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On January 24 2015 01:42 Asgorath wrote:http://ggtracker.com/matches/5752851What am I supposed to do against a proxy 2 Gate in ZvP? I sent my second Overlord on a path that spotted the Gateways at 2:25, where the second one was about half-way done. I went Pool first at 15 supply, and my Pool was also about half-way done. My Pool completes at 3:10, his first Zealot is already at my ramp with two more on the way. I took a Gas but looking back that was probably a mistake, just not sure how to defend against this with basically no units when it hits.
Taking gas is a risk since it will only be usefull later on and will limit your abilty to defend the first zealots, i personally dont take gas. When you scout its 2 gate stop droning you want to have as much larvae as possible when the pool finishes. Also make 2 spines (if he tries to transition you can cancel one). As soon as your spines finish take your first group of zerglings and couterattack, be carefull that he doesnt block the ramp. Keep making zerglings, with the second group you either defend you main or you take out his proxy in case he pulls his zealots back.
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Okay, is there any way at all to beat a cannon rush in your natural? They can plant the pylon in plain sight and I'll send 6 drones or whatever to go kill it but it's getting up and the cannons are going up every time and I lose 100% of the time. I don't think I've ever won a game where they've cannon rushed, just like how I almost never win vs T3 protoss or zerg. I swear... with the amount I watch of this game you'd think I know what to do but I'm so clueless.
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On January 24 2015 16:42 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Okay, is there any way at all to beat a cannon rush in your natural? They can plant the pylon in plain sight and I'll send 6 drones or whatever to go kill it but it's getting up and the cannons are going up every time and I lose 100% of the time. I don't think I've ever won a game where they've cannon rushed, just like how I almost never win vs T3 protoss or zerg. I swear... with the amount I watch of this game you'd think I know what to do but I'm so clueless.
4 drones/cannon, if he's really committing that may mean all of them. If you're going hatch-first you also have to block good cannon spots, etc. Another option is to not do anything and just take your 3rd (3hatch before pool), cancel the hatch, and kill the pylon later. Catz has a pretty good video on stopping cannons before they get up.
If you go pool-first there's lots of things you can do, like counterattack and things like that, but the threat of cannon rushing is what phased out hatch-first in the first place.
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if you go hatchfirst and you don't have two drones prepulled then protoss can guarantee a cannon going down if they know how to pylon wall on the map. typically you see korean zergs prepull a drone around 16 supply to patrol the front of the natural, then if the overlord scouts no forge the drone will go for 3hatch. if you are going hatch 16pool and he starts walling in a cannon you either have to rely on him fucking up, have a second drone to patrolblock the pylon wall, or just take the third base and use a queen/ling bust to clear the cannon
On January 23 2015 00:14 Veriol wrote:
Its more about the fact that its way easier for T/P to handle late game than it is for zerg.
With protoss deathball you just amove whilst turning on voids and then you spam feedback storm on everything
With terran mech you either sit whole game and mass ravens or literally amove with thor/helbat/banshee comps
As zerg to combat those you have to use combination of queens, vipers, infestors while having superior position to him and not getting your army stack together (corruptor/storm, roach/tank etc)
let's try to keep this attitude out of strategy threads. whining that something is too hard isn't a strategy and doesn't help anyone. i offrace toss and by no means do i find it easier in the lategame against a competent zerg with creep spread, spore walls, vipers and swarm hosts. all races have abusive tactics, you just have to abuse them better than the other guy.
if you feel lost in the late game its very likely you have a macro or control issue that's putting you behind or making you lose engagements. i've wrecked toss with superior control and been wrecked by toss with superior control in the same lategame stalemate situations.
infinite bank mech is annoying but blizzard is looking at fixing PDD which are the main problem so be happy 
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Widow mines. What's your tactic against them when the terran pushes and has 8-12 widow mines in their composition? I've watched Pig talk about it, and he's said that all you need vs WMs is just a lot of "stuff", and to attack from different angles. I've tried this by somehow my lings ALWAYS re-clump and then my army is decimated. I'm mid diamond at the current time. ZvT is my worst MU I have like a really really bad 19% win rate vs them.
EDIT: I'm talking bio widow btw.
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On January 25 2015 03:14 GGuMake wrote:
Widow mines. What's your tactic against them when the terran pushes and has 8-12 widowbenchmark in their composition? I've watched Pig talk about it, and he's said that all you need vs WMs is just a lot of "stuff", and to attack from different angles. I've tried this by somehow my lings ALWAYS re-clump and then my army is decimated. I'm mid diamond at the current time. ZvT is my worst MU I have like a really really bad 19% win rate vs them.
