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Italy12246 Posts
@LardMaster: 10gate is viable if a bit risky/gimmicky and i do it sometimes as a poke on smaller maps. I get one zealot and chrono 3 stalkers, put some pressure on with those, and then expand off of it. It's obviously less economical than your average 1gate fe but it's a) really fun and b) really micro intensive, so it's a good build to practice. From there on you can go into whatever, generally if i've done lots of damage i just finish off the game with a 2base timing like an immortal bust; sample replay: http://drop.sc/340190
@shivver: that's an interesting style, it's quite hard to pull off but it can be quite good. Personally i've been a templar first guy for about one year though, so i'm not expert on colossus builds. In general though, it's harder to defend straight up attacks but easier to stop fast 2/4 medivac doom drops that can come with medivac timings. The nice thing of blink is also that you can go both into templar or colossus off of it, so it's kinda hard to read for the Terran.
@darklordollii: to clarify, you play aggressively with the blink stalkers only after the terran has backed out of his initial pressure. You first research it to hold drops and have an easier time holding your third, which is why it was a very popular build on Antiga where drops were so powerful.
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Italy12246 Posts
1) I'm 99.9999999999% sure it's armor, you always get that first vs terran and it's more useful than attack in PvT as usual. +1 armor 6gates were actually fairly popular in early ish 2011 i think.
2) I think if you go msc expand and you want to be safe (debatable if you are going to all-in) yeah i guess get the cannons. Personally i prefer to do zealot/stalker pokes to know wether any kind of tech play is coming my way rather than blindly relying on cannons. Also you can't do that push vs cloak banshees anyway for obvious reasons.
That said, Tails' builds are usually super refined and awesome, so i recommend just watching his stream and figuring it out if you can 
Also dw about making a thread.
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I have a question about the PvT HT first build. Is it possible to go double forge and use it? Or, is going HT on four gas just too gas heavy to afford it?
I mean, I know there are single and double forge builds that go into Colossus, but I haven't found a double forge into HT build.
Also, is there a replay of this build I can use as a benchmark? I have this problem where I don't make enough army units early on and can just die to some pushes. I don't intentionally play greedy, but that's what it seems like I'm doing. So, being able to see exactly what is made and when can help give me an idea of what I should be doing with the build.
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Italy12246 Posts
It's possible to do both but i've personally never been a big fan of double forge templar for a few reasons:
1) You don't benefit as much from attack upgrades because the bulk of your damage comes from storm rather than colossus fire
2) As you said, templar is very expensive gas wise, which means that most of the time double forge templar builds are forced to delay their upgrades a bit as they warp in ht's.
3) Finally, because of the gas cost you cant afford a nice observer network like you would with single forge templar.
That said, im SUPER biased towards single forge templar builds (with a later second forge). I can't remember any games with straight up 3gate robo> double forge > templar builds off the top of my head i'm afraid, but the choice of templar vs colossus shouldnt impact wether you lose to an early push (maybe with the exception of the medivac timing, which can be tricky to hold without colossi at first).
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Italy12246 Posts
Yeah the fast forge thing works well. Back in WoL i played around with kcdc's robo-less build for a bit (which is more or less what you describe), and i used to go 1gate into forge into 3gates quite a bit when i saw gassless fe (almost always) on big maps. It really worked well.
Also i feel like if you aren't going for a bust 4 sentries is overkill, i'd just make 2.
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Italy12246 Posts
Uh i guess so. I figure if you get the cannons blindly and you know he's expanding you don't need to scout though.
Honestly im not 100% sure since i go 1gate fe into robo every game im not 1basing.
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I've seen Protoss get +1 attack in PvT in pro games where Protoss is going for +1 attack blink stalkers(2 base play). Seems like that could be a valid choice considering you're focusing more on using your micro to avoid all damage while using your attack to wittle away at them. Never really seen +1 attack over +1 armour other than that though.
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if i'm going FFE into air and the Z takes a fast third, like 4 min third, do I take a fast third too or is that too risky?
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I think you should get a relatively fast third while sending the first few warpin rounds of zealots to force some units out of the zerg while teaching up to colossi and harassing with the 5 phoenix.
Edit: If you intend to go skytoss definitely get a fast third in that case and secure it with cannons while keeping the zerg busy with phoenix (and maybe some zealot harass).
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Italy12246 Posts
Yeah if you go skytoss you can take like an 8 minute third off 1-2 void rays before adding your extra stargates.
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What are the best solid builds for FE for all the races?
