Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders.
On January 07 2014 06:47 stlrfan345 wrote: First time posting, so please forgive me if I have confused the rules and put this in the wrong place. Simple question which I'm sure must be answered somewhere on here but I just can't find. Anytime Z goes muta switch on me, it is an auto loss. What is the best response to taking on muta flocks? HT, blink, pheonix (although that probably wont work bc I have already usually produced a chunk of VR by this point). Any help would be appreciated.
You either all in them or go Phoenix. Storms aren't very good against mutas any more because they regenerate hp in hots.
On January 06 2014 09:17 JSK wrote: I also wanted to ask if Partings PvP pro league blink build is still good as a standard build in pvp. I ask this because in the guide it says it is a very reactive build (because of the very early MSC scout and many possible deviations) . however with the popularity of stargate openings and dt openings i am not sure if it is good. I hear that opening dt is a very safe option. however for example I'm not sure if the 2 gate safe fe is all that good anymore.. or what kinds of 1 gate few people are doing i npvp.
Its hard to tell from the FAQ because everything seems outdated… well not everything my apogees but some of it .
I go blink or dt almost every game. The key is to have good scouting or get an early robo so you don't die to dts. 2 gate dt robo fe is the safest build right now because you can defend a 10 gate 3 gate without scouting it and it leads into dt drops and an expansion easily.
Guys, how do you defend your third vs. Terran on "Heavy Rain" going Colossus first? I spotted him coming so I had my units in position (opened Robo) and he just picked up everything and doom dropped the main and focused down nexus faster than I could go around. If I split my army in half he just kills it outright. My colos can walk up and down the cliff but all the supporting units can't.
Also I seem to be the only one but I'm really struggling against Terran lately. Is it me or have their 10 ish min pushes gotten stronger lately? I used to easily hold these pushes off with 1 colossus and a handful of units. Now Terran just arrives at my doorstep, stims, and annihilates me almost every game.
Then again could be that I'm just playing better Terrans because my PvP and PvZ are getting really good :/
I've tried playing a 1gate expand into 3gate blink opening into colossus style on Heavy Rain (the build Oz/HerO used a lot in WCS America). Basically to threaten blinking into their main but also defend against drops once I got my third established and colossi coming out. I do this with a single forge build, getting +1 attack first (helps with picking off units with stalkers and you'll have 1/1 in time for the medivac moveout either way). The early twilight council also helps with getting charge rather fast which is what really helps me defend multiple drops. So you kind of end up with a single forge colossus blink and charge army. It does get annoying at times though, especially if they open with 2 tech labs and one reactor because marauders are really good against stalkers and sparingly protected colossi, who knew.
Regarding muta: keep in mind that sometimes it's impossible to keep the pressure on constantly as you would just throw away units, so sometimes you really have to make phoenix or baserace.
regarding the op: yeah it's outdated as shit, ill get to updating it eventually. I dont have much time atm tho.
The key to beating muta is to either pressure so he can't build enough or to be prepared and have Phoenix already made. If you are reactively fighting agaisnt a muta flock you're pretty much lost already unfortunately.
I usually open 4 gate + Robo with +1 and pressure with immortal sentry into Colossus with constant attacking/warp prism drops. The constant attacks force him to make units that can fihgt. The drops help me harass and scout tech switches.
