EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 117
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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freizya
United States223 Posts
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Sch3lp
Belgium20 Posts
Thank you guys so much though! This also helps me understand better when I'm watching matches. Very neat! | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On June 11 2013 05:03 freizya wrote: what do you guys think about red city as a map for toss this season? good or bad? Looks great for sentry-immortal, no? Chokes everywhere. (As seen through my zerg-eyes) | ||
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megapants
United States1314 Posts
i think i want to start doing some pre-medivac timing attacks like 2 immortal bust or 5 gate zealot/sentry with +1 armor, going into the mid-game with chargelot/storm/blink stalker. the big issue with these types of attacks are of course the size of the map - the distance your immortals and initial units have to walk is quite large and it is difficult to hide probes against reaper or hellion play. would any of you recommend steering clear of these strategy for this map? if so, how do you recommend defending both your third and your natural throughout the midgame? | ||
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Bahajinbo
Germany488 Posts
On June 11 2013 06:21 megapants wrote: what types of builds are you all doing on star station PvT? i've had trouble getting my third base going vs upgraded bio in the past. i find it hard to push terran army away using double forge colossus on this map because its so easy to get surrounded or get dropped while trying to defend the front. i think i want to start doing some pre-medivac timing attacks like 2 immortal bust or 5 gate zealot/sentry with +1 armor, going into the mid-game with chargelot/storm/blink stalker. the big issue with these types of attacks are of course the size of the map - the distance your immortals and initial units have to walk is quite large and it is difficult to hide probes against reaper or hellion play. would any of you recommend steering clear of these strategy for this map? if so, how do you recommend defending both your third and your natural throughout the midgame? 3 colossus all-in or 1 base blink are my standard all-ins on star station. But I guess, you can also do Immortal busts. Honestly, I even like macro play on star station. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On June 11 2013 06:21 megapants wrote: what types of builds are you all doing on star station PvT? i've had trouble getting my third base going vs upgraded bio in the past. i find it hard to push terran army away using double forge colossus on this map because its so easy to get surrounded or get dropped while trying to defend the front. i think i want to start doing some pre-medivac timing attacks like 2 immortal bust or 5 gate zealot/sentry with +1 armor, going into the mid-game with chargelot/storm/blink stalker. the big issue with these types of attacks are of course the size of the map - the distance your immortals and initial units have to walk is quite large and it is difficult to hide probes against reaper or hellion play. would any of you recommend steering clear of these strategy for this map? if so, how do you recommend defending both your third and your natural throughout the midgame? I'm an asshole so i blink all-in every game on it. | ||
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czaku
Poland429 Posts
On June 11 2013 08:41 Teoita wrote: I'm an asshole so i blink all-in every game on it. Could you link me or give a simple bo wrap-up of blink allin? I tend to go macro games but blink allin is so strong, so i might consider learning it after playing this game for over 2 years. On June 11 2013 05:03 freizya wrote: what do you guys think about red city as a map for toss this season? good or bad? I find it a bit hard to hold an air play from terran or zerg. If you take the 3rd further away from natural, then you will have too long distance to main, and if you take 3rd closer to your main, then they can go from main to 3rd all the time. So mutas and strong drops harder than ever. But yes, i agree on allin part. Forcefields are strong here with so many chokes. If you can survive to lategame, then storm the chokes! Kill them with lazers! | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 11 2013 09:40 czaku wrote: Could you link me or give a simple bo wrap-up of blink allin? I tend to go macro games but blink allin is so strong, so i might consider learning it after playing this game for over 2 years. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414344. This is a PvP guide, but the build order works pretty much the same against terran. Use your MsC and stalkers to swat away any reapers and just get that really early Twilight. You'll start warping in stalkers around 6:20 and blink finishes around 6:50. | ||
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aBstractx
