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On January 05 2014 15:07 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2014 14:09 VanSCPurge wrote:On January 05 2014 13:43 Eifer wrote:On January 05 2014 13:24 VanSCPurge wrote:
Recently, I've been struggling a lot with PvZ. I started doing the old 7-Gate Blink with +2 build, and at first I had a lot of success. However, I'm really struggling to adapt this to Gate expand and not FFE. It might sound silly but for some reason all of my timings are really slow when I try it with 1-Gate FE. Does anyone have any advice or know if this type of strategy has been hammered out for HotS already? I'd recommend doing a variation of your blink build that involves a quicker 3rd off 4 gateways & a TC for blink then one robo for immortal production an obs and a prism, and then a tech rush to templar with storm that syncs with +2 attack & +1 armor to hit a prehive timing. It wrecks roach/hydra, is safe vs early aggression and soft counters mutas due to blink + storm. It's a very safe conservative build with a powerful economy relative to an economically focused zerg that is flexible for lategame play & hits an anti timing around ~16:00-17:00 that is extremely difficult to hold assuming competent forcefields, blink micro, and a nearby prism with stalker reinforcements. The storms really aren't necessary because the stalker/sentry/immortal ball should be able to win on its own and the storms make it a landslide. This is fairly helpful, especially for a macro game. I guess I was looking for something a little more aggressive (2 base), as that fits my play style a lot better. For gate expands, stick with either: 1) warp gate pressure with tech behind it: If you're looking for a more aggressive style, look to incorporate zealot pressures into your style. This is essentially 1 gate -> nexus -> 3-4 gate zealot pressure with MSC. Behind this, you can go stargate, robo, or twilight and follow up with a later timing or take a 3rd. Here's an example; to go other tech routes, just substitute a stargate or twilight for the robo. Also, you can learn this very aggressive build.or 2) forge + tech into a later timing: After expanding, make a forge + twilight/robo/stargate for some kind of later timing. This hits a little bit later (about the same time as FFE), but you have the advantage of being able to poke with early gateway units + MSC to force out lings and/or snipe queens and drones. Most often this later attack is used as a transition into a 3rd nexus (much like the old 2-base "pressures" in WoL worked). Personally I'm having a lot of success with going 3-gate/oracle pressure -> sentry/zealot/voidray poke -> voidray/archon/chargelot with lots of warpin aggression all around the map. Overall, I try to abuse recall as much as possible and never give the zerg player breathing room to sit back comfortably and macro up.
Thanks a ton, I'll try putting this to use tomorrow. Hopefully this helps. I was right around 40% PvZ last season.
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Italy12248 Posts
You can do fast third builds into whatever tech (usually either a blink 3base timing or stargate for chargelot/archon/void) off gateway fe too. Naniwa does those builds quite a lot for instance.
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I'm trying protoss but I'm not a SC2 noob.
What's the most consistent way to win from bronze to gold as protoss?
Should I do all-ins, play safe and turtle to stronger armies a mix depending on the match-up?
I can play any style, just want highest winrate possible.
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Italy12248 Posts
There is no right or wrong answer to that, both styles are viable at any level of play. You just need to find what you are comfortable with.
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On January 06 2014 04:06 Teoita wrote:
There is no right or wrong answer to that, both styles are viable at any level of play. You just need to find what you are comfortable with.
OK, I'll try to be more specific.
For example, in PvP is there an all-in that works consistently (if I execute and micro better) or are they mostly coin flips looking to inflict build order losses? I don't know all the builds, so...
In PvZ, I think the most consistent way to win is a strong 2 base all-in, or a very agro style. I think macro toss vs a Zerg is a very hard style to play.
In PvT, no idea. I saw a thread recently where a guy crushes diamond by just going 2 base archon/immortal all the way, maybe that's easier than a blink all-in and better results.
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Canada13430 Posts
On January 06 2014 04:21 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2014 04:06 Teoita wrote:
There is no right or wrong answer to that, both styles are viable at any level of play. You just need to find what you are comfortable with. OK, I'll try to be more specific. For example, in PvP is there an all-in that works consistently (if I execute and micro better) or are they mostly coin flips looking to inflict build order losses? I don't know all the builds, so... In PvZ, I think the most consistent way to win is a strong 2 base all-in, or a very agro style. I think macro toss vs a Zerg is a very hard style to play. In PvT, no idea. I saw a thread recently where a guy crushes diamond by just going 2 base archon/immortal all the way, maybe that's easier than a blink all-in and better results.
3 gate stargate would be the most consistent least coinflippy all in. Coinflips are unavoidable though PvP
PvZ 2 base all ins executed well can win at almost any level of play on almost any map.
PvT the 2 AoE army of collossus and templar is the most consistent way to win.
