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Austria24417 Posts
I've tried both twice and won all four. But I'd say the stargate variations gave me a lot more freedom, kept them in the dark for much longer and one of the games the guy tried to ling/hydra bust me which... surprisingly didn't work.
Am I wrong in thinking that you could just take a super safe third off the stargate version if zerg figures it out and prepares well for it? I'm thinking you could just resume probe production and pump out void rays in case of corruptors, immortals in case of mass roach and colossi for roach/hydra or swarm hosts. + phoenixes for muta of course.
I guess your economy will be pretty delayed but I guess you'd be fine if zerg has to invest heavily in defense?
The straight robo would just die to mutas I assume.
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Italy12246 Posts
Nah you can't take a third because your upgrades are late and your probe count is so low, you have to do tons of damage with your timing anyway. If the Zerg is smart he could actually come and bust you with roach/hydra/corruptor and you'll end up having even less units than normal because your econ is so bad compared to a stargate expand build.
I mean, you can try to do that if you can't break him or whatever, but it's a tough spot to play from.
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Hey guys, i recently got promoted to diamond, and i thought my PvT was good beforehand, but after the promotion and the better oponnents i really struggle in PvT. The reason being: drops. And especially multiple drops at the same time, or a drop combined with a push at the front.
I am really terrible at splitting my army, knowing how much to warp in, having seperate hotkeys for 3 different groups of units, knowing when/where to build cannons, and macroing while trying to deal with drops. Also knowing when to pull probes.
Can anyone give me some information about how to better deal with this? i know this is a very broad question.
Usually i open with some sort of 1 gate expand, in to robo, then double forge, then twillight, then HT tech, while also adding some gates in there of course. I usually skip a lot of units in the earlier to get tech and gates up first, while keeping an eye on his army and moveouts.
Any thoughts?
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On June 14 2013 19:47 sebsejr wrote:
Hey guys, i recently got promoted to diamond, and i thought my PvT was good beforehand, but after the promotion and the better oponnents i really struggle in PvT. The reason being: drops. And especially multiple drops at the same time, or a drop combined with a push at the front.
I am really terrible at splitting my army, knowing how much to warp in, having seperate hotkeys for 3 different groups of units, knowing when/where to build cannons, and macroing while trying to deal with drops. Also knowing when to pull probes.
Can anyone give me some information about how to better deal with this? i know this is a very broad question.
Usually i open with some sort of 1 gate expand, in to robo, then double forge, then twillight, then HT tech, while also adding some gates in there of course. I usually skip a lot of units in the earlier to get tech and gates up first, while keeping an eye on his army and moveouts.
Any thoughts?
Drops are strong right now and dealing with them well is critical. I think your opening is fine. Something to suggest is that you can keep your whole army ready for drops, half in the main half in the nat or a third of your army in each if you have 3 bases. Just by keeping observers around the map and controlling towers you can know when a big push is coming and then get your shit together, otherwise they may as well wait for drops. As for cannons, 2 in each base once you take your third is a solid timing, because it is then when drops might start to come thick and fast. You can put them in mineral line or on the outside of your base where the drops will come in from, it's personal preference. HT are great for stopping drops, you just gotta react fast and use feedback. As for drops at the same time as a push, leave a HT and couple of stalkers in each base and combined with cannons this should be fine. 1 medivac is held fine with this, 2 medivacs just warp in a bunch of stalkers/zealots. It just takes practice, and you'll get better for sure just by being forced to deal with them over and over again. Observers in the dead space and looking at your minimap a lot is critical, so practice that in games as well.
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On June 13 2013 19:37 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 09:59 1a2a3aPro wrote:I'm a diamond protoss player. I'm learning to use Naniwa's gateway expand into zeal/immortal all-in, and I'm struggling to hold off early ling aggression. 10pool timing is fine, you see it before cancelling your zealot, but 15 pool timing is getting me. The build I am using is here: http://imbabuilds.com/hots-protoss/hots-pvz/pvz-naniwas-zealotimmortal-all-in/Where I run into issues is around the time I make the Robotics. I am just starting a forge at my natural, I have no zealots, my mcore is halfway to his base and just seeing the lings spawning now, and I have no time to react. What adjustments can I make? I'm practising with a buddy mostly on Akilon Wastes, and spawning a quick gate/forge and probe walling is very economically expensive and barely holds it off. How can I make better adjustments? Should I scout after making the core, slowing the build down slightly but giving me more time to react? I usually just stick a probe in the choke, and keep the mothership core at home. Usually 15pool comes before you've laid any buildings down, and if he gets into the base the standard gate FE response is to build a stalker, however, that will slow down your gas timings, so I'm not sure about how that'll pan out in regards to the timings in your build. If I'm not mistaken, Naniwa only executed this build on Neo Planet S, so the issues he accounted for in that map might be slightly different on other maps. Regarding scouting, since you are just going 1gas, and robo+forge, your options for adjustment is very limited, so I think you just keep your MsC at home, in one of the replays featured in Day9's Daily on this specific build, the first scout Naniwa sends is his warp prism. So yeah, I'd just trust the build and execute it as crisply as possible.
