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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On January 03 2014 23:41 Ravomat wrote: It is in the WCS mappool. This just shows again that Blizzard has no clue how to design maps for their own game. I'm looking seeing it veto'd every single game. May god have mercy on toss' (and terrans') players' souls... | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On January 03 2014 23:49 Aiursc wrote: What's wrong with Alterzim? In my opinion it's a pretty good protoss map. I agree. It's a very good map to turtle up and build up a strong composition, especially against zerg. In PvT and PvP you can often take a ninja 3rd base and it will almost never be scouted because there are just too many bases to check (I mass recall probes on it lol). | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On January 03 2014 15:58 SC2John wrote: Teo probably doesn't know a lot about gate expands, but I do them exclusively in HotS. The key is to have a sentry and a wall up by 5:30 (which is the time 14/14 usually hits). Generally you can deflect the first few lings with MSC/zealot or stalker and get your wall up. Since you only have one sentry, you have to continue to wall off using buildings. Obviously, it's harder to get this done on maps with wide natural chokes such as Bel'Shir or Derelict. In those cases, you just have to retreat to the high ground, give up the nexus, and 3-gate sentry expand, WoL style. EDIT: Also, as far as single gas vs. double gas goes: With single gas expands, you have the option of doing gateway aggression (3-4 gate aggression) while teching a little more slowly versus 2-gas expands, which are a little more mid to late game focused. 2-gas expands are good for going something like stargate/forge and taking a very economical 3rd. Thanks so much, perfect answer. | ||
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bigmanbigman
17 Posts
Thanks in advance guys p.s.: im trying sos' double forge oracle into zealot/archon aggression maybe that will work but i'm trying to figure out different things so i know what works the best. other than the blink build above, can someone show me a vod or something of a solid pvt style that is pretty easy to use? i have like 40% win rate in pvt right now (all wins coming from expand into 3 gate blink). | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=426047 | ||
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bigmanbigman
17 Posts
On January 04 2014 07:00 Teoita wrote: Im not familiar with that style, but if you like templar builds try these: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=426047 What about sOs' oracle -> double forge -> zealot archon style? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
a) playing robo-less is extremely hard imo. Oracles as drop defense/map control/scouting in general are super apm intensive. I guess if you are top master in kr you are ok with that, but i personally found i couldnt get enough out of the stargate tech because of my shit mechanics. b) going archon and going templar are pretty different. As i posted in that guide, attacking with templar is extremely hard because of how slow they are. Archons on the other hand are a great offensive unit because they can keep up with zealots. Also, archons scale worse later on in the game, so you want to be aggressive with them if you make more than 1 or 2 for safety. c) the robo/templar build has great map control and harassment potential in the mid/lategame, while the stargate build gets the same in the early game So really they are fairly different styles, both very viable and powerful. You just have to find something you are comfortable with. | ||
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ArTiFaKs
United States1229 Posts
On January 04 2014 07:04 bigmanbigman wrote: What about sOs' oracle -> double forge -> zealot archon style? Day9 just did an awesome daily on Patience's PvT he used during his run at Dreamhack recently, it's a fast 3gate blink style that gets blink-stalkers out that really slow's down the Terran's infastructure, 3rd expansion and extra Barracks + Upgrades early on by just being mobile with about 6 blink stalkers early on while taking your 3rd and transitioning to Colossus and pumping out your upgrades. It's quite impressive and is versatile at the same time, leaving the door open to aggression depending on what your opponent does early on and how he reacts to the blink and all that. I'm terrible at explaining it so i'll just link it here lol but I suggest trying it out, he beat ton's of great Terran's using this exact build and the versatility is quite nice in the matchup. http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-663-patiences-pvt/ | ||
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Ruin
United States271 Posts
On January 04 2014 06:53 bigmanbigman wrote: Can someone help me figuring out this 3 base blink build protosses are doing vs terrans? I notice a lot of korean grandmasters do it so I'm keen in figuring out what it is, I can't see much past the build order in the match history and I'm trying to emulate this. Perhaps theres a vod or something out there but I just can't seem to find one. It basically goes like 1 gate fe, few gateway units, twilight, third, blink, etc. I can't see anything more past that. I'm having serious issues with PvT (top 25 master KR), even though PvT seems to be the easiest matchup for Protoss as of now. I just... can't win. lol Thanks in advance guys p.s.: im trying sos' double forge oracle into zealot/archon aggression maybe that will work but i'm trying to figure out different things so i know what works the best. other than the blink build above, can someone show me a vod or something of a solid pvt style that is pretty easy to use? i have like 40% win rate in pvt right now (all wins coming from expand into 3 gate blink). That sounds like the build oz used on akilon vs I think polt. Sorry I can't find the vod right now because I'm on my phone but it should be in wcs America. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On January 05 2014 06:21 aZealot wrote: Patience's execution of it was quite meta-gamey though, wasn't it? He did not scout and exploited the current fear of Blink Stalker all-ins. It seems vulnerable to fast WM play or even fast Cloaked Banshees but, it does look cool and, I guess, this is why you scout when on ladder (rather than playing Innovation as Patience did). And no build is perfect against everything. This is very common for professional players. Nobody does cloak banshees, so you don't mind leaving a vulnerability to it for an extra edge elsewhere. On the ladder however, you will never know what kind of random garbage will be thrown at you. I ran into 2 port banshee for the first time in years yesterday. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