EDIT: I'm talking bio widow btw.
manually boxing and spreading the lingbane at the front of your army will drag some fire into the opponents army and away from the rest of your guys. Usually if you have overwhwlming numbers and you have some banes up close to the front you can blow up a lot of mines befoee they fire. So make sure you have those speed overseers up too.
As for having enough stuff, cos its so damned important to be able to clear these armies up quickly and keep spreading creep. Here are some benchmarks for a standard three base build: 8:00 50 drones, 10:00 66 drones, 5 hatch, 4-base.
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On January 21 2015 06:33 hypnotoad.410 wrote:
there is this popular build were protoss plays 1 offgate and a forge.
i´m normaly opening 15 pool 15 hatch.
what do i need to do to defend that?
i can´t really defend my natural, do i need to do that?
what i do most often is cancle the hatch, build to gas and go for nydus all in.
but that ain´t working very good, and i feel like i´m defending the initial attack very wrong.
do you guys got some advice or replays?
I think you mean a zealot + cannon rush? Normally you just need to pump lings reactively and pull plenty of drones to hold your natural. Because they're on 1 base with no tech you can lose a few drones and still be ahead no problem.
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On January 18 2015 04:24 Running wrote:
Gateway expand blink stalker all in, 7gates off 2gas, hits at 8min. Seems like getting 3 gas is too much, and I need to do it off two? Are spines necessary? how many? Also seems like i can't get enough lings to really do much and its better to spend larva on roaches, and add lings in as my gas gets low. Im diamond and the guy said he has beaten top 25 gms with the build.
They shouldn't be able to warpin off full 7 gates + blink at 8:00 from a gate opener I feel... maybe 8:15 absolute earliest?. I feel like 8:30 would be more standard. Plz post rep though and confirm when it hits and with how much.
as for dealing with it if you scout it coming pure unit production with a mix of roach ling is great. If you Scout it early enough you can just mass ling and overwhelm it immediately - but its a bit of a gamble.
Generally scouting will be denied so you have to rely on your standard rule of gate opener should take natural gases by 7:30, if not big allin coming! Mass units! Early creepspread makes a huge difference and I would generally agree that you only want to add lings once you have a good roach count up so zealots are not as useful. If u have no creep at all id probably go the mass ling gamble option because time warp + blink + stalker movespeed will rekt slow roaches off creep.
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On January 10 2015 19:10 A_Scarecrow wrote:
would like some help with zvp +2 blink stalker aggression while taking a third. i tried out for wcs sea qualies versed a very good terran and lost then versed a toss that wasnt other great but decent. he did a +2 blink stalker attack on deadwing while harrassing with a warp prism and took a 3rd.
i couldnt pressure the third without running into his army and defending warp prism. i managed to defend both with ling roach but he recalled blink stalker force and killed half my main drones. what comp should i go for against blink into robo collossi timing. i like ling hydra into muta but i couldnt get enough hydras to hold it off without hurting my economy.
It's important to remember to keep scouting with overseers/lings to see how much toss commits. Sometimes they will not probe their 3rd at all and commit huge off 8 gates. Sometimes they will fully saturate but skip the robo and go 11 gate YOLO MC style. Make sure you're watching gate count or easier, 3rd saturation to know. Usually roach-hydra or hydra ling are great here. Mass a good number of units off 3-base saturation before droning 4th and pushing your tech. Viper timing and then blord timing is a great followup
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I'm completely stuck, I've been stuck in Gold league for what feels like an eternity and I feel like there's ton of things that I should learn how to do, but I don't even know where to begin. My ZvP and ZvT are fairly even, I certainly have things to learn, but my ZvZ is horrendous. Where do I start to look to start to make notable progress? I know I should focus on progression of my play over league, but I'm just using that as a barometer to explain where I'm at.
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Edit: accidental double post- curse phones
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On January 25 2015 08:08 divin1ty wrote:
I'm completely stuck, I've been stuck in Gold league for what feels like an eternity and I feel like there's ton of things that I should learn how to do, but I don't even know where to begin. My ZvP and ZvT are fairly even, I certainly have things to learn, but my ZvZ is horrendous. Where do I start to look to start to make notable progress? I know I should focus on progression of my play over league, but I'm just using that as a barometer to explain where I'm at.
At your level you want to get good at consistently injecting and not getting supply blocked and that'll help loads.
I imagine at gold level ZvZ muta ling will dominate other players since they won't be able to execute roach timings well.
muta build below.
+ Show Spoiler +Try this as a muta build. 15 hatch/pool, choose either, 15 gas after the hatch. When your pool is finished, make 1 pair of lings and send into their base, check both mineral lines and gas timings. If they're droning you're good, if there's lack of drones, make lings.
