EPTThe HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 229
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BrutalPotato
6 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On December 25 2014 05:17 BrutalPotato wrote: In ZVZ, how do you decide if you should transition into roach/hydra or mutalisk? I always go roaches (much safer choice) unless you have ben forcing a lot of mass ling/bling play. Then I think, with the game getting a bit scrappier and in general more units leftover on both sides, you can have enough breathing space to not die to any 2-base roach timing/bane all-in and open mutas. | ||
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theunabletable
54 Posts
Echoing what Ej said, in my experience, mutas are primarily fine in those kind of scrappy situations with heavy ling play where you manage to deny a third base. But even then, I'm not sure you can reasonably play reactive, deny a third base, and decide to go mutas without a roach warren; I'd imagine that you'd have to plan to kill an early third base and go quickly up to mutas beforehand. ** I'd been having a little bit of trouble in ZvT lately. I sorta fixed my personal ZvZ problem (oddly enough, playing on the dreampool gave me a bunch of ling/baneling practice that's bumped up my vZ winrate, even after dreampool ended, to like 65%, since I used to play mostly gasless,) but terran was just giving me a lot of difficulty. I'd feel like I was trading well, macroing well, spreading creep, and then eventually he's able to push creep back later in the game (in the mid-late game,) and I'm never able to get a killing blow, so he just kills me with lategame 3/3. Then I was watching proleague from the other day and I saw Dark do this Zergling/baneling/roach/corruptor style, and it seemed interesting and strong, able to trade really efficiently, and go up to lategame compositions nicely. Since then, I've played maybe... 4-5 preliminary games with it which have all gone really well. Something I didn't expect but is nice, it seems to be fine against mech, too (it feels like I can get up to vipers quickly), which is nice because I don't have to worry about scouting whether it's specifically mech or bio, I can do it either way so no getting caught off guard. Do you guys have any experience with this, any particular tips? The main thing that's hit which don't seem super simple to deal with have been heavy banshee pressure (like two quick ones). Getting a lot of queens feels counter productive because so many minerals are going to drones and then roaches, and making blind spores is kinda icky. I might just be bad at scouting banshees in general, which could be it. What're you guys' thoughts on roach/ling/baneling/corruptor ZvT? | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On December 25 2014 12:29 theunabletable wrote: I'd been having a little bit of trouble in ZvT lately. I sorta fixed my personal ZvZ problem (oddly enough, playing on the dreampool gave me a bunch of ling/baneling practice that's bumped up my vZ winrate, even after dreampool ended, to like 65%, since I used to play mostly gasless,) but terran was just giving me a lot of difficulty. I'd feel like I was trading well, macroing well, spreading creep, and then eventually he's able to push creep back later in the game (in the mid-late game,) and I'm never able to get a killing blow, so he just kills me with lategame 3/3. Then I was watching proleague from the other day and I saw Dark do this Zergling/baneling/roach/corruptor style, and it seemed interesting and strong, able to trade really efficiently, and go up to lategame compositions nicely. Since then, I've played maybe... 4-5 preliminary games with it which have all gone really well. Something I didn't expect but is nice, it seems to be fine against mech, too (it feels like I can get up to vipers quickly), which is nice because I don't have to worry about scouting whether it's specifically mech or bio, I can do it either way so no getting caught off guard. Do you guys have any experience with this, any particular tips? The main thing that's hit which don't seem super simple to deal with have been heavy banshee pressure (like two quick ones). Getting a lot of queens feels counter productive because so many minerals are going to drones and then roaches, and making blind spores is kinda icky. I might just be bad at scouting banshees in general, which could be it. What're you guys' thoughts on roach/ling/baneling/corruptor ZvT? I played around with it yesterday. I feel like it's MUCH easier to defend any kind of pressure, you rarely have to replenish corruptors (and if you have to, they have already killed twice their cost in medivacs), you have tons of larva to spend on roaches and lings and that force in general is much more durable and less likely to get owned by random mine hits. Also you have much easier time vs hellbats obviously because of the roach opening. One thing that I noticed being significantly harder is putting pressure on the terran himself. Corruptors are really slow and even though you can still defend drops, you need to split around ling packs etc.. Also roaches are not very supply efficient so I guess you have to try and take a lot of direct engagements to trade army? Either way it does trade really well. All in all, I've always had trouble playing ling/bane/muta defensively and I think ling/roach/bane/corruptor is simply easier and less taxing on mechanics. | ||
