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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
On June 15 2013 21:30 Teoita wrote:Here we go: 1) http://drop.sc/343442 i win outright while we are taking our thirds simply by having better multitasking and execution. 2) http://drop.sc/343441 vs WM drop. The only game in over 20 i've taken off dwf, lol. 3) http://drop.sc/339618 i end up ahead so i can just finish him off before switching into colo with zealot warpins and a nice timing 4) http://drop.sc/343440 vs a wierdass hellbat timing, the warp prism wins me the game again 5) http://drop.sc/343439 it's not the same build (i was doing zest's immortal/archon timing), but it shows how this general style can hit a sick timing vs mech if he's trying to take a third 6) http://drop.sc/343438 standard game vs bio, i play greedy in response to his 3cc and lose because my macro goes to shit. If i had made 5-6 more gates and engaged better i could have zealoted his ass and killed him easily. 7) http://drop.sc/340374 standard game vs pure bio; monk's micro was off because he was lagging but this is what a more passive game looks like. Note that the build isn't particularly refined as in some of those i was still figuring a few things out and in others i'm forced to react to things like mech or 3cc, but that's how it's supposed to go in general. Overall, i think this playstyle is very, very solid, and should be even stronger come the next patch for obvious reasons.
Thanks T-Dog :D
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Wow, just a huge shoutout of gratitude to Teoita for providing all this information! It would be awesome if someone could make a compilation of those 3-4 posts and put it on the OP as I'm sure many people would appreciate it.
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Italy12246 Posts
When i'm done with my exams i want to publish a full on, TL strat-pimped up, guide on PvT 2base templar. I just don't have the time for it atm, but i promise it'll come out sometime this summer 
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Holy CRAP. That's SO much info dropped on us. You are a god Teoita. I've bookmarked this, and when I reach high masters I'm coming back and learning that style.
Alternatively, I'll just wait for the pimped-up guide and maybe try it then.
Seriously, it is so great for us to have such an awesome Protoss available. You're an awesome player, and you are just ALWAYS THERE. I know if I ask a question, you will 90% of the time answer it, and that 10% is usually when I post at a bad time.
Actually, I should ask you this...what kind of level of play would you recommend for someone attempting to learn this style? I was mid-Masters (Around the top 15-20% of Masters, including the inactive ones, according to SC2ranks, I believe my peak was just shy of 1000 points, like 975) last season, and PvT is my best matchup, but I still don't know if I'm comfortable with the idea of executing it myself.
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Italy12246 Posts
Dunno you might as well try it. Grab a practice partner or play unranked if you are afraid for your ladder points. I personally think it's actually easier than colossus builds once you get used to it because defending drops just feels so much simpler.
Also, thanks guys ♥ brotoss high five!
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Austria24417 Posts
Madness. About to go through all of them. 2 base templar is so much more fun to play for me and honestly, at my level most people just die to the warp prism. Storm dropping is one of the most satisfying things in this game.
<3 Teo!
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On June 16 2013 01:43 Salivanth wrote:
Holy CRAP. That's SO much info dropped on us. You are a god Teoita. I've bookmarked this, and when I reach high masters I'm coming back and learning that style.
Alternatively, I'll just wait for the pimped-up guide and maybe try it then.
Seriously, it is so great for us to have such an awesome Protoss available. You're an awesome player, and you are just ALWAYS THERE. I know if I ask a question, you will 90% of the time answer it, and that 10% is usually when I post at a bad time.
Actually, I should ask you this...what kind of level of play would you recommend for someone attempting to learn this style? I was mid-Masters (Around the top 15-20% of Masters, including the inactive ones, according to SC2ranks, I believe my peak was just shy of 1000 points, like 975) last season, and PvT is my best matchup, but I still don't know if I'm comfortable with the idea of executing it myself.
If you're curious about what level skill you need, I play a HT-based mid-game at diamond level, and PvT is my best matchup.
I've never lost a game because I feel the style is too difficult, I almost always lose because I'm a real pussy when it comes to taking my third because I'm scared of doom drops if I ever move out to scare the T army. =C
But yeah, you should really try it. I find it much more fun than Collossus based armies, anyways.
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Oh damn, I just don't win PvZ macro anymore. Too many techswitches and stupid swarm host & muta corruptor usage. Seriously, 2 seasons ago, I had nearly 80% winrate in PvZ and now it is around 40%. >_>
Now I just say fuck it and want to all-in every zerg.
My first question: What all-ins are strong currently and on which maps especially?
My current non-vetoed maps and my all-ins I plan:
- Akilon: Soultrain / 2 Immortal 2 Colossus
- Bel'Shir: Soultrain / 2 Immortal 2 Colossus
- Derelict Watcher: +2 Blink
- Neo Planet: Soultrain / +2 Blink / man train
- Newkirk: +2 Blink or some kind of stargate all-in
- Star station: +2 Blink / man train
My second & third questions:
- Which all-ins can I do after a gate expand? I usually do the usual 3 gate / 4 gate pressure stuff and go skytoss macro mode thereafter. But damn, it's not all-in.
