EPTStargate>2colo 2 immortal
Robo>2colo 2 immortal
Soultrain
4Gate into DT (aka The Tasteless Build)
4Gate into Soultrain
Off Gateway FE:
7gate
4gate into DT (aka The Tasteless Build 2.0)
Man train
The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 110
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Stargate>2colo 2 immortal Robo>2colo 2 immortal Soultrain 4Gate into DT (aka The Tasteless Build) 4Gate into Soultrain Off Gateway FE: 7gate 4gate into DT (aka The Tasteless Build 2.0) Man train | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
The funny thing is, even though I'm only a diamond player, the only terran who actually stopped this push with a straight up 1 rax cc was actually Major. He was rank 3 back then, I have no idea how we ended up playing each other. I wonder if this strategy still works in PvT. I think people don't realize this build only requires single gas and think it's a regular 4 gate. Does anyone else have any experience at high level with this strategy? Major said this strategy was pretty easy to beat. But then again, that was only him (-.-). I've always wondered if this strategy was actually bad after he told me that, or if I could keep it as a special trick up my sleeve even against high level opponents. EDIT On June 02 2013 03:17 Teoita wrote: Off FFE: Stargate>2colo 2 immortal Robo>2colo 2 immortal Soultrain 4Gate into DT 4Gate into Soultrain Off Gateway FE: 7gate 4gate into DT Man train What happens with this build against mutas? Doesn't it involve mostly zealots? I remember holding off a baneling bust once and transitioning into this push. I thought I was so ahead, and then after taking down his third, and ran into a wall of spine crawlers and mutas. My timing was probably sloppy, but I dunnno... | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
edit: all those builds hit before 3base muta comes out. Against 2basing zergs with ffe i do a defensive robo or stargate build, and if gateway expand i say FUCK IT and 7gate. | ||
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shiftY803
200 Posts
How do you all feel about that? I've used it a few times since then, and it is effective. However, I feel like I never see this in high-level play. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
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shiftY803
200 Posts
On June 02 2013 06:26 blooblooblahblah wrote: You only don't see cannon rush at high lvl play that much because it's much more common to just go nexus first or a gateway expand. Cannon rushing a hatch first when you open forge first is a viable strategy at any level (You can watch the terrible sOs vs soulkey series to see some pro lvl cannon rushing against hatch first) Thanks guys, good advice. Along those lines, NonY seems to do the 1-gate expand against zerg but I just do not see the advantage. Why not just Nexus first, or even FFE? Obviously he knows what he is doing, so what is the plan with that type of build? I rarely see him get useful aggression out of it. | ||
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
On June 02 2013 07:36 shiftY803 wrote: Thanks guys, good advice. Along those lines, NonY seems to do the 1-gate expand against zerg but I just do not see the advantage. Why not just Nexus first, or even FFE? Obviously he knows what he is doing, so what is the plan with that type of build? I rarely see him get useful aggression out of it. Advantage of gateway expand is faster tech/aggression. You get a slower nexus but limit Zerg's ability to drone/expand as freely as if you had FFE'd. You can get warpgate timing about as fast as if you were 1basing | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Also, Zergs generally suck balls vs gateway FE so it's easy for them to go into a suboptimal response because of how uncofortable they feel, and end up in a worse spot than they would be vs FFE | ||
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mamaDrone
Sweden43 Posts
http://drop.sc/339732 ^ Is a game I very recently played, and I believe it's my worst PvP-game so far - but fact remains, my PvPs usually have a similar outcome. Me being too aggressive, overextending and completely messing things up. I know roughly what went wrong in that game (some mismicro, lack of scouting but more importantly - horrible decisionmaking). I shouldnt have blinked in the second time, I should've controlled my MSC better and I should've put down a Robo far, far earlier. Instead of putting on aggression the second time I should've expanded/double expanded and played it safe with Immortals/Colossus as he did not go for any Stargate-play. I've had most success with a 1g expand -> few sentries + robo but I continously try out new builds and trying to find something I'm comfortable with. Any insight would be highly appreciated! | ||
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FLUFFYPenguin
Finland25 Posts