United States287 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On June 11 2013 06:21 megapants wrote: what types of builds are you all doing on star station PvT? i've had trouble getting my third base going vs upgraded bio in the past. i find it hard to push terran army away using double forge colossus on this map because its so easy to get surrounded or get dropped while trying to defend the front. i think i want to start doing some pre-medivac timing attacks like 2 immortal bust or 5 gate zealot/sentry with +1 armor, going into the mid-game with chargelot/storm/blink stalker. the big issue with these types of attacks are of course the size of the map - the distance your immortals and initial units have to walk is quite large and it is difficult to hide probes against reaper or hellion play. would any of you recommend steering clear of these strategy for this map? if so, how do you recommend defending both your third and your natural throughout the midgame? You could try the build I described above. I haven't perfected my version of this build yet, but I guess you can open double gas, zealot msc, third pylon should be proxied to build a robo at about 4:30 or something (you can build an extra pylon at your main to fake a non-proxy build if that matters), chrono warp gate 2-3 times, build gateways at about 4:40 or later (4:40 is if you chronoed wg x3 iirc), and if they build a reaper than build a stalker and leave it home before moving out with your zealot and msc. You can even warp in some units outside his natural, drop 4 zealots in his main, and then take down his bunker with stalker or something if he goes up his ramp with everything to defend his main... but I'm not sure if that's necessarily any better than just outright killing his stuff while abusing positioning and time warping the ramp. I guess a sentry would be a great way to kill his scvs in if tries to send them to his natural, just force field his ramp and kill them. | ||
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megapants
United States1314 Posts
On June 11 2013 07:53 Bahajinbo wrote: 3 colossus all-in or 1 base blink are my standard all-ins on star station. But I guess, you can also do Immortal busts. Honestly, I even like macro play on star station. do you recommend getting upgrades with colossus timing for this map? like single forge 1/1? or the faster 6 gates no upgrades? | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
Sorry for the double post, I don't know how to delete this and accidently quoted myself. Derp derp. | ||
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Kyoshi
Australia12 Posts
I was active in this thread for roughly the first 20 pages or w/e and last season I was top 20 masters on NA. Towards the end of the season i fell to about 30/40 and I'm playing quite badly. This season I am diamond losing to other diamonds. I have no confidence in my play what so ever. Every match up is a problem for me and I'm getting really quite frustrated with myself and the game. I'm hoping someone here can help me with some of my issues that I'm having which I think are my biggest faults. List of things I'm REALLY bad at: - General Mechanics - Multi tasking - Decision making (Seeing x amount of units and thinking oh, I can't engage that then I look at the replay and I could have stomped it - this usually happens during all-ins) - Constant Trading List of things I'm confident at: - Early game control - Precision of build executions after only a couple of games of practice - Probably some other things but I can't remember any atm. Here is a list of general questions I have: - What timings should I hellucinate a Phenoix for scouting against each race (E.g. on lastshadow's stream last night, he told a student to scan the protoss natural at 10:30 because of the general timings that had been calculated) - How the HELL do you beat Marauder/Hellbat/Medivac/Viking??!?!?!?!?!?! - Should I open against Terran without a stargate. I feel if I 1gate FE I fall behind quickly just because drops destroy me even with stalkers defending the edges of my base as well as a cannon in my mineral line. Even if they kill no probes there is still damage done and they usually push the natural too which end up either using all my sentry energy to stop them getting in or they get in, destroy all my units, my nexus and my probes. - Zerg is as big of a problem but some maps I feel zerglings are so cost effective that the 25mineral units that they are can absorb so much of my multitasking that it's silly not to spam lings. So Each Race In Total: Zerg: Not too much trouble but I have a 90% loss rate against Swarm Host (even with double robo) because of a huge tech switches that I never scout. Zerglings cause me a lot of damage (I often 1gate expo but have started forge expanding a lot more because of the constant speedling builds which trash (My) gateway openers. Terran: Used to be my best matchup, now I just get pumped because terran can get on 3base at the same time as trashing my main and natural all at once. Just lost really - I've got to a point of just leaving the game when I get terran. Protoss: Not a terrible match up. If I scout their tech choice I can usually win but I struggle against really greedy 2 base voidrays because nothing beats void rays other than void rays of very well upgraded archons/HTs. Tl:dr: Can anyone give me some links to vods that are good LADDER Builds for each race. Or you can just tell me I'm trash and I can continue mindlessly feeding diamond players points because I'm just bad. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
