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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
On May 30 2013 22:24 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:
Are there any good vods/replays of Protosses (preferably Koreans) going for the Colossus/Archon/Zealot/Stalker all-in style with +3/+3 upgrades in PvT? I have GOMtv subsription too, so that isn't a problem.
Actually, even benchmarks / order of tech buildings and at which times they're being planted is just as good.
Parting vs. Last, game 2, Ro32 Code S. That said, he does it off a slightly non-standard opener, getting 2-gate robo instead of 3-gate robo after his expansion.
EDITED: It's actually game 2, not game 1. Same series though.
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On May 31 2013 12:24 Salivanth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 22:24 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:
Are there any good vods/replays of Protosses (preferably Koreans) going for the Colossus/Archon/Zealot/Stalker all-in style with +3/+3 upgrades in PvT? I have GOMtv subsription too, so that isn't a problem.
Actually, even benchmarks / order of tech buildings and at which times they're being planted is just as good. Parting vs. Last, game 2, Ro32 Code S. That said, he does it off a slightly non-standard opener, getting 2-gate robo instead of 3-gate robo after his expansion. EDITED: It's actually game 2, not game 1. Same series though.
Thanks a lot. I appreciate it.  I will study the game and write up something on it, I think. I remember seeing the game but didn't remember who played it and what match it was.
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I have a clan tournament tomorrow, and I'm awful vs. Mutalisks. I've already been practicing the 7-gate +1 all-in which hits before Mutas can possibly be out, but the tournament is Bo3's, and I don't want to rely on the same all-in twice. Is there another all-in I can learn that:
A) Hits before Mutalisks can be out.
B) Can be done off a Forge Fast Expand.
C) Isn't so similar to the 7-gate that the same response can kill it?
I'm guessing this probably isn't a thing, given that Roach/Ling is the response to 7-gate and if anything other than Roach/Ling is an option to stop All-In X, that means they must be able to get Lair tech up vs. All-In X. But I figured I'd ask anyway. The 2 Immortal 2 Colossus timing seems to be vulnerable to a Mutalisk base trade, so I was hoping for a faster all-in than that.
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On May 31 2013 15:23 Salivanth wrote:
I have a clan tournament tomorrow, and I'm awful vs. Mutalisks. I've already been practicing the 7-gate +1 all-in which hits before Mutas can possibly be out, but the tournament is Bo3's, and I don't want to rely on the same all-in twice. Is there another all-in I can learn that:
A) Hits before Mutalisks can be out.
B) Can be done off a Forge Fast Expand.
C) Isn't so similar to the 7-gate that the same response can kill it?
I'm guessing this probably isn't a thing, given that Roach/Ling is the response to 7-gate and if anything other than Roach/Ling is an option to stop All-In X, that means they must be able to get Lair tech up vs. All-In X. But I figured I'd ask anyway. The 2 Immortal 2 Colossus timing seems to be vulnerable to a Mutalisk base trade, so I was hoping for a faster all-in than that.
You could do a FFE all in one game, and then a faster timing all in the second game off of a 1 gate expand, like the Nani-wa immortal/zealot build.
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The only thing I can come up with is 3 SG Void Ray allin. Basically skip WG research, get 3 Stargates, push out with 5-6 Voids. Better on close air positions, but still awful. Wins me games every now and then though because it's so bad nobody does it and Zergs don't know how to respond properly. I wouldn't recommend putting your tournament life on it though, but if you really want to just allin with a FFE (why? Just go gate expo and man train!), that'd be one of the only choices, and even then a quick spire could potentially overrun it.
sorry for wall of text, typing on my phone.
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United States4883 Posts
On May 31 2013 15:23 Salivanth wrote:
I have a clan tournament tomorrow, and I'm awful vs. Mutalisks. I've already been practicing the 7-gate +1 all-in which hits before Mutas can possibly be out, but the tournament is Bo3's, and I don't want to rely on the same all-in twice. Is there another all-in I can learn that:
A) Hits before Mutalisks can be out.
B) Can be done off a Forge Fast Expand.
C) Isn't so similar to the 7-gate that the same response can kill it?
I'm guessing this probably isn't a thing, given that Roach/Ling is the response to 7-gate and if anything other than Roach/Ling is an option to stop All-In X, that means they must be able to get Lair tech up vs. All-In X. But I figured I'd ask anyway. The 2 Immortal 2 Colossus timing seems to be vulnerable to a Mutalisk base trade, so I was hoping for a faster all-in than that.
Only decent ones that I feel like you can get away with are just sentry/immortal all-in or +2 blink all-in. Well-executed, both of those hit before 10:00, although the blink all-in has been nerfed substationally with the increase of blink research.... Otherwise, you can try some kind of void ray 7-gate all-in, but you'd have to be REALLY REALLY good about hiding the void rays.