Have anyone seen Stats vs RorO in SPL today? (And like 3 or 4 similar pvz before) I mean do u guys have any ideas how to counter Corruptor/Locust/infestor/viper + billions of spors. Zerg can also trade some staff for queens/broodlords but that wont change anything. Going Swarmhost almost every macro game seems to be a new meta for pvz (no hype intended). I have a lot of this shit on ladder. And i have no freaking idea how to beat this. For those who are wondering what i'm talking about
On January 08 2014 04:17 insitelol wrote: Have anyone seen Stats vs RorO in SPL today? (And like 3 or 4 similar pvz before) I mean do u guys have any ideas how to counter Corruptor/Locust/infestor/viper + billions of spors. Zerg can also trade some staff for queens/broodlords but that wont change anything. Going Swarmhost almost every macro game seems to be a new meta for pvz (no hype intended). I have a lot of this shit on ladder. And i have no freaking idea how to beat this. For those who are wondering what i'm talking about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op9onl8LqcE
A TON of zerg's are doing that style in ProLeague right now with great success. You should watch the Terminator vs Hydra game in the Jin Air vs CJ matchup. Hydra trys to use that same style and Terminator get's out a Mothership - having a Mothership helps a ton because the zerg is forced to keep detection with every wave of locusts otherwise the locust waves are useless because of the invisible units. And then you just get Void Rays start upgrading air and mix in some Tempests or Carriers + Void Rays/Colossus for the locusts. And if he has way too much Spores/Corropters start warping in zealots to take out the spores so you don't waste your air/deathball killing static defense. or just make sure your Mothership is far enough away that it's not getting hit. But that's really the only thing that works right now, and of course abusing the fact that the Zerg has a very immobile army and constantly warp in units at the opposite side of the map to cancel bases and all that. It's almost impossible to trade efficiently in this scenario as Protoss because of the Free Units from zerg and the ultra expensive units that Protoss needs to fight them effectively. You need a lot of bases - if you ahve a lot of minerals saved up start dropping down cannons abunch of cannons and then just use your deathball to eat away at the Zerg infrastructure while warping in across the map with Warp Prism or proxy pylon.
If anyone else has stuff to add i'd like to hear it because I have lots of trouble against this composition as well, I just can't ever seem to get a good enough trade or get the Zerg economy weak enough to where he can't just instantly remake his army after a big fight Which is why I usually do some sort of 2 base all-in so I don't have to get to this point lol
On January 08 2014 04:38 ArTiFaKs wrote: Which is why I usually do some sort of 2 base all-in so I don't have to get to this point lol
Yes. This is pretty much what i'm doing for 1 year already. I'm just wondering when would this end. In the beginning of HoTs there was a small period where Zergz hadn't figured out the meta but now it's coming again. I'm so frustrated with my race.
edit: well i watched hydra vs terminator. it's rather meh cause hydra messed up with his muta which cost him billions of gaz and didn't kill a single unit and instead of going corruptor/muta he goes locust and then, when it mattered it the engagement he ended up with only 3 infestors. Hydra just played bad. That doesnt count.
From my experience, Collosus+HT+Voidrays+Mothership works kinda well. You need to use Zealot warp-ins from Warp Prism, but unfortunatelly most Zergs learned how to deal with this, so they will have Spines + some Spores ready. Usually Infestors and Vipers are last units, which Zerg adds to the mix (obviously), so you should strike before Zerg has larger numbers of these. Another way is mass Voidray from 3 stargates, but once he builds Infestors you are pretty much screwed. But both these strategies are relying on Zerg playing badly, so its just meh. All in all, i have found, that the best way to beat Zerg is just 2 base all-in. I do not really know, how to reliably beat this or mass Muta in a macro game, unless Zerg fucks up really badly. Just kill him before he can get Swarmhosts or Mutas. We have plenty of very strong 2 base all-ins.
On January 08 2014 04:38 ArTiFaKs wrote: Which is why I usually do some sort of 2 base all-in so I don't have to get to this point lol
Yes. This is pretty much what i'm doing for 1 year already. I'm just wondering when would this end. In the beginning of HoTs there was a small period where Zergz hadn't figured out the meta but now it's coming again. I'm so frustrated with my race.
edit: well i watched hydra vs terminator. it's rather meh cause hydra messed up with his muta which cost him billions of gaz and didn't kill a single unit and instead of going corruptor/muta he goes locust and then, when it mattered it the engagement he ended up with only 3 infestors. Hydra just played bad. That doesnt count.
