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On December 17 2014 03:27 Lobotomist wrote:
Are muta openers viable in zvz? Judging by the last couple pages of conversation I'd say yes, but i haven't seen one at anything resembling a high level for a long time. Anyone got a good high level muta zvz game video?
I only loose against muta if i screw up my build or get surprised, which means i screwed up on scouting. Otherwise, roaches beat mutas IMO.
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On December 19 2014 01:41 Defenestrator wrote:
I just started laddering again in S4 after a long break, so I'm not too familiar with the newer maps. Are there any overall differences in the newer maps? From a glance, they seem a lot larger (every map seems like Tal'darim Altar-sized), and it looks easier to secure 3rd/4th/5th bases (usually no rocks separating nat and 3rd).
They are actually old maps and I would say, the third ist quite hard to hold on most maps. But I'm only Plat ;-)
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On December 19 2014 23:02 Wildbuddha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2014 01:41 Defenestrator wrote:
I just started laddering again in S4 after a long break, so I'm not too familiar with the newer maps. Are there any overall differences in the newer maps? From a glance, they seem a lot larger (every map seems like Tal'darim Altar-sized), and it looks easier to secure 3rd/4th/5th bases (usually no rocks separating nat and 3rd). They are actually old maps and I would say, the third ist quite hard to hold on most maps. But I'm only Plat ;-)
Dreampool was reverted. We're back to S3 maps.
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I just got HotS, the last time I played SC2 was way back in WoL, and was wondering if anyone could get me caught up on the current meta, in terms of the important differences in each matchup? Sorry, this is a really generalized question, but if anyone can help, it would be appreciated!
Thanks!
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On December 19 2014 22:59 Wildbuddha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2014 03:27 Lobotomist wrote:
Are muta openers viable in zvz? Judging by the last couple pages of conversation I'd say yes, but i haven't seen one at anything resembling a high level for a long time. Anyone got a good high level muta zvz game video? I only loose against muta if i screw up my build or get surprised, which means i screwed up on scouting. Otherwise, roaches beat mutas IMO.
mutas are an extremely control-heavy unit. control can win you games all the way up to GM/foreigner pro level. but you do absolutely have to have strong control and know the proper steps to defend the roach counterpush that will come every single game if you're scouted on time.
i'd say it's somewhat similar to templar or archon openers in pvt these days - possible, but technical and not a relaxed macro style for beginners or casual players, though in mid levels you can do pretty well just based on the regular mistakes your opponent will make.
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On December 20 2014 11:44 XXhkXX wrote:
I just got HotS, the last time I played SC2 was way back in WoL, and was wondering if anyone could get me caught up on the current meta, in terms of the important differences in each matchup? Sorry, this is a really generalized question, but if anyone can help, it would be appreciated!
Thanks!
I would strongly suggest watching any featured stream. You will get a great feel of the match ups. However, Ill get you a brief explanation.
Zvt: Similar to WOL. You will mostly see: Reaper hellion, into bio timing/third, into 2 2 rine, murader, medvac, mine, parade push off 3 base. You will see some mech games too ofc.
Zvz: Ling bane or gasless into muta or roach vs roach.
zvp: Anything can happen really. Normally gate core expand, 4 gate timing, into third/immortal all in/ air
You will still see FFE into whatever all in. And finally, you will see some good protoss players, gate core expand into fast third
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My question: How viable is gasless ZvZ in upper leagues on the current map pool?
I'm in Plat, so I am going to lay out my experience with gasless since the map pool change to better define my question.
From my experience against Plat players gasless is pretty solid. So long as I scout properly, I find all-ins relatively easy to hold, and I find that this style allows for the most consistent results. The most obvious complaint about gasless that I hear is that if the other player goes gas they get easy map control and get a quick third, negating my economic advantage. When I see this on ladder I get a quick lair and roach speed plus +1/+1, and I can easily crush my opponents third while taking my own. I then almost always see the other player go Muta, but by that time I have my upgrades plus hydras, and I can just contain and I beat his comp pretty badly. At this point I have a better economy and an upgrade advantage. My only fear is that this will not be viable as I continue to improve, and if that is the case I want to set myself up for success and work on something else. So, how viable is gasless in ZvZ in upper leagues on the current map pool?
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I've been following Blade's guide on ZvT (the second overview) where you open up roaches (rather than banes) into a 3rd with fast upgrades, etc. Even though the guide was made a while ago, it still seems to apply and work well. So on to my question;
The guide says to get your roach warren around 7:15 (the only time you can really afford it) that means with the 55 second build time of the warren, on top of the 27 second build time of the roaches, this means the earliest the roaches will pop out is at 8:37, more likely around 8:50 to get them into a defensive stance. This mean's my roaches are usually a bit late to defend against the 8:00 hellbat/reaper push. Does anyone know what I could do to remedy this? or have links to any other macro builds that open roaches in ZvT?
