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On June 18 2013 10:58 Frankie Teardrop wrote:
Zerg player here who just started off-racing as P because he thinks zealots and twilight-tech units are cool as shit. I would like to start my foray into the world of Protoss by learning a simple, safe 2-base chargelot/archon build. I have been searching TL, google, b.net, etc. for an up-to-date build, but I can't find anything that has been written since HotS came out. I've only been playing as Protoss for a few days, and have been trying to optimize a build order on my own against the AI and in unranked games, but my gateway/forge/expand timings are totally wacky, and I don't know whether I need a robo before TC for observers, or if I can skip it until after I have 6+ warpgates, charge, and some templar/archonsout on the field already.
Can anybody point me in the right direction, or write out a quick BO for me to practice? Thanks guys!
I'm assuming you meant pvz by you saying you played zerg. I personally wouldn't recommend chargelot archon/storm against zerg as your standard. the reason is that your standar roach/ling play is strong again this style(roaches ofc) and it's too much of a coin flip imo. against terran at your level this would probably be a great build an against protoss it'd be fine if you knew they were going heavy voids
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Northern Ireland25553 Posts
On June 18 2013 11:58 Tarheels wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 15:37 Bahajinbo wrote:On June 17 2013 13:38 fapy wrote:
How do you deal with mass Muta/corrupter? Generally i open sg and take a third ~9 minutes, when i see the spire i put down x3 sg and pump phoenix. The way I see it is the zerg will reach crit mass of muta/cor before your third econ fully kicks in, overwhelming you on 3 SG and won't let you get the 5 sg you need to beat vs 5 base muta.
As soon as i recognise it do i have to spam cannons? go to 4sg off 2 and 1/2 base and spend all my resources on phoenix, cutting everything else? I think nearly every Protoss right now has problems with muta / corruptor. It's insanely mobile... I'd say you answer muta/corruptor with phoenix + blink stalkers and eventually storm. But it's just stupidly difficult to engage muta/corruptor properly. I hope someone has a good and simple (!) solution for this playstyle someday. Since muta regeneration has kicked in I nearly never win against zergs with mutas. -_- What about archons? wouldn't the splash dmg be very useful since these units seem to clump up?
Against a competent magic-boxer I see archons getting sniped all the time, at least in the stage where they're harassing your bases rather than straight-up engaging you.
I don't think there IS a simple way to beat Mutas now. Most maps are huge, Protoss never had particularly good ground-air DPS even back in WoL and Mutas are simply better.
RSVP advocated, and I'll double check later but going reactive double SG phoenix vs Mutas and that will allow you to stabilise from there. His reasoning, and one that I agree with personally is that Blink Stalker/Templar no longer cuts it vs a good Muta user. They'll not sit in storms or suicide onto upgraded stalkers, and it's a gamble to think that they will.
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Italy12246 Posts
Yeah you 100% need to phoenix vs muta; the annoying thing is when they add corruptors. Rsvp recommends going into zealot/archon because his ground army will be crap (and your archons with phoenixes are decent AA).
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On June 18 2013 12:07 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 11:58 Tarheels wrote:On June 17 2013 15:37 Bahajinbo wrote:On June 17 2013 13:38 fapy wrote:
How do you deal with mass Muta/corrupter? Generally i open sg and take a third ~9 minutes, when i see the spire i put down x3 sg and pump phoenix. The way I see it is the zerg will reach crit mass of muta/cor before your third econ fully kicks in, overwhelming you on 3 SG and won't let you get the 5 sg you need to beat vs 5 base muta.
As soon as i recognise it do i have to spam cannons? go to 4sg off 2 and 1/2 base and spend all my resources on phoenix, cutting everything else? I think nearly every Protoss right now has problems with muta / corruptor. It's insanely mobile... I'd say you answer muta/corruptor with phoenix + blink stalkers and eventually storm. But it's just stupidly difficult to engage muta/corruptor properly. I hope someone has a good and simple (!) solution for this playstyle someday. Since muta regeneration has kicked in I nearly never win against zergs with mutas. -_- What about archons? wouldn't the splash dmg be very useful since these units seem to clump up? Against a competent magic-boxer I see archons getting sniped all the time, at least in the stage where they're harassing your bases rather than straight-up engaging you. I don't think there IS a simple way to beat Mutas now. Most maps are huge, Protoss never had particularly good ground-air DPS even back in WoL and Mutas are simply better. RSVP advocated, and I'll double check later but going reactive double SG phoenix vs Mutas and that will allow you to stabilise from there. His reasoning, and one that I agree with personally is that Blink Stalker/Templar no longer cuts it vs a good Muta user. They'll not sit in storms or suicide onto upgraded stalkers, and it's a gamble to think that they will.
