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On January 03 2014 13:08 bigmanbigman wrote:
Could someone give me an overall solid build? I notice many gm koreans on korean server use basically 1 g expo into oracle into forge, +1, storm, archons, etc. and just destroy terran. I'm not exactly sure on what to do with the build and whether to all-in... go pure archon/zealot, etc.
Any certain players to watch who do this style? I'm really interested since it seems so powerful..
Also, is blink all-in off 2 base vs terran still viable even though many terrans get a sensor tower? It doesnt seem that much harder to win in theory for me though since you choose where to blink in, and terran is always unsure of where you may be.
Thanks guys
SoS and many other protosses do this style. Just watch vods.
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On January 03 2014 08:53 Asuna wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 08:18 KingAlphard wrote:On January 03 2014 08:00 Aiursc wrote:On January 03 2014 07:34 Asuna wrote:On January 03 2014 07:17 Aiursc wrote:On January 03 2014 07:12 Asuna wrote:On January 03 2014 07:08 Aiursc wrote:On January 03 2014 06:15 Asuna wrote:
What do you guys think about the risk vs benefits of 16 nex 16 gate 17 pylon -> same probe makes gas -> chrono zealot + make cyber + forge the moment gate finishes as an opener in PvZ as opposed to the normal gateway expand or forge first? It has the risk in that anything earlier than a 10 pool is completely impossible to hold , and if you choose to make the gate at the nat like I do then even a 10 pool is nearly impossible to hold. However it allows for much harder pressure than a FFE while retaining the econ benefits of a FFE, and is timed out to just barely protect your wall if they go 14 pool lings and try to runby. As you said it's weaker against early pools and doesn't seem to have any advantages over gateway expand or FFE. You can do a lot harder pressure than FFE though for the same econ since you only need 2 wg chronos if you want to do a 6:50 attack. I'm just not quite familiar how exactly it compares to gate expands since I don't ever do those. The build you are talking about was decent in WoL when FFE was very popular and zergs didn't expect so early of a timing. If I remember correctly Naniwa used it as a metagame build because he was sure DRG would 15 pool. However now gateway expand can pretty much do the same thing you are trying to do (earlier pressure) without the risk of losing to an early pool. Also I think your cannon goes down later than ffe so lings might be able to pick off a building at the wall off. Lings can't really pick anything off unless he stops at 16 drones and goes pure lings, but you can hold that at the wall, just will lose a building sometimes. But does gateway expand go into as strong of a 2 base all in? In my experience the best 2 base allins come from a blind 17 nexus > 17 forge. That seems to saturate the fastest. You have a bigger army with ffe compared to 1 gate fe after the 9th minute or so, but zerg army will also be bigger because you left him free to build drones during the early game. Because of this I personally prefer 2 base all ins off of 1 gate fe. If you go nexus first into gate, core etc. you have the economy of a nexus first into forge build but with faster warpgate tech too, so it's like merging the advantages of FFE and 1 gate FE into a single build. Yea, I'm just not quite sure in terms of relative position whether gate FE or the one I do would be better. If the goal is to 2 base all in possibly with some pre-push.
The only advantage you get with gate-core-nexus is a slightly faster warpgate, so if you want to go for a quick 3/4 gate 1 gate FE is better. But besides that, any all in which hits later is better with the nexus-gate-core variant.
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On January 03 2014 12:16 Salv wrote:
I have contributed to this thread a lot in the past, so even though this is a simple and rather newby question, I am hoping for a helpful response. Teoita perhaps?
I was top masters about six months ago, but I haven't played for a long while and now I am playing again. I have been trying to do the gateway expand instead of the forge fast expansion that I am familiar with. The only problem I am having is that I am seeing one gas and two gas variants - but not really sure which is better or for what reasons - but more importantly - what do you do against a Zerg who just makes a lot of speedlings in response? Most Zerg I play against don't do anything, but my opponent a few minutes ago rallied all 6 of his lings, began speed, and just kept rallying them to my base. All I had was my MSC at first and units coming from one gateway at my ramp - so eventually I was overrun.
I have seen a post on another site saying you are supposed to cancel the nexus and just stay on one base for a bit longer? I have heard another saying to cut probes and wall off your natural and then chrono out sentries in the meantime - but I am unsure and not very knowledgeable about this. Any help?
What you describe looks like a 14/14 1 base speedling all in, so it's fine if you just hold on one base without losing probes. Of course the best case scenario would be saving the natural, but if the zerg player keeps rallying lings since the beginning you shouldn't be able to get a wall up.