I really dislike defending this push without the roach warren since it seem's kind of wonky.
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On December 22 2014 03:24 TenmaSC2 wrote:
My question: How viable is gasless ZvZ in upper leagues on the current map pool?
I'm in Plat, so I am going to lay out my experience with gasless since the map pool change to better define my question.
From my experience against Plat players gasless is pretty solid. So long as I scout properly, I find all-ins relatively easy to hold, and I find that this style allows for the most consistent results. The most obvious complaint about gasless that I hear is that if the other player goes gas they get easy map control and get a quick third, negating my economic advantage. When I see this on ladder I get a quick lair and roach speed plus +1/+1, and I can easily crush my opponents third while taking my own. I then almost always see the other player go Muta, but by that time I have my upgrades plus hydras, and I can just contain and I beat his comp pretty badly. At this point I have a better economy and an upgrade advantage. My only fear is that this will not be viable as I continue to improve, and if that is the case I want to set myself up for success and work on something else. So, how viable is gasless in ZvZ in upper leagues on the current map pool?
Yes it is viable. I use it in gm league all the time. However, really good zergs can cut a lot of corners when they scout gasless. So its all about adding in a few all ins when you see SUPER fast thirds against abusers.
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On December 22 2014 13:30 sgtjimmy wrote:
I've been following Blade's guide on ZvT (the second overview) where you open up roaches (rather than banes) into a 3rd with fast upgrades, etc. Even though the guide was made a while ago, it still seems to apply and work well. So on to my question;
The guide says to get your roach warren around 7:15 (the only time you can really afford it) that means with the 55 second build time of the warren, on top of the 27 second build time of the roaches, this means the earliest the roaches will pop out is at 8:37, more likely around 8:50 to get them into a defensive stance. This mean's my roaches are usually a bit late to defend against the 8:00 hellbat/reaper push. Does anyone know what I could do to remedy this? or have links to any other macro builds that open roaches in ZvT?
I really dislike defending this push without the roach warren since it seem's kind of wonky.
Yes I have a build for you. It is a blend of violets and hyuns standard zvt build, with a few alterations from me.
15H
15P
17ov
2 pairs of lings
2 queens
25ov
28 2 more queens
34ov
42 (should be 5:30) Rw + 2 gas (at nat), and ov
52 Ov, 2 more gas, 2 evos (finish wall)
At this time, you should finish the wall with queen's 3 and 4. DONT make more then one set of creep tumor from each queen, unless you are playing against cc first, or rax into cc. You need your walling off queens to bank enough energy for transfuse, vs any terran that tries to focus down a queen with their 2 reaper + 6 helions. Your queens will buy you JUST enough time for your first roaches to pop out. Which, then, you can chase them away, and take map control.
55 ov
After your roaches pop, you have a few options. You can go lair, 1 1 upgrades for a timing. You can take a third, get 1 1 evo upgrades and ling speed for more standard play, You can also just skip the upgrades all together, make roaches, ling speed, and bane nest for a all in.
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On December 04 2014 03:06 Immersion_ wrote:
Hi,
Quick one about dealing with drops/multi pronged harass as Zerg, whenever I order a unit to be produced I hotkey it at that point, Roaches are 2 Infestors 3 for example, the whole army is generally 1. When you are facing drops in multiple locations this system really struggles. Are there any useful tips for dealing with this or is it just a case of syphoning off the right amount of your main force with mouse and good pre positioning where possible? If I then have to deal with a fight on the main front for example my hotkeys end up working against me as it calls the guys I sent back, back to the front.
Sorry if this is a bit late (i'm just catching up on the Dec posts in this thread), but I have my hotkeys mapped out a little different to allow more army control groups.
I have Q and ~ as harrass hotkeys and F3 and F4 as additional hotkeys, generally saved for scouting... all 4 of these hotkeys allows ease of setting up a couple "task force" groups to handle things like drop defense and other multi-pronged harrass.
To make up for the loss of camera location hotkeys, i have Mouse5, F5-F8 and Shift+F5-Shift+F8 as camera locations.
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Hello, I have problem in zvz when terran go for mech. I try to go for roach play and starve the terran out, it works in the mid game but when The terran turtles up i cant get through. Should I go for the hive tach or Is there a way to end the game Before the terran gets to that point?