I love how the army is so incredibly beefy and feels like it's hard to stop for the Terran. I've uploaded a video of me executing this build decently. Apart from a few supply blocks (almost died at 10 minutes because a Colossus was supply blocked for god knows how long lol) and losing 2 Probes to a Reaper I think I played fairly well for my level. http://drop.sc/339733 As for adjustments on that game I really should grab the Observer that's in his base to below my 3rd to spot for drops when I take the 3rd. The Robo should also be further back in the main to prevent it being sniped, as it is probably the single most important building in this build. I built too few gates too late as well. Here's the notes I've made for this build from the GSL vod (Parting vs. Last, Game 2, Ro32 Code S, thank you Salivanth): 1 Gate FE: MSC -> WG -> Stalker 4:00 2nd gas 5:00 Robo, Gate 5:30 Sentry 5:45 Forge 6:45 3rd & 4th gas 7:45 Robobay, 2nd Forge 8:20 Twilight -> Blink, Gates 9:45 Colossus Range 3rd when Colossus Range finishes, Charge 13:00 Templar Archives 14:00 Benchmark if no engagements - 150 supply If anyone has any tips on improving the style or any comments I'd love to hear them. For those who want to try out this style, I definetely recommend it and hope it helps. | ||
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shiftY803
200 Posts
On June 02 2013 02:40 Teoita wrote: It's my go to build atm and it fucking rocks. It's basically an update on Parting's WoL build, and I FUCKING LOVE IT. Turned PvT from my worst to best matchup, which it's never been since 2010. I have been messing around with this build in my lower league matches, and it absolutely demolishes Terrans. Most players in lower leagues deal very poorly with shuttle drops/warp-ins from the Protoss player. But I sort of wonder if I am executing appropriately. Are you all going twilight before robo in order to have stuff in time for the potential 10:00 medivac push? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
The only differences compared to the build i did in WoL for months are 1) charge before archives 2) warp prism after gates 4-5 and before 6-7 3) one archon into storm rather than two (i can be slightly greedier because the msc does help with defending medivac timings) Drop with the prism loaded with 4 zealots when you see his medivac push about one third of the way. It works really really well. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
(1) How can I know if I'm underproducing gateway units between getting an expansion and actually establishing a solid 2-base economy? Should I try to hit every single warp in cycle? Or should I tech first, add extra gateways when I can, and use gateways units just as an emergency reaction to a push? (2) What's the ideal late game probe count? 66 probes? Or should I get more than that? (3) Should I have nonstop probe production until I reach this ideal probe count and get a third as soon as I possibly can afford it? (4) Is it ever a good idea to do a 2 base push with units like colossi, immortals, or voidrays? (I know chargelot archon can work as well as blink vs voidrays.) (5) When should I take a fourth/fifth? (6) When should I look for an engagement? Is it dangerous to engage before I max out? (7) What are you supposed to do in colossi wars? How are you supposed to micro? I swear, I always lose late game PvP engagements. (8) When is it a good idea to go tempest vs colossus? Even though colossi get obliterated by tempests, it seems to me they might still be good as long as they actually deal enough damage before dying. After the battle, the player who went heavy colossi will probably have killed more gateways units. The fact that you have tempests left doesn't help in a straight up batte unless your opponent reinforces with more colossi... right? | ||
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DanceSC
United States751 Posts
On June 03 2013 03:28 vhapter wrote: How is a macro PvP game supposed to develop? Unlike in PvT, which is pretty black and white imo, I'm never confident enough in my decisions. Here are a couple of questions: (1) How can I know if I'm underproducing gateway units between getting an expansion and actually establishing a solid 2-base economy? Should I try to hit every single warp in cycle? Or should I tech first, add extra gateways when I can, and use gateways units just as an emergency reaction to a push? (2) What's the ideal late game probe count? 66 probes? Or should I get more than that? (3) Should I have nonstop probe production until I reach this ideal probe count and get a third as soon as I possibly can afford it? (4) Is it ever a good idea to do a 2 base push with units like colossi, immortals, or voidrays? (I know chargelot archon can work as well as blink vs voidrays.) (5) When should I take a fourth/fifth? (6) When should I look for an engagement? Is it dangerous to engage before I max out? (7) What are you supposed to do in colossi wars? How are you supposed to micro? I swear, I always lose late game PvP engagements. (8) When is it a good idea to go tempest vs colossus? Even though colossi get obliterated by tempests, it seems to me they might still be good as long as they actually deal enough damage before dying. After the battle, the player who went heavy colossi will probably have killed more gateways units. The fact that you have tempests left doesn't help in a straight up batte unless your opponent reinforces with more colossi... right? 