Get speed at 100 gas, get baneling nest at next 50 gas. Put a spine crawler down if you think there's going to be heavy ling pressure. Keep drones on gas. make a couple of lings just incase you need to morph into banes. if not, at your next 100 gas, lair. At 44 supply take all the remaining gases and fully saturate. Remember to make your spire asap. When you're fully saturated make lings to deny his third and pressure him. Take your third and bob's your uncle. Get the 6 gases fast as possible, cos if he goes muta as well you'll need the gas. Also carapace > attack on muta vs muta
If he tries to attack you with roaches before you have loads of mutas/lings out, drop some spines. If he later tries to attack with small force of roach hydra infestor banelings spread out with lings and mutas will wreck him especially if you explode on hydras.
keep trying to deny him expansions and such.
Remember if you've got 20+ mutas keep harassing with them, small pickings like extractors or overlords are better than no pickings just cos you can't get on his mineral line.
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On January 25 2015 11:22 Hularuns wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2015 08:08 divin1ty wrote:
I'm completely stuck, I've been stuck in Gold league for what feels like an eternity and I feel like there's ton of things that I should learn how to do, but I don't even know where to begin. My ZvP and ZvT are fairly even, I certainly have things to learn, but my ZvZ is horrendous. Where do I start to look to start to make notable progress? I know I should focus on progression of my play over league, but I'm just using that as a barometer to explain where I'm at. At your level you want to get good at consistently injecting and not getting supply blocked and that'll help loads. I imagine at gold level ZvZ muta ling will dominate other players since they won't be able to execute roach timings well. muta build below. + Show Spoiler +Try this as a muta build. 15 hatch/pool, choose either, 15 gas after the hatch. When your pool is finished, make 1 pair of lings and send into their base, check both mineral lines and gas timings. If they're droning you're good, if there's lack of drones, make lings.
Get speed at 100 gas, get baneling nest at next 50 gas. Put a spine crawler down if you think there's going to be heavy ling pressure. Keep drones on gas. make a couple of lings just incase you need to morph into banes. if not, at your next 100 gas, lair. At 44 supply take all the remaining gases and fully saturate. Remember to make your spire asap. When you're fully saturated make lings to deny his third and pressure him. Take your third and bob's your uncle. Get the 6 gases fast as possible, cos if he goes muta as well you'll need the gas. Also carapace > attack on muta vs muta
If he tries to attack you with roaches before you have loads of mutas/lings out, drop some spines. If he later tries to attack with small force of roach hydra infestor banelings spread out with lings and mutas will wreck him especially if you explode on hydras.
keep trying to deny him expansions and such. Remember if you've got 20+ mutas keep harassing with them, small pickings like extractors or overlords are better than no pickings just cos you can't get on his mineral line.
Not sure mutas in ZvZ is the esiest option in gold. I am probably around gold, and I feel that it is a lot easier to be on the roach-hydra-spore side than on the muta-ling side. You are just so fragile with mutas... Lose track of them once and they tend to suicide themselves into things. :/ I feel it is a lot more stable then to turtle a bit with spores until you have enough hydras to beat his mutas in a fight (and enough spores to not die to base-trade), and then a-move your hydra-roach for the win. In general I find that people don't have enough roaches or banes to defend.
Ofc not saying that one is better than the other, just that I find the roach-hydra side to be easier to control than the muta-ling side at my level.
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On January 25 2015 15:25 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2015 11:22 Hularuns wrote:On January 25 2015 08:08 divin1ty wrote:
I'm completely stuck, I've been stuck in Gold league for what feels like an eternity and I feel like there's ton of things that I should learn how to do, but I don't even know where to begin. My ZvP and ZvT are fairly even, I certainly have things to learn, but my ZvZ is horrendous. Where do I start to look to start to make notable progress? I know I should focus on progression of my play over league, but I'm just using that as a barometer to explain where I'm at. At your level you want to get good at consistently injecting and not getting supply blocked and that'll help loads. I imagine at gold level ZvZ muta ling will dominate other players since they won't be able to execute roach timings well. muta build below. + Show Spoiler +Try this as a muta build. 15 hatch/pool, choose either, 15 gas after the hatch. When your pool is finished, make 1 pair of lings and send into their base, check both mineral lines and gas timings. If they're droning you're good, if there's lack of drones, make lings.