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On December 23 2014 05:38 gmorf33 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2014 03:06 Immersion_ wrote:
Hi,
Quick one about dealing with drops/multi pronged harass as Zerg, whenever I order a unit to be produced I hotkey it at that point, Roaches are 2 Infestors 3 for example, the whole army is generally 1. When you are facing drops in multiple locations this system really struggles. Are there any useful tips for dealing with this or is it just a case of syphoning off the right amount of your main force with mouse and good pre positioning where possible? If I then have to deal with a fight on the main front for example my hotkeys end up working against me as it calls the guys I sent back, back to the front. Sorry if this is a bit late (i'm just catching up on the Dec posts in this thread), but I have my hotkeys mapped out a little different to allow more army control groups. I have Q and ~ as harrass hotkeys and F3 and F4 as additional hotkeys, generally saved for scouting... all 4 of these hotkeys allows ease of setting up a couple "task force" groups to handle things like drop defense and other multi-pronged harrass. To make up for the loss of camera location hotkeys, i have Mouse5, F5-F8 and Shift+F5-Shift+F8 as camera locations.
Sounds Complicated... haha, but to each their own ^_^
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On December 23 2014 23:10 Ezneralc wrote:
Hello, I have problem in zvz when terran go for mech. I try to go for roach play and starve the terran out, it works in the mid game but when The terran turtles up i cant get through. Should I go for the hive tach or Is there a way to end the game Before the terran gets to that point?
Its hard to give you any definite advice with out a replay. However, I will make the assumption that the terran is turtling off 3 base? This is after you take map control with roaches?
There are only two real ways to break a terran that does not put him self out there. However, you must do heavy damage, or the game is over. If you choose not to all in him, you need to wait for the terran to take a 4th base to attack him
Option one: Roach hydra max with 2 2 upgrades (hits between 13 - 14 min), or roach hydra viper timing, which is more effective, and more scary to deal with from the terran point of view.
Option two: Roach hydra swarm host timing, with drops and nydus. You need doom drop into the main with a force of roach hydra, at least 4-5 ov's worth of forces. Then you will nydus behind this forces, and bring in your force of swarm hosts. 10 should do.
The terran will understandably freak his shit, and bring nearly everything into the main. At this point. The rest of your forces will attack the terrain's third, and kill everthing.
Use the nydus in the terran's main to escape. You will need these forces at home because the terran is now all in.
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[QUOTE]On December 23 2014 23:29 EndOfLineTv wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 23 2014 23:10 Ezneralc wrote:
Its hard to give you any definite advice with out a replay. However, I will make the assumption that the terran is turtling off 3 base? This is after you take map control with roaches?
There are only two real ways to break a terran that does not put him self out there. However, you must do heavy damage, or the game is over. If you choose not to all in him, you need to wait for the terran to take a 4th base to attack him
Option one: Roach hydra max with 2 2 upgrades (hits between 13 - 14 min), or roach hydra viper timing, which is more effective, and more scary to deal with from the terran point of view.
Option two: Roach hydra swarm host timing, with drops and nydus. You need doom drop into the main with a force of roach hydra, at least 4-5 ov's worth of forces. Then you will nydus behind this forces, and bring in your force of swarm hosts. 10 should do.
The terran will understandably freak his shit, and bring nearly everything into the main. At this point. The rest of your forces will attack the terrain's third, and kill everthing.
Use the nydus in the terran's main to escape. You will need these forces at home because the terran is now all in.[/QUOTE]
Yeah i take map control and try to dealy his 3rd as long as i can but if i dont succeeded with that the terran takes a 3rd and roll over me. In wich time frame should the doom drop arive? And if i go roach hydra viper and do some damage but dont end the game what is the transition out of that? Thanks for the tips will test them 
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Why do high level players not make use an early Overlord Speed upgrade (excl. ZvZ)? Been watching replays from IEM San Jose. Even pro Zergs lose to that first hellbat push or 5 gate zealots/sentries. Most of the games I lost were largely due to not knowing what was coming in the early game. Anyway, I've seen the value in it as it helped me manage my larva better. I'm in plat #13 and I always go 15 pool, hatch then extractor for all my non-mirror match ups and then get Overlord speed as soon as the natural finishes. I also always get ling speed with my next 100gas. Once ovy speed upgrade is done, I keep scouting the enemy with my two overlords. I get about 4 scouts max before they are red/orange. I then make them overseers for full health again and better speed. Or force a terran to make a viking. I found knowing what's happening has given me much better success over working around timings. In theory, what do you really lose with getting 100/100 Ovy Speed asap? I've seen 3hatch before pool lose to a gateway opening. Thus, even the greediest Zerg opening can lose to lack of knowledge. As I said, I found it benefited my game. One Terran responded... "I didn't know what to do this game". One Protoss game, the guy may have changed his mind from going immortal to collosi all-in and I could respond accordingly. It appears that with the enemy knowing that you know what they are doing can throw them off and buy you so much time.
