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On September 16 2013 00:29 11B wrote:Show nested quote +4. Hydras are more fragile than a piece of paper, yet barely have the range of a stalker when upgraded. that's really a horrible idea. Hydra's with range do quite well vs sentries and Immortals. What's better? A 4 range Roach stuck behind FFs which can't attack the sentries/Immortals/Stalkers etc, or A Hydra with range? And if you still refuse to use Hydra's then get burrow. This will definitely increase the life of your Roaches/Lings until they get observers. And even then, if they don't position observers perfectly you might squeeze some extra life out of your units.
I was thinking about exactly that. The main problem with hydras is that they just melt to everything, especially colossi, I don't really want to engage a toss with hydralisks anymore (I normally use SH when they get colo though).
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I was thinking about exactly that. The main problem with hydras is that they just melt to everything, especially colossi, I don't really want to engage a toss with hydralisks anymore (I normally use SH when they get colo though).
Unless they're doing some sort of extreme early Colossus push (pretty much need Corruptors) then just use Vipers yea? Start your IP no later than 8:30-8:40 and you'll have useable Vipers (already consumed) in the 13:00 - 13:15 range. Bring along a spore crawler with a Queen or two (they transfuse the spore) and you get non stop Viper energy.
It's a popular and strong timing that works out well ..........if you can keep at least 1 Viper alive (start with 3) you can usually get a total of 7-8 Abducts which is quite hard for a Toss to stop before HT.
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Hi guys! What's your gameplan in standard mmmm ZvT? I'm gonna explain me.
I like to play macro and according with current metagame, Terran goes to 3CC into midgame bio mine push until end of game. I know I have to take 3 quick base and saturate it on early game but when Terran begins to push me I spend all my resources and AMPs to defend me until usually I lose because I can't harass him. He is all game attack me and I can't touch his base. So, what's your plan on midgame in this match? You need mutas to defense and catch drops but if you don't harass, Terran is free to take many bases. Thanks in advance.
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On September 16 2013 17:30 Destruktor wrote:
Hi guys! What's your gameplan in standard mmmm ZvT? I'm gonna explain me.
I like to play macro and according with current metagame, Terran goes to 3CC into midgame bio mine push until end of game. I know I have to take 3 quick base and saturate it on early game but when Terran begins to push me I spend all my resources and AMPs to defend me until usually I lose because I can't harass him. He is all game attack me and I can't touch his base. So, what's your plan on midgame in this match? You need mutas to defense and catch drops but if you don't harass, Terran is free to take many bases. Thanks in advance.
well basically you summed up how every Z feels in TvZ since months  what helps is getting 4 spines + 1 spore at your 4th towards his pushing lange (which DRG started doing and helps a lot). imo you can choose 3 ways of dealing with it. either only get 15 mutas for drop defense and killing medivacs while going hive + from there +3 +3 and ultra infestor or mass mutas or you stay on lair and get mass muta right away. going hive is tricky vs good opponents since they will force you to use your gas all the time for new banes, mutas and overseers. this is where the 4 spines at your 4th come in handily. basically its all about keeping your 4th alive while denying his 4th which is really hard to do.
as for harrassment...in most pro games you see its not worth it. in most games you see Z do harrass with ling bane they lose a base afterwards since those ling bane are missing, same if you choose your mutas to harrass, T either kills a base or drops you while mutas are on the other side of the map.
so yeah, you got the general approach, all you can do now is really outplay your opponent, on equal skill you will lose right now, another small buff will fix that though, not much needed, so keep playing 
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On September 16 2013 17:54 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 17:30 Destruktor wrote:
Hi guys! What's your gameplan in standard mmmm ZvT? I'm gonna explain me.
I like to play macro and according with current metagame, Terran goes to 3CC into midgame bio mine push until end of game. I know I have to take 3 quick base and saturate it on early game but when Terran begins to push me I spend all my resources and AMPs to defend me until usually I lose because I can't harass him. He is all game attack me and I can't touch his base. So, what's your plan on midgame in this match? You need mutas to defense and catch drops but if you don't harass, Terran is free to take many bases. Thanks in advance. well basically you summed up how every Z feels in TvZ since months what helps is getting 4 spines + 1 spore at your 4th towards his pushing lange (which DRG started doing and helps a lot). imo you can choose 3 ways of dealing with it. either only get 15 mutas for drop defense and killing medivacs while going hive + from there +3 +3 and ultra infestor or mass mutas or you stay on lair and get mass muta right away. going hive is tricky vs good opponents since they will force you to use your gas all the time for new banes, mutas and overseers. this is where the 4 spines at your 4th come in handily. basically its all about keeping your 4th alive while denying his 4th which is really hard to do. as for harrassment...in most pro games you see its not worth it. in most games you see Z do harrass with ling bane they lose a base afterwards since those ling bane are missing, same if you choose your mutas to harrass, T either kills a base or drops you while mutas are on the other side of the map. so yeah, you got the general approach, all you can do now is really outplay your opponent, on equal skill you will lose right now, another small buff will fix that though, not much needed, so keep playing
Thanks. I'll try to use static defenses in my 3th and 4th and a few on main, to keep them alive and I'll use my army to contain push. I would like to use more burrow banes too but always I forgot to use them XD.
