EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 115
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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samuu
Germany13 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On June 08 2013 23:38 Drowzee wrote: hello protoss users! first of all: i SUCK at PvP, its my worst matchup by far. so i decided to learn a new built i can use. so i browsed through replays and streams and i found the day9daily #589, in which Day9 promotes the fast expand of State in PvP. i liked the idea and the built made sense to me. so i tried to copy it. but i am not able to hold against 4gates. theoretically the MSC should defend my expansion with photon overcharge. but my timings are not that crisp like State's and i lose some seconds in the ciritcal path of my tech. and sometimes i get supply blocked so the second sentry is missing and stuff escalates quickly. is the strategy from that daily even recommended for players that don't have ultra crisp timings with all buildings lining up perfectly? I haven't tried a 1 gate fe against a 4 gate, but I don't see how you could lose to it given proper execution. If you open with a msc and a stalker, you can deal with a zealot and a stalker just fine. By the time the 4 gate hits you should have a sentry out and photon overcharge ready. And if you got a very early sentry instead, you will be able to force field your ramp twice by 5:45-5:55 with a single sentry. In all honesty, this kind of build is so straightforward that I don't see a problem. Not having good timings should be easy to fix. Practice it a few times in single player until you build everything on the right time. I don't see how any other PvP build could be easier. For example, if you miss 1-2 chronos when you're doing a 4 gate, it will probably suck. Ok, let's say you didn't miss the chronos this time... but then your gateways are late. That sucks. See what I mean? | ||
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
On June 09 2013 09:20 vhapter wrote: I haven't tried a 1 gate fe against a 4 gate, but I don't see how you could lose to it given proper execution. If you open with a msc and a stalker, you can deal with a zealot and a stalker just fine. By the time the 4 gate hits you should have a sentry out and photon overcharge ready. And if you got a very early sentry instead, you will be able to force field your ramp twice by 5:45-5:55 with a single sentry. In all honesty, this kind of build is so straightforward that I don't see a problem. Not having good timings should be easy to fix. Practice it a few times in single player until you build everything on the right time. I don't see how any other PvP build could be easier. For example, if you miss 1-2 chronos when you're doing a 4 gate, it will probably suck. Ok, let's say you didn't miss the chronos this time... but then your gateways are late. That sucks. See what I mean? I've ran into two things that cause me to lose when 1gate expoing vs. 4gate. I never have a problem with my nexus finishing or having overcharge, but they either just kill the nexus through the overcharge, or they wait 60 seconds and then kill you. My personal solution to this is to just reactively not 1gate expo if they don't take a second gas, and especially not if they got an early gateway for faster cyber core. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 09 2013 10:07 SteveNick wrote: I've ran into two things that cause me to lose when 1gate expoing vs. 4gate. I never have a problem with my nexus finishing or having overcharge, but they either just kill the nexus through the overcharge, or they wait 60 seconds and then kill you. My personal solution to this is to just reactively not 1gate expo if they don't take a second gas, and especially not if they got an early gateway for faster cyber core. That seems like a pretty intuitive response. If you just do a standard build instead of 1-gate expand against a build that's obviously a 4-gate, you're going to be laughably far ahead. 4-gate is sooooo bad now, and very easy to scout; if your opponent doesn't ever take a 2nd gas, it is definitely a 4-gate in HotS. All you do is hold your ramp with FF then counter with whatever tech you have and laugh as you win. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On June 09 2013 10:07 SteveNick wrote: I've ran into two things that cause me to lose when 1gate expoing vs. 4gate. I never have a problem with my nexus finishing or having overcharge, but they either just kill the nexus through the overcharge, or they wait 60 seconds and then kill you. My personal solution to this is to just reactively not 1gate expo if they don't take a second gas, and especially not if they got an early gateway for faster cyber core. You mean you can't hold it off even with an immortal out + about 2 warp in cycles (including sentries)? Any chance you're getting your gateways up a bit too late? | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 09 2013 10:49 vhapter wrote: You mean you can't hold it off even with an immortal out + about 2 warp in cycles (including sentries)? Any chance you're getting your gateways up a bit too late? You should stop advocating this 1-gate FE so strongly. It's fairly safe and can deal with light pressure, but any dedicated 4-gate pressure on a map that isn't huge is going to kill off the nexus 100%. Especially with a 12-gate, you