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On January 06 2014 04:34 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2014 04:21 Azoryen wrote:On January 06 2014 04:06 Teoita wrote:
There is no right or wrong answer to that, both styles are viable at any level of play. You just need to find what you are comfortable with. OK, I'll try to be more specific. For example, in PvP is there an all-in that works consistently (if I execute and micro better) or are they mostly coin flips looking to inflict build order losses? I don't know all the builds, so... In PvZ, I think the most consistent way to win is a strong 2 base all-in, or a very agro style. I think macro toss vs a Zerg is a very hard style to play. In PvT, no idea. I saw a thread recently where a guy crushes diamond by just going 2 base archon/immortal all the way, maybe that's easier than a blink all-in and better results. 3 gate stargate would be the most consistent least coinflippy all in. Coinflips are unavoidable though PvP PvZ 2 base all ins executed well can win at almost any level of play on almost any map. PvT the 2 AoE army of collossus and templar is the most consistent way to win.
Thx a lot.
By 3 gate stargate you mean proxy oracle + 3 gates or phoenix play?
Do you know where I can find a good example replay/vod of the PvT style?
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Italy12248 Posts
You dont have to proxy the stargate but yes, things like 2x oracle/3gate stalker pressure is extremely potent.
What zeromus is talking about is simple, straight up macro PvT; a big 3base economy is the only way to be able to afford both templar and colossus. I suggest you find a pro player you like and copy his macro builds, there's a huge variety of them out there.
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On January 06 2014 05:01 Teoita wrote:
You dont have to proxy the stargate but yes, things like 2x oracle/3gate stalker pressure is extremely potent.
What zeromus is talking about is simple, straight up macro PvT; a big 3base economy is the only way to be able to afford both templar and colossus. I suggest you find a pro player you like and copy his macro builds, there's a huge variety of them out there.
Thx, you guys are great!
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Another noob question: what do you all normally do to defend early oracle aggression? I just finished a game where my early gateway aggression lost to a VR opening (did not realize how strong photon overcharge was and had stupid engagements), then we both expanded and things looked relatively even. However, he made three oracles and just kept sending them to my main mineral line, and I had all of my army defending my natural... needless to say my workers got massacred and I ended up with only 5, which was basically gg. So do you all just camp three or four stalkers near your mineral line when you know the opponent has a stargate, do you use photon overcharge, or do you do something else entirely? Normally I deal with drops pretty well, but damn, oracles gud unit.
Thank you Teoita!
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Italy12248 Posts
Yeah you need to keep at least 2 stalkers per mineral line vs stargate openers for very reason. I use overcharge when i know it will kill the oracle or at least damage it significantly.
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On January 06 2014 06:15 Chocolate wrote:
Another noob question: what do you all normally do to defend early oracle aggression? I just finished a game where my early gateway aggression lost to a VR opening (did not realize how strong photon overcharge was and had stupid engagements), then we both expanded and things looked relatively even. However, he made three oracles and just kept sending them to my main mineral line, and I had all of my army defending my natural... needless to say my workers got massacred and I ended up with only 5, which was basically gg. So do you all just camp three or four stalkers near your mineral line when you know the opponent has a stargate, do you use photon overcharge, or do you do something else entirely? Normally I deal with drops pretty well, but damn, oracles gud unit.
Thank you Teoita!
I think at the moment, oracle is the "strongest" opening overall. Since the new buff, 2 stalkers aren't enough to stop completely an oracle. You need 3, which is 375/150 for an unit which costs 150/150 and still provides great scouting even if it doesn't do damage. And that's for a single oracle, if you get caught off guard and he builds 3 or more it's a disaster.
If you don't open stargate you will always end up behind against an oracle player because of this. Even when I face blink, I feel like I'm ahead, because I can force him to warp in stalkers at home and keep sniping some probes now and then while I mass void rays and immortals.
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Italy12248 Posts
Yeah stargate is insanely strong in pvp atm. Too bad mirrors are coinflippy and boring as hell ;(
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I was curious as to how often highly ranked Protosses do some kind of harass on 2 bases while taking a quick 3rd in pvz? Is it effective or is it bad to force units while trying to take a 3rd.
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I also wanted to ask if Partings PvP pro league blink build is still good as a standard build in pvp. I ask this because in the guide it says it is a very reactive build (because of the very early MSC scout and many possible deviations) . however with the popularity of stargate openings and dt openings i am not sure if it is good. I hear that opening dt is a very safe option. however for example I'm not sure if the 2 gate safe fe is all that good anymore.. or what kinds of 1 gate few people are doing i npvp.
Its hard to tell from the FAQ because everything seems outdated… well not everything my apogees but some of it .
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On January 06 2014 08:57 JSK wrote:
I was curious as to how often highly ranked Protosses do some kind of harass on 2 bases while taking a quick 3rd in pvz? Is it effective or is it bad to force units while trying to take a 3rd.
It depends. In PvZ, either you take a really fast third base (~6:30) or you need to do some kind of pressure. They're both good although personally I don't really feel comfortable going into the midgame without pressuring the zerg so I prefer the latter.