Double sg assumes they're going to stay on 3 base and go only muta. Not even 3 sg can get enough pheonix out to deal with 5 base muta/corrupter.
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On June 18 2013 21:15 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 12:01 aldochillbro wrote:On June 18 2013 10:58 Frankie Teardrop wrote:
Zerg player here who just started off-racing as P because he thinks zealots and twilight-tech units are cool as shit. I would like to start my foray into the world of Protoss by learning a simple, safe 2-base chargelot/archon build. I have been searching TL, google, b.net, etc. for an up-to-date build, but I can't find anything that has been written since HotS came out. I've only been playing as Protoss for a few days, and have been trying to optimize a build order on my own against the AI and in unranked games, but my gateway/forge/expand timings are totally wacky, and I don't know whether I need a robo before TC for observers, or if I can skip it until after I have 6+ warpgates, charge, and some templar/archonsout on the field already.
Can anybody point me in the right direction, or write out a quick BO for me to practice? Thanks guys! I'm assuming you meant pvz by you saying you played zerg. I personally wouldn't recommend chargelot archon/storm against zerg as your standard. the reason is that your standar roach/ling play is strong again this style(roaches ofc) and it's too much of a coin flip imo. against terran at your level this would probably be a great build an against protoss it'd be fine if you knew they were going heavy voids Chargelot/Archon/Immortal/Templar can work really well against Roach, Roach/Ling or Roach/Hydra compositions. It's pretty great against Ling/Ultra as well. The only thing you have problems with are Swarm Hosts, but you can add Colossi reactively if you suspect the opponent is going to get SH out onto the field. Pure Chargelot/Archon/Templar isn't so great, but the addition of Immortals makes it pretty awesome  Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 10:58 Frankie Teardrop wrote:
Zerg player here who just started off-racing as P because he thinks zealots and twilight-tech units are cool as shit. I would like to start my foray into the world of Protoss by learning a simple, safe 2-base chargelot/archon build. I have been searching TL, google, b.net, etc. for an up-to-date build, but I can't find anything that has been written since HotS came out. I've only been playing as Protoss for a few days, and have been trying to optimize a build order on my own against the AI and in unranked games, but my gateway/forge/expand timings are totally wacky, and I don't know whether I need a robo before TC for observers, or if I can skip it until after I have 6+ warpgates, charge, and some templar/archonsout on the field already.
Can anybody point me in the right direction, or write out a quick BO for me to practice? Thanks guys! If you want to look at using Gateway/Immortal compositions vs. Zerg, you should look at ToD and Stardust's games from Dreamhack. Both players were using double Forge to upgrade their Gateway units, with ToD using a Gateway Expand -> Chargelot/Archon/Immortal/Templar composition and Stardust using a FFE -> Chargelot/Sentry/Immortal composition.
Thank you for your replies! I'm actually not looking to learn protoss builds in order to improve my PvZ. I'm looking to start playing protoss casually and would like to learn how to get up to 2-base chargelot/archon vs any race.
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How do I beat roach hydra viper late game? I get around 5 collosus, a bunch of stalkers and a few archons. My collosus get pulled in and he used blinding cloud on my stalkers. Can anyone let me know what I did wrong in this game? I am mid-masters. Thanks.
http://drop.sc/344664
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On June 19 2013 04:35 AegonC wrote:How do I beat roach hydra viper late game? I get around 5 collosus, a bunch of stalkers and a few archons. My collosus get pulled in and he used blinding cloud on my stalkers. Can anyone let me know what I did wrong in this game? I am mid-masters. Thanks. http://drop.sc/344664 You absolutely have to have HTs for feedback in order to engage that composition and not lose. I watched your replay and had you had HTs in your army for basically any of the first few engagements, you would have easily won. He was very hydra-heavy the whole game so had he lost his vipers you would have absolutely melted his army with your two robos of colossi.