I try to help as often as possible, but this time I do need some help. I encountered the ghost from the past in Terran vs Protoss. Phoenix/Colossus. First of all, its a very good meta since it does shut down hellbat drops or any drop harass hard, furthermore it became a lot stronger because phoenix now got a range upgrade and the MSC is there for timewarp, so you cannot spread/stim your bio as well to at least minimize colossi damage or stutter step something forward. Well, and here's my problem. First of all he was greedy as shit, but he meta-gamed hard. He expected mine drop I guess and I was playing reaper FE into mine drop. I don't need to deal damage, because I have my 3rd behind it, but damage is always nice. Well I forced a photon overcharge without losing anything and continued to hellbat drop. Didn't do massive damage, didn't lose anything. His build was a 1 gate expansion 2 gas mothershipcore and a forge to get 2 defensive cannons. He added robo, support bay etc and got a few units and took a relatively early 3rd base. While I believe it would have been very 'EASY' to punish with a blind standard WoL bio and 2 medivac build, I believe in the current state of the game it was nearly unpunishable for me. Ofcourse I am not a perfect player but lets get to the later game. Phoenix and colossi, both massive amounts. I lost a 200/200 engagement dropping 100 supply in less than a second without storm. BelShire is a great map for it, since there is no room to move around or have a good concave. I shift-ed all colossi with my 16 vikings, but phoenix RAPE vikings. In WoL I sometimes used to build 1-2-3 thors to shoot down phoenix, didn't do this time, but my question is... how do I encounter it?-_- It seemed nearly impossible to beat. Ofcourse I know I am far from a top Terran nowadays and this is no balance whine, where's the mistake or how should I approach that composition? He was 'lacking' upgrades (defence, shields) but got +3 vs my 3-2 I think. | ||
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samuu
Germany13 Posts
If he has mass zealot then kite his army and kill his colossi after that. I also think that you probably didnt focus with vikings. Because usually the vikings kill most of the colossi before they die to the phoenix. | ||
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FlyingBeer
United States262 Posts
On June 11 2013 15:10 Type|NarutO wrote: Hey folks! I try to help as often as possible, but this time I do need some help. I encountered the ghost from the past in Terran vs Protoss. Phoenix/Colossus. First of all, its a very good meta since it does shut down hellbat drops or any drop harass hard, furthermore it became a lot stronger because phoenix now got a range upgrade and the MSC is there for timewarp, so you cannot spread/stim your bio as well to at least minimize colossi damage or stutter step something forward. Well, and here's my problem. First of all he was greedy as shit, but he meta-gamed hard. He expected mine drop I guess and I was playing reaper FE into mine drop. I don't need to deal damage, because I have my 3rd behind it, but damage is always nice. Well I forced a photon overcharge without losing anything and continued to hellbat drop. Didn't do massive damage, didn't lose anything. His build was a 1 gate expansion 2 gas mothershipcore and a forge to get 2 defensive cannons. He added robo, support bay etc and got a few units and took a relatively early 3rd base. While I believe it would have been very 'EASY' to punish with a blind standard WoL bio and 2 medivac build, I believe in the current state of the game it was nearly unpunishable for me. Ofcourse I am not a perfect player but lets get to the later game. Phoenix and colossi, both massive amounts. I lost a 200/200 engagement dropping 100 supply in less than a second without storm. BelShire is a great map for it, since there is no room to move around or have a good concave. I shift-ed all colossi with my 16 vikings, but phoenix RAPE vikings. In WoL I sometimes used to build 1-2-3 thors to shoot down phoenix, didn't do this time, but my question is... how do I encounter it?-_- It seemed nearly impossible to beat. Ofcourse I know I am far from a top Terran nowadays and this is no balance whine, where's the mistake or how should I approach that composition? He was 'lacking' upgrades (defence, shields) but got +3 vs my 3-2 I think. Just theorycrafting here, but have you considered point defense drones? If he's got enough phoenix to rape your vikings, then you're basically in an arms race to see who can amass the best air composition. For equal supply armies, phoenix beat vikings, but if you can prevent storms from going off, then those PDDs should give you the edge. By going mass phoenix and staying even with you until the late game, he's basically forced you into an air mech army, I think. For every phoenix that he builds, that's roughly the equivalent supply and cost of a viking, which means his ground army is 2 supply weaker, and your ground army can stay even with his while also being 2 supply weaker. And mass ghost-viking-raven is an incredibly powerful late-game composition. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On June 11 2013 15:28 samuu wrote: What gate units did he had? If he has mass zealot then kite his army and kill his colossi after that. I also think that you probably didnt focus with vikings. Because usually the vikings kill most of the colossi before they die to the phoenix. Next to none. 3 sentries? Few zealots? In WoL that means doom to colossus, but in HotS you can throw down 2 timewarps and 3 forcefields and bio won't do shit. It was 8-9 colossus and I think at least 20 phoenix | ||
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megapants
United States1314 Posts