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On September 16 2013 19:01 Destruktor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 17:54 Decendos wrote:On September 16 2013 17:30 Destruktor wrote:
Hi guys! What's your gameplan in standard mmmm ZvT? I'm gonna explain me.
I like to play macro and according with current metagame, Terran goes to 3CC into midgame bio mine push until end of game. I know I have to take 3 quick base and saturate it on early game but when Terran begins to push me I spend all my resources and AMPs to defend me until usually I lose because I can't harass him. He is all game attack me and I can't touch his base. So, what's your plan on midgame in this match? You need mutas to defense and catch drops but if you don't harass, Terran is free to take many bases. Thanks in advance. well basically you summed up how every Z feels in TvZ since months what helps is getting 4 spines + 1 spore at your 4th towards his pushing lange (which DRG started doing and helps a lot). imo you can choose 3 ways of dealing with it. either only get 15 mutas for drop defense and killing medivacs while going hive + from there +3 +3 and ultra infestor or mass mutas or you stay on lair and get mass muta right away. going hive is tricky vs good opponents since they will force you to use your gas all the time for new banes, mutas and overseers. this is where the 4 spines at your 4th come in handily. basically its all about keeping your 4th alive while denying his 4th which is really hard to do. as for harrassment...in most pro games you see its not worth it. in most games you see Z do harrass with ling bane they lose a base afterwards since those ling bane are missing, same if you choose your mutas to harrass, T either kills a base or drops you while mutas are on the other side of the map. so yeah, you got the general approach, all you can do now is really outplay your opponent, on equal skill you will lose right now, another small buff will fix that though, not much needed, so keep playing Thanks. I'll try to use static defenses in my 3th and 4th and a few on main, to keep them alive and I'll use my army to contain push. I would like to use more burrow banes too but always I forgot to use them XD.
I just go 3base ultra if they play greedy and watch them QQ about ez mode zerg
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On September 15 2013 17:56 morgoth813 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2013 06:43 hearters wrote:On September 15 2013 03:44 morgoth813 wrote:
How do you deal with force fields ? 1. Choose the place of engagement well. Smaller chokes are easily forcefielded. Middle of derelict watcher for example is wide open and requires a lot of forcefields. 2. Retreat if protoss throws down a lot of forcefields. Use the time to gather reinforcements. He will have less forcefields for later. 3. Attack from multiple angles to make it harder for protoss to forcefield and make them use more forcefields. 4. Hydras with range can still sometimes shoot despite forcefields 5. Make more units to compensate for forcefields. 6. Ultralisks stomp on forcefields. 4. Hydras are more fragile than a piece of paper, yet barely have the range of a stalker when upgraded. that's really a horrible idea.
The usual hydra-ling timing is the time the hydras shine the most. You will meet 1 colossus or 0 usually. You can't use only hydra-ling as a late game composition obviously that's why you transition into corruptor-ling-hydra to end the game there or mutas/swarm hosts. Hydralisks also hold very easily the sentry immortal all-in (many many forcefields in that one) because thye can attack even when FF'd. So play the game instead of blindly call what almost every top zerg does a horrible idea.
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3base ultra vs Terran, I'm not sure if that would work in a higher level game. The Terran just needs to start marauder production and you pretty much lose, not being on 4 bases. Vs Terran when you feel safe enough tech to hive while doing counterattacks to deny his 4th and then do an utra timing with, say 4-5 of them. Or if they lose too many units very early 13:30 say their entire army dies, so kill his 3rd.
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On September 16 2013 03:27 morgoth813 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 00:29 11B wrote:4. Hydras are more fragile than a piece of paper, yet barely have the range of a stalker when upgraded. that's really a horrible idea. Hydra's with range do quite well vs sentries and Immortals. What's better? A 4 range Roach stuck behind FFs which can't attack the sentries/Immortals/Stalkers etc, or A Hydra with range? And if you still refuse to use Hydra's then get burrow. This will definitely increase the life of your Roaches/Lings until they get observers. And even then, if they don't position observers perfectly you might squeeze some extra life out of your units. I was thinking about exactly that. The main problem with hydras is that they just melt to everything, especially colossi, I don't really want to engage a toss with hydralisks anymore (I normally use SH when they get colo though).
I use hydras for DPS. Perfect for defending gateway pressure along with roach ling. By getting 10-15 hydras you pretty much force colossus tech (or HTs but its alot weaker in midgame imo). I try to pressure their 3rd with roach hydra ling while taking a 4th and teching to mutas behind it.
Abuse the fact that P needs to be defensive when going for colossus tech!