Not a bad idea.
Any decent Toss players out there, is there a build that still puts on some pressure but isn't so all-in? I fear using this build and getting to high diamond/masters league, but then not knowing how to play "proper" PvZ.
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Italy12246 Posts
4Gate +1 pressure and its variants; in HotS the phoenix variation is very powerful.
Flying used it vs Roro in Bel'shir Vestige in their group stage GSL match.
Also yeah when doing naniwa's 1gate fe always keep your msc at home. There's nothing useful it's going to do across the map anyway.
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PvZ on red city, I scout on 9 and we are cross map. When i get to his base I see he went hatch first. I nexus first and follow with standard FFE. He then builds a 3 third hatch before pool, the 3rd hatch is at the bottom of this main ramp.
Since cross map red city is huge, and a ground attack might not be the best idea, I spend my first 150 gas on SG and go into voids using chorno boost non-stop on them. By the time I get to his base with my first stalker/MSC/void he has 4 queens and 10 lings.
What should I have done. It seems he took and gamble and just auto-wins cause the map is so large I can't put any real pressure on him.
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You could have dropped a forge asap and cannon him for an easy win. If not that than you should have spent your chrono on probes and play standard, 2 hatch before the pool doesn't put the zerg as much ahead as you may think it does.
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On June 15 2013 11:49 habermas wrote:
You could have dropped a forge asap and cannon him for an easy win. If not that than you should have spent your chrono on probes and play standard, 2 hatch before the pool doesn't put the zerg as much ahead as you may think it does.
The forge just doesn't make sense to me, cause all I see is hatch first. I have to decide based on that info if im going nexus or forge. Hatch first=nexus first
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
That's not the logic i used to use
14pool on most maps = nex first possibility
earlier pool, certain maps, attempt at hatch first scouted or nothing scouted = forge for safety/cannoning if he's greedy with the h first
If you nex first as a reaction to hatch first and then he goes 3hatch before pool you're in a sucky situation*
*Ahah, i just read up and this is exactly what you said. I'm no expert though
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On June 15 2013 13:04 Cyro wrote:
That's not the logic i used to use
14pool on most maps = nex first possibility
earlier pool, certain maps, attempt at hatch first scouted or nothing scouted = forge for safety/cannoning if he's greedy with the h first
If you nex first as a reaction to hatch first and then he goes 3hatch before pool you're in a sucky situation*
*Ahah, i just read up and this is exactly what you said. I'm no expert though
Ya it just feels like a bad spot, because now im playing a macro game on the biggest map with a zerg who went super greedy.
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Italy12246 Posts
You can cannon rush 3hatch before pool (and even hatch first i think, should ask rsvp) with nex first too. You will get the forge anyway, so might as well. His lings will be insanely late. In that spot, that would have probably been the correct decision, using a second probe to help your scouting worker.
Also a void ray will never ever deny a zerg's third these days, what he had by the time your void got there is pretty realistic and has little to do with openings (altough, you should never ever ever let a z get away with 3 hatch before pool).
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Hello,
I have a brief question regarding opinions on TC/Storm openings PvT.
Do people still do this in recent times with the prevailance of Marauder-Hellbat? (If they do, what are the stylistic details that makes it viable?)
And if not, do you guys think it will have a resurgence if the hellbat nerf goes into effect?
Colossus-Timewarp just feels a lot more intimidating to the terran, making a third base much easier, and if he goes hellbat, it doesn't really instantly rape your core units as it would in a chargelot composition.
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Italy12246 Posts
I still do it every PvT and it works just as well, PvT is my best matchup atm. You just need to be on top of your micro and if you can add a couple more archons.