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On June 19 2013 05:03 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 04:35 AegonC wrote:How do I beat roach hydra viper late game? I get around 5 collosus, a bunch of stalkers and a few archons. My collosus get pulled in and he used blinding cloud on my stalkers. Can anyone let me know what I did wrong in this game? I am mid-masters. Thanks. http://drop.sc/344664 You absolutely have to have HTs for feedback in order to engage that composition and not lose. I watched your replay and had you had HTs in your army for basically any of the first few engagements, you would have easily won. He was very hydra-heavy the whole game so had he lost his vipers you would have absolutely melted his army with your two robos of colossi.
That makes sense, from now on I'll make a templar archives before dark shrine vs that composition. Thanks a lot man.
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On June 18 2013 18:14 Teoita wrote:
Yeah you 100% need to phoenix vs muta; the annoying thing is when they add corruptors. Rsvp recommends going into zealot/archon because his ground army will be crap (and your archons with phoenixes are decent AA).
When going into zlot archon how do you ever kill the zerg? The base trade is so much better for the zerg. Even 10+ cannons wont stop mass mutam and if you don't attack zlot, archon becomes bad very fast.
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On June 19 2013 07:39 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 18:14 Teoita wrote:
Yeah you 100% need to phoenix vs muta; the annoying thing is when they add corruptors. Rsvp recommends going into zealot/archon because his ground army will be crap (and your archons with phoenixes are decent AA). When going into zlot archon how do you ever kill the zerg? The base trade is so much better for the zerg. Even 10+ cannons wont stop mass mutam and if you don't attack zlot, archon becomes bad very fast.
You don't necessarily have to base trade with that composition. In fact you shouldn't because you will most likely lose the base race. You want to use the chargelots to keep tabs on his expos and snipe a few when possible, harrassment is key. Once you can comfortably establish 4 bases with zealot/archon/phoenix/ht, you can combat his muta/corruptor/ling composition very efficiently. Try to be conservative with your techy units and try not to just bum rush and go for a base race. Zealots are expendable so use them to harass while he harasses you with muta ling. Anyway thats my 2 cents, hope it helps!
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Sorry if i ask this.. or maybe asked before..
How do you defend in base proxy 2 Gate followed by Canon rush? I recalled someone posted this strategy before and had good successful win rates.
The rusher normally place his plyon at the corner of the edge and drop 2 gates to prevent probes from reaching it.
I normally 13 Plyon and followed by 13 Forge to defend. I find it difficult to stop as i always plyon front near to my nexus with forge beside it instead of behind nexus and the canon between probe line is out of reach from preventing zealot attack my second canon if i choose to place one more in the front of nexus.
Should i pull probes to attack on gates? I normally have no issues defending zealot from attacking me but thats when he dropped canon right in front of my nexus where my canon are out of the reach is where i normally GG..
Sorry i got no replay.. sorry no ban me please. I faced that person twice and he rushed me twice and both i lost...
T_T
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Italy12246 Posts
On June 19 2013 09:03 foRGe02 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 07:39 jcroisdale wrote:On June 18 2013 18:14 Teoita wrote:
Yeah you 100% need to phoenix vs muta; the annoying thing is when they add corruptors. Rsvp recommends going into zealot/archon because his ground army will be crap (and your archons with phoenixes are decent AA). When going into zlot archon how do you ever kill the zerg? The base trade is so much better for the zerg. Even 10+ cannons wont stop mass mutam and if you don't attack zlot, archon becomes bad very fast. You don't necessarily have to base trade with that composition. In fact you shouldn't because you will most likely lose the base race. You want to use the chargelots to keep tabs on his expos and snipe a few when possible, harrassment is key. Once you can comfortably establish 4 bases with zealot/archon/phoenix/ht, you can combat his muta/corruptor/ling composition very efficiently. Try to be conservative with your techy units and try not to just bum rush and go for a base race. Zealots are expendable so use them to harass while he harasses you with muta ling. Anyway thats my 2 cents, hope it helps!
When you don't have enough aa to kill mutas and he can pretty much amove you, your only chance is winning a base race...That said as i posted, muta destory that double forge chargelot stuff.