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velvex
Germany226 Posts
On December 24 2014 06:31 ThePuritan wrote: thanks for that. yeah I watched the vod of JD vs Bomber... epic scout... and that's when I realized I needed this upgrade for my own play style. I'm very reactionary... I don't like blind cheese Zerg openings. Well, I don't like playing Zerg blind anyway. Sometimes pros can't scout anything because of the map. They put these strategies right at the back so that an Overlord with normal speed won't get there even with a single marine/stalker/sentry on it. Or protoss will proxy tech. Perhaps Overlord speed is a map related upgrade? Maybe a pros/cons post can help? To be frank, overlord speed at 4:30 is madness. Going for it that early will set you back too much in either defence or economy, or both. At a later, more reasonable time (5:30–6:00), it's viable, but still nonstandard. No high-level tournament player would get overlord speed every game because their opponents would react and play greedy all the time, giving them a consistent advantage. And even in random ladder games, you still have the (cheaper) option of making a baneling nest around 6:30–7:00 if you don't see a third CC, which is also pretty safe. If you get overlord speed and want to compare it to not getting it, it comes down to three different cases:
So everything depends on how often each of these cases happen and on how much you're worse or better off, respectively. Most high-level players who make this consideration decide against getting overlord speed very often. | ||
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BrutalPotato
6 Posts
How do you play roach/hydra vs. muta/ling/bane? | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On December 26 2014 17:38 BrutalPotato wrote: So I just had a couple of guys tell me to its ok to transition to roach hydra in ZvZ almost 100% of the time. Most of the time when I go roach hydra and the other guy goes mutas I get KILLED though. I usually get stuck at my base because I don't have enough hydras to fight off the mutas. Then by the time I have enough hydras, the other guy has a ton of speed banes which kill all my hydras. How do you play roach/hydra vs. muta/ling/bane? need to hit a roach timing before his mutas are out, then start mass queen when you confirm it's mutas before transitioning to hydras/infestors | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 26 2014 17:38 BrutalPotato wrote: So I just had a couple of guys tell me to its ok to transition to roach hydra in ZvZ almost 100% of the time. Most of the time when I go roach hydra and the other guy goes mutas I get KILLED though. I usually get stuck at my base because I don't have enough hydras to fight off the mutas. Then by the time I have enough hydras, the other guy has a ton of speed banes which kill all my hydras. How do you play roach/hydra vs. muta/ling/bane? Mutalisks are far easier to play. If you aren't diamond or above there's no shame in defaulting into mutas if you don't mind getting stuck in mass mutalisks battles. It's just much stronger if you don't have the mechanics and timings for roach play fleshed out yet. If you want to play roaches, there are a few ways to do so: roach timing just before mutas is good as Ej mentions if you already have a 3rd base and are spored up when the mutas arrive (which requires good scouting) you can go roach/infestor (about 8infestors) then transition into hydralisks max on roach/hydra and attack. (this requires him to stay high on mutalisks. if he plays less mutas, he is probably going ultras, in which case you should attack earlier, around 150-160supply) | ||
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Alchemik
Poland7124 Posts
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On December 27 2014 07:43 Alchemik wrote: since Protoss bullshit is getting more popular on ladder (I wonder why, Sated) and I also suck in the late-game, I ask for the help here - what are your favorite all-ins vs Protoss? there aren't much allins u can do. you can "allin" but you kind of need to hope that protoss messes up their forcefields which isn't quite reliable. You can do gimmicky stuff to win though such as 2 base swarmhost nydus. Usually protoss scouts it but they have no idea how to react and lose anyway. And there is also the hatch -> pool - > gas into fake third at 5:30-ish. Let the Protoss scout it then kill the probe with your first 2 speedlings and go bane bust. Upon scouting the third, they will usually go greedy and skip sentries and extra cannons. gl | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 27 2014 07:43 Alchemik wrote: since Protoss bullshit is getting more popular on ladder (I wonder why, Sated) and I also suck in the late-game, I ask for the help here - what are your favorite all-ins vs Protoss? 