On June 11 2013 15:10 Type|NarutO wrote: Hey folks! I try to help as often as possible, but this time I do need some help. I encountered the ghost from the past in Terran vs Protoss. Phoenix/Colossus. First of all, its a very good meta since it does shut down hellbat drops or any drop harass hard, furthermore it became a lot stronger because phoenix now got a range upgrade and the MSC is there for timewarp, so you cannot spread/stim your bio as well to at least minimize colossi damage or stutter step something forward. Well, and here's my problem. First of all he was greedy as shit, but he meta-gamed hard. He expected mine drop I guess and I was playing reaper FE into mine drop. I don't need to deal damage, because I have my 3rd behind it, but damage is always nice. Well I forced a photon overcharge without losing anything and continued to hellbat drop. Didn't do massive damage, didn't lose anything. His build was a 1 gate expansion 2 gas mothershipcore and a forge to get 2 defensive cannons. He added robo, support bay etc and got a few units and took a relatively early 3rd base. While I believe it would have been very 'EASY' to punish with a blind standard WoL bio and 2 medivac build, I believe in the current state of the game it was nearly unpunishable for me. Ofcourse I am not a perfect player but lets get to the later game. Phoenix and colossi, both massive amounts. I lost a 200/200 engagement dropping 100 supply in less than a second without storm. BelShire is a great map for it, since there is no room to move around or have a good concave. I shift-ed all colossi with my 16 vikings, but phoenix RAPE vikings. In WoL I sometimes used to build 1-2-3 thors to shoot down phoenix, didn't do this time, but my question is... how do I encounter it?-_- It seemed nearly impossible to beat. Ofcourse I know I am far from a top Terran nowadays and this is no balance whine, where's the mistake or how should I approach that composition? He was 'lacking' upgrades (defence, shields) but got +3 vs my 3-2 I think. hard to say without a replay, but i know that in order to get the gas to support that army, toss needs that third base, primarily the gas. sniping the nexus is preferable but killing even just the assimilators at any of your enemy's bases with a push or drop pressure might be enough to delay that production long enough for you to build up a strong enough late game army. another important thing is getting your double starport viking production going as early as possible since phoenix build so quickly, especially if chronoboosted. if you're not building 3 vikings at a time before or by the time his 2nd starport is finished, it can be hard to catch up. if you don't scout templar or archons by like 15 minutes then he's probably going phoenix or something crazy like double robo. that phoenix fleet can quickly get overwhelming, which is why i also think that ghosts make a good addition for that extra damage to phoenixes, as well as their usual utility as AOE damage dealers. getting cloak for your ghosts as well can make it harder for phoenix to pick up and snipe them. baiting his phoenix into a cloaked emp might be the opening you're looking for. something like 4-6 ghosts seems like plenty, any more and you won't have enough stuff to deal with the colossus. belshir is a pretty good map for phoenix since ground maneuverability is really limited, so phoenix are able to scout and poke and prod your army really safely. but that also means that colossus are somewhat vulnerable to your vikings as well. vikings should go out hunting for openings on colossus and even the mothership core as often as possible to soften them up for that big engagement and to prevent those annoying time warps, respectively. on another note, while drop harass theoretically seems terrible vs a phoenix strategy, it may be a tactic worth trying out. like i said you can try to deny that gas mining, but also if you can bait his phoenix away from his colossus for even a moment, you can possibly use that opportunity to snipe a colossus or take an engagement. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On June 11 2013 15:56 Type|NarutO wrote: Next to none. 3 sentries? Few zealots? In WoL that means doom to colossus, but in HotS you can throw down 2 timewarps and 3 forcefields and bio won't do shit. It was 8-9 colossus and I think at least 20 phoenix Dayum that's an insane amount of tech units, how many stargates and robos did i he have? Did you push at all during the game before maxing? I feel like you kinda let him get to a critical mass of colossi untouched at which point as you said your shit just melts, but 9 colossi take a long ass time to mass. Also it sounds odd that he would have +3 to your 3/2, i always figured phoenix/colo would just get +2 by the time terran first maxes but from what you say your first engagement was pretty late into the game. In general though i haven't seen anyone really doing much phoenix/colossus so i can't comment. Both thors and ghosts to EMP the phoenixes sound like a good idea, with EMP probably being the best since you don't have to deviate at all from your standard play. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On June 11 2013 09:40 czaku wrote: Could you link me or give a simple bo wrap-up of blink allin? I tend to go macro games but blink allin is so strong, so i might consider learning it after playing this game for over 2 years. He's fucking terrible because i was still levelling my MMR, but my build is pretty crisp: http://drop.sc/339619 It's pretty straightforward, double gas>twilight>4gates. I chrono probes 3 times, my stalker once and the rest goes to blink. | ||
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