On January 06 2014 09:17 JSK wrote:I also wanted to ask if Partings PvP pro league blink build is still good as a standard build in pvp. I ask this because in the guide it says it is a very reactive build (because of the very early MSC scout and many possible deviations) . however with the popularity of stargate openings and dt openings i am not sure if it is good. I hear that opening dt is a very safe option. however for example I'm not sure if the 2 gate safe fe is all that good anymore.. or what kinds of 1 gate few people are doing i npvp. Its hard to tell from the FAQ because everything seems outdated… well not everything my apogees but some of it .
2 gate robo FE is still the safest build to expand quickly, only a stargate expand opening can take an advantage over it. 1 gate FE dies to every all in so it's not very common, neither in ladder nor in tournaments. Sometimes people use it when they know their opponent doesn't scout and doesn't play very aggressive.
Fast DTs with robo is probably the safest build in PvP, because dts can buy you a lot of time or win you the game immediately against every all in/pressure. However it's a bit frustrating because if your opponent plays very greedy you can't punish him; for example against a 2 gate robo FE you can't do any damage and you are forced to go into the midgame in a disadvantage.
I don't know about Parting's blink build but I don't see blink as a particularly strong opening at the moment, since it can be beaten with both stargate and robo, and it's also tricky against DTs.
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First time posting, so please forgive me if I have confused the rules and put this in the wrong place. Simple question which I'm sure must be answered somewhere on here but I just can't find. Anytime Z goes muta switch on me, it is an auto loss. What is the best response to taking on muta flocks? HT, blink, pheonix (although that probably wont work bc I have already usually produced a chunk of VR by this point). Any help would be appreciated.
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On January 07 2014 06:47 stlrfan345 wrote:
First time posting, so please forgive me if I have confused the rules and put this in the wrong place. Simple question which I'm sure must be answered somewhere on here but I just can't find. Anytime Z goes muta switch on me, it is an auto loss. What is the best response to taking on muta flocks? HT, blink, pheonix (although that probably wont work bc I have already usually produced a chunk of VR by this point). Any help would be appreciated.
The only way to fight muta flocks with any level of efficiency is with phoenixes. Unless you're already substantially ahead, it's impossible to defend every part of every base with just ground units. Without phoenixes you're forced to base race, which is almost always a losing proposition for protoss.
By far the most important part of fighting mutas is what you do before they come out. Blizzard gave protoss an incredible scouting tool in HOTS with no-research hallucination, and it should be used often to see both his tech and the units he's producing. If you see a spire going up while he makes nonstop roaches and hydras, the spire is probably for corruptors and you'll be dead if you go 3 SG phoenix. Often zergs will fake a ground attack with a few units while going mutas in the background, so it's vital to see what's going on at his base as much as possible.
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On January 07 2014 06:47 stlrfan345 wrote:
First time posting, so please forgive me if I have confused the rules and put this in the wrong place. Simple question which I'm sure must be answered somewhere on here but I just can't find. Anytime Z goes muta switch on me, it is an auto loss. What is the best response to taking on muta flocks? HT, blink, pheonix (although that probably wont work bc I have already usually produced a chunk of VR by this point). Any help would be appreciated.
I've found the only thing that works for me is if i see a spire, that is the point to put on constant pressure. If you let zerg build up enough of a bank to make 20 mutas, you've lots the game.
My solution has been to constantly scout with hallucinated phoniex to see when they put down that spire. Pretty much unless it's late game 4 base scenario anything earlier my goal is to make sure I force him to make roaches lings etc and not have the resources to actually make a decent ball of muta.
I find if you attack as they are trying to build the ball, they will be extremely weak at that point. In most cases you might hae 1 collosus and a bunch of gateway units, and you should be able to do substantial damage. Also they are generally forced to fight with the 5 or so mutas that they do have and then have to replace them.
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On January 07 2014 07:42 Dracover wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2014 06:47 stlrfan345 wrote:
First time posting, so please forgive me if I have confused the rules and put this in the wrong place. Simple question which I'm sure must be answered somewhere on here but I just can't find. Anytime Z goes muta switch on me, it is an auto loss. What is the best response to taking on muta flocks? HT, blink, pheonix (although that probably wont work bc I have already usually produced a chunk of VR by this point). Any help would be appreciated. I've found the only thing that works for me is if i see a spire, that is the point to put on constant pressure. If you let zerg build up enough of a bank to make 20 mutas, you've lots the game. My solution has been to constantly scout with hallucinated phoniex to see when they put down that spire. Pretty much unless it's late game 4 base scenario anything earlier my goal is to make sure I force him to make roaches lings etc and not have the resources to actually make a decent ball of muta. I find if you attack as they are trying to build the ball, they will be extremely weak at that point. In most cases you might hae 1 collosus and a bunch of gateway units, and you should be able to do substantial damage. Also they are generally forced to fight with the 5 or so mutas that they do have and then have to replace them.
I just open Phoenix every game. 5 Phoenix can do incredible amounts of damage (even with spores) and have great scouting as long as you have the apm for it. When you scout a spire you continue Phoenix production and add a couple cannons per base and you should be good.
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EPT
