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On June 10 2013 20:55 Teoita wrote:
It's not just the spire, it's the spire+unit count+what he's producing.
Scenario 1: he did a hydra push, now you scout a spire but he doesnt have any more roach/hydra on the map and flying over his rally point you only see a handful of units, plus no hive started. This feels like muta.
Scenario 2: he did a hydra push, you scout a spire, you see either more lair tech units being made or a hive started. His hydra/ling is still on the map. This is more likely to be corruptor/viper.
I agree it's super hard and annoying as shit, but there's more things to consider other than simply seeing a spire, which as you said isn't nearly enough.
That said, there's a good reason why everyone is doing that 3star/6void ray opening right now. Having the 3stargates already up looks a bit stronger than being on a single stargate, heading into colossus tech with 5 phoenixes maximum already up.
do you know how that 6 void 3 sg build goes? like gas timings, amount of units, and sg timings?
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Italy12247 Posts
Not off the top of my head, i recommend watching sos' games in wcs finals.
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On June 13 2013 04:09 aldochillbro wrote:
do you know how that 6 void 3 sg build goes? like gas timings, amount of units, and sg timings?
From Sos vs Soulkey Game 1 on Whirlwind:
Standard Nexus first
From Gateway: Zealot, Sentry, Sentry
33: Stargate (before sentry and WG)
34: Pylon
36: x2 Gas at natural
Pylon
@100% Stargate: Phoenix
Pylon
Void Ray
MsC
Pylon
2nds Void Ray
Pylon
8:20: 3rd NEXUS (pylon and 2 canon at 3rd)
8:45: x2 Stargate
9:20: +1 Air Attack and +1 Shield
9:40: TC
10:40 Charge and 3 additional Gateway
11:00 x2 gas at 3rd
Templar Archive and 3 additionnal Gateway
Sos hit Soulkey's main at around 12:00 with VR and MsC
13:00: Storm and 4 additionnal Gateway
13:45: Robot
15:00: Sos push an kill Soulkey with VR + some Storm on muta
Edit: Sos used a similar build on games 3 and 4 buit lost. if your are more confident with 1gate FE in PvZ, you can check Sos vs Symbol Game 1 or Alicia's games vs Zerg (most of his win come from this kind of build).
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I'm a diamond protoss player. I'm learning to use Naniwa's gateway expand into zeal/immortal all-in, and I'm struggling to hold off early ling aggression. 10pool timing is fine, you see it before cancelling your zealot, but 15 pool timing is getting me.
The build I am using is here:
http://imbabuilds.com/hots-protoss/hots-pvz/pvz-naniwas-zealotimmortal-all-in/
Where I run into issues is around the time I make the Robotics. I am just starting a forge at my natural, I have no zealots, my mcore is halfway to his base and just seeing the lings spawning now, and I have no time to react. What adjustments can I make? I'm practising with a buddy mostly on Akilon Wastes, and spawning a quick gate/forge and probe walling is very economically expensive and barely holds it off.
How can I make better adjustments? Should I scout after making the core, slowing the build down slightly but giving me more time to react?
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On June 13 2013 00:21 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 00:12 xAdra wrote:
Regarding to the new ladder map Korhal Floating Island, how should your play change when you spawn 11-5? I'm loving that map but that spawn really makes the game kinda wonky, especially in PvZ. Dude, that spawn is SO screwed up lolol. The best thing I can suggest is doing a safe 1-gate FE into a turtle style. Those spawns are so precarious that you really can't get away with a razor thin defense to do a big all-in or anything. That particular location lends itself to tempest turtling, at least.
Thank you for answering- and yes, I think you're right. I could train the tempest turtle style whenever those spawns come up, so I guess it's like a blessing in disguise- a chance to widen my skillbox!
Is the tempest turtle style done on 2 bases? I can't seem to find any vods of this that dont require subscriptions to GOM..
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How should protoss respond should they scout that a zerg has no third and a fast speed and is still mining gas? Specifically should i be hallucinating a pheonix and at what time (assuming i can't get a probe in to see his tech)?
edit: Sorry i was a bit vague.