cannot stop 6 stalkers + 4 zealots from DPSing your nexus down. Even with the cannon, all you can have at 6:20 is 3 sentries/MsC or 2 stalkers/MsC/sentry at best. The best solution to scouting a 12-gate or a single gas with no extra gas added is to just go for a tech build instead of a 1-gate FE; going 1-gate FE against a 4-gate is just throwing away your advantage. As for this person's other concern, I imagine it's the death that comes from you getting out 1 immortal + 2 warpins and thinking "Well, I feel pretty safe now, I'm going to go down my ramp", and then you get force-fielded into your natural and die to 20+ gateway units. The solution to that is just make sure you send a zealot or a probe out to check outside of your natural before moving down. If you end up being contained in your base, the best response is an immediate colossus bay and then just pushing with a rangeless colossus. Against a 4-gate, you have pretty much a 100% chance of winning with this followup push. | ||
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Kaizen[7]
United States86 Posts
Should I just forget everything and just start playing the game like its brand new? | ||
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igay
Australia1178 Posts
On June 09 2013 14:37 Kaizen[7] wrote: Can someone give me some general direction on things to focus on in changing from WoL to HotS? Mothercore construction and usage seems to be one of the biggest things. What else has experience shown to be valuable? Where should I focus my efforts or should I focus them? Should I just forget everything and just start playing the game like its brand new? there are a few things you need to look out for one obvious example is the medivac boost. just play a bunch of games and you'll soon get the feel for what you need to be looking out for | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 09 2013 14:37 Kaizen[7] wrote: Can someone give me some general direction on things to focus on in changing from WoL to HotS? Mothercore construction and usage seems to be one of the biggest things. What else has experience shown to be valuable? Where should I focus my efforts or should I focus them? Should I just forget everything and just start playing the game like its brand new? Main advice to give is: get your mothership core out early, especially if you're early expanding. This means an emphasis on gas in the early game, double geysers at 15/16 are kind of the standard right now. Also, it's a lot easier to die to drops or oracles, so just make sure you've got a few units in the back of your base going into the midgame. Overall, you can be a lot more aggressive with the MsC as long as you don't lose it! :D GL HF, make sure you check out some of the PvX guides floating around the forum for updated builds! | ||
Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
In general, 1gate FE is another one of those builds that is really good vs some builds (dt for instance) and pretty bad vs others. | ||
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Bahajinbo
Germany488 Posts
Is someone playing a similar playstyle as Alicia's PvZ here? I tried it out and I really, really like his playstyle (Gateway expand -> 3 gate pressure -> stargate -> 3rd + 2 stargates into mass voids). You can watch WCS america VODs of him against Nestea or Sen. I'm fascinated by this playstyle. Also, I love void rays. Damn, as a Protoss you have to love them. Still, I have some stupid problems with this PvZ style: - when 30 mutas randomly appear. I know, I have 3 stargates to pump phoenixes, but in most cases I don't even know he builds mass mutas. What do you do to scout the threat of mass mutas properly? I have many sentrys early on, so I can try to hallucinate phoenixes. I also could blindly build phoenixes around the 10-11 minute mark to hold a standard 3 base muta timing, but I want my void rays. - the muta + corruptor composition. Damn, I hate this one the most. I always try to go for mass phoenix with range, but 10-15 corruptors with 20 mutas is way too mobile. The void rays are too slow and the phoenixes are too bad against corruptors. I always try to get some more stalkers or archons to engage this. But even stalkers & especially archons are too slow against curruptor/muta. This is by far my most hated unit composition right now. Someone on the KR server crushed me really hard yesterday with that composition. - when do you react with a robo + robo bay or a twilight + templar archives? I usually try to get colossi when I see a gg host aka swarm host transition or a hydra transition. When I somehow scout a infestor transition, I try to get templars as support. - when to move out with the MSC + void ray squadron? I didn't try that out yet. By now, I played pretty passively (in a passive PvZ I even managed to max out with skytoss + zealot/sentry at 14 minutes lol), but with the MSC & some void rays you have insanely good options to snipe expansions, queens or ground units. But I don't yet know what is the best number of void rays to start harassing the zerg. By doing that, you also can get information what the zerg plans. So it is really a key core of the build which I didn't considered yet. Thanks in advance. I hope some of you also play / like that style in PvZ and can help me. | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