The advantages of the templar stuff are that your robo build time is free, allowing you to invest into an obs network to hold drops more easily (i have like 5 obs on the map when i take a third) as well as a warp prism to drop shit while he's doing his medivac timing for example; in general you can take a bit of a faster third because it's easier to know the terran's positioning, and invest into base defense less as well (you have the obs network to spot anyway). Finally, you can hit some sick immortal/archon/zealot timings vs mech.
But then again, i've been bitching about not enough p doing 2base templar forever :D
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Ah, I'm so happy it's still working out for you. Do you favour archons over rushing storm when taking the 3rd?
I think my paranoia has made me turtle even more on 2base in HotS rather than expanding aggressively, which would have a huge impact on the unit\gas count etc.
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Italy12246 Posts
Nah i make like 4-6 templar and then i just add 2-3 archons if i see he's going crazy on the hellbats. It delays my colossus tech a bit but i don't care too badly about it tbh.
That paranoia imo is cured very easily by legal map hacks, ie observers everywhere :D
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Your descriptions of 2-base Templar intrigue me, Teoita. Do you go straight for Templar, or do you get a Colossus without Range first?
When do you switch into Colossus production and range?
When does Storm need to finish? Do you need it to hold the Medivac timing, or can Feedback into Archons serve that purpose?
Admittedly, this is all largely curiosity motivated...I don't consider myself skilled enough to pull the opening off.
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On June 15 2013 20:51 Salivanth wrote:
Your descriptions of 2-base Templar intrigue me, Teoita. Do you go straight for Templar, or do you get a Colossus without Range first?
When do you switch into Colossus production and range?
When does Storm need to finish? Do you need it to hold the Medivac timing, or can Feedback into Archons serve that purpose?
Admittedly, this is all largely curiosity motivated...I don't consider myself skilled enough to pull the opening off.
Why don't we just go the whole hog and ask for some reps if he's kind enough <3
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Italy12246 Posts
I pretty much copied Parting's build vs Flash, it's the super standard 3gate robo/single forge/charge/templar.
My current build is 2 obs before twilight council and charge before archives. I get 2 sentries and a msc in early game rather than 3 sentries like i used to in WoL. I get 2 templar in time for his medivac timing which can feedback and/or turn into an archon, after which i get storm. Combined with nexus cannon it makes the defense pretty easy; you don't need storm at all to hold medivac timings as chargelots are enough. While i'm taking my third i go up to 3-4 observers (dependig on the map). After i establish my third i generally go up to 11 gates. I get a second forge when i see his third cc.
I also get a warp prism out of my robo after my 5gates and before i get the 6th and 7th to drop 4 chargelots in the terran's main when he's about one third of the way across the map with his medivac timing. It's a great tool throughout the game, and it punishes people having their army always out on the map threatening doom drops and whatnot. You'd be surprised how many people just panic, lose scv's, screw up their medivac timing and lose to a counter while im taking a third. It feels great to punish sloppy play like that.
As far as switching into colossus, i don't have that down too well yet (at least vs the hellbat stuff) since in many of my games i'm actually killing them with pure gateway units, which is a great feeling. As a general rule, you want a nice 3base economy and a healthy templar count, say about 6 plus a few archons. In some games the Terran plays super aggressively like Flash would, and then you have to be conservative focusing on defending and teching to a single robo. If the T plays passively you can go straight up double robo colossus, which is as lethal as ever.
edit: i'll see if i can find replays.
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Italy12246 Posts
Here we go:
1) http://drop.sc/343442 i win outright while we are taking our thirds simply by having better multitasking and execution.
2) http://drop.sc/343441 vs WM drop. The only game in over 20 i've taken off dwf, lol.
3) http://drop.sc/339618 i end up ahead so i can just finish him off before switching into colo with zealot warpins and a nice timing
4) http://drop.sc/343440 vs a wierdass hellbat timing, the warp prism wins me the game again
5) http://drop.sc/343439 it's not the same build (i was doing zest's immortal/archon timing), but it shows how this general style can hit a sick timing vs mech if he's trying to take a third
6) http://drop.sc/343438 standard game vs bio/hellbat, i play greedy in response to his 3cc and lose because my macro goes to shit. If i had made 5-6 more gates and engaged better i could have zealoted his ass and killed him easily.
7) http://drop.sc/340374 standard game vs pure bio; monk's micro was off because he was lagging but this is what a more passive game looks like.
Note that the build isn't particularly refined as in some of those i was still figuring a few things out and in others i'm forced to react to things like mech or 3cc, but that's how it's supposed to go in general. Overall, i think this playstyle is very, very solid, and should be even stronger come the next patch for obvious reasons.
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EPT