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On December 24 2014 06:05 ThePuritan wrote:
Why do high level players not make use an early Overlord Speed upgrade (excl. ZvZ)? Been watching replays from IEM San Jose. Even pro Zergs lose to that first hellbat push or 5 gate zealots/sentries. Most of the games I lost were largely due to not knowing what was coming in the early game. Anyway, I've seen the value in it as it helped me manage my larva better. I'm in plat #13 and I always go 15 pool, hatch then extractor for all my non-mirror match ups and then get Overlord speed as soon as the natural finishes. I also always get ling speed with my next 100gas. Once ovy speed upgrade is done, I keep scouting the enemy with my two overlords. I get about 4 scouts max before they are red/orange. I then make them overseers for full health again and better speed. Or force a terran to make a viking. I found knowing what's happening has given me much better success over working around timings. In theory, what do you really lose with getting 100/100 Ovy Speed asap? I've seen 3hatch before pool lose to a gateway opening. Thus, even the greediest Zerg opening can lose to lack of knowledge. As I said, I found it benefited my game. One Terran responded... "I didn't know what to do this game". One Protoss game, the guy may have changed his mind from going immortal to collosi all-in and I could respond accordingly. It appears that with the enemy knowing that you know what they are doing can throw them off and buy you so much time.
mostly because pros can scout a lot without overlord speed which is actually expense you don't want
However, there have been cases of early OL speed:
-watch Jaedong vs Bomber from Blizzcon, Jaedong uses OL speed to scout despite reactor'd marines and gets to see BFH
-effOrt had that 1 build that blocked hellbat allins
-also other players doing that (on top of my head, Hyun vs Taeja from WCS AM ro16 on MGR), the upgrade is actually not that uncommon in pro ZvTs (early game I mean)
in very early HotS Leenock used OL speed in ZvP to scout for protoss all-ins but he doesn't do it anymore
someone more oriented in the topic could probably give a more insightful answer
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thanks for that. yeah I watched the vod of JD vs Bomber... epic scout... and that's when I realized I needed this upgrade for my own play style. I'm very reactionary... I don't like blind cheese Zerg openings. Well, I don't like playing Zerg blind anyway. Sometimes pros can't scout anything because of the map. They put these strategies right at the back so that an Overlord with normal speed won't get there even with a single marine/stalker/sentry on it. Or protoss will proxy tech. Perhaps Overlord speed is a map related upgrade? Maybe a pros/cons post can help?
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On December 23 2014 23:20 EndOfLineTv wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2014 05:38 gmorf33 wrote:On December 04 2014 03:06 Immersion_ wrote:
Hi,
Quick one about dealing with drops/multi pronged harass as Zerg, whenever I order a unit to be produced I hotkey it at that point, Roaches are 2 Infestors 3 for example, the whole army is generally 1. When you are facing drops in multiple locations this system really struggles. Are there any useful tips for dealing with this or is it just a case of syphoning off the right amount of your main force with mouse and good pre positioning where possible? If I then have to deal with a fight on the main front for example my hotkeys end up working against me as it calls the guys I sent back, back to the front. Sorry if this is a bit late (i'm just catching up on the Dec posts in this thread), but I have my hotkeys mapped out a little different to allow more army control groups. I have Q and ~ as harrass hotkeys and F3 and F4 as additional hotkeys, generally saved for scouting... all 4 of these hotkeys allows ease of setting up a couple "task force" groups to handle things like drop defense and other multi-pronged harrass. To make up for the loss of camera location hotkeys, i have Mouse5, F5-F8 and Shift+F5-Shift+F8 as camera locations. Sounds Complicated... haha, but to each their own ^_^
Yeah, it does sound a little complicated when written out like that.. Basically i try to have as many keys within easy access of the home row.. this probably comes from being an FPS person since i was young and needing to live around ESDF (i never adopted the WASD trend). I hate reaching for 7-0 and F9-F12 keys, so i rebind them to close keys. Q, ~, F3, and F4 are much easier to reach without looking/thinking than 7-0. For cam locations, Mouse5 and F5-F8 are more than i usually need and much easier to hit. If for some crazy reason i need the extra 4 camera keys, i just hold shift+F5-F8 instead of trying to reach for those far F9-F12 keys.
Seeing a picture would probably make a lot more sense. Here's a protoss version of the layout:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1nryrw3den1e49/Hotkeys - Protoss.jpg?dl=0
The main differences for zerg is 5 = inject queens, 6 = creep queen(s), and F3-F4 are control groups 7-8 instead of camera locations. Oh and Mouse5 is creep camera instead of pylon camera.
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EPT