Whether you get 2 gases or 1 depends on how much gas you need to spend in the early game. If you want an early tech, like a stargate or a twilight council, you go for 2 gases (at first 2 probes each- then add 1 in each geyser later on), whereas if you want to go for a gateway pressure (3/4 gates), you get 1 gas at 14 and a 2nd gas after the nexus.
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On January 03 2014 13:54 Aiursc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 13:08 Chocolate wrote:
Hey guys stupid questions coming up. I was diamond back in 2011 and early 2012 (so, kinda terrible), didn't play for a while, and now I'm laddering again. MMR decay pushed me down into bronze, and I've just been 4-gating every match to get my MMR back into the diamond range (I have yet to check out the MMR calculator tool, but I think I am in the gold or platinum range right now) ASAP for the next season.
When you 4gate, is it recommended to just do it exactly as in WOL? I've been skipping the MScore and going for that 5:50 warp-in with 1 zealot and 6 stalkers at the enemy base and it seems to work very well, mostly because people either aren't scouting or suck at reading what they scout or have shit builds. Once I get into the diamond MMR range I fear that this won't work anymore unless the build is optimally designed.
Also when do you scout? I have been doing 9 scout for PvP (because everybody that is in gold/plat sees that I'm in bronze and tries to cannon rush me and/or proxy gate) and 9 scout for zerg on maps with only two spawns, but when you are on four spawn maps, what do you do? I've been switching between 9 scout and 13 scout because I'm not really sure. This is partially answered in the OP but if there is a more detailed response that would be great. You should be able to warp in at 5:38 if you execute correctly. That build will still work fine vs most lower leaguers. Also you should never have to scout before gate. A lot of the times I don't even scout because I have so much chrono I can defend pretty much anything with that build. I would recommend that you scout after gate that way your timing is not too messed up, in pvp just scout your surroundings after gate and then scout them.
I usually don't have perfect chrono's (usually missing one or two during the wg research phase) so perhaps that is the source of my delay. Thanks for providing the ideal time; I'll work towards it.
I follow you on the scouting. I find it hard to react to proxy gates even with a 9 scout (actually today I lost against a proxy rush that I spotted at 1:10 >.<), though, so I might just keep 9 scouting for a while in PvP.
BTW one more question: when you are going to be on one base for a while, is it still typical to do a wall with an opening for a zealot in PvZ and PvP? I don't see many people making a wall in PvP, I guess for the small mineral gain of making buildings near the mineral line, but I thought this was recommended in the case of DTs.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 03 2014 14:30 Chocolate wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 13:54 Aiursc wrote:On January 03 2014 13:08 Chocolate wrote:
Hey guys stupid questions coming up. I was diamond back in 2011 and early 2012 (so, kinda terrible), didn't play for a while, and now I'm laddering again. MMR decay pushed me down into bronze, and I've just been 4-gating every match to get my MMR back into the diamond range (I have yet to check out the MMR calculator tool, but I think I am in the gold or platinum range right now) ASAP for the next season.
When you 4gate, is it recommended to just do it exactly as in WOL? I've been skipping the MScore and going for that 5:50 warp-in with 1 zealot and 6 stalkers at the enemy base and it seems to work very well, mostly because people either aren't scouting or suck at reading what they scout or have shit builds. Once I get into the diamond MMR range I fear that this won't work anymore unless the build is optimally designed.
Also when do you scout? I have been doing 9 scout for PvP (because everybody that is in gold/plat sees that I'm in bronze and tries to cannon rush me and/or proxy gate) and 9 scout for zerg on maps with only two spawns, but when you are on four spawn maps, what do you do? I've been switching between 9 scout and 13 scout because I'm not really sure. This is partially answered in the OP but if there is a more detailed response that would be great. You should be able to warp in at 5:38 if you execute correctly. That build will still work fine vs most lower leaguers. Also you should never have to scout before gate. A lot of the times I don't even scout because I have so much chrono I can defend pretty much anything with that build. I would recommend that you scout after gate that way your timing is not too messed up, in pvp just scout your surroundings after gate and then scout them. I usually don't have perfect chrono's (usually missing one or two during the wg research phase) so perhaps that is the source of my delay. Thanks for providing the ideal time; I'll work towards it. I follow you on the scouting. I find it hard to react to proxy gates even with a 9 scout (actually today I lost against a proxy rush that I spotted at 1:10 >.<), though, so I might just keep 9 scouting for a while in PvP. BTW one more question: when you are going to be on one base for a while, is it still typical to do a wall with an opening for a zealot in PvZ and PvP? I don't see many people making a wall in PvP, I guess for the small mineral gain of making buildings near the mineral line, but I thought this was recommended in the case of DTs.