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On May 31 2013 15:34 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:
The only thing I can come up with is 3 SG Void Ray allin. Basically skip WG research, get 3 Stargates, push out with 5-6 Voids. Better on close air positions, but still awful. Wins me games every now and then though because it's so bad nobody does it and Zergs don't know how to respond properly. I wouldn't recommend putting your tournament life on it though, but if you really want to just allin with a FFE (why? Just go gate expo and man train!), that'd be one of the only choices, and even then a quick spire could potentially overrun it.
sorry for wall of text, typing on my phone.
The reason I'm unwilling to do the man train is because it's so map dependent, due to the nature of the wall-off...and if I selected Neo Planet S as my map, it'd be obvious what I was doing. Why the hell else would I pick that map? If my opponent picks the map I could go for it, but that's unlikely, meaning it's not a good use of my practice time.
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On May 31 2013 15:23 Salivanth wrote:
I have a clan tournament tomorrow, and I'm awful vs. Mutalisks. I've already been practicing the 7-gate +1 all-in which hits before Mutas can possibly be out, but the tournament is Bo3's, and I don't want to rely on the same all-in twice. Is there another all-in I can learn that:
A) Hits before Mutalisks can be out.
B) Can be done off a Forge Fast Expand.
C) Isn't so similar to the 7-gate that the same response can kill it?
I'm guessing this probably isn't a thing, given that Roach/Ling is the response to 7-gate and if anything other than Roach/Ling is an option to stop All-In X, that means they must be able to get Lair tech up vs. All-In X. But I figured I'd ask anyway. The 2 Immortal 2 Colossus timing seems to be vulnerable to a Mutalisk base trade, so I was hoping for a faster all-in than that.
How about a +1 5 gate into DT's :D
standard forge expo
+1 atk just as your cycore finishes
zealot + stalker to go poke
around 6:20 you build a twilight council
After that you cut probes and add 4 more gateways
double gas in nat after gates, resume probes up 44
DT shrine after twilight council
hit at 8:30 with +1 zealots, DT shrine should finish by the 2nd or 3rd warp in. Warp in 4-5 dt's and split them up between the bases, you can focus the third base hatchery but main and nat you should be shift clicking drones.
If the zerg doesnt leave after you've killed 30 of his drones you can try to follow up with +2 blink timing or take a third and macro or w.e else floats your boat.
This is an all-in designed for noobs (mid masters and below is essentially guaranteed to do massive damage assuming you execute right) if scouted you may have a hard time... but that should be a given. so make sure you hide your dark shrine somewhere nice and sneaky.
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I like it. I like it a lot. It definitely seems like a good "Fuck it, you're better than I am so let's take a gamble" build, which is exactly what I need tomorrow. I'll have to practice it a bit, but it should do very well. I like the follow-up blink timing too. What are some good places to hide the Shrine in general?
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Austria24422 Posts
On May 31 2013 16:12 Salivanth wrote:
I like it. I like it a lot. It definitely seems like a good "Fuck it, you're better than I am so let's take a gamble" build, which is exactly what I need tomorrow. I'll have to practice it a bit, but it should do very well. I like the follow-up blink timing too. What are some good places to hide the Shrine in general?
On Planet S for example you can hide tech on the cliff above your natural and it shouldn't be scouted if you deny overlord scouts well.
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Zerg will not vetoing whirlwind so i'd try this cool build with 5 gate dt on it. Zerg favored map, so give them something to cry on.
Then it depends on vetoes. Naniwa "manly allin" is good on neo and IMO star station cause you can hide tech well here and wallin is fast to do.
Other than that, if he just rushes mutas, go +1 4gate harass, i've seen zergs in mid masters skipping roach warren just to be greedier. It's insta-lose in that case.
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Interesting idea. As an all-in that's minimally reliant on travel time I already have the 7-gate planned for Whirlwind/Zerus, but the 5-gate DT build would work just as well. If I were to +1 4-gate harass, what would be a good (all-in if possible) follow-up? (It's also a bit too close to the +1 5-gate that the DT build opens with, but I'm taking all ideas here.)
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Austria24422 Posts
On May 31 2013 16:36 Salivanth wrote:
Interesting idea. As an all-in that's minimally reliant on travel time I already have the 7-gate planned for Whirlwind/Zerus, but the 5-gate DT build would work just as well. If I were to +1 4-gate harass, what would be a good (all-in if possible) follow-up? (It's also a bit too close to the +1 5-gate that the DT build opens with, but I'm taking all ideas here.)
Well, you can very smoothly transition into something like say a +2 blink all in (old school, MC used to do this a lot) or an immortal/sentry followup. In WoL, zergs would rely on infestor tech to beat the blink followup I think and nobody does that in HotS anymore so I do think this build is still viable. Besides, stalkers with good micro and +2 attack trade very well against roaches and decently against hydras. Remember that you can very easily tech behind a +1 4gate so just get your tech down in time and then basically transition from one attack straight into another without delay.
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Hmm. Maybe I should do the +1 4-gate into +2 blink all-in, and go for a +1 4-gate with the DT's, throwing Gate 5 down with the Dark Shrine. That way, both builds would look exactly the same. It'd be SO effective if I did the Blink all-in first. I could deliberately show the Twilight Council next time, and my opponent would never see DT's coming. If he was good, he'd identify the +1 4-gate, and he'd scout the Twilight Council, and it'd look like the exact same build. Then, surprise! Dark Templar. I could proxy the Dark Shrine too if I had to. With the +1 4-gate, almost no Zerg would be sending lings out to scout for proxies when there's a couple of proxy pylons RIGHT THERE warping in +1 zealots.