9Overlord 14pool scout at 14 with a drone While your pool is building pull between 6-9drones and kill the Protoss base which your drone should have found somewhere around the mineral line of the closest base to your starting position, in other matchups referred to as "your natural expansion". (while in PvZ it is really the average Protoss players natural expansion location). Once the pool finishes, add in your second combat unit, the zergling, as appropriate, since the Protoss base will usually be heavily defended with multiple canons. If you fail you're usually dead but very often the advantage you get from that attack is big enough to make him tab out immediately. Appendix: - In some situations, the protoss natural base will be found in some other location close to your spawning area and rely on the slightly more mobile zealot defense, compared to the canon defense. In those situation pulling your drones to combat should be avoided. Instead, starting a spine crawler and a gas to tech to roaches can be a very good strategy. Even though it may look like the Protoss player is the aggressor in this scenario, it is really you who is allinning him by shamelessly spawning in close proximity to his favorite gateway base location. - There have been rumors about Protoss players building their bases far away from your spawning position and in close proximity to their own spawning position. These rumors are wrong! The Protoss player's mindset doesn't allow for expanding in what Terrans and Zergs would call "their natural expansion". It is a clever propaganda trick used by forum warriors trying to make you think your allin cannot work due to rush distance to those (imaginary) "fast expand builds". | ||
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MoosyDoosy
United States4519 Posts
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On December 27 2014 07:43 Alchemik wrote: since Protoss bullshit is getting more popular on ladder (I wonder why, Sated) and I also suck in the late-game, I ask for the help here - what are your favorite all-ins vs Protoss? The scariest all in for protoss to deal with is the "roach Max" build off 3 bases There are a ton of ways to do it You want to max out with roaches at 11:00 - 12:00 min (its a big gap depending on your macro skill lvl, and opening) you max out, split your forces in half, and attack in two different places at once. The protoss army needs to be together, or they get rolled. Where ever they're defending, you run away, and attack with the other force. they will go to defend the other side. and then you counter with the other force. If you don't out right kill them. you will continue to expand a few times, and then switch to mass muta for the kill. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On December 27 2014 08:46 MoosyDoosy wrote: I've been trying to perform some Muta play because I'm a bit tired of Roaches, but have no idea when I should grab gases and how many. What are some standard benchmarks to enter Mutalisk play? (Gas timings, 3rd base timings, whether I should switch back into Roach play afterwards or go Muta Ling. There are many different ways to execute this style. Some guys like to cut into their min/larve count, by getting gas earlier to get more muta faster (this is good vs gasless style for example) if you are facing standard play (ling speed and bane nest) I like to delay my gas's/lair a bit so I can afford all of my larve. 15hatch 16gas 15pool 17ov (lings or drones depending on the enemy opening) 2 queens (don't rush ling speed or bane nest to fast, get them around 26-28 supply, unless you are facing an all in) 28 double ov 40 ov 52 Lair, + 3 more gases, 60 ov, speed lings muta spire, and third. I like to stick with muta ling bling, if they go for fast hydra instead of infestors. If they go for fast infestors, ill go into roaches, take a fast forth, and get my own infestors too. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On December 26 2014 20:23 Big J wrote: Mutalisks are far easier to play. If you aren't diamond or above there's no shame in defaulting into mutas if you don't mind getting stuck in mass mutalisks battles. It's just much stronger if you don't have the mechanics and timings for roach play fleshed out yet. If you want to play roaches, there are a few ways to do so: roach timing just before mutas is good as Ej mentions if you already have a 3rd base and are spored up when the mutas arrive (which requires good scouting) you can go roach/infestor (about 8infestors) then transition into hydralisks max on roach/hydra and attack. (this requires him to stay high on mutalisks. if he plays less mutas, he is probably going ultras, in which case you should