EPTAlso, you want to fake a zealot or do it on a 4player map because he coud eng block you and that's no fun.
The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 114
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
Also, you want to fake a zealot or do it on a 4player map because he coud eng block you and that's no fun. | ||
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Kovaz
Canada233 Posts
PvT: I see he takes a gas, but the first unit out of his barracks is a marine. I assume it will be fast factory for either WM drop or hellbat drop, so I get my robo asap after nexus and then cut probes to add gates 2+3 so I have units to defend. PvZ: I see gas before third. Here I have no idea, since it could be just for quick ling speed, a quick lair, or a bust with roaches or banelings. I usually react by getting a stargate and gates up as quickly as possible, then sending my mscore out somewhat aggressively to spot an allin coming, but I'm not sure what I do is optimal since I've been dying to allins and macro play out of that situation equally frequently. Not really sure how correct my reactions are so any advice on these, or just scouting in general would be appreciated. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On June 07 2013 04:34 Teoita wrote: Indeed. With Red City coming into the map pool we will have a new map to do it on though. That map seems practically designed for Protoss all-ins. Jangbi certainly demonstrated that with his match against Yugioh.Yeah Soultrain is still viable, but you gotta find the right map. We don't have Antiga, Cloud Kingdom and Ohana in the pool anymore T_T. Also, I miss Ohana. Err... I guess it is more I miss my 91% winrate against Zerg on Ohana. I only ever lost to 6pools because I just always went blind nexus first on it. I usually didn't even bother scouting on that map. Bel'shir Vestige seems okay for immortal/sentry, depending on which route you take. I haven't lost so far using it on that map, which is nice because my PvZ otherwise was like 30% on that map. As does Neo Planet S (though I think Mantrain is better on that, especially if you warp in at both the third and main and ferry immortals between each). Whirlwind horizontal positions are okay but all other positions suck (cross is almost impossible to if they open speedling). And for Akilon, going through the ramp with rocks works decently well, but that is tricky to pull off. | ||
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BrainPaste
United States18 Posts
And I never make collosus, just too expensive, I always feel like I don't have enough time to make them. | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On June 07 2013 07:24 Ben... wrote: Indeed. With Red City coming into the map pool we will have a new map to do it on though. That map seems practically designed for Protoss all-ins. Jangbi certainly demonstrated that with his match against Yugioh. I love how on red city there's these really cool narrow spots where you can put your proxy pylon and I think only two zerglings will be able to hit it at a time. Gonna nani 4 gate all day there | ||
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S7EFEN
86 Posts
On June 07 2013 11:54 BrainPaste wrote: I'm having trouble with the Marine Marauder 1 base push around 6-7 minutes, with stim. It's very frustrating and responsible for most of my 1v1 ladder anxiety. I'm platinum in 2v2 but still silver 1v1. Really fucking irritating. And just against Terran in general, I always seem to be to late getting Psi Storm or just don't have enough units, or spend too much on cannons because I'm worried about drops and then don't get dropped and don't have enough units, etc... And I never make collosus, just too expensive, I always feel like I don't have enough time to make them. Assuming you go for some sort of 1 gate expand with MSC into a robo you should aim to poke with zealot / stalker / msc if you can't confirm an expo with a probe. With no CC on the lowground you know it has to be some sort of tech expand or bad 1 base all in. You should have an obs over in time to confirm no CC + additional rax with stim. Drop down additional gates ASAP before robo bay or forges. You should have pretty much just obs, msc and sentries on the field with maybe 1-2 stalkers when this attack moves out. With FF and photon overcharge you should be able to get 2 + warpins from 4-6 gates with immortal production as needed and hold the push easily with FF + msc + gateway units. This 1 base stim push will pretty much aim to snipe off your natural and any sentries + MSC and without doing that will be very behind. Also, any stims used vastly weaken the push. Again, forcefields and MSC are key. Also mechanically it appears you have an issue. Robo openers in a macro PvT are pretty much what you should use 100% of the time on ladder. WM drop/pressure makes detection crucial. From here the obvious tech path is robo bay for splash, rather than twilight + templar + time for storm + energy. You make it sound like you're building cannons on 2 base. Zealots + sentries + immortal/colossi at the front, 3-5-7 stalkers and 1-2 zealots in the main. Take third when comfortable THEN add on HT + cannons per base. On 2 base you can effectively deny drop with a few stalkers + MSC and static isn't necessary. | ||
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BrainPaste
United States18 Posts
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FlyingBeer
United States262 Posts
