EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 122
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Redfish
United States142 Posts
On June 16 2013 13:33 SC2John wrote: I posted this earlier and didn't get an answer: How are protosses dealing with all of the new threats coming their way in PvT? It seems like terran is always opening with a fast gas and can easily transition into a plethora of different options including mine drops, hellbat drops, marine/mine attacks, heavy reaper openings (3+), hellions, or just a standard reaper expand, and it's hard for me to get the info I need early enough. 2nd question: What's the proper response to scouting mech in PvT? Initial pushes that include a lot of marines feel very hard to deal with including marine/mine pushes and marine/tank pushes; because of these pushes, it feels very risky to immediately expand to a 3rd in response. I've tried immediately going double robo colossus/immortal or stargate immediately into tempests, but both feel a little late to deal with the push. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the army that deals with marine/mine/tank doesn't do well against tank/hellbat and I can't seem to find time to make either army; is there a good in-between response? Mid-Masters NA Toss last season, for reference. 1st Question: Scouting through early aggression. The way I've been opening is based off of a post I saw awhile ago put together by Perfect. It's a zealot/stalker/msc poke that expands at 27 right as the MSC comes out. I start a second stalker and rally it to my mineral line if I haven't seen an SCV scout (usually means a reaper is coming), then add a second gas and start WG as the trio is making its way across the map. I gate scout with the probe on 4 player maps (just to check for location) and don't probe scout on 2 player maps. You will find out what is going on with either your zealot/stalker or MSC, and if they put down a low ground CC, you will punish it so insanely hard, especially if their bunker is not finished or if they skipped it. The whole point of this is to see if it's a 1 base gas opener or if it's an early expo. Either way, adding a robo and then 2 more gates will ensure that you can deal with whatever it is coming your way. You can recover well enough to fend off reapers or hellions, the three gates plus an obs and nexus cannon can deal with drops of marines/mines/hellbats/etc. Teoita has posted in here a few times about going for TC/Charge/up to 5 gates and armor upgrades directly after robo, and I have to say I'm absolutely loving that style. I used to be a big proponent of going directly for Colossus, but the problem is that the maps we have now are terrible for that. Bio units can stim and focus fire colossi down so fast, especially if they're dropped on top of them, and sometimes Colossi have a really awkward time going in between bases. The advantage that going Charge/Armor has is that your tech that you have invested in will always be exactly where you need it in order to defend the drops, it gives you a quicker path to put cannons in your mineral lines for defense, and your robo fac is free to send out a warp prism for a counterdrop and more observers to cover the map. You don't have to worry about your expensive tech units being out of places, you warp them in where you need them, and a zealot with guardian shield and +1 takes so little damage from marines. 2nd Question: This is rather unorthodox I think, but I actually go up to 3 or 4 robos and expand rather aggressively, setting up a lot of pylons on the map. Mech's major weakness is its immobility so I get a bunch of observers and warp prisms out, drop on the production and build up a big number of immortals and a handful of templars. I've heard of people getting mass air to work but with vikings and thors, I haven't been able to pull it off. If you can use the threat of drops to keep their army distracted or at home, you can secure the economic advantage and hopefully catch the terran army in a bad position with a strong flank. Hope this helps! | ||
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Jackowacko
59 Posts
after seeing huk destroy the na ladder with two accounts, aiur and eghuk, i noticed that he sometimes used a build quite often including nexus first into some kind of stargate, into like 6-7 gates and owning terrans pretty badly including people like polt, koma, and random GM terrans. sadly i skipped huks streamathons due to work and the like and I could not check out this sick play. vods were not saved as well, so... he... he..? Would be absolutely awesome if anyone who ever watched HuK do this (on neo planet s or something I believe, forgot the maps honestly) could show me the build or something. It's a pvt build, nexus first into some kind of stargate, getting sentries, and like +6-7 gates and (I'm guessing), allining the terran with a lot of units at like 10 minutes. Thanks EDIT: He also seems to use a fast 1 g fe into 3 gate robo immortal bust that owns a lot of top 16 GM terrans which I'm interested in. Can anyone elaborate on that build/show? Whenever I do it and copy the build order I die, even if my forcefields are semi-decent (playing at 1.4-1.5k~ master level last season). | ||
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