attack earlier, around 150-160supply) i think it's important to mention that the thing that makes muta play "easy" is the fact that subdiamond players typically have pretty bad scouting and response to mutas which allows games to equalize in a different way and changes the meta at that level. if you go up against someone who has ~4 mobile queens, spore crawlers and a tech transition when your mutas hit then muta play is not easy,and if their scout is on time and they flood your mineral lines with roaches its even less easy. if you open unscouted muta and get 10 free ovies and cancel the third that's one thing, but against strong defense you need to have the multitasking to be doing things like harassing extractors, pulling queens out of position, attacking rally lines to kill drones or hydras, etc. as for playing against muta, ej hit the important points. scout it, pressure with your superior roach army and transition to antiair with a round or two of queens to buffer. i am a big proponent of queen/infestor into hydra because good muta players will dive hydras and snipe a lot of them for free if you're not on top of your rallies, and that can snowball and keep you pinned down longer than you should be and delay your maxout. you only need a handful of infestors to threaten a muta pack of any size and that gives you time to drone up, add your hydra tech and upgrades and get 2/2 which is where you're trying to get against muta. here are some little things that i try to do against muta to make myself safer -when you start your spores, protect your wall (evos/roach warren) with a spore as well. you can then move it to the third or add a fourth spore -have a hotkey of queens separate from your roach army and always be ready to put roaches in your wall, because muta players love to hit your third with muta and try to runby into your main. however, at the same time, be ready to move your roaches to your queens in case the mutas and lings try to bulldog your queens and spore to kill your third. rallying into the wall means spawning roaches will be in position as well -make it a habit to move command your queen into your mineral line,/spore and hold position there, basic stuff just like against phoenix protoss but important. for the same reason, spam your overlords into your spores -if you identify mass muta (as opposed to 10-15 muta then roach transition) you will need infestors whether you went hydra first or not, because you need fungal not only for mutas but to counter the inevitable speedbane flood you'll fight later -do not worry about losing your roaches when you scout the spire and push. you are going to lose them, but you're trading for economic damage, time holding his ling/muta back, or ideally both. if he counterattacks with the lings your roaches will never die. just watch for spine crawler walls and make sure you don't lose everything for free because mass lings locked up your roach army and you were move commanding into the mineral lines (which are your target, stay there and if drones leave kill tech or hatcheries) | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
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Reithan
United States360 Posts
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BrutalPotato
6 Posts
What time should I be taking mine? What should I be doing to make sure I can defend it? What should I do to kill his third? | ||
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Muxtar
Ukraine64 Posts
As a zerg I have recently encountered with protoss denying/severely delaying my natural exp with putting pylon by his scout probe. When I go to my third instead to put base there, he just puts pylon there as well with the same or 2nd early probe (sometimes even on 4th base too - i.e. on Nimbus map). As a result I have two pylons in my 2nd/3rd bases and I can either pull 5-7 drones to kill one of pylons or wait for 2-4 lings to kill it too. Both options put me far behind from the start. What are you advices about preventing pylon blocks? Thanks in advance and happy holidays! | ||
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
On December 29 2014 17:34 Muxtar wrote: Hey all! As a zerg I have recently encountered with protoss denying/severely delaying my natural exp with putting pylon by his scout probe. When I go to my third instead to put base there, he just puts pylon there as well with the same or 2nd early probe (sometimes even on 4th base too - i.e. on Nimbus map). As a result I have two pylons in my 2nd/3rd bases and I can either pull 5-7 drones to kill one of pylons or wait for 2-4 lings to kill it too. Both options put me far behind from the start. What are you advices about preventing pylon blocks? Thanks in advance and happy holidays! you really aren't that far behind if he blocks both naturals. I don't know what league you are in but I usually go pool first vs protoss and I just wait for 4 lings to pop out before I expand. | ||
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