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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On September 17 2013 23:08 morgoth813 wrote: Almost every top zerg does not try to counter force fields with hydras. So play the game instead of blindly posting unneeded sentences. Except jd, drg and soulkey? OH WOW i just named the top zergs. The hydra ling timing is a HYDRA ling timing and not a roaching ling timing because of forcefields, get over it. | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
Almost every top zerg does not try to counter force fields with hydras. So play the game instead of blindly posting unneeded sentences. Yea man........ lol, wth? Like this is blatantly false. I'd have to say the the 2 most popular Zerg strategies I see from the Pro's (last 3-4 months) are Hydra/Ling/Roach into Viper (or Muta switch) or Ultra/Ling. I can't remember seeing that much Roach play. Yea......you'll see them added in but long gone are the days of Stephano heavy Roach. The only time I see prevalent Roach play is when defending some form of early Gateway pressure or X amount of Gateway all-ins. And even then, after the initial push is stopped you'll see them transition towards Hydra. Here are 2 games from Rain Vs Jaedong - Group A - WCS Season 2. Go to 17m mark to begin. Jaedong opens both games Hydra/Ling and transitions to Muta (game 1) and transitions into Viper (game 2): | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Forcefields have little to do with it, especially as you don't go for hydrarange early, always for hydraspeed. And 5range hydras can touch anything behind a forcefield just as much as 4range roaches... so basically nothing unless it is a zealot. | ||
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hearters
Singapore224 Posts
On September 18 2013 23:01 Big J wrote: Zergs play Hydras because Protoss open stargate most of the time. Roaches are still much better against gatewayheavy play but since roach/hydra doesn't just roll over and die past 15mins in HotS and is actually much stronger in the lategame than roaches there is hardly any reason not to go for hydras. Forcefields have little to do with it, especially as you don't go for hydrarange early, always for hydraspeed. And 5range hydras can touch anything behind a forcefield just as much as 4range roaches... so basically nothing unless it is a zealot. not completely true. jaedong often(if not always) goes for hydrarange before speed, most likely to specifically deal better against forcefields. and just in general, roach/hydra (with range upgraded) fares much better vs forcefields than pure roach. | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
Forcefields have little to do with it, especially as you don't go for hydrarange early, always for hydraspeed. And 5range hydras can touch anything behind a forcefield just as much as 4range roaches... so basically nothing unless it is a zealot. I was scratching my head a bit ^^ but then "hearters" already answered nicely. In my link above you see exactly that, Jaedong going Range first (it's his norm). And in most games I watch pro's grab Range 1st because it does better vs FFs, Phoenix sniping, VR, Stalker, etc. I've never gotten hydraspeed 1st, ever. I don't know who does lol. Even Blade55555 grabs Range 1st in every single Z vs P he plays. Roaches are still much better against gatewayheavy play IMO this is not anywhere close to true. Versus a small Sentry count and only facing zealots and Stalkers, then I'd agree. Any time sentry count gets high and you're facing quite a few Ranged Protoss units, such as Immortal/Sentry/Stalker who can all kill Roaches w/out taking damage themselves (FFs) then you're in a bad spot. And that's why you see #1 Zerg in the World, Jaedong open 2 important games (above) Hyda/Ling. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 19 2013 06:53 11B wrote: I was scratching my head a bit ^^ but then "hearters" already answered nicely. In my link above you see exactly that, Jaedong going Range first (it's his norm). And in most games I watch pro's grab Range 1st because it does better vs FFs, Phoenix sniping, VR, Stalker, etc. I've never gotten hydraspeed 1st, ever. I don't know who does lol. Even Blade55555 grabs Range 1st in every single Z vs P he plays. IMO this is not anywhere close to true. Versus a small Sentry count and only facing zealots and Stalkers, then I'd agree. Any time sentry count gets high and you're facing quite a few Ranged Protoss units, such as Immortal/Sentry/Stalker who can all kill Roaches w/out taking damage themselves (FFs) then you're in a bad spot. And that's why you see #1 Zerg in the World, Jaedong open 2 important games (above) Hyda/Ling. both dof the shown games are against stargate openings. There is no reason to go roach before hydra once you see a stargate, you dont need the roaches defensively and often cant use them offensively, while you can use hydras extremely well defensively and offensively. It is simply better to go hydras into roaches against stargate play, while against groundplay it is the other way around (or in case of fast colossus play like the 2-2-2, you dont really want a lot of hydras) Even more, when the opponent opens stargate he is not going to be sentryheavy. | ||
JacobShock
Denmark2485 Posts