On June 16 2013 13:18 Wombat_NI wrote: Having a somewhat irrational love of double-ups, gateway heavy styles, has anyone shown any good, solid replicable dual-forge PvZ? What would such a build even look like? Having been without the ability to play or even post here for quite a while, I've been trying to figure out a vague schematic in my brain. I had thought of doing it off a gateway expand, with a Zealot pressure a la Naniwa and using that as a platform to go for a chargelot/immortal/templar composition like I've seen sOs have success with. Problem I ran into is that being safe kind of ruins any of the potency. Sticking in a Stargate and investing in Phoenixes slows down the ability to get the heavy ups with storm that I find crush most Zerg midgame comps when I can get them going. However, as I said to get that comp with an upgrade lead and storm I really found I had to cut a lot of corners in terms of Phoenix production and whatnot, and Mutas are rearing their ugly head and causing me great pain. I've seen SaSe try it in numerous streamed PvZs, but he lost most of the game I saw him try. Perhaps I caught him on a bad day though as some of his builds are killer. I've seen naniwa on group stage 1 and Tod against Stephano in group stage 2 (dreamhack) do gate-expand, 4-gate, transition into robo, double forge, a third and chargelot/archon. No stargate or colossus. Maybe if you catch more of their PvZ you can understand the build better. It honestly didn't look very good, but again, nothing looks too good agains Zerg this days.. | ||
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3LILpigs
Philippines16 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On June 17 2013 10:26 3LILpigs wrote: so 1st season my PvT is my best match up, used tails dt drop opening, 2nd season my PvT went around 50/50 when i used the mamacore opening by rain, not i have only won 5 games vs T, having problems with early aggression with terran, the drops are simply killing me when i get my thirds and im in trouble of being demoted next season lol. any safe opening vs terran that allows minimal harras and better early game D, thanks guys What you are saying doesn't make much sense. If you're dying to drops when you try to take your third, that's definitely not "early" aggression. You have to be clearer than that. There's a huge difference between early aggression without medivacs, gas first drops, barracks first widow mine drops, and 10 minute mark drops. | ||
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S7EFEN
86 Posts
On June 17 2013 10:26 3LILpigs wrote: so 1st season my PvT is my best match up, used tails dt drop opening, 2nd season my PvT went around 50/50 when i used the mamacore opening by rain, not i have only won 5 games vs T, having problems with early aggression with terran, the drops are simply killing me when i get my thirds and im in trouble of being demoted next season lol. any safe opening vs terran that allows minimal harras and better early game D, thanks guys Faster robotics vs any sort of gas opener for obs - many toss have been opening with a cannon per min line as that's good vs any harass opener (banshee, hellbat/ mine drops) Also better obs spread on offense/defense to allow you to spread your army better, multiple stalkers and a few zealots in the main works well. Faster HTs or mass stalker/colossi is common but observer spread is key. also, delay your third till you are comfortable holding any pushes. | ||
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fapy
Australia52 Posts
As soon as i recognise it do i have to spam cannons? go to 4sg off 2 and 1/2 base and spend all my resources on phoenix, cutting everything else? | ||
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Bahajinbo
Germany488 Posts
On June 17 2013 13:38 fapy wrote: How do you deal with mass Muta/corrupter? Generally i open sg and take a third ~9 minutes, when i see the spire i put down x3 sg and pump phoenix. The way I see it is the zerg will reach crit mass of muta/cor before your third econ fully kicks in, overwhelming you on 3 SG and won't let you get the 5 sg you need to beat vs 5 base muta. As soon as i recognise it do i have to spam cannons? go to 4sg off 2 and 1/2 base and spend all my resources on phoenix, cutting everything else? I think nearly every Protoss right now has problems with muta / corruptor. It's insanely mobile... I'd say you answer muta/corruptor with phoenix + blink stalkers and eventually storm. But it's just stupidly difficult to engage muta/corruptor properly. I hope someone has a good and simple (!) solution for this playstyle someday. Since muta regeneration has kicked in I nearly never win against zergs with mutas. -_- | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
How do you practice? To be specific: How much of your time is spent, ratio-wise: Playing specific strats or against specific strats repeatedly, to learn to execute them or play against them. Playing against practice partners without either of you being constrained to a particular build. Laddering. Analysing replays / theorycrafting / talking to practice partners or teammates over how to improve. Anything else major that I've missed. Do you believe this to be optimal for you? What would you change if you had more patience/practice partners, if anything? Do you recommend this to a lower-level player like me? I'm currently diamond, was mid-masters last season. If you were at my level, would you change your approach to practice? If so, how? If there's any other advice you can give me on practicing habits not covered in my questioning, what is it? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
2) Hmm i'd say i split ladder and practice with team mates about 50/50. Generally on ladder i practice builds i already know, and i figure new stuff out with team mates. That said i hardly have enough time to practice for most of the year so that's pretty annoying. Other than that, it works out pretty well, and having team mates to talk to is really nice to trade ideas etc. If you just ladder, finding a team would most benefit you because you get to talk to more people with different styles, get to practice specific stuff if you need it, play bo3's in tournaments and clan wars (which is a whole different world from ladder), plus it makes the whole game really fun in general. You should see the PvP's i play with your best Z, it's some hilarious shit. | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