Building walls are a huge liability vs. stalker aggression and once you move on to two bases: they make it much harder to move from your natural to your main, and when still on one base, with a msc for vision, it's very easy to pick those buildings off with stalkers. That's the biggest reason most people don't do building walls. If I suspect DTs, I just block the ramp with my units on hold position with a sentry in back, then FF the DT's out when I realize they're coming up the ramp.
Building wall in PvZ isn't a terrible idea but not necessary. It makes you much stronger against 10-12 pools, but gate at your main is stronger vs. 6-7 pools.
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United States4883 Posts
On January 03 2014 12:16 Salv wrote:
I have contributed to this thread a lot in the past, so even though this is a simple and rather newby question, I am hoping for a helpful response. Teoita perhaps?
I was top masters about six months ago, but I haven't played for a long while and now I am playing again. I have been trying to do the gateway expand instead of the forge fast expansion that I am familiar with. The only problem I am having is that I am seeing one gas and two gas variants - but not really sure which is better or for what reasons - but more importantly - what do you do against a Zerg who just makes a lot of speedlings in response? Most Zerg I play against don't do anything, but my opponent a few minutes ago rallied all 6 of his lings, began speed, and just kept rallying them to my base. All I had was my MSC at first and units coming from one gateway at my ramp - so eventually I was overrun.
I have seen a post on another site saying you are supposed to cancel the nexus and just stay on one base for a bit longer? I have heard another saying to cut probes and wall off your natural and then chrono out sentries in the meantime - but I am unsure and not very knowledgeable about this. Any help?
Teo probably doesn't know a lot about gate expands, but I do them exclusively in HotS. The key is to have a sentry and a wall up by 5:30 (which is the time 14/14 usually hits). Generally you can deflect the first few lings with MSC/zealot or stalker and get your wall up. Since you only have one sentry, you have to continue to wall off using buildings.
Obviously, it's harder to get this done on maps with wide natural chokes such as Bel'Shir or Derelict. In those cases, you just have to retreat to the high ground, give up the nexus, and 3-gate sentry expand, WoL style.
EDIT: Also, as far as single gas vs. double gas goes: With single gas expands, you have the option of doing gateway aggression (3-4 gate aggression) while teching a little more slowly versus 2-gas expands, which are a little more mid to late game focused. 2-gas expands are good for going something like stargate/forge and taking a very economical 3rd.
On January 03 2014 13:08 Chocolate wrote:
Hey guys stupid questions coming up. I was diamond back in 2011 and early 2012 (so, kinda terrible), didn't play for a while, and now I'm laddering again. MMR decay pushed me down into bronze, and I've just been 4-gating every match to get my MMR back into the diamond range (I have yet to check out the MMR calculator tool, but I think I am in the gold or platinum range right now) ASAP for the next season.
When you 4gate, is it recommended to just do it exactly as in WOL? I've been skipping the MScore and going for that 5:50 warp-in with 1 zealot and 6 stalkers at the enemy base and it seems to work very well, mostly because people either aren't scouting or suck at reading what they scout or have shit builds. Once I get into the diamond MMR range I fear that this won't work anymore unless the build is optimally designed.
Also when do you scout? I have been doing 9 scout for PvP (because everybody that is in gold/plat sees that I'm in bronze and tries to cannon rush me and/or proxy gate) and 9 scout for zerg on maps with only two spawns, but when you are on four spawn maps, what do you do? I've been switching between 9 scout and 13 scout because I'm not really sure. This is partially answered in the OP but if there is a more detailed response that would be great.
Either do 10-gate into 3-gate aggression (hits at like 5:12 or something stupid like that) or do a later 4-gate with the MSC. 4-gate is 100% better with MSC. As far as scouting goes, just scout on 13 every game (and walloff your main ramp in PvZ). There are a lot of subtleties when scouting: just make sure you're thinking about what you need to scout for (i.e. gas timings, early pool, possible proxies, etc.).
Actually, I'll go ahead and explain advanced scouting because why not:
In PvT, a gateway scout (on 13) will allow you to get into the terran's main check the gas timing unless they do an early walloff. On 4-player maps, you are guaranteed this scout, so it's better to just scout later (~1-base saturation, normally after nexus in a 1-gate FE).
