc, but I will if I have to.
Welcome to the club. There was a discussion about this on Meta the other day. Not PvZ exactly, but the lack of go-to builds and solid, long term macro play for protoss. Unfortunately, it revolves around gimmicks way too much at the moment. We had a whole bunch of timings that have already been figured out, but protoss is still too build-order dependent - PvT being the only exception. I'm kinda sick of so much inconsistency, to the point it feels like I should have chosen terran and that I would be a stronger player at the moment if I had done so.
When you try to dictate the timings, it feels like zerg has the upper hand with good scouting. But if you try to play reactionary yourself, they still have the upper hand, because with 1 extra building they can go for some pretty sick tech switches. Although at lower levels it may be easier to spam zealots and harass the zerg, a good zerg that gets a decent amount of static defense kind neutralizes this style as well.
Late game zerg compositions look pretty sick as usual. Did you watch Soulkey vs JangBi? If anything, JangBi was pretty lucky to win that game. I'm not sure if super late game PvZ is a favorable situation for us to be in anymore - though it's not like it was ever favorable anyway.
I wish there would be a way to change this, but I don't see it getting any better anytime soon, if ever. It's a rough road I guess. Back to trying to be helpful though, if you want to learn how to play a solid macro game, you should probably watch Rain's vods from proleague. Maybe you will find some good ideas and actually figure out what's missing in your play. Good luck! http://www.youtube.com/user/ESportsTV/videos
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On May 31 2013 10:39 vhapter wrote:
Is there a way to safely go blink all-in in PvT nowadays with the popularity of reaper openings? It seems like it's too easy for the terran to pull back to his main if he scouts it properly.
I wonder if it's just better to go msc expand with a very fast twilight and to a 2 base blink all-in timing. You need a robo to be safe against widow mines too, so that's a lot of investment. 1 base blink seems a bit too gimmicky. Does anybody know if 2 base blink works? I wanted to try something like this, but it seems like the push may be a bit too late to do any significant damage.
I haven't seem a 2-base blink all in against Terran in pro games since probably 2010. Feel free to look in hellokitty's replay pack though. The strength of blink builds is to hit before Terran has tech, so delaying your timing doesn't make much sense.
The popularity of reaper openings do make all 1-base protoss play even more gimmicky because of increased scouting, that's just the metagame this days.
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United States4883 Posts
On May 31 2013 10:32 Xaeldaren wrote:Can anyone share what they're doing that's successful in PvZ right now? I'm low Masters and getting demolished and it feels like nothing I do works. Here's the most successful game I've had in weeks: http://ggtracker.com/matches/3360834 and my most consistent practice partner never falls for the same kind of mind games that I attempt to pull here. In fact he tends to just crush me regardless of what he's doing, even just by going for a Roach max like it's 2012 and WoL, as in this game: http://ggtracker.com/matches/3332788Perhaps it's just a symptom of me losing so much but I'm starting to feel like the Protoss player has to play significantly smarter/better than the Zerg to win. Against a competent Zerg who knows how to tech switch and cover their bases with static defence it seems as if you simply cannot choose a tech path, because they can choose to counter it perfectly, forcing an extreme response into a army the Zerg can easily counter (like someone switching between Mutas and Ultras). Someone please help, I'm utterly lost in this matchup, and I don't know what to do. I don't particularly want to all-in/hit pre-hive timings etc, but I will if I have to.
Game 1 looks really good in a lot of ways. Not a huge fan of the cancelling nexus trick, but that's beside the point. The one thing that you're really failing hard at is scouting. You never scout that he even has a 3rd nexus, and you get ZERO observers, which makes you super susceptible to roach all-ins, nydus/drop plays, muta switches, swarm host contains, etc., etc. You really need to be more on top of scouting, whether it's being more active with your initial probe scout, being more active with your phoenix, doing hallucination scouts, getting observers, etc. YOU NEED TO DO IT.
Game 2, you still have a lot of scouting problems. Again, you never even scout to see if he gets a 3rd base, and then you die to a roach attack that you don't see until the roaches are AT YOUR THIRD. If you had a probe at that watchtower and kept your phoenixes doing more intelligent movement, you would have spotted that WAY early. Blink + colossus den are late; even if you held the initial roach pressure, you're likely to just die to a follow-up attack. Again, no observers. In your defense, however, Star Station is the most difficult map in the map pool to take a 3rd on. Gate expands and 2-base all-ins are a lot stronger compared to FFE macro games.
Overall, you just need to scout a lot more and get more vision. Also, with the build you do, I strongly believe that you need to expand like a minute earlier (~8:30). You build the blind immortal so you don't die to a roach attack, then you should be moving over to your 3rd and building 2-3 observers and getting a faster colossus den. With the help of the MsC, you should be able to hold this on most maps (probably not on Star Station).
Specific tips on observers: Make sure the first observer goes along the path your opponent will attack from (this will help you spot early attacks) and go directly to the main base. You want to avoid spore crawlers and try to get a peek of what your opponent's tech is then place your observer so it can see the timing of the hive. The second observer should try to find your opponent's rally point (or you can just place this in between the natural and the 3rd, which is the most common rally spot). The 3rd observer can help with getting vision of attack paths (for instance, sitting outside your 3rd on Daybreak so you know whether to move to your 3rd or natural to defend).
EDIT: As you go into the later stages of the game, you need to stray away from the old colossus/stalker/sentry army that was common in WoL and gravitate more towards immortal/archon with sprinklings of colossus, stalkers, and zealots based on what you scout.
Hope this helps!
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