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
On September 19 2013 08:04 JacobShock wrote: Lately on streams I have noticed that many players hotkey hatcheries individually, at least in the very beginning of the game, some even throughout. Players like Jaedong, Blade, Idra etc. What is the benefit of this? I might already know the answers, but I am wondering if its worth to switch my play up now to do the same. You can do it, I dont. At the beginning of the game it can help but again you dont need to. It can be useful for, say a toss is all ining you, you select your main, make units from there. Select natural, make units from there. But I just use hotkeys and when he attacks, I will select all hatches and shift-deselect the one that I dont need. | ||
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Incand
143 Posts
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On September 19 2013 08:04 JacobShock wrote: Lately on streams I have noticed that many players hotkey hatcheries individually, at least in the very beginning of the game, some even throughout. Players like Jaedong, Blade, Idra etc. What is the benefit of this? I might already know the answers, but I am wondering if its worth to switch my play up now to do the same. When I do it, its just because I'm a stubborn ass who won't change his setup for SC2 and kept a lot of habits from BW. One of those was hotkeying each hatch at each expo so I could have more than 1 way to flash the camera over to it if I needed to do something quickly while microing muta vs marine or something. | ||
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VerdeCreed
United States27 Posts
I just had three games in a row where the enemy protoss went for a delayed cannon rush. The first game I won. I saw two probes so I pulled two drone and went for a 15 hatch, 15 pool. He didn't attempt to pylon block, so I used threw down my hatch with one drone, and patrolled the ramp wit my second drone. An overlord caught a probe building a pylon in a wide open area, so I grabbed 5 workers and tried to kill the probe. I let the pylon finish. One the cannon started I began to auto it with my drones. Round 2 came shortly thereafter, but by then I had lings. Game two I lost. I did the exact same thing except my opponent executed better. He only brought 1 probe, and utilized mineral walking to escape my surrounds.The first pylon went up, blocking my hatch. I had one drone paroling over top of where I wanted my hatch, but he (guessed correctly?) and got a pylon down anyway.This time however he went for a pylon in my minerals, and then blocked himself in with the cannon. With no lings and no way to get a surround, I couldn't hope to get through fast enough. Frustrating loss. Game three was the worst. Once again I saw one early probes. I sent two drones. Only began to patrol and he dropped a pylon anyway. (Is it even blockable?). I sent one drone to my third and one drone to my fourth. He went to my third and dropped a pylon block... then went to my FOURTH and dropped a pylon right next to my hatchery. Obviously I am way too far away to pull drones, so I let it finish. He then begins building a cannon. Screwed again. (My reaction was to cancel to hatch and go for a one base roach all-in. I did no damage. Luckily I actually managed to win in the late game with a good mix of 3 Hatch Ultra/Ling!) So am I forced to pool first versus protoss? I am the guy that NEVER pools first, so it will grind against my nature XD. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 19 2013 08:04 JacobShock wrote: Lately on streams I have noticed that many players hotkey hatcheries individually, at least in the very beginning of the game, some even throughout. Players like Jaedong, Blade, Idra etc. What is the benefit of this? I might already know the answers, but I am wondering if its worth to switch my play up now to do the same. I think idra only does it for the first 3 minutes and then puts it into a hotkey where every other hatchery goes. I do it because I like to have control of where my screen goes (when i want to go to main I can press 55 and I am at my main, rather then clicking there and all that). I hate all hatcheries on 1 hotkey because then it goes to my closest and drives me nuts. I also was just to lazy to change it from bw (which required 1 hatch per hotkey, no mbs). For jaedong he probably does it for the same reason and the fact he has so much apm it shouldn't affect his play at all either. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On September 20 2013 12:38 VerdeCreed wrote: How to you stop a pylon block, and a delayed cannon rush? I just had three games in a row where the enemy protoss went for a delayed cannon rush. The first game I won. I saw two probes so I pulled two drone and went for a 15 hatch, 15 pool. He didn't attempt to pylon block, so I used threw down my hatch with one drone, and patrolled the ramp wit my second drone. An overlord caught a probe building a pylon in a wide open area, so I grabbed 5 workers and tried to kill the probe. I let the pylon finish. One the cannon started I began to auto it with my drones. Round 2 came shortly thereafter, but by then I had lings. Game two I lost. I did the exact same thing except my opponent executed better. He only brought 1 probe, and utilized mineral