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On June 01 2013 00:38 ThyLastPenguin wrote:
Okay, I got 2 questions.
First question is about hotkeys (I know it's preference, but I wanna hear what you guys do anyways). In a scenario where you have HTs, a main army and a momma core, do you hotkey the mothership core to your main army or to a seperate one?
I keep mine seperate, but it seems that I always forget about it and it ends up just being a waste of supply for me, but I can imagine that if it's in my main army I could be slow on hitting FFs or Guardian Shields on my sentries (something I seem to forget anyways, so much to learn in this game -_-).
My main issue is that (I use the core hotkeys, so I've changed it into standard so it makes more sense) I find it annoying to go 1 (Main army) - Amove; 2 (HTs) - move; 3 (MC) - move; 4 (Secondary army/harrass/whatever) - Amove.
I just feel that is a lot of work and end up forgetting - just want to know people's opinions on how to hotkey the MC.
2nd question - I hear alot about spreading HTs across the map in PvT, I was just wondering if people could give me some examples of how/when to do this? I've done it once in a single game, where I could predict that the enemy was likely to go through a certain choke and just put a HT there, ready. I still lost that game though (Mine drops with no detection = sad protoss for the rest of that game) so I don't know how effective it really was.
Basically, any examples in VODs or just hypothetical scenarios (I can actually imagine that if someone could draw dots with paint on a map that'd help me, but I'm not sure if I'm asking too much here :p) of when to put HTs on the map.
High Diamond player, btw.
Thanks in advance <3
I'm Diamond as well, so maybe my advice will be helpful:
I used to be all about hotkeying everything armywise, but lately i've realized it can slow you down. You can always click on your MSC during a battle and spam a few time warps. So I am one of the people who has it on move command over a colossus. If you want you can hotkey it to a side mouse button or something but you don't need to attack move with it.
Regarding HT's, I always hotkey them separately, but I try not to put more than 3 in one group simply because of EMPs. I put one in my main asap so it can began to gather energy for a storm in case of drops.
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@ThyLastPenguin
-The optimal way of doing it is controlling your MsCore separately, in a different control group. If you have the speed to do it, then it's all fine. If you find yourself slowed down by it too much, then there isn't really much to say - you're forced to have it in the same control group as your main army. Personally, I just put the MsCore on a different hotkey and then have it follow one of my units, usually a collosus, when I move out to attack; that way I don't have to move it around individually, and can quickly select it during any engagement to micro it properly.
-You should start spreading HT's when you're at 3+ bases, with an already established economy and resources to spare. If putting HT's around will cut significantly into your army, then you shouldn't do it.
About how to do it, you normally want 1 HT in each of your bases (along with some cannons maybe) to defend any possible drops or w/e, and some placed out in the map, preferable in ramps/bushes/choke points. The goal of these HT's placed out in the map is to storm passing armies or feedback medivacs/ghosts. This is especially effective when coupled with constant counter attacks and runbys, as his attention will be split and he will most likely take a very ugly storm or take additional damage from your counterattacks, depending where he devotes his attention.
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seriously i dont know where to ask, so i am protoss and i guess that's a thread that should help me so i ask here:
the normal ladder station has all spawning positions enabled is it right?
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Italy12248 Posts
It was changed to cross only recently.
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On June 01 2013 19:49 Undead1993 wrote:
seriously i dont know where to ask, so i am protoss and i guess that's a thread that should help me so i ask here:
the normal ladder station has all spawning positions enabled is it right?
I wouldn't mind answering, but there is a thread for simple question. This is a protoss help me thread. You should use that thread for things not specifically related to protoss.
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On June 01 2013 19:51 Teoita wrote:
It was changed to cross only recently.
oh ok ty i thought i got hacked like 3 games in a row :D
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Couldn't find it via google. Is there a guide to the Protoss blink pressure after expansion (twilight before nexus I think) build against Terran? I am Terran myself and would like to see how it gets set up and work on counters against it.
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Italy12248 Posts
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Austria24422 Posts
I think what he's talking about is the build HerO did against Lucifron in their ATC ace match but that's a twilight council after expand. I think you put down the TC around the time you'd usually get a robo and go straight for blink + 3/4 more gates to put on pressure.
HerO does this a lot on stream, he goes into storm from there. It's a weird composition of blink/templar but it actually works really well if you have good control and you're able to snipe bio units when they're out on the map. Plus it's obviously amazing against drop harass.
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Yeah I'm talking about the style HerO does use but I'm not exactly sure if it hits very early. I think its twilight either before or right after the second nexus to have blink as fast as possible and the additional gateways after so you can really pressure Terran and blink into his main for example.
Will check out HerOs stream and yeah, he's using kind of such a style vs LucifroN but in a more defensive and not too aggressiv way.  Thanks
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On June 01 2013 23:44 Type|NarutO wrote:Yeah I'm talking about the style HerO does use but I'm not exactly sure if it hits very early. I think its twilight either before or right after the second nexus to have blink as fast as possible and the additional gateways after so you can really pressure Terran and blink into his main for example. Will check out HerOs stream and yeah, he's using kind of such a style vs LucifroN but in a more defensive and not too aggressiv way. Thanks
The main problem from all I've seen is that you can't have that many stalkers before stim finishes. Since most chronos go on probes when you do a 2 base strategy, blink finishes later too. But if you want to figure out the timings, I'd say try the DT drop build but research blink instead. You can spam chrono boosts on probes, msc expand (23 supply, before third pylon), then go twilight (possibly --> robo for observers) and then stalker and add gateways as resources allow.
