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United States4883 Posts
Been looking for new PvZ builds and ran into this one during the Code S Ro16 the other night. It's basically a 1-gate FE into a sentry/immortal all-in. Obviously Dear isn't the first person to do this strategy, but I liked his take on it in this game, and I think it was executed in good fashion.
VoD: Dear vs. DRG G3
Non-GOM VoD: Dear vs. DRG G3 (twitch.tv)
The Build:
Dear's 2-base Immortal all-in PvZ
9 pylon (chronoboost x4 on nexus)
13 gate
14 gas
16 pylon
18 core
21 warp gate
**cut probe production**
21 nexus (3:45)
23 MSC
23 gas
23 pylon (at natural)
**resume probe production**
26 stalker
30 gateway x2 (5:00)
32 sentry
36 robo (5:50)
Warp in 6x zealots at proxy
Pressure 3rd with zealot/MSC
Immortal x3 -> moveout at 9:00
Add 4 gateways at 8:30
MSC stays at home
Dear opens with a stalker and a sentry to deny any overlord scouts while trying to hide his robo from view. When warp gate is done (6:30), Dear warps in 2 rounds of zealots at a hidden pylon near his opponent's 3rd to pressure and force zerglings; this pressure can outright kill the 3rd base of a zerg player who skips speed and doesn't react early enough. When the ling count gets too high, Dear simply recalls out and retains as many zealots as possible. During this time, he is constantly building workers and dumping all of his chronoboost into immortals. At 3 immortals (~9:00), he pushes out on the map and walls off his natural with 2 additional pylons. Probe production is cut at exactly 39 (16 on minerals (x2), 3 on gas (x2), and one probe out on the map for building pylons. The attack hits with ~3 immortals, 7 zealots, 6 sentries, and a stalker at 9:30. Dear's heavy usage of zealots makes sense because the early warpins forced primarily zerglings. I assume that once the roach count starts getting high, he would probably switch to primarily stalker warpins (though in this game DRG tried to use ling/bling to defend).
Dear leaves his MsC at home to defend against counterattack pressure (which happens, incidentally). Without cannons, this seems like the proper response as relying on defensive warpins is both less powerful and less economical for your push.
All in all, I think this is a fun little build. Along with a very potent attack timing, you have the potential for a wide array of builds you can go into because you open up with a gate expand, making it difficult for the zerg to account or scout for every single one. For instance, this build can just as well go stargate + natural gases after the initial overlord scout gets denied. You can build a forge instead of a 3rd gate and get +1 for a slightly later timing. Etc.
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I too was intrigued by Dears games in his group. It's pretty clear that he was able to prepare some sick PvZ strats with an all Zerg group, including this game. Thanks for writing this one up, I was planning on setting aside my Wednesday off for studying these games. I am worried that some of his more special and awesome builds are too prepared and specialized for practical use on the ladder. After reading your analysis and re-watching this game in particular I think this build is totally viable on the ladder, do you agree? I am worried about some fast hydra timings killing this attack, but I'm not familiar enough with what Zerg can have to answer this at the 9:00-9:30 mark after being pressured like this build entails. Maybe that's just me being scared because I'm garbage and fuck up those early gate expand attacks really often, lol.
What about the other builds' ladder viability though? I especially thought the voidray blink build was interesting and was gonna be the first one I tackled.
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United States4883 Posts
On September 24 2013 18:41 Sated wrote:
Isn't this just the Mantoss build..?
No, not at all. The Man Train includes an early forge for +1 weapons and is primarily immortal/zealot. It also only hits with 2 immortals and a warp prism while this build hits with 3 immortals (and a warp prism). Cross check: The MAN Train build.
On September 24 2013 13:37 Kommatiazo wrote:
I too was intrigued by Dears games in his group. It's pretty clear that he was able to prepare some sick PvZ strats with an all Zerg group, including this game. Thanks for writing this one up, I was planning on setting aside my Wednesday off for studying these games. I am worried that some of his more special and awesome builds are too prepared and specialized for practical use on the ladder. After reading your analysis and re-watching this game in particular I think this build is totally viable on the ladder, do you agree? I am worried about some fast hydra timings killing this attack, but I'm not familiar enough with what Zerg can have to answer this at the 9:00-9:30 mark after being pressured like this build entails. Maybe that's just me being scared because I'm garbage and fuck up those early gate expand attacks really often, lol.
What about the other builds' ladder viability though? I especially thought the voidray blink build was interesting and was gonna be the first one I tackled.
I might look into the void ray stalker game too, it WAS quite interesting. I'd have to go over the details, but I think it was a metagame build though. If you try to get a fast 3rd with void rays and then don't get some kind of AoE, you can straight up die to a strong hydra/ling timing. My guess is that you could use this build if you scout double evo though, as it implies roach/hydra (or sometimes ling/infestor into ultras).