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On June 13 2013 14:38 Turbogangsta wrote:
How should protoss respond should they scout that a zerg has no third and a fast speed and is still mining gas? Specifically should i be hallucinating a pheonix and at what time (assuming i can't get a probe in to see his tech)?
edit: Sorry i was a bit vague.
i assume this is after ffe - my response is to quickly get out MSC, sentry, and 3rd assimilator before dropping down a stargate, followed by 4th assimilator and get out a void ray ASAP. stay active with your probe scouting, if you don't scout a 3rd base from zerg by 5:30 - 6:00, or if you just can't confirm it because of speedlings denying you from leaving your natural, then i also recommend getting a second cannon started before dropping stargate to be safe against banelings as well as those ~40 speedling allins. the faster third gas lets you start pumping out void rays right as stargate finishes and 4th gas lets you also continue producing sentries, which should be enough to hold off any attacks as well as get you properly situated to take your third base or start teching to storm or colossus.
use hallucination to scout for any attack that might be on the way, as well as zerg's third base, lair, and additional gas timings. get a scout into zerg's base at 8:00 at the latest - scouting lair means that he shouldn't be able to break you right now and you can probably safely take a third base on most maps. then you can transition into 3 stargate voidrays, blink stalker/colossus, or even zealot archon, depending on what zerg decides to go into.
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On June 13 2013 09:59 1a2a3aPro wrote:I'm a diamond protoss player. I'm learning to use Naniwa's gateway expand into zeal/immortal all-in, and I'm struggling to hold off early ling aggression. 10pool timing is fine, you see it before cancelling your zealot, but 15 pool timing is getting me. The build I am using is here: http://imbabuilds.com/hots-protoss/hots-pvz/pvz-naniwas-zealotimmortal-all-in/Where I run into issues is around the time I make the Robotics. I am just starting a forge at my natural, I have no zealots, my mcore is halfway to his base and just seeing the lings spawning now, and I have no time to react. What adjustments can I make? I'm practising with a buddy mostly on Akilon Wastes, and spawning a quick gate/forge and probe walling is very economically expensive and barely holds it off. How can I make better adjustments? Should I scout after making the core, slowing the build down slightly but giving me more time to react?
I usually just stick a probe in the choke, and keep the mothership core at home. Usually 15pool comes before you've laid any buildings down, and if he gets into the base the standard gate FE response is to build a stalker, however, that will slow down your gas timings, so I'm not sure about how that'll pan out in regards to the timings in your build.
If I'm not mistaken, Naniwa only executed this build on Neo Planet S, so the issues he accounted for in that map might be slightly different on other maps.
Regarding scouting, since you are just going 1gas, and robo+forge, your options for adjustment is very limited, so I think you just keep your MsC at home, in one of the replays featured in Day9's Daily on this specific build, the first scout Naniwa sends is his warp prism. So yeah, I'd just trust the build and execute it as crisply as possible.
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Hey guys, looking to get some help with PvZ:
http://sc2replaystats.com/replay/52539
Opened gate expand, did light harassment with phoenixes and got my third up successfully
Saw hydras, went colossus for ground but got overwhelmed eventually. What should I have done?
- no voids?
- double robo?
- switched into storm zealot archon?
Thanks a bunch!
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In PvZ, has anyone experimented with 4-gate into the 2 Immo 2 Colossus push? I got the idea from a clanmate, but his own build isn't refined. I like the idea, but I'd prefer to get it from as strong a player as possible. The clanmate does it off a gate expand, which I think makes sense as the early forge isn't as useful in the 2-2-2, since an FFE 4-gate gets +1 very quickly, but +1 Armor is pretty useless against Roaches and Hydras and Corruptors, and if the opponent goes for a ling defense he's gonna die whether you have +1 Armor or not.
If anyone strong has experimented with this, I'd be in your debt if you had a replay I can look at.
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On June 14 2013 14:09 Salivanth wrote:
In PvZ, has anyone experimented with 4-gate into the 2 Immo 2 Colossus push? I got the idea from a clanmate, but his own build isn't refined. I like the idea, but I'd prefer to get it from as strong a player as possible. The clanmate does it off a gate expand, which I think makes sense as the early forge isn't as useful in the 2-2-2, since an FFE 4-gate gets +1 very quickly, but +1 Armor is pretty useless against Roaches and Hydras and Corruptors, and if the opponent goes for a ling defense he's gonna die whether you have +1 Armor or not.