A truly good version of this build would probably require msc scouting or something along those lines, as getting a robo just in case the terran does a widow mine drop is pretty bad for agressive blink play. I'm pretty sure a forge + msc or hallucination scouting (the sentry must be started before getting the nexus though) would also do the job against these very early medivac timings (though hallucination scouting would suck against gas first because it would hit much earlier than the protoss could react). Of course, you can also go for an unsafe version of 2 base blink that would totally skip cannons or observers, just to see how you have to react against the riskiest/greediest all-in possible.
As you can see, a 2 base blink all-in timing would have the following cons - delayed blink, less stalkers, and vulnerability to widow mines. I'd love to try out a 2 base blink build, but I'm skeptical of its useful as of now. Maybe it's doable in a BoX against a terran player who you wouldn't expect to go for a widow mine drop, so you could blindly skip detection.
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Italy12248 Posts
What naruto is talking about is harassment, not an all-in.
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On June 02 2013 01:54 Teoita wrote:
What naruto is talking about is harassment, not an all-in.
So getting an early forge or robo is "ok". A very early 2-base blink timing would probably finish at 8:00 without any chronos, assuming the protoss goes msc --> nexus --> twilight at 4:20. I think getting blink any earlier than this would be a little nuts and detrimental to the harassment itself, because you can't have a good amount of blink stalkers earlier than that if you're going 2 base.
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Speaking of harassment, I'm having a hard time figuring out how to do that well as Protoss in the early-ish game. I feel like I know what options are available to me, but they all seem to require so much of a commitment to make them work. I feel like I either spend too much money on the harassment, or invest too much into a tech path I don't want for my macro game.
Take PvT as an example. I one gate expand into robo, gates, double forge, etc. Think "standard" for the sake or argument. I never get a Stargate and I usually get a Dark Shrine late in the game. I do get blink, but not fast enough to put any sort of pressure on with it.
On the flip side, in PvZ I open Stargate for Phoenix. This does all me to harass, however, I'm having problems against a roach/hydra/corruptor push Zerg does around 13-15 minutes. I never seem to have enough of what I need to defend that push. However, if I open Robo/TC, I can always hold any ground push from the Zerg while getting up my third without issue... I just die to Mutas.
Or, PvZ you are doing 4 gate pressure. How many resources do you spend on warp ins? It's not like you just work with what you brought, you continue to reenforce directly. The ability that makes our all-ins so strong really blurs the line on harass for me.
Does anyone have any tips or general advice? I would love to be able to put on some pressure while not weakening my macro game too much.
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Italy12248 Posts
You can get a warp prism out to harass with zealots in pvt. I'd recommend watching sos' games from this gsl in the group stages, as well as flash vs parting, to have a rough idea of the builds.
The push you are talking about in pvz should be holdable with good execution, but on some maps it's really hard. Honestly, on maps like Planet S and Star Station i just 2base because holding a third vs any lair bust is so so hard.
If you are 4gating zerg you should keep warping in until he either a) has roaches or b) has an overwhelming amount of lings, ie, your zealots die before the reinforces can join them.
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The most harassment-oriented macro build I've seen in PvT - aside from the dt drop build - was indeed chargelot + templar tech and counter dropping the terran. Since you're not worried about getting colossi out, getting a warp prism is prety good use of your robo tech. I haven't tried this style yet, but it looks really strong. Pretty entertaining too if you ask me. ^_^
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Italy12248 Posts
It's my go to build atm and it fucking rocks. It's basically an update on Parting's WoL build, and I FUCKING LOVE IT. Turned PvT from my worst to best matchup, which it's never been since 2010.
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On June 02 2013 02:40 Teoita wrote:
It's my go to build atm and it fucking rocks. It's basically an update on Parting's WoL build, and I FUCKING LOVE IT. Turned PvT from my worst to best matchup, which it's never been since 2010.
Wow, you must be crazy good at PvZ and coinfliPvP. PvT is the easiest protoss matchup imo. It was my best matchup in WoL by far. It was my worst matchup when HOTS came out, so many new timings and things to account for. After watching Tails's stream, I found a solid PvT build order and it became my best matchup once again.
I wish there was such a magic build for PvZ. It's just too hard to play a straightforward game against zerg. 
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Italy12248 Posts
PvP has always shifted between my worse and middle matchup. I was ok at it at the end of WoL tho. PvZ has been my best since i first started.
That said, when i'm frustrated in PvZ (which is really often lol) i just rely on really straightforward and well executed 2base timings (read: i'm a cheesy asshole for a while after losing to mutas).
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On June 02 2013 03:07 Teoita wrote:
PvP has always shifted between my worse and middle matchup. I was ok at it at the end of WoL tho. PvZ has been my best since i first started.
That said, when i'm frustrated in PvZ (which is really often lol) i just rely on really straightforward and well executed 2base timings (read: i'm a cheesy asshole for a while after losing to mutas).
Although you may have mentioned this somewhere in this thread, what two base timings do you use? I'm so frustrated with PvZ right now I'm not playing. I'm thinking I should just learn a two base all-in, win or lose, and move on to my next match. At the very least I'll feel confident to start playing again instead of practicing PvZ BOs.
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EPT