Ya that's what I was saying, it pretty much takes a mistake from the Zerg, but the general idea of getting Mothership with the Colossus/skytoss combination while countering at other locations taking advantage of the immobility of the zerg's composition. You notice at the end of the game Hydra had barely any economy and resources, which is usually the opposite when using that composition. But I agree with your point that it was basically a lot of mistakes from Hydra that won the game not necessarily Terminators play. Although the case could be made that it was Terminators decision making that forced the errors so it's really the only thing I've noticed that has any chance of trading at all with that composition on a semi-efficient level. And you basically have to ensure you have more bases then the Zerg, which is normally the opposite but you can't afford to let Zerg bank up masses of resources.
On January 08 2014 01:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I've tried playing a 1gate expand into 3gate blink opening into colossus style on Heavy Rain (the build Oz/HerO used a lot in WCS America). Basically to threaten blinking into their main but also defend against drops once I got my third established and colossi coming out. I do this with a single forge build, getting +1 attack first (helps with picking off units with stalkers and you'll have 1/1 in time for the medivac moveout either way). The early twilight council also helps with getting charge rather fast which is what really helps me defend multiple drops. So you kind of end up with a single forge colossus blink and charge army. It does get annoying at times though, especially if they open with 2 tech labs and one reactor because marauders are really good against stalkers and sparingly protected colossi, who knew.
No need to do a half-hearted 3-gate blink. Just go fucking balls to the wall 2-Base Blink All-in. Terran can't defend every angle on that map and has to sacrifice something or just die a horrible death. Plus, it transitions just as smoothly, if not better, than the build you're describing.
Also, I think templar are better on Heavy Rain than colossus, but I'm starting to believe they're just always better anyway.
On January 08 2014 01:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I've tried playing a 1gate expand into 3gate blink opening into colossus style on Heavy Rain (the build Oz/HerO used a lot in WCS America). Basically to threaten blinking into their main but also defend against drops once I got my third established and colossi coming out. I do this with a single forge build, getting +1 attack first (helps with picking off units with stalkers and you'll have 1/1 in time for the medivac moveout either way). The early twilight council also helps with getting charge rather fast which is what really helps me defend multiple drops. So you kind of end up with a single forge colossus blink and charge army. It does get annoying at times though, especially if they open with 2 tech labs and one reactor because marauders are really good against stalkers and sparingly protected colossi, who knew.
No need to do a half-hearted 3-gate blink. Just go fucking balls to the wall 2-Base Blink All-in. Terran can't defend every angle on that map and has to sacrifice something or just die a horrible death. Plus, it transitions just as smoothly, if not better, than the build you're describing.
Also, I think templar are better on Heavy Rain than colossus, but I'm starting to believe they're just always better anyway.
I've been going straight into templar against terran for a long time now, I'm pretty convinced they're better than colossi before ghosts are on the field. Doesn't really matter which map: unless I'm hitting an all-in timing, I go templar vs. terran.
On January 08 2014 01:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I've tried playing a 1gate expand into 3gate blink opening into colossus style on Heavy Rain (the build Oz/HerO used a lot in WCS America). Basically to threaten blinking into their main but also defend against drops once I got my third established and colossi coming out. I do this with a single forge build, getting +1 attack first (helps with picking off units with stalkers and you'll have 1/1 in time for the medivac moveout either way). The early twilight council also helps with getting charge rather fast which is what really helps me defend multiple drops. So you kind of end up with a single forge colossus blink and charge army. It does get annoying at times though, especially if they open with 2 tech labs and one reactor because marauders are really good against stalkers and sparingly protected colossi, who knew.
No need to do a half-hearted 3-gate blink. Just go fucking balls to the wall 2-Base Blink All-in. Terran can't defend every angle on that map and has to sacrifice something or just die a horrible death. Plus, it transitions just as smoothly, if not better, than the build you're describing.
Also, I think templar are better on Heavy Rain than colossus, but I'm starting to believe they're just always better anyway.
I've been going straight into templar against terran for a long time now, I'm pretty convinced they're better than colossi before ghosts are on the field. Doesn't really matter which map: unless I'm hitting an all-in timing, I go templar vs. terran.