User was warned for this post
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Can someone give me some advice on what I could have done better in this game? I feel like I made a lot of poor decisions that cost me the game but I can't quite pinpoint what they were:
http://ggtracker.com/matches/3435065
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On June 06 2013 06:24 Xaeldaren wrote:Can someone give me some advice on what I could have done better in this game? I feel like I made a lot of poor decisions that cost me the game but I can't quite pinpoint what they were: http://ggtracker.com/matches/3435065
You pretty much lost when 20 probes died to a hellion drop, put you too far behind for anything you did to really be relevant in your loss. But anyway, for the rest of the game:
-Use obs to spot drops and keep more stalkers in your main anyway because you should be able to watch his army and see when he moves out, so you don't need to keep your army at the front.
-Also I feel DTs was a weak choice, mech is almost always accompanied by a raven (or a few), although this guy didn't have one and the DTs did well, most people will have a raven.
-Fast third was a good choice imo though, and double robo was also good. Personally I prefer skytoss against mech, especially this mass hellbat with a few tanks stuff, but robo is fine too, but against this number of hellbats I feel colossus are good, and I think you got them a little late.
-Also you had zealots; these are 100% worthless against hellbats and this money would be better spent on stalkers or more archons/triple robo/stargate units.
-Hidden base was ok idea to abuse slow mech, but don't put it at the Terran's normal 4th 
-Also your upgrades were slow.
-@31 mins you had no reason to move into that. You had far better econ and should have waited for him to move his tanks into you. Moving into sieged up tanks is never good, for him to attack you he would have had to unsiege. Also this is a perfect example of why I think skytoss is a better answer; he had a couple of vikings and like 4 mines, nothing else could shoot up.
Hope I helped and didn't sound too harsh I can appreciate mech can be tough to play against.
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zerg is still my worst match up as of the moment below 30%, terran is my fave match up but not my best really around 50% but macro games vs T are just exciting, i find myself losing to well placed emps, mass cloaked ghost. i have been trying the mother ship core expand used by rain, im not really sure what to do though when they drop hell bats, i usually lose tons of probes then get crushed by a timing push of hell bats, do you guys have advice and vods showing me how to deal with this type of harass? also teoita, can you walk me through your pvz gateway expand into 7 gate all in, im getting bored with the naniwa zealot drop tactic vs zerg, i believe if i can get my win rate up in my PvZ i can get to masters. thanks.
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Thanks for taking the time to watch such a long game and offer your insight. I agree that the Hellion drop cost me the game. The following 20+ minutes was just me trying to claw my way back. My opponent is one of my training partners and the one I have the most trouble with. Do you have any tips for defending against someone who is so relentlessly aggressive? I'm finding it incredibly difficult to deal with Terran attacks in multiple places. I feel like it's more of an attention/army placement issue as even though I've been opening Charge > Templar over Blink > Colossus lately I still had the same issues when I opened Blink.
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On June 06 2013 09:37 3LILpigs wrote:
zerg is still my worst match up as of the moment below 30%, terran is my fave match up but not my best really around 50% but macro games vs T are just exciting, i find myself losing to well placed emps, mass cloaked ghost. i have been trying the mother ship core expand used by rain, im not really sure what to do though when they drop hell bats, i usually lose tons of probes then get crushed by a timing push of hell bats, do you guys have advice and vods showing me how to deal with this type of harass? also teoita, can you walk me through your pvz gateway expand into 7 gate all in, im getting bored with the naniwa zealot drop tactic vs zerg, i believe if i can get my win rate up in my PvZ i can get to masters. thanks.
It's becoming pretty common for Toss to start the early game with extreme pressure in response to the reaper opening, by sending the zealot straight to terran base, along with stalker and MoCo, dealing with the reaper with your probes while getting a second stalker.
You then can transition into whatever your preferred build it, however it IS possible to win the game, if you get them at the right moment, just by destroying too many units and SCV's for him to have a chance, as you are just doing normal 1gate FE behind all thing.
PvZ you really need to scout, you can 1gate FE or FFE. There are a TON of strategies to do after that, and it's really up to you. You can go Stargate into pheonix, or into 3 pheonix then voidray. You can go straight to Charglot Archons, or drop a robo and get a few immortals before going to Collosus. It all depends on what you scout. I prefer to go about 4-5 pheonix and like 5-6 gate and try to do some harassing while getting a robo and possibly a third depending on what is going on. The thing is everything you do depends on scouting. If you see him going X, you can't do Y, or it forces you to do W or you die.
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EPT