I've also had some troule with muta and corruptor, personally I feel that you simply need to have storm ready for any major engagement. (And dont forget to use chargelots to harass) Also he got out 6 phoenixes before starting voidray production, so that scouting isnt as much of a problem. in GSL vs losira he moved out with 6 void rays, but in a game vs soulkey ive seen him do it with 4. | ||
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Bahajinbo
Germany488 Posts
On June 09 2013 20:43 7mk wrote: I've played sOs 1gate FE->4gate-> double stargate style. I've also had some troule with muta and corruptor, personally I feel that you simply need to have storm ready for any major engagement. (And dont forget to use chargelots to harass) Also he got out 6 phoenixes before starting voidray production, so that scouting isnt as much of a problem. in GSL vs losira he moved out with 6 void rays, but in a game vs soulkey ive seen him do it with 4. Thx, I will try to incorporate that. How do you spread your HTs around your bases in case of muta harassment? I just experimented with the timings and the build order some more and I think, I will try to harass the zerg now with my first 3-4 void rays + MSC and try to snipe as much as possible. I would have never thought this playstyle is actually that strong. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On June 09 2013 11:50 SC2John wrote: You should stop advocating this 1-gate FE so strongly. It's fairly safe and can deal with light pressure, but any dedicated 4-gate pressure on a map that isn't huge is going to kill off the nexus 100%. Especially with a 12-gate, you cannot stop 6 stalkers + 4 zealots from DPSing your nexus down. Even with the cannon, all you can have at 6:20 is 3 sentries/MsC or 2 stalkers/MsC/sentry at best. The best solution to scouting a 12-gate or a single gas with no extra gas added is to just go for a tech build instead of a 1-gate FE; going 1-gate FE against a 4-gate is just throwing away your advantage. As for this person's other concern, I imagine it's the death that comes from you getting out 1 immortal + 2 warpins and thinking "Well, I feel pretty safe now, I'm going to go down my ramp", and then you get force-fielded into your natural and die to 20+ gateway units. The solution to that is just make sure you send a zealot or a probe out to check outside of your natural before moving down. If you end up being contained in your base, the best response is an immediate colossus bay and then just pushing with a rangeless colossus. Against a 4-gate, you have pretty much a 100% chance of winning with this followup push. I'm not saying sticking to this expansion plan is the best approach, because I haven't even tried it myself in this situation. And a colossus push is most likely one of the best responses, probably the best one like you said. I truly believe that a 1 gate fe has enough potential to hold off a 4 gate though. Even if expanding is not the most optimal response upon scouting a 4 gate, I think tweaking your chronos and cutting probes to build your key production buildings earlier should do the trick. I could be wrong, but a lot of people overlook the power of tweaking simple things. Of course, you may very well not be interested in tweaking the build at all and prefer to do a colossus push in response, which is reasonable. I think tweaking this build could make it safer not only against 4 gates, but other aggressive builds as well. On June 09 2013 18:09 Teoita wrote: I'd like to add that 4gate isn't the only build that can give 1gate fe trouble. Specifically, stargate play is still basically a bo win against robo based expands. In general, 1gate FE is another one of those builds that is really good vs some builds (dt for instance) and pretty bad vs others. You mean an aggressive stargate build? Because opening with an early sentry seems too defensive to make a reactive all in work. And without a hallucination scout, I think your only option to be safe against dts is to blind counter it, which would suck in stargate mirror, or msc scouting. Do you have a link to any vods where the 1 gate fe player lost to a stargate all in? Among all proleague matches I've watched, I can only remember 1 game that fits your description of bo win - Terminator vs Rain -, and Terminator was fairly aggressive compared to most stargate play I see in proleague. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
I can't think of any pro games atm off the top of my head, what i'm saying here is limited to my personal experience (mostly in practice games vs monk) so take it with a grain of salt; he just kinda scouts my nexus and kills me while actually having decent probe count. I generally do the same when i open stargate myself and it works out decently. | ||
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v0lk
Portugal5 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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LardMaster
United Kingdom123 Posts
 Thanks in advance you lovely people. | ||
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Xtreme94
Malaysia282 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On June 10 2013 05:19 Xtreme94 wrote: I had a problem in pvp right now. If I open robo expand but my opponent after expand will going voidray timing, how did I defend it? Build my own stargate also or going twilight tech? Read the OP. | ||
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