If anyone strong has experimented with this, I'd be in your debt if you had a replay I can look at.
i think this is a link your looking for . Btw it was in the front page of TL
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=416819
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On June 13 2013 14:38 Turbogangsta wrote:
How should protoss respond should they scout that a zerg has no third and a fast speed and is still mining gas? Specifically should i be hallucinating a pheonix and at what time (assuming i can't get a probe in to see his tech)?
edit: Sorry i was a bit vague.
Yes, get hallucinated phx to scout. Or hide your scouting probe real well and scout his 3rd around 6/7mins. If you see speedlings or early gas mining, you should react and know what is coming. greedy zerg normally don't take gas that early.. obviously he is going to do 2 base play. drop more canon to prevent 2 base all in (roach/lings or bane/speedlings bust or nydus worm all-in)
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On June 14 2013 14:09 Salivanth wrote:
In PvZ, has anyone experimented with 4-gate into the 2 Immo 2 Colossus push? I got the idea from a clanmate, but his own build isn't refined. I like the idea, but I'd prefer to get it from as strong a player as possible. The clanmate does it off a gate expand, which I think makes sense as the early forge isn't as useful in the 2-2-2, since an FFE 4-gate gets +1 very quickly, but +1 Armor is pretty useless against Roaches and Hydras and Corruptors, and if the opponent goes for a ling defense he's gonna die whether you have +1 Armor or not.
If anyone strong has experimented with this, I'd be in your debt if you had a replay I can look at.
2-2 immortal/colo is not recommended for high level play. if it is scouted, it is easy to counter. and it is very force field dependent and very much on timing. any fail force field placement, it's basically good game. i would recommend soul train. although it is also very force field dependent, it is easier to execute and of cos, it depends on good micro and maps with narrow choke.
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Italy12247 Posts
On June 14 2013 15:10 SkyBlaze wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 14:09 Salivanth wrote:
In PvZ, has anyone experimented with 4-gate into the 2 Immo 2 Colossus push? I got the idea from a clanmate, but his own build isn't refined. I like the idea, but I'd prefer to get it from as strong a player as possible. The clanmate does it off a gate expand, which I think makes sense as the early forge isn't as useful in the 2-2-2, since an FFE 4-gate gets +1 very quickly, but +1 Armor is pretty useless against Roaches and Hydras and Corruptors, and if the opponent goes for a ling defense he's gonna die whether you have +1 Armor or not.
If anyone strong has experimented with this, I'd be in your debt if you had a replay I can look at. i think this is a link your looking for . Btw it was in the front page of TL http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=416819
That article doesn't include any 4gate zealot pressure first. I figure it might be doable but i have never done it personally.
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Yeah I thought you might be able to add it in , not having it is not a big deal for that build as well.
but i don't see why you would need it, if you going to all-in anyways. I guess for weaker econ for the all-in push.
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lately i've been doing many 1 base all-in against T. 2 base all-in against Z.. and pretty ez-pz lol
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On June 14 2013 16:07 Kim Hyuna wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 14:09 Salivanth wrote:
In PvZ, has anyone experimented with 4-gate into the 2 Immo 2 Colossus push? I got the idea from a clanmate, but his own build isn't refined. I like the idea, but I'd prefer to get it from as strong a player as possible. The clanmate does it off a gate expand, which I think makes sense as the early forge isn't as useful in the 2-2-2, since an FFE 4-gate gets +1 very quickly, but +1 Armor is pretty useless against Roaches and Hydras and Corruptors, and if the opponent goes for a ling defense he's gonna die whether you have +1 Armor or not.
If anyone strong has experimented with this, I'd be in your debt if you had a replay I can look at. 2-2 immortal/colo is not recommended for high level play. if it is scouted, it is easy to counter. and it is very force field dependent and very much on timing. any fail force field placement, it's basically good game. i would recommend soul train. although it is also very force field dependent, it is easier to execute and of cos, it depends on good micro and maps with narrow choke.
If this is the case then why has the build been used repeatedly in proleague and WCS  It was shown in the guide that even when players knew it was coming they still lost to it.
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Austria24422 Posts
I actually think it's only really good at higher levels. Lower levels you might not be able to scout properly/react to scouting information and then run straight into a random muta build or mass roach
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Italy12247 Posts
With the straight robo variation maybe (although it should still be decent), but if you do the stargate thing everyone will make 8 spores and go hydras or try to go mutas without enough drones so your timing should kill them.
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So I'd be better off just doing the Stargate variation then?
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EPT