walking to escape my surrounds.The first pylon went up, blocking my hatch. I had one drone paroling over top of where I wanted my hatch, but he (guessed correctly?) and got a pylon down anyway.This time however he went for a pylon in my minerals, and then blocked himself in with the cannon. With no lings and no way to get a surround, I couldn't hope to get through fast enough. Frustrating loss. Game three was the worst. Once again I saw one early probes. I sent two drones. Only began to patrol and he dropped a pylon anyway. (Is it even blockable?). I sent one drone to my third and one drone to my fourth. He went to my third and dropped a pylon block... then went to my FOURTH and dropped a pylon right next to my hatchery. Obviously I am way too far away to pull drones, so I let it finish. He then begins building a cannon. Screwed again. (My reaction was to cancel to hatch and go for a one base roach all-in. I did no damage. Luckily I actually managed to win in the late game with a good mix of 3 Hatch Ultra/Ling!) So am I forced to pool first versus protoss? I am the guy that NEVER pools first, so it will grind against my nature XD. if he probescouts you should always go pool first since he wont probescout with gatefirst (or later on at least). some Ps get tricky and go FFE into delayed probescout to make you hatch first and then cannon rush you. on some maps like belshir bottom i dont think its possible to deny a cannon rush with hatch first. but if you really want to take the risk, pull 4 drones once he puts down the pylon, let 1 drone follow probe, and 3 drones on patrol each on 1 side of the pylon so he cant wall himself in. once he starts cannons, pull 4 drones per cannon (4 out DPS a warping in cannon). | ||
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LordImmortala
Korea (South)41 Posts
In wol wasnt it like 16 hatch? | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On September 21 2013 00:15 LordImmortala wrote: Why has the build order changed to 15hatxh/pool or 15pool hatch? In wol wasnt it like 16 hatch? imo it is still 14 or 15p into 16h or 15h 16p. | ||
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iPhoneAppz
United States37 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 21 2013 00:15 LordImmortala wrote: Why has the build order changed to 15hatxh/pool or 15pool hatch? In wol wasnt it like 16 hatch? In ZvP I play 14p/15h, with the reasoning that you want to deal with hatch blocks or canonrushes asap. In ZvT it's 15h/15p for me because of reapers. No need to stress yourself a lot or even lose drones just for a tiny bit of extra money. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On September 21 2013 13:54 iPhoneAppz wrote: I've been playing 15h 16p in ZvP and ZvT but I've been playing 12 pool in ZvZ due to the large amount of cheese in the lower levels. Hate to break it to you, but that zvz doesn't get better in higher levels. What you see as cheese is normal everyday zvz. Might as well learn a stronger opening now. 15 pool is pretty good agains most cheeses too. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
I don't get why Koreans go for roach gazless, then 1/1 upgrades. Honestly, each time i do i get crushed by early agression. Even if i don't get all-ined, mutas styles seem to be stronger (map contrôl, can take safely more base). And when you push with roach, they just need mass spine to be safe. And they can go for mutas into roach/hydra, mutas/baneling wich crush hydras, or ultra. Even with the roach style, i don't get why Snute says it's better to go pure roach and research only +1 attack, +2 attack. But the best code S korean go for 1/1, cut roach before 200/200 for hydra tech, or infestor tech while it seems weak to a pure roach timing push. Honestly if someone can explain me the reasons behind ZvZ meta, it will be awsome. | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
Gasless works well on maps that can accomplish good sim-city with 3 buildings. It's a good idea to lay a creep tumor at your natural first so you can wall off ASAP. The Snute way gets you an earlier +1 which comes in handy during your initial push, pre Muta, or just as they are morphing (you should be attacking with +1 in the 9:10 - 9:25 range)......which works great in offsetting defensive lings. Also, by only going one evo you can accumulate more Roaches sooner, or rather, you need fewer drones initially which allows you to start making Roaches sooner. Additionally, with only 3 initial gases you can grab your 3rd Hatch sooner and have a nice window to produce more Roaches. So don't underestimate the importance of you possessing Xamount more Roaches than your opponent. If you have 26 Roaches vs 22 Roaches you'll win with 9-10 Roaches left. Earlier +1 and earlier 3rd can lead towards 2 nice timing attacks. And when going Roachs vs Muta/Ling/Bling you can transition into Roach/Infestor (can attack as soon as you get Infestors out) or go the Roach/Hydra route but then you really need to wait for 200/200 2/2. Try watching some of the Koreans games from the WCS America and Korea, and recent Dreamhack tournaments. You'll find lots and lots of Z vs Z games Roach vs Roach, with different variations. You find Muta play too!! but just not nearly as much of it. | ||
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