1) Be active in your scouting, 2-3 sentries for pheonix hallucinations. You want your gateway count to match your bases, so when your natural is fully saturated or near full saturation then go up to 6 gateways minimal, when you have 3 bases, then get 9-11. If you can cut production to get the 6 gates as you full saturate 2 base then you are in better shape then should you have produced on constant cycle. 2) Expect probes to die, produce till you have 3 base saturation and then a little extra, I woudln't worry about counting them, as long as you are between 16 and 24 on each nexus and 3 in each gas. (i try to stop at 18ish) 3) 2nds come around 7 mins average, thirds come around 11 mins, and 12 min mark is average forge. The third is secured when both players realize that the army values are too close and the attacker would be at the disadvantage. 4) Depends on what you scout, Ideal colossus count is 7, after that produce immortals, early timing attacks are only good if your opponent is lacking something that would normally stop you. 5) When your main is running low and when your main depletes 6) When his army is out of position, or whenever you can engage the army and attack an expansion at the same time without the risk of losing your entire army. 7) You only micro the immortals in a colossi war, after 7 colossus produce immortals and use them to focus the enemy colossus | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On June 02 2013 06:15 Teoita wrote: This is what I do as well when I see a hatch first. Works quite well. The logic behind it in my mind being that since Zerg is being greedy and going for an unsafe expand, I will do the same since it can't be punished. I usually leave a probe near by the zerg base to make sure they don't cancel their hatch and try some crazy all-in and with that safeguard I have been able to get away super greedy nexus firsts a lot.I just go nexus first and play greedy as fuck (ie going gateway and gasses before cannon). If you went forge first because you didnt scout in time (4 player map or whatever) then yeah, cannon rush the hell out of him. | ||
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
You're going to end up behind if you forge and they hatch first and you don't cannon rush, so it seems like the two acceptable strats are: 1. Blind Nexus 2. Cannon rush. I personally prefer the blind nexus, though I don't think either is optimal. The risk of a sub-optimal cannon rush is pretty great. I see pros on streams(won't mention any names) screw it up and end up way behind all the time, though I've also seen cannon rushes basically win the game. The majority of the time you're going to be on a map that you can scout though. Even Star Station is cross only now iirc. You can always just use a gateway build on 4 players map if you're nervous about how to play FFE with no scouting info. Overall, I'd say that blind nexus is the easiest build to execute if you're playing blind vs. Zerg with the obvious downside that you auto lose if they 10pool. | ||
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freizya
United States223 Posts
On June 03 2013 02:10 Teoita wrote: Nop i go 1gate fe>robo>3gates>forge>twilight, 100% standard. The only differences compared to the build i did in WoL for months are 1) charge before archives 2) warp prism after gates 4-5 and before 6-7 3) one archon into storm rather than two (i can be slightly greedier because the msc does help with defending medivac timings) Drop with the prism loaded with 4 zealots when you see his medivac push about one third of the way. It works really really well. What timing do you get the templar archive? Ive been doing the wol parting build still this whole time. I think I want to try this new one out. | ||
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freizya
United States223 Posts
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czaku
Poland429 Posts
On June 03 2013 13:21 SteveNick wrote: I've seen players play a couple different styles vs. Zerg on a 4 player map where they can't scout. You're going to end up behind if you forge and they hatch first and you don't cannon rush, so it seems like the two acceptable strats are: 1. Blind Nexus 2. Cannon rush. I personally prefer the blind nexus, though I don't think either is optimal. The risk of a sub-optimal cannon rush is pretty great. I see pros on streams(won't mention any names) screw it up and end up way behind all the time, though I've also seen cannon rushes basically win the game. The majority of the time you're going to be on a map that you can scout though. Even Star Station is cross only now iirc. You can always just use a gateway build on 4 players map if you're nervous about how to play FFE with no scouting info. Overall, I'd say that blind nexus is the easiest build to execute if you're playing blind vs. Zerg with the obvious downside that you auto lose if they 10pool. Yes, i agree. As i am always going 16 nexus no matter what, i just adjust by build when seeing 15 hatch. On 4 player maps i will have forge down when scouted last. So i skip cannon for a long time and go pylon, gate, gases while chronoing probes. And i scout for 3rd timing, if they are greedy and went for 3 hatch before pool, then yes, cannon rush. | ||
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