I'm really liking this idea now.
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Italy12246 Posts
For what it's worth, gateway pressure>>DT builds if done right are basically unstoppable if your opponents are not high master (ish) because people just have god awful mechanics and can't scout to save their lives. It's also one of my go-to bullshit builds for cw's if i want to scare the hell out of people.
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Austria24422 Posts
On May 31 2013 17:55 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 15:23 Salivanth wrote:
I have a clan tournament tomorrow, and I'm awful vs. Mutalisks. I've already been practicing the 7-gate +1 all-in which hits before Mutas can possibly be out, but the tournament is Bo3's, and I don't want to rely on the same all-in twice. Is there another all-in I can learn that:
A) Hits before Mutalisks can be out.
B) Can be done off a Forge Fast Expand.
C) Isn't so similar to the 7-gate that the same response can kill it?
I'm guessing this probably isn't a thing, given that Roach/Ling is the response to 7-gate and if anything other than Roach/Ling is an option to stop All-In X, that means they must be able to get Lair tech up vs. All-In X. But I figured I'd ask anyway. The 2 Immortal 2 Colossus timing seems to be vulnerable to a Mutalisk base trade, so I was hoping for a faster all-in than that. You could always work a mass Void Ray -> Skytoss/Templar build out. It's good vs. most things, and has the infrastructure for dealing with Mutalisks built into it. Artosis was using such a build on his stream quite a bit, but I can't remember exactly which pro player he was copying from. Maybe someone with a more photographic memory will remember...
Alicia.
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On May 31 2013 17:56 Teoita wrote:
For what it's worth, gateway pressure>>DT builds if done right are basically unstoppable if your opponents are not high master (ish) because people just have god awful mechanics and can't scout to save their lives. It's also one of my go-to bullshit builds for cw's if i want to scare the hell out of people.
Haha, i've been doing the same thing and it's hilarious how many wins you can get. I'm not sure whether it's a good build or not, but it's quite unforgiving for zerg. They really need to be on top of their scouting or they will almost always take game-losing damage to the DTs.
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On May 31 2013 18:00 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 17:55 Sated wrote:On May 31 2013 15:23 Salivanth wrote:
I have a clan tournament tomorrow, and I'm awful vs. Mutalisks. I've already been practicing the 7-gate +1 all-in which hits before Mutas can possibly be out, but the tournament is Bo3's, and I don't want to rely on the same all-in twice. Is there another all-in I can learn that:
A) Hits before Mutalisks can be out.
B) Can be done off a Forge Fast Expand.
C) Isn't so similar to the 7-gate that the same response can kill it?
I'm guessing this probably isn't a thing, given that Roach/Ling is the response to 7-gate and if anything other than Roach/Ling is an option to stop All-In X, that means they must be able to get Lair tech up vs. All-In X. But I figured I'd ask anyway. The 2 Immortal 2 Colossus timing seems to be vulnerable to a Mutalisk base trade, so I was hoping for a faster all-in than that. You could always work a mass Void Ray -> Skytoss/Templar build out. It's good vs. most things, and has the infrastructure for dealing with Mutalisks built into it. Artosis was using such a build on his stream quite a bit, but I can't remember exactly which pro player he was copying from. Maybe someone with a more photographic memory will remember... Alicia.
Or Crank. Both axiom tosses go for the same builds a lot of the time
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Austria24422 Posts
On May 31 2013 18:18 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 18:00 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 31 2013 17:55 Sated wrote:On May 31 2013 15:23 Salivanth wrote:
I have a clan tournament tomorrow, and I'm awful vs. Mutalisks. I've already been practicing the 7-gate +1 all-in which hits before Mutas can possibly be out, but the tournament is Bo3's, and I don't want to rely on the same all-in twice. Is there another all-in I can learn that:
A) Hits before Mutalisks can be out.
B) Can be done off a Forge Fast Expand.
C) Isn't so similar to the 7-gate that the same response can kill it?
I'm guessing this probably isn't a thing, given that Roach/Ling is the response to 7-gate and if anything other than Roach/Ling is an option to stop All-In X, that means they must be able to get Lair tech up vs. All-In X. But I figured I'd ask anyway. The 2 Immortal 2 Colossus timing seems to be vulnerable to a Mutalisk base trade, so I was hoping for a faster all-in than that. You could always work a mass Void Ray -> Skytoss/Templar build out. It's good vs. most things, and has the infrastructure for dealing with Mutalisks built into it. Artosis was using such a build on his stream quite a bit, but I can't remember exactly which pro player he was copying from. Maybe someone with a more photographic memory will remember... Alicia. Or Crank. Both axiom tosses go for the same builds a lot of the time
True but Artosis said he was copying Alicia's skytoss build. Not surprising though that they both do it.
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EPT