Colossus in the late game is necessary though, but i agree opening templar is much easier to defend drops and what not, but I've noticed Terran's going heavy marauder and mixing in hellbats even vs the zealot/archon/templar style and it's tough to beat that without colossus.
On January 08 2014 01:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I've tried playing a 1gate expand into 3gate blink opening into colossus style on Heavy Rain (the build Oz/HerO used a lot in WCS America). Basically to threaten blinking into their main but also defend against drops once I got my third established and colossi coming out. I do this with a single forge build, getting +1 attack first (helps with picking off units with stalkers and you'll have 1/1 in time for the medivac moveout either way). The early twilight council also helps with getting charge rather fast which is what really helps me defend multiple drops. So you kind of end up with a single forge colossus blink and charge army. It does get annoying at times though, especially if they open with 2 tech labs and one reactor because marauders are really good against stalkers and sparingly protected colossi, who knew.
No need to do a half-hearted 3-gate blink. Just go fucking balls to the wall 2-Base Blink All-in. Terran can't defend every angle on that map and has to sacrifice something or just die a horrible death. Plus, it transitions just as smoothly, if not better, than the build you're describing.
Also, I think templar are better on Heavy Rain than colossus, but I'm starting to believe they're just always better anyway.
I've been going straight into templar against terran for a long time now, I'm pretty convinced they're better than colossi before ghosts are on the field. Doesn't really matter which map: unless I'm hitting an all-in timing, I go templar vs. terran.
Colossus in the late game is necessary though, but i agree opening templar is much easier to defend drops and what not, but I've noticed Terran's going heavy marauder and mixing in hellbats even vs the zealot/archon/templar style and it's tough to beat that without colossus.
It's not that bad vs. marauder hellbat, archons destroy hellbats and you can add in some immortals if you detect a high number of marauders. You just need to be less zealot heavy and control them more carefully. I would also prioritize feedback on the medivacs over storm against that composition in the mid-game. Mothership core and sentry can zone hellbats fairly well, and they're less able to use medivac boost to drop hellbats on your units when you can and will feedback the medivacs for trying it.
On January 08 2014 01:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I've tried playing a 1gate expand into 3gate blink opening into colossus style on Heavy Rain (the build Oz/HerO used a lot in WCS America). Basically to threaten blinking into their main but also defend against drops once I got my third established and colossi coming out. I do this with a single forge build, getting +1 attack first (helps with picking off units with stalkers and you'll have 1/1 in time for the medivac moveout either way). The early twilight council also helps with getting charge rather fast which is what really helps me defend multiple drops. So you kind of end up with a single forge colossus blink and charge army. It does get annoying at times though, especially if they open with 2 tech labs and one reactor because marauders are really good against stalkers and sparingly protected colossi, who knew.
No need to do a half-hearted 3-gate blink. Just go fucking balls to the wall 2-Base Blink All-in. Terran can't defend every angle on that map and has to sacrifice something or just die a horrible death. Plus, it transitions just as smoothly, if not better, than the build you're describing.
Also, I think templar are better on Heavy Rain than colossus, but I'm starting to believe they're just always better anyway.
I've been going straight into templar against terran for a long time now, I'm pretty convinced they're better than colossi before ghosts are on the field. Doesn't really matter which map: unless I'm hitting an all-in timing, I go templar vs. terran.
Colossus in the late game is necessary though, but i agree opening templar is much easier to defend drops and what not, but I've noticed Terran's going heavy marauder and mixing in hellbats even vs the zealot/archon/templar style and it's tough to beat that without colossus.
It's not that bad vs. marauder hellbat, archons destroy hellbats and you can add in some immortals if you detect a high number of marauders. You just need to be less zealot heavy and control them more carefully. I would also prioritize feedback on the medivacs over storm against that composition in the mid-game. Mothership core and sentry can zone hellbats fairly well, and they're less able to use medivac boost to drop hellbats on your units when you can and will feedback the medivacs for trying it.