Get speed at 100 gas, get baneling nest at next 50 gas. Put a spine crawler down if you think there's going to be heavy ling pressure. Keep drones on gas. make a couple of lings just incase you need to morph into banes. if not, at your next 100 gas, lair. At 44 supply take all the remaining gases and fully saturate. Remember to make your spire asap. When you're fully saturated make lings to deny his third and pressure him. Take your third and bob's your uncle. Get the 6 gases fast as possible, cos if he goes muta as well you'll need the gas. Also carapace > attack on muta vs muta
If he tries to attack you with roaches before you have loads of mutas/lings out, drop some spines. If he later tries to attack with small force of roach hydra infestor banelings spread out with lings and mutas will wreck him especially if you explode on hydras.
keep trying to deny him expansions and such. Remember if you've got 20+ mutas keep harassing with them, small pickings like extractors or overlords are better than no pickings just cos you can't get on his mineral line. Not sure mutas in ZvZ is the esiest option in gold. I am probably around gold, and I feel that it is a lot easier to be on the roach-hydra-spore side than on the muta-ling side. You are just so fragile with mutas... Lose track of them once and they tend to suicide themselves into things. :/ I feel it is a lot more stable then to turtle a bit with spores until you have enough hydras to beat his mutas in a fight (and enough spores to not die to base-trade), and then a-move your hydra-roach for the win. In general I find that people don't have enough roaches or banes to defend. Ofc not saying that one is better than the other, just that I find the roach-hydra side to be easier to control than the muta-ling side at my level.
So you're a silver.
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Someone should write a great book of ZvZ bullshit... That matchup is probably as bad as a Protoss matchup.
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On January 26 2015 02:35 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2015 15:25 Cascade wrote:On January 25 2015 11:22 Hularuns wrote:On January 25 2015 08:08 divin1ty wrote:
I'm completely stuck, I've been stuck in Gold league for what feels like an eternity and I feel like there's ton of things that I should learn how to do, but I don't even know where to begin. My ZvP and ZvT are fairly even, I certainly have things to learn, but my ZvZ is horrendous. Where do I start to look to start to make notable progress? I know I should focus on progression of my play over league, but I'm just using that as a barometer to explain where I'm at. At your level you want to get good at consistently injecting and not getting supply blocked and that'll help loads. I imagine at gold level ZvZ muta ling will dominate other players since they won't be able to execute roach timings well. muta build below. + Show Spoiler +Try this as a muta build. 15 hatch/pool, choose either, 15 gas after the hatch. When your pool is finished, make 1 pair of lings and send into their base, check both mineral lines and gas timings. If they're droning you're good, if there's lack of drones, make lings.
Get speed at 100 gas, get baneling nest at next 50 gas. Put a spine crawler down if you think there's going to be heavy ling pressure. Keep drones on gas. make a couple of lings just incase you need to morph into banes. if not, at your next 100 gas, lair. At 44 supply take all the remaining gases and fully saturate. Remember to make your spire asap. When you're fully saturated make lings to deny his third and pressure him. Take your third and bob's your uncle. Get the 6 gases fast as possible, cos if he goes muta as well you'll need the gas. Also carapace > attack on muta vs muta
If he tries to attack you with roaches before you have loads of mutas/lings out, drop some spines. If he later tries to attack with small force of roach hydra infestor banelings spread out with lings and mutas will wreck him especially if you explode on hydras.
keep trying to deny him expansions and such. Remember if you've got 20+ mutas keep harassing with them, small pickings like extractors or overlords are better than no pickings just cos you can't get on his mineral line. Not sure mutas in ZvZ is the esiest option in gold. I am probably around gold, and I feel that it is a lot easier to be on the roach-hydra-spore side than on the muta-ling side. You are just so fragile with mutas... Lose track of them once and they tend to suicide themselves into things. :/ I feel it is a lot more stable then to turtle a bit with spores until you have enough hydras to beat his mutas in a fight (and enough spores to not die to base-trade), and then a-move your hydra-roach for the win. In general I find that people don't have enough roaches or banes to defend. Ofc not saying that one is better than the other, just that I find the roach-hydra side to be easier to control than the muta-ling side at my level. So you're a silver. frequently people offrace or arent too active with a certain race and just dont know what their exact level is. not sure what the point of your sick burn is, but congrats? gg wp?
On January 26 2015 03:40 Big J wrote:
Someone should write a great book of ZvZ bullshit... That matchup is probably as bad as a Protoss matchup.
there's not that much zvz bullshit because it's kinda hard to hide anything, if you know the hatch timing and gas timing and have ovies spread you usually have all the information you need and if you don't know you just play safe. the book of zvz bullshit would basically be like "1. pool lings and yolo 2. catz 1base muta"
although 1base muta is quite fun on big maps
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On January 26 2015 09:48 brickrd wrote:
the book of zvz bullshit would basically be like "1. pool lings
That's like simplyfying the great book of protoss bullshit to build lots of gateways though.
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In ZvT when going for a 2-2 roach hydra 13 minutes timing i end up dying to the second/third wage of mass MMM off 2 base.
If i get the b nest when i see it it's too late as i wont have ling speed nor bane speed, should i throw down a nest no matter what or can i make some adjustments last minute?
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If you go roach/hydra, you never make a baneling nest. If it looks like you need banelings, you probably simply don't have enough roaches (either through overdroning or insufficient macro).
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EPT