I know 5 gates from JangBi or Squirtle but I don't find VODs and I don't know how many gases you have for those. I don't know any timings either. How about a 7 gate off a gate expand? I read something about it in the thread, but I don't have a clue about 7 gate timings.
- Is +2 blink even viable anymore? I know, I list it up there at the first question, but I lose a lot with the build, especially against ling/hydra. With +2 kicking in, I don't even have many stalkers.
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I've played a few games recently with +1 zealot pressure (into dt) into +2 chargelot archon all in. Is this supposed to be a good follow up? Could it even be considered a good all in on its own, even if you don't go for +1 4 gate earlier? I don't think a +2 blink stalker follow up would be nearly as succesful, regardless of whether I also go dts.
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thanks for this thread it really improved my game!
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On June 16 2013 02:35 Bahajinbo wrote:
Oh damn, I just don't win PvZ macro anymore. Too many techswitches and stupid swarm host & muta corruptor usage. Seriously, 2 seasons ago, I had nearly 80% winrate in PvZ and now it is around 40%. >_>
Now I just say fuck it and want to all-in every zerg.
My first question: What all-ins are strong currently and on which maps especially?
My current non-vetoed maps and my all-ins I plan:
- Akilon: Soultrain / 2 Immortal 2 Colossus
- Bel'Shir: Soultrain / 2 Immortal 2 Colossus
- Derelict Watcher: +2 Blink
- Neo Planet: Soultrain / +2 Blink / man train
- Newkirk: +2 Blink or some kind of stargate all-in
- Star station: +2 Blink / man train
My second & third questions:
- Which all-ins can I do after a gate expand? I usually do the usual 3 gate / 4 gate pressure stuff and go skytoss macro mode thereafter. But damn, it's not all-in.
I know 5 gates from JangBi or Squirtle but I don't find VODs and I don't know how many gases you have for those. I don't know any timings either. How about a 7 gate off a gate expand? I read something about it in the thread, but I don't have a clue about 7 gate timings.
- Is +2 blink even viable anymore? I know, I list it up there at the first question, but I lose a lot with the build, especially against ling/hydra. With +2 kicking in, I don't even have many stalkers.
I feel the exact same way. Every toss I talk to is having hard time going macro vs Zerg. Would love to see someone who has a decent way to deal with muta/corruptor
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Teoita, those replays and explanations for PvT are so helpful; thank you
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Northern Ireland25082 Posts
Damn, so much information to plough through  Thanks as ever Teoita!
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Is there much of a difference between the 7-gate +1 and the 8-gate +1 in PvZ? They seem nearly identical timings, with the 8-gate having 2-4 more probes and hitting very slightly later than the 7-gate. Is one superior to the other? Does it even matter which one I do?
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Northern Ireland25082 Posts
Having a somewhat irrational love of double-ups, gateway heavy styles, has anyone shown any good, solid replicable dual-forge PvZ? What would such a build even look like?
Having been without the ability to play or even post here for quite a while, I've been trying to figure out a vague schematic in my brain. I had thought of doing it off a gateway expand, with a Zealot pressure a la Naniwa and using that as a platform to go for a chargelot/immortal/templar composition like I've seen sOs have success with.
Problem I ran into is that being safe kind of ruins any of the potency. Sticking in a Stargate and investing in Phoenixes slows down the ability to get the heavy ups with storm that I find crush most Zerg midgame comps when I can get them going. However, as I said to get that comp with an upgrade lead and storm I really found I had to cut a lot of corners in terms of Phoenix production and whatnot, and Mutas are rearing their ugly head and causing me great pain.
I've seen SaSe try it in numerous streamed PvZs, but he lost most of the game I saw him try. Perhaps I caught him on a bad day though as some of his builds are killer.
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United States4883 Posts
I posted this earlier and didn't get an answer: How are protosses dealing with all of the new threats coming their way in PvT? It seems like terran is always opening with a fast gas and can easily transition into a plethora of different options including mine drops, hellbat drops, marine/mine attacks, heavy reaper openings (3+), hellions, or just a standard reaper expand, and it's hard for me to get the info I need early enough.
2nd question: What's the proper response to scouting mech in PvT? Initial pushes that include a lot of marines feel very hard to deal with including marine/mine pushes and marine/tank pushes; because of these pushes, it feels very risky to immediately expand to a 3rd in response. I've tried immediately going double robo colossus/immortal or stargate immediately into tempests, but both feel a little late to deal with the push. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the army that deals with marine/mine/tank doesn't do well against tank/hellbat and I can't seem to find time to make either army; is there a good in-between response?