It's a sliding scale of when to get colossus where you let the terran take the reins as far as tech switching goes and just respond to him. If he decides to stick to large amounts of marauders and adds in hellbats, he's choosing to stay on a very "mid-gamey army", meaning you don't have to rush colossus and can focus on going immortal/archon/chargelot (which WRECKS that comp). Once the terran starts adding in ghosts or going marine-heavy, he's opting for a more "lategame army", meaning that you should get colossus up sooner.
I've only been doing this style for a week, so I haven't hammered out the details and timings perfectly yet. But I'm pretty sure you don't have to rush colossus when going for templar. That's something we should use as an advantage.
On January 08 2014 01:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I've tried playing a 1gate expand into 3gate blink opening into colossus style on Heavy Rain (the build Oz/HerO used a lot in WCS America). Basically to threaten blinking into their main but also defend against drops once I got my third established and colossi coming out. I do this with a single forge build, getting +1 attack first (helps with picking off units with stalkers and you'll have 1/1 in time for the medivac moveout either way). The early twilight council also helps with getting charge rather fast which is what really helps me defend multiple drops. So you kind of end up with a single forge colossus blink and charge army. It does get annoying at times though, especially if they open with 2 tech labs and one reactor because marauders are really good against stalkers and sparingly protected colossi, who knew.
No need to do a half-hearted 3-gate blink. Just go fucking balls to the wall 2-Base Blink All-in. Terran can't defend every angle on that map and has to sacrifice something or just die a horrible death. Plus, it transitions just as smoothly, if not better, than the build you're describing.
Also, I think templar are better on Heavy Rain than colossus, but I'm starting to believe they're just always better anyway.
I've been going straight into templar against terran for a long time now, I'm pretty convinced they're better than colossi before ghosts are on the field. Doesn't really matter which map: unless I'm hitting an all-in timing, I go templar vs. terran.
Colossus in the late game is necessary though, but i agree opening templar is much easier to defend drops and what not, but I've noticed Terran's going heavy marauder and mixing in hellbats even vs the zealot/archon/templar style and it's tough to beat that without colossus.
It's not that bad vs. marauder hellbat, archons destroy hellbats and you can add in some immortals if you detect a high number of marauders. You just need to be less zealot heavy and control them more carefully. I would also prioritize feedback on the medivacs over storm against that composition in the mid-game. Mothership core and sentry can zone hellbats fairly well, and they're less able to use medivac boost to drop hellbats on your units when you can and will feedback the medivacs for trying it.
It's a sliding scale of when to get colossus where you let the terran take the reins as far as tech switching goes and just respond to him. If he decides to stick to large amounts of marauders and adds in hellbats, he's choosing to stay on a very "mid-gamey army", meaning you don't have to rush colossus and can focus on going immortal/archon/chargelot (which WRECKS that comp). Once the terran starts adding in ghosts or going marine-heavy, he's opting for a more "lategame army", meaning that you should get colossus up sooner.
I've only been doing this style for a week, so I haven't hammered out the details and timings perfectly yet. But I'm pretty sure you don't have to rush colossus when going for templar. That's something we should use as an advantage.
I've been doing this style for a long time, and I've found that it really depends on how solid your HT micro vs. ghosts is. It's hard, but if you can reliably protect 5-6 storms for major engagements later on, you can wait to do a colossus switch until after you're on 4 bases, and can easily afford a double robo switch on the 7th and 8th geyser. If you aren't sure you can manage to take a 4th, then you definitely need to start the robo switch a lot earlier. I like to delay the robo switch because when I open templar, I can usually get a kill move right as colossus 3 and 4 are coming out (when extended thermal lance is finishing), as they'll have practically no vikings.
I've found that if he rushes ghosts out quickly to deal with your forces, you can just overwhelm his army with decent micro and good production, since his army won't be that big. If his ghosts come later, that's when you'll really want the colossus to come out, but you can still delay for a while if your micro is good to buy some time.
But yeah, marauder/hellbat is a very timing centric build: archon/zealot with some feedbacks does fine against it, and some immortals in the comp will annihilate it.