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Has anyone made sense of Stardust's weird PvZ style yet? I'm watching his stream right now and he is absolutely annihilating zergs with it but I can't figure it out. It seems almost arbitrary when he moves out (not a consistent time from what I can tell). It's like he can smell weakness or something. When he attacks is always when Zerg is getting ready to do something but isn't prepared yet. It's really interesting to watch. I'm going to give this style a go. It looks fun. Maybe I'll make more sense of it by using it a bit. On the surface it just looks like a 3 base turbocharged soulpush (edit: he does it off 2 bases too sometimes? What? 8gate immortal sentry a couple games in a row). double edit: 18 sentries in one game. It appeared he was actually relying on sentry DPS to snipe banelings. It was mind boggling to watch. He makes this look broken.
Also, I am happy that I can go chargelot/HT/immortal/archon again PvZ. When HOTS first came out I played that style a ton but then people started using mutas or swarmhosts every game so I couldn't but it seems things have switched back to roach/hydra nonsense so I can have fun again.
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What is the unit composition to go for vs mass voidray in PvP? I have been going for archons/storm but not having much luck. Is there a composition thats been figured out? Pros don't teally seem to be going for mass voids anymore so I must have missed a metagame shift or something.
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How the fuck do I beat mech. Since everyone seems to believe it's barely viable in TvP I feel like a retard losing to it over and over again. I've just had a game where I killed 15 scvs with oracles early on and was 2 bases ahead at some point to tank hellbat viking ghost (which becomes raven if I go air). Should I uninstall?
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On June 20 2013 11:50 habermas wrote:
How the fuck do I beat mech. Since everyone seems to believe it's barely viable in TvP I feel like a retard losing to it over and over again. I've just had a game where I killed 15 scvs with oracles early on and was 2 bases ahead at some point to tank hellbat viking ghost (which becomes raven if I go air). Should I uninstall?
As soon as I know I'm going against mech, I go into 2 robo immortal and eventually start pumping out void rays out of 1 stargate (later in the game adding on more stargates). I personally think making colossi is a mistake (at least early game): 1, immortals are way better against tanks and thors. 2, making colossi encourages them to make vikings, which makes it harder to transition to air or get away with just making void rays from 1 stargate, initially.
I know some like to make stalkers, but I've yet to understand why... I just go heavy zealots and make a lot of archons to make up for my lack of colossi. I basically look to take the map/shut down timings with that composition, and keep adding on stargates to make an eventual switch to "air toss," plus immortals. In short, force them to be ground heavy in the early game and switch to air late game when your eco is way better and they don't have the free supply/production ability/eco to counter it.
I'm not saying it's optimal, but it's a style that pretty much forces the Terran to effectively use ghosts with mech. Just not enough people are using ghosts effectively enough with mech to really justify being scared of having an army that in theory is hard countered by ghosts.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 20 2013 09:49 Atlas247 wrote:
What is the unit composition to go for vs mass voidray in PvP? I have been going for archons/storm but not having much luck. Is there a composition thats been figured out? Pros don't teally seem to be going for mass voids anymore so I must have missed a metagame shift or something.
Archon/storm should annihilate void rays quite well. If anything, it gives you super ground superiority and allows you to just bypass whatever void rays are left and start killing his base. The main reason VRs have kind of disappeared and colossus have appeared again is that people have realized that colossus/immortal pushes just kill the VR player's base. Essentially, there's a very specific time window where your opponent is making colossus + chargelots and you don't have the void ray numbers to kill everything fast enough.
On June 20 2013 11:50 habermas wrote:
How the fuck do I beat mech. Since everyone seems to believe it's barely viable in TvP I feel like a retard losing to it over and over again. I've just had a game where I killed 15 scvs with oracles early on and was 2 bases ahead at some point to tank hellbat viking ghost (which becomes raven if I go air). Should I uninstall?
I'm still trying to figure this out, but it really depends on the style. If you're talking about just generally engaging a mech army of tank/hellbat/viking/ghost, you need to have an army of mostly immortal/archon/zealot with a small pack of blink stalkers (~12). You want to place your units really far forward and chip away at the army as they try to move out. If anything, this will stall the attack for a long time and continually make it weaker, and it's possible to also open up counterattack options.
So, biggest thing is not allowing the mech army to fight on its own terms.
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Can I do partings+2/+2 chargelot /Archon 11 min push vs a zerg - assuming he does a ling roach or a roach hydra composition? This was built vs terran bio army and has worked well for me (gold league)
And yea like habermas asked , if am already halfway in the parting build and the terran goes mech how d I transition out ?
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EPT