In PvZ, you generally want to scout on 9 if you're doing FFE. This allows you to spot an early pool (6-10 pool) and respond to it as well as allow you to check the gas timings and block the natural hatchery. If you're doing a gateway expand, you should be able to deal with a 6pool without scouting, so generally you don't scout until after the nexus in a 1-gate FE (about the same timing as the terran scout). These timings don't usually change on 4-player maps, but usually you'll get down an earlier forge or get a zealot to be extra safe.
In PvP, you actually don't need to scout at all if you're making good reads. Watch this video on scouting PvP. If you're uncertain or don't feel good enough to make those reads, you can send a probe scout out around the time you build your core (on 18). It's also very advisable to scout your base (and sometimes your natural) for proxies after your gateway (on 13).
Hope this helps!
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On January 03 2014 07:10 Aiursc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 18:52 Gamlet wrote:
I think prototos can play gaz befor gate at all matchups.For example gaz-gate-nexus-pylon-cyber-forge(pvz)/Without forge in pvt.In pvp some more variations of gaz befor gate/ Gas before gate gets destroyed by any early pool and doesn't really bring any advantages.
We have fast exp(FFe advantage) with fast tech(gate fe advantage) its our advantage..For example we can make wall so fast in Alterazim.I try take fast hird gaz.Expand only 2 probes in gaz.And with-1 gate-forge-stargate take third nexus.
Now i try to playing stagate into stoms swich.Makeing 1 oracle(for drone or queen harass)or ray (for roach defense)or phoenix(for map contol)/
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How do you play PvZ on Daedalus Point? It takes a ton of buildings to either wall the ramp or to the nexus, and a speedling all-in is quite strong.
I tried a gateway expand into 2 gates and a stargate to help wall to the nexus, and then a forge on the other side (between the gas and the nexus), but there's still a gap between the gas and the cliff, and that is already a ton of surface area.
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Italy12248 Posts
I have absolutely no idea if it's even possible to wall off on time on that map. I recommend you just veto it.
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Just veto that horrible map.
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These maps have been getting worse and worse T_T
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Italy12248 Posts
Yeah i hate most blizz maps these days
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Totally noob question, but wouldn't some of the expansion patterns from the old days PvZ, from maps like Xelnaga Caverns work on Daedalus Point? Or is there just no way for that type of play in the current meta?
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Italy12248 Posts
I think Daedalus Point is even worse because you cant wall from your ramp to your nexus (like on xnc, lost temple etc), nor the main ramp reasonably. It just looks broken as fuck to me. I might be wrong, we will see. I hope it's not included in the wcs map pool though, derelict watcher pvz made me rage enough as is.
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Russian Federation25 Posts
I also came here to ask what is safe macro build on Daedalus Point PvZ. Lost to mass zergling all-in
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
Yeah Daedalus Point is a 100% veto map. Not only do speedling all ins kill you but zerg basically gets a free 3hatch before pool because forge expanding isn't an option. Horrible map.
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came here to say that daedalus point is terrible. Glad to see thats already being said.
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On January 03 2014 20:31 Entropy137 wrote:
came here to say that daedalus point is terrible. Glad to see thats already being said.
I just saw puCK nearly cry when he saw that ramp T_T, I honestly don't like vetoing maps, especially not more than 1 at a time, and with Aterzim already in the pool.....arrrgh these damn blizzards maps are so bad lol.
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On January 03 2014 19:05 Teoita wrote:
I think Daedalus Point is even worse because you cant wall from your ramp to your nexus (like on xnc, lost temple etc), nor the main ramp reasonably. It just looks broken as fuck to me. I might be wrong, we will see. I hope it's not included in the wcs map pool though, derelict watcher pvz made me rage enough as is.
It is in the WCS mappool. This just shows again that Blizzard has no clue how to design maps for their own game. I'm looking seeing it veto'd every single game.
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On January 03 2014 23:18 00higgo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2014 20:31 Entropy137 wrote:
came here to say that daedalus point is terrible. Glad to see thats already being said. I just saw puCK nearly cry when he saw that ramp T_T, I honestly don't like vetoing maps, especially not more than 1 at a time, and with Aterzim already in the pool.....arrrgh these damn blizzards maps are so bad lol.
What's wrong with Alterzim? In my opinion it's a pretty good protoss map.
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EPT