On January 08 2014 01:28 DarkLordOlli wrote: I've tried playing a 1gate expand into 3gate blink opening into colossus style on Heavy Rain (the build Oz/HerO used a lot in WCS America). Basically to threaten blinking into their main but also defend against drops once I got my third established and colossi coming out. I do this with a single forge build, getting +1 attack first (helps with picking off units with stalkers and you'll have 1/1 in time for the medivac moveout either way). The early twilight council also helps with getting charge rather fast which is what really helps me defend multiple drops. So you kind of end up with a single forge colossus blink and charge army. It does get annoying at times though, especially if they open with 2 tech labs and one reactor because marauders are really good against stalkers and sparingly protected colossi, who knew.
No need to do a half-hearted 3-gate blink. Just go fucking balls to the wall 2-Base Blink All-in. Terran can't defend every angle on that map and has to sacrifice something or just die a horrible death. Plus, it transitions just as smoothly, if not better, than the build you're describing.
Also, I think templar are better on Heavy Rain than colossus, but I'm starting to believe they're just always better anyway.
I've been going straight into templar against terran for a long time now, I'm pretty convinced they're better than colossi before ghosts are on the field. Doesn't really matter which map: unless I'm hitting an all-in timing, I go templar vs. terran.
Colossus in the late game is necessary though, but i agree opening templar is much easier to defend drops and what not, but I've noticed Terran's going heavy marauder and mixing in hellbats even vs the zealot/archon/templar style and it's tough to beat that without colossus.
It's not that bad vs. marauder hellbat, archons destroy hellbats and you can add in some immortals if you detect a high number of marauders. You just need to be less zealot heavy and control them more carefully. I would also prioritize feedback on the medivacs over storm against that composition in the mid-game. Mothership core and sentry can zone hellbats fairly well, and they're less able to use medivac boost to drop hellbats on your units when you can and will feedback the medivacs for trying it.
It's a sliding scale of when to get colossus where you let the terran take the reins as far as tech switching goes and just respond to him. If he decides to stick to large amounts of marauders and adds in hellbats, he's choosing to stay on a very "mid-gamey army", meaning you don't have to rush colossus and can focus on going immortal/archon/chargelot (which WRECKS that comp). Once the terran starts adding in ghosts or going marine-heavy, he's opting for a more "lategame army", meaning that you should get colossus up sooner.
I've only been doing this style for a week, so I haven't hammered out the details and timings perfectly yet. But I'm pretty sure you don't have to rush colossus when going for templar. That's something we should use as an advantage.
I've been doing this style for a long time, and I've found that it really depends on how solid your HT micro vs. ghosts is. It's hard, but if you can reliably protect 5-6 storms for major engagements later on, you can wait to do a colossus switch until after you're on 4 bases, and can easily afford a double robo switch on the 7th and 8th geyser. If you aren't sure you can manage to take a 4th, then you definitely need to start the robo switch a lot earlier. I like to delay the robo switch because when I open templar, I can usually get a kill move right as colossus 3 and 4 are coming out (when extended thermal lance is finishing), as they'll have practically no vikings.
I've found that if he rushes ghosts out quickly to deal with your forces, you can just overwhelm his army with decent micro and good production, since his army won't be that big. If his ghosts come later, that's when you'll really want the colossus to come out, but you can still delay for a while if your micro is good to buy some time.
But yeah, marauder/hellbat is a very timing centric build: archon/zealot with some feedbacks does fine against it, and some immortals in the comp will annihilate it.
Ya I guess that's what I really meant to say, is that when you swap to Colossus later on there's usually hardly any vikings and it's very powerful at that time. But you pretty much summed up what I was thinking a lot better lol. But thanks for the tips I'll have to tweak my play a bit and focus more on some of these things instead. But I think we all agree it's a great composition!
2 ArTiFaKs, w3c.True Thanks, guys. Sticking to 14- min timings from 2/3 bases as always. Been considering a race switch to terran for few months but it would take so much time to adjust to a new gameplay, i'm kinda lost.
EPT
Which is why I usually do some sort of 2 base all-in so I don't have to get to this point lol