As for this build, I think it's perfectly usable on ladder. It's a control build that allows you to control the way the zerg is moving around and reacting all game long. It's unlikely you would be against early hydras though. If you go gateway expand, zerg is kind of obligated to get earlier gas and a slightly later 3rd; if they still try to go for a really fast 3rd, they are in danger of losing it to an early gateway attack. Even if they were to dump all of their gas into lair to rush hydras, I don't think they could get both ling speed AND hydras in time for this attack. The early gateway pressure also forces lings, limiting drone production and creating a timing window where both players have about the same amount of economy (which is the basis for almost all 2-base protoss all-ins).
That's my gut analysis. I'll see if I can do more research on the void ray/stalker build and maybe post some notes.
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Thanks!
I really like this build, the ability to pressure the Zerg with a gate expand, limit their ability to take a third quickly and drone up in the first 8 minutes, and STILL hit at almost the exact same time (though with a few less units) seems absolutely amazing. I'll have to give it a shot!
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On September 24 2013 22:23 SC2John wrote:No, not at all. The Man Train includes an early forge for +1 weapons and is primarily immortal/zealot. It also only hits with 2 immortals and a warp prism while this build hits with 3 immortals (and a warp prism). Cross check: The MAN Train build.Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 13:37 Kommatiazo wrote:
I too was intrigued by Dears games in his group. It's pretty clear that he was able to prepare some sick PvZ strats with an all Zerg group, including this game. Thanks for writing this one up, I was planning on setting aside my Wednesday off for studying these games. I am worried that some of his more special and awesome builds are too prepared and specialized for practical use on the ladder. After reading your analysis and re-watching this game in particular I think this build is totally viable on the ladder, do you agree? I am worried about some fast hydra timings killing this attack, but I'm not familiar enough with what Zerg can have to answer this at the 9:00-9:30 mark after being pressured like this build entails. Maybe that's just me being scared because I'm garbage and fuck up those early gate expand attacks really often, lol.
What about the other builds' ladder viability though? I especially thought the voidray blink build was interesting and was gonna be the first one I tackled. I might look into the void ray stalker game too, it WAS quite interesting. I'd have to go over the details, but I think it was a metagame build though. If you try to get a fast 3rd with void rays and then don't get some kind of AoE, you can straight up die to a strong hydra/ling timing. My guess is that you could use this build if you scout double evo though, as it implies roach/hydra (or sometimes ling/infestor into ultras). As for this build, I think it's perfectly usable on ladder. It's a control build that allows you to control the way the zerg is moving around and reacting all game long. It's unlikely you would be against early hydras though. If you go gateway expand, zerg is kind of obligated to get earlier gas and a slightly later 3rd; if they still try to go for a really fast 3rd, they are in danger of losing it to an early gateway attack. Even if they were to dump all of their gas into lair to rush hydras, I don't think they could get both ling speed AND hydras in time for this attack. The early gateway pressure also forces lings, limiting drone production and creating a timing window where both players have about the same amount of economy (which is the basis for almost all 2-base protoss all-ins). That's my gut analysis. I'll see if I can do more research on the void ray/stalker build and maybe post some notes.
Sweet! I'll incorporate this immortal build into my ladder repertoire. When I think about it, I really do miss the soul train a little haha. I'll blog about my notes tomorrow if you haven't already by that time so we can compare notes (but you're way better at this game than me so I'll defer to you), looking forward to what we learn. I'm really hoping that these cool builds aren't just Sleep/DRG/Soulkey killers and I can use them on ladder.
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United States4883 Posts
On September 25 2013 02:18 Salivanth wrote:
Thanks!
I really like this build, the ability to pressure the Zerg with a gate expand, limit their ability to take a third quickly and drone up in the first 8 minutes, and STILL hit at almost the exact same time (though with a few less units) seems absolutely amazing. I'll have to give it a shot!
With some further study, I've found that you just HAVE to cut probes right around 7:00 when the robo finishes as there is just not enough minerals for zealot warpins, your first immortal, an additional pylon, AND probes. However, once you build the pylon and start the immortal, you can add on the extra 4-5 probes for full 2-base saturation.
Your proxy pylon for the warpgate attack can go down at about the same time as your gateways are finishing. The pylon will finish at almost the exact same time as your warp gates finish. You don't need an ultra close proxy pylon for this; Dear uses a very conservative placement in his game against DRG.
The key things here are:
- To make sure you have a wall up before 5:30 with a stalker and a sentry. This is generally the earliest time a speed build can finish.
- To make sure your initial warpins are on time so that the double zealot poke hits promptly at 7:10ish. If you sacrifice this timing for anything, you're forcing less of a response out of your opponent. The later you hit the 3rd, the more likely your opponent can defend it.
- To make sure your robo is constantly churning units with chronoboost. Since this entire strategy revolves around getting 3 immortals and pushing, any production gaps will result in a delay in your overall push.
- To make sure you're doing your best to repel overlords with your stalker and pick off lings at the watchtowers and near your 3rd. Keeping the zerg player in the dark is the strongest point of this strategy.
Hope this helps! I really like this strategy the more I play around with it. It's super solid and powerful and still allows you a lot of options and versatility. 
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Wow, thanks! This ought to help a lot.
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Italy12247 Posts
Post in sc2 strat or ill ban you next time!
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United States4883 Posts
I posted this like 3 weeks ago lol. Leave me alone!
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EPT