If I may ask...what do you mean here? All I can translate Z to is Zerg, and no matter how I parse it, I can't figure it out. "You should see the PvP's I play, using your best Zerg."That doesn't make sense, why would me using Zerg matter if I'm watching a game?" "You should see the PvP's I play with the best Zerg in your clan." "But...you told me I should find a team if I only ladder, thus implying you don't know I'm part of a clan, so how can you know the best Zerg in my clan?" I'm just not seeing what that one means. Thanks for the advice, as well  | ||
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vovinam
China10 Posts
I feel like blink doesnt work because once they got 5-6 phoenixes, they can just lift your stuff up and sent in zealots. and ms insta die to 4+phoenixes | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On June 17 2013 20:52 Salivanth wrote: You should see the PvP's i play with your best Z, it's some hilarious shit. If I may ask...what do you mean here? All I can translate Z to is Zerg, and no matter how I parse it, I can't figure it out. "You should see the PvP's I play, using your best Zerg."That doesn't make sense, why would me using Zerg matter if I'm watching a game?" "You should see the PvP's I play with the best Zerg in your clan." "But...you told me I should find a team if I only ladder, thus implying you don't know I'm part of a clan, so how can you know the best Zerg in my clan?" I'm just not seeing what that one means. Thanks for the advice, as well Basically we cheese the hell out of each other and generally do random ass shit to relax after playing seriously. Makes practicing way less stressful. edit: at sated, some players have been actually going 2base tempest with their chargelot/archon after seeing a robo bay. Sos actually did it on newkirk on proleague once; i'm not sure who his opponent was but you should find that easily if you tlpd it. I feel like if you are going to go tempest you might as well do it off 2bases since you need a ton of time to build your tempest count, but i'm not entirely sure how solid that style is. | ||
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hipo
France482 Posts
On June 18 2013 04:30 Teoita wrote: Basically we cheese the hell out of each other and generally do random ass shit to relax after playing seriously. Makes practicing way less stressful. edit: at sated, some players have been actually going 2base tempest with their chargelot/archon after seeing a robo bay. Sos actually did it on newkirk on proleague once; i'm not sure who his opponent was but you should find that easily if you tlpd it. I feel like if you are going to go tempest you might as well do it off 2bases since you need a ton of time to build your tempest count, but i'm not entirely sure how solid that style is. Sos vs Rain in R4. By the way, today's games between Jangbi and Bisu also featured Tempest (on both side). | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
On June 17 2013 19:39 Salivanth wrote: A more meta question than you're probably used to in this thread, this one is aimed only at Teoita, rsvp, or any Protosses at GM level. I'm not sure if this question belongs here, as it's fairly race-neutral, but I know I can trust you guys because you've been right every single damn time. How do you practice? To be specific: How much of your time is spent, ratio-wise: Playing specific strats or against specific strats repeatedly, to learn to execute them or play against them. Playing against practice partners without either of you being constrained to a particular build. Laddering. Analysing replays / theorycrafting / talking to practice partners or teammates over how to improve. Anything else major that I've missed. Do you believe this to be optimal for you? What would you change if you had more patience/practice partners, if anything? Do you recommend this to a lower-level player like me? I'm currently diamond, was mid-masters last season. If you were at my level, would you change your approach to practice? If so, how? If there's any other advice you can give me on practicing habits not covered in my questioning, what is it? mass ladder is probably how most practice unless you are on a pro team with a lot of connections/teammates to play customs with this season I worked my ass off and aimed for 8 hours of just playing...from there I spend 2 hours on replays...rest on watching vods/streams...I sleep 6-8 hours since I'm laddering mostly I can only play a specific strat...I rarely get the chance to play against a specific strat but that method is also effective if you are given that opportunity idk if it's optimal...I personally think if you have more practice partners, then it will be effective to face against a specific strat but I think ladder is fine to play a specific strat because ladder is more random...the downside to ladder is that you might not face the race you want to play against I wouldn't change my approach You should practice your eye movements and tapping | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Frankie Teardrop
United States74 Posts
Can anybody point me in the right direction, or write out a quick BO for me to practice? Thanks guys! | ||
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Tarheels
United States55 Posts
On June 17 2013 15:37 Bahajinbo wrote: I think nearly every Protoss right now has problems with muta / corruptor. It's insanely mobile... I'd say you answer muta/corruptor with phoenix + blink stalkers and eventually storm. But it's just stupidly difficult to engage muta/corruptor properly. I hope someone has a good and simple (!) solution for this playstyle someday. Since muta regeneration has kicked in I nearly never win against zergs with mutas. -_- What about archons? wouldn't the splash dmg be very useful since these units seem to clump up? | ||
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