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ArTiFaKs
United States1229 Posts
On January 05 2014 06:21 aZealot wrote: Patience's execution of it was quite meta-gamey though, wasn't it? He did not scout and exploited the current fear of Blink Stalker all-ins. It seems vulnerable to fast WM play or even fast Cloaked Banshees but, it does look cool and, I guess, this is why you scout when on ladder (rather than playing Innovation as Patience did). And no build is perfect against everything. No you can see he does scout. The first game day9 goes over he didn't get a full scout off, but saw that the Terran got a scout off with the reaper and saw the blink, so he could use that to his advantage. But the 2nd game Patience actually does get a full scout off, and notices that the 2rax 1 with reactor marines and only 1 with tech lab for marauders there wouldn't be enough marauders to hold off the blink all-in. So the scouting information is actually useful in what your reaction is. | ||
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ArTiFaKs
United States1229 Posts
On January 05 2014 07:59 aZealot wrote: Ironically, I just ran into cloaked banshees when trying this out. I lost as my Robo was not up. I rather like the build though and have been searching for something more active in PvT for a while now; PVT is my worst match-up. A bunker denies most forms of gateway aggression and it is just better to FE behind a MSC and Stalker. I dislike the passivity of it, though. The loss was my fault though, I scouted poorly (both at the start and later when I forgot to check that he had an expansion - too busy on the build, you see). His build was the 1-1-1. I'd have stomped it had I known in time. I'll keep working on the build. It looks fun. Lol ya i'm not sure what you could fit in to account for the cloaked banshee.. maybe throw down a forge or if you notice something weird maybe throw down a Robo faster? I've been working on the build also so i'll try some things out and see if it works. | ||
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VanSCPurge
United States169 Posts
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Eifer
United States138 Posts
On January 05 2014 13:24 VanSCPurge wrote: Recently, I've been struggling a lot with PvZ. I started doing the old 7-Gate Blink with +2 build, and at first I had a lot of success. However, I'm really struggling to adapt this to Gate expand and not FFE. It might sound silly but for some reason all of my timings are really slow when I try it with 1-Gate FE. Does anyone have any advice or know if this type of strategy has been hammered out for HotS already? I'd recommend doing a variation of your blink build that involves a quicker 3rd off 4 gateways & a TC for blink then one robo for immortal production an obs and a prism, and then a tech rush to templar with storm that syncs with +2 attack & +1 armor to hit a prehive timing. It wrecks roach/hydra, is safe vs early aggression and soft counters mutas due to blink + storm. It's a very safe conservative build with a powerful economy relative to an economically focused zerg that is flexible for lategame play & hits an anti timing around ~16:00-17:00 that is extremely difficult to hold assuming competent forcefields, blink micro, and a nearby prism with stalker reinforcements. The storms really aren't necessary because the stalker/sentry/immortal ball should be able to win on its own and the storms make it a landslide. | ||
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VanSCPurge
United States169 Posts
On January 05 2014 13:43 Eifer wrote: I'd recommend doing a variation of your blink build that involves a quicker 3rd off 4 gateways & a TC for blink then one robo for immortal production an obs and a prism, and then a tech rush to templar with storm that syncs with +2 attack & +1 armor to hit a prehive timing. It wrecks roach/hydra, is safe vs early aggression and soft counters mutas due to blink + storm. It's a very safe conservative build with a powerful economy relative to an economically focused zerg that is flexible for lategame play & hits an anti timing around ~16:00-17:00 that is extremely difficult to hold assuming competent forcefields, blink micro, and a nearby prism with stalker reinforcements. The storms really aren't necessary because the stalker/sentry/immortal ball should be able to win on its own and the storms make it a landslide. This is fairly helpful, especially for a macro game. I guess I was looking for something a little more aggressive (2 base), as that fits my play style a lot better. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On January 05 2014 14:09 VanSCPurge wrote: This is fairly helpful, especially for a macro game. I guess I was looking for something a little more aggressive (2 base), as that fits my play style a lot better. For gate expands, stick with either: 1) warp gate pressure with tech behind it: If you're looking for a more aggressive style, look to incorporate zealot pressures into your style. This is essentially 1 gate -> nexus -> 3-4 gate zealot pressure with MSC. Behind this, you can go stargate, robo, or twilight and follow up with a later timing or take a 3rd. Here's an example; to go other tech routes, just substitute a stargate or twilight for the robo. Also, you can learn this very aggressive build. or 2) forge + tech into a later timing: After expanding, make a forge + twilight/robo/stargate for some kind of later timing. This hits a little bit later (about the same time as FFE), but you have the advantage of being able to poke with early gateway units + MSC to force out lings and/or snipe queens and drones. Most often this later attack is used as a transition into a 3rd nexus (much like the old 2-base "pressures" in WoL worked). Personally I'm having a lot of success with going 3-gate/oracle pressure -> sentry/zealot/voidray poke -> voidray/archon/chargelot with lots of warpin aggression all around the map. Overall, I try to abuse recall as much as possible and never give the zerg player breathing room to sit back comfortably and macro up. | ||
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