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For those heavy reaper openings, this style only works if Protoss moves his mothership core out on the map to scout Terran. Other than that, if you constantly make something out of your gateway and have your mothership core home, you should be fine. It's okay to lose 1-2 probes.
If they go gas first then they can get a widow mine before you have detection. You want to contest the widow mine with your units and mothership core to make it leap frog its way to your base. This should minimize the potential damage they can do against you. If they have a widow mine at your mineral line, just sac a probe and begin mining after that if your observer is no where close to being finished.
I go for the 21 nexus build into 2g robo. I'm testing if I can really get away with the 2g rather than getting a 3rd gateway and so far it seems to pan out well. I use an early sentry to hallucinate and scout Terran to see what their intentions are. If they have are doing a widow mine drop, I defend then counter attack while macroing behind it. If they are doing hellbat drops, I defend and expand. If they go 3rax then factory, then I play normal and go double forge colossus play. If they are going just for a fast starport, I go for blink into double forge colo.
If you see 2 factories, it generally means they are going mech.
I think you aren't utilizing hallucination in PvT or if you are, then you aren't using it enough. You should be able to scout all of this and respond easily.
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On June 16 2013 13:18 Wombat_NI wrote:
Having a somewhat irrational love of double-ups, gateway heavy styles, has anyone shown any good, solid replicable dual-forge PvZ? What would such a build even look like?
Having been without the ability to play or even post here for quite a while, I've been trying to figure out a vague schematic in my brain. I had thought of doing it off a gateway expand, with a Zealot pressure a la Naniwa and using that as a platform to go for a chargelot/immortal/templar composition like I've seen sOs have success with.
Problem I ran into is that being safe kind of ruins any of the potency. Sticking in a Stargate and investing in Phoenixes slows down the ability to get the heavy ups with storm that I find crush most Zerg midgame comps when I can get them going. However, as I said to get that comp with an upgrade lead and storm I really found I had to cut a lot of corners in terms of Phoenix production and whatnot, and Mutas are rearing their ugly head and causing me great pain.
I've seen SaSe try it in numerous streamed PvZs, but he lost most of the game I saw him try. Perhaps I caught him on a bad day though as some of his builds are killer.
Double forge is like a hard counter to the double evo ling style but if they go Roach/Hydra, it is a bit hard to pull off b/c you generally want splash against that + Show Spoiler +but after watching Huk at dreamhack defend with immo/zealot/blink stalkers/sentries idk if that's still true
I have won A game with 2-0-2 blink stalkers into third...but idk if it's actually viable...the other double forge style is just going for 3-2-1 or 3-3-0 with charge/immo/colo/archon but that's in response to seeing their double evo ling
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Italy12246 Posts
Double forge PvZ: gets raped horribly by basically anything that isn't ultra/ling. Roach hydra is somewhat decent against this if he keeps trading (your army is only scary once you have tons of storm and a good immortal count), and swarm hosts DEMOLISH it, and it wouldn't be great vs mutas either since gateway units are now awful vs them. Regarding that game at Dreamhack, it was Huk vs some random GM dude that literally did THE ONE THING he could to lose the game. If he had stayed in the open area between the nat and third and used a few hydras to pick off the forge/cyber/gateway at the wall forcing huk to come down, there's no way in hell the Protoss wins.
edit: dreamhack spoilers + Show Spoiler +also see tod vs stephano on akiln wastes from dreamhack
New openers PvT: since you are so much greedier in the early game you can get a robo and/or hallucination out much faster than in WoL, so while terran has more options they are easier to scout for the protoss. Some people even use the msc to scout. These days i just core scout to check for a low ground cc and get the rest of my early game info with a zealot/stalker/msc poke.
Mech: it depends on wether he's doing a 2base timing or taking a third. In the first case you expand asap and set up your infrastructure (you want double robo immortal and archons, colossi aren't that good). If he's doing a timing i -think- you can stay on 2bases and just chrono immortals while getting archons and chargelots. I'm not entirely sure as i haven't faced a 2base mech timing yet. See the replay on planet S i posted earlier. Something super important when engaging mech is having a warp prism to drop 2 immmortals and warp a round of zealots on top of his tanks. It changes engagements drastically.
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Hello!
I was reading all the talk about PvT, I'm currently doing a 1 gate - 21 nexus / mothershipcore - robo - 2 gates build, allowing me to have an obs pretty quickly and I'm doing fine so far, this allows me to react and choose my tech path depending on what I scout, ending up with the classical colossus/HT as the late game goes...
The question I have is that I see some P and read here and there that the build "should" be 2 gates then robo, how bad/greedy is it to have a robo that fast ? I didn't have any problem deflecting an early push with photon overcharge and 2 sentries (+ some gateway units).
Should I consider changing my BO ? (I just got promoted to diamond [EU], maybe it will be harder from there)
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EPT