On June 07 2013 07:03 Kovaz wrote: I have a few specific scenarios where I'm not sure what my scouting information means. I have a decent idea, I think, but I'd like confirmation. PvT: I see he takes a gas, but the first unit out of his barracks is a marine. I assume it will be fast factory for either WM drop or hellbat drop, so I get my robo asap after nexus and then cut probes to add gates 2+3 so I have units to defend. PvZ: I see gas before third. Here I have no idea, since it could be just for quick ling speed, a quick lair, or a bust with roaches or banelings. I usually react by getting a stargate and gates up as quickly as possible, then sending my mscore out somewhat aggressively to spot an allin coming, but I'm not sure what I do is optimal since I've been dying to allins and macro play out of that situation equally frequently. Not really sure how correct my reactions are so any advice on these, or just scouting in general would be appreciated. Gas timings provide very little information. A late gas tells you what your opponent can't be doing. An early gas tells you almost nothing. You shouldn't be planning your build heavily around them. In PvT, a gas early is common for Terran so that they can have widow mines out in time if you decide to go for fast oracle play. The most you can say is that gas before barracks almost guarantees either proxy factory or a 1-base 1-1-1 all-in. In PvZ, getting an early gas is standard for a lot of different builds. I think ling speed is the most frequent one. You should get a Stargate if that's what you were planning from the beginning. The most important scouting information is when they take their third. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On June 07 2013 12:51 S7EFEN wrote: Assuming you go for some sort of 1 gate expand with MSC into a robo you should aim to poke with zealot / stalker / msc if you can't confirm an expo with a probe. With no CC on the lowground you know it has to be some sort of tech expand or bad 1 base all in. You should have an obs over in time to confirm no CC + additional rax with stim. Drop down additional gates ASAP before robo bay or forges. You should have pretty much just obs, msc and sentries on the field with maybe 1-2 stalkers when this attack moves out. With FF and photon overcharge you should be able to get 2 + warpins from 4-6 gates with immortal production as needed and hold the push easily with FF + msc + gateway units. This 1 base stim push will pretty much aim to snipe off your natural and any sentries + MSC and without doing that will be very behind. Also, any stims used vastly weaken the push. Again, forcefields and MSC are key. Also mechanically it appears you have an issue. Robo openers in a macro PvT are pretty much what you should use 100% of the time on ladder. WM drop/pressure makes detection crucial. From here the obvious tech path is robo bay for splash, rather than twilight + templar + time for storm + energy. You make it sound like you're building cannons on 2 base. Zealots + sentries + immortal/colossi at the front, 3-5-7 stalkers and 1-2 zealots in the main. Take third when comfortable THEN add on HT + cannons per base. On 2 base you can effectively deny drop with a few stalkers + MSC and static isn't necessary. You don't NECESSARILY have to go robo into colossus, there's some good 3gate robo into HT builds out there (two of them are my main pvt's builds). They are harder to pull off and wouldnt recommened them to a beginner, but just saying... Regarding holding one base stim all-ins: it kinda comes down to scouting and making tons of stuff. Once you see he isn't expanding chronoboost out immortals and make gateway units rather than teching (always 1gate FE though). Together with the Nexus cannon you should be able to hold easily if you dont play too greedy. | ||
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Prakas
United States30 Posts
PvZ - Is 1gate FE safe? Now I that I hit high diamond/master level, I can't do a proper walloff quick enough, especially against fast lings on maps with a wider natural. Should I stop chronoing probes and chrono warpgate with a quicker 4gate after expand? Or should I just FFE? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
PvZ: yes it is, unless he's bad and going 14/14 or something silly like that. You can have any followup you want of 1gate FE, 4gate works well vs "bad" players (below top master) because they dont know roach warren/unit timings. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On June 07 2013 19:14 Prakas wrote: PvT - Scouting in the early game is very difficult with the walloff. I typically go for a 1gate FE. However, what's the best way to prepared/defend against hellion run by and hellbat drop, and the threat of mine drops? I go for fast robo and add on 2 gateways, but I just can't kill the hellions quick enough before they kill tons of probes. Photon overcharge goes without saying. Against hellions, you can also try stuff like blocking your ramp with 2 units while you use your msc and the rest of your army to put more damage on the hellions. I generally get stalkers 2 and 3 as soon as my second gateway goes up and warp gate has been researched. Then I generally warp in 2 sentries after that to deal with any marinie shoves, but I guess they could also block my ramp. Maybe you can do something like this, I guess it should work just fine. | ||
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S7EFEN
86 Posts
Teoita wrote: "As shown by MC at MLG, Stargate openers can be incredibly powerful if the Terrans are caught offguard. Particularly, an Oracle can be game ending if the Terran's AA isn't in position, for example if he his trying a Marine/Widow Mine push. Also, a small group of Oracles can deal extremely well with marines before stim and medivacs are ready, making Oracle/gateway timings very powerful. With the strength of the new medivacs, Phoenixes can be very useful in protecting your base from drops too. On the other hand, Stargate tech is still a huge investment and you need to make sure you get a good return out of your investment." Has this continued to hold up? The idea being harass with a small phoenix/oracle squad, picking off workers and sniping production cycles while teching to storm/colossi and phoenix to deny drops? It seems like stargate builds in PvZ and PvP neglect upgrades hard whereas in PvT you really want to stay ahead in ups. Knowing this where would I go from a SG opener vs traditional bio? | ||
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FlyingBeer
United States262 Posts
On June 08 2013 08:59 S7EFEN wrote: The OP says Teoita wrote: "As shown by MC at MLG, Stargate openers can be incredibly powerful if the Terrans are caught offguard. Particularly, an Oracle can be game ending if the Terran's AA isn't in position, for example if he his trying a Marine/Widow Mine push. Also, a small group of Oracles can deal extremely well with marines before stim and medivacs are ready, making Oracle/gateway timings very powerful. With the strength of the new medivacs, Phoenixes can be very useful in protecting your base from drops too. On the other hand, Stargate tech is still a huge investment and you need to make sure you get a good return out of your investment." Has this continued to hold up? The idea being harass with a small phoenix/oracle squad, picking off workers and sniping production cycles while teching to storm/colossi and phoenix to deny drops? It seems like stargate builds in PvZ and PvP neglect upgrades hard whereas in PvT you really want to stay ahead in ups. Knowing this where would I go from a SG opener vs traditional bio? Modern Terran openings in HotS have been getting upgrades later, so it's easier to stay ahead in upgrades if that's your goal. Here's a guide on a macro-oriented PvT stargate build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409457 | ||
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Drowzee
40 Posts
first of all: i SUCK at PvP, its my worst matchup by far. so i decided to learn a new built i can use. so i browsed through replays and streams and i found the day9daily #589, in which Day9 promotes the fast expand of State in PvP. i liked the idea and the built made sense to me. so i tried to copy it. but i am not able to hold against 4gates. theoretically the MSC should defend my expansion with photon overcharge. but my timings are not that crisp like State's and i lose some seconds in the ciritcal path of my tech. and sometimes i get supply blocked so the second sentry is missing and stuff escalates quickly. is the strategy from that daily even recommended for players that don't have ultra crisp timings with all buildings lining up perfectly? | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Bahajinbo
Germany488 Posts
On June 08 2013 23:38 Drowzee wrote: is the strategy from that daily even recommended for players that don't have ultra crisp timings with all buildings lining up perfectly? I think, it isn't recommended for players without perfect timings. Eco-heavy builds in PvP are viable and strong but I don't like them in the ladder because of the crazy amount of cheeses & aggressive builds. Personally, I love the 3 stalker rush into 3 gate pressure + robo. I think Welmu plays something similar a lot and I have pretty good success with it. You can punish greedy players nicely and are also able to hold a 4 gate with your early 3 stalkers + MSC. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
On June 09 2013 00:05 Teoita wrote: Also im not sure you can hold a straight up 4gate with 1gate fe. You can beat a delayed 4gate (warping in the first 4 units away) because of the combination of photon overcharge and the first immortal coming out, but i dont think you can beat him if he does the standard zealot/stalker poke with pylons at your ramp. I think the bigger question is: What kind of shape are you if you do lose the nexus to a 4gate but can hold your ramp? I'm not entirely sure what the best transition after losing a Nexus to a 4gate is, but I'm inclined to believe that you aren't too terribly far behind. I was watching Artosis' stream and he 1gate expoed, lost his nexus to a 4gate and didn't seem bothered, then went on to win the game. I would presume the reasoning for this is that even without the Nexus, you're still ahead in probe count and tech. I would think that you would be behind after losing the Nexus, but behind by how much? It seems like the game is still playable even after saccing the expo(you can probably get a decent trade in minerals if your photon overcharge kills a few units), so the question is: What is the best transition to take when playing 1gate FE with a lost expo vs. 4gate? Do you try to expo again right away or do you tech to something, or what? I'm not really sure the answer on that. You're only really losing 400 minerals for losing the Nexus, and with a photon overcharge and subsequent forcefields at your ramp if they try to press, you might even end up being ahead in the resources lost count. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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