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On September 16 2013 21:17 SweKenZo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 03:27 morgoth813 wrote:On September 16 2013 00:29 11B wrote:4. Hydras are more fragile than a piece of paper, yet barely have the range of a stalker when upgraded. that's really a horrible idea. Hydra's with range do quite well vs sentries and Immortals. What's better? A 4 range Roach stuck behind FFs which can't attack the sentries/Immortals/Stalkers etc, or A Hydra with range? And if you still refuse to use Hydra's then get burrow. This will definitely increase the life of your Roaches/Lings until they get observers. And even then, if they don't position observers perfectly you might squeeze some extra life out of your units. I was thinking about exactly that. The main problem with hydras is that they just melt to everything, especially colossi, I don't really want to engage a toss with hydralisks anymore (I normally use SH when they get colo though). I use hydras for DPS. Perfect for defending gateway pressure along with roach ling. By getting 10-15 hydras you pretty much force colossus tech (or HTs but its alot weaker in midgame imo). I try to pressure their 3rd with roach hydra ling while taking a 4th and teching to mutas behind it. Abuse the fact that P needs to be defensive when going for colossus tech!
On September 16 2013 21:17 SweKenZo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 03:27 morgoth813 wrote:On September 16 2013 00:29 11B wrote:4. Hydras are more fragile than a piece of paper, yet barely have the range of a stalker when upgraded. that's really a horrible idea. Hydra's with range do quite well vs sentries and Immortals. What's better? A 4 range Roach stuck behind FFs which can't attack the sentries/Immortals/Stalkers etc, or A Hydra with range? And if you still refuse to use Hydra's then get burrow. This will definitely increase the life of your Roaches/Lings until they get observers. And even then, if they don't position observers perfectly you might squeeze some extra life out of your units. I was thinking about exactly that. The main problem with hydras is that they just melt to everything, especially colossi, I don't really want to engage a toss with hydralisks anymore (I normally use SH when they get colo though). I use hydras for DPS. Perfect for defending gateway pressure along with roach ling. By getting 10-15 hydras you pretty much force colossus tech (or HTs but its alot weaker in midgame imo). I try to pressure their 3rd with roach hydra ling while taking a 4th and teching to mutas behind it. Abuse the fact that P needs to be defensive when going for colossus tech!
Hydras for holding all ins and gateway pressure are situational. If the all in hits later, say around 10:00, hydraling helps. You obviously wont have them vs a 7 gate +1 all in (where youll need roach/ling/spine, maybe even roach burrow will help a ton.) and you wont need them vs a 2/2/2 (get muta + basetrade or roach + corrupter. If he doesnt all in with the fast colo, get mutas.)
And people with colossus tech dont have to be defensive. Theyre really any ordinary army unit that can be aggressive and defensive equally. But usualy theyll defend until they get a high enough count.
and the statment to be aggressive while taking a 4th behind it is a playstyle choice, as you may of intended. I like to get a 4th rather quickly and tech to vipers at a moderate pace, and see if I can attack with a roachdyra viper force. If he has enough to defend (aka lots of hts) Ill fall back, take a 5th (even before this I may of taken a fifth) and add in 12-15 swarm hosts. I then use 3 different army comps that are capable of combating his army, depending on which army he goes for.
By the time I move out with Vipers I should have enouh money to put like 4 spines + overseer per base. I dont use a spore because it can get sniped by zlots and dts.
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France252 Posts
I'm quite intrigued by this ling/hydra into muta/whatever ZvP midgame (DRG style or not so much, as I've been told). Can anyone post the "standard" build for that or give me some directions about the upgrades/lair timings ? Also, is getting +1 melee +1 carap the way to go whatever the transition is ?
Ty guys.
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I don't think there's a standard build for it DjaEl. I see lot's of variations out there....most of which I'm not found of lol. I just don't like the accepted norm in regards to standard gas timings when going the Hydra/Ling route.
In any case, I'd suggest opening rather standard with pool > hatch > hatch and go from there. Keep in mind if you do the standard 2X gas at 6:00 then realistically you'll only be able to afford one evo chamber and in all likelihood will have an initial lower Hydralisk count as well as delayed Hydra Range.
Opening with 2x gas at 5:25, followed by 2x gas at 7:15ish allows you enough gas to get Lair, Hydralisk Range, +1 Missle, +1 Melee, Ling Speed, and 12 Hydra's supported w/ 40-45 Lings (with around 60 drones) by around the 9:50 - 10:00 mark.......and a macro Hatch around 9:00 - 9:30 (or 4th base).
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France252 Posts
Thank you 11B.
So in your opinion the 2x gas at 5:25 is more of a gimmick and you'd rather use standard timings, if I got it well ? Do you still do an hydra timing then ?
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IMO 5:25 is better than standard for Hydra/Ling. Getting 2x gas 30 seconds early doesn't hurt your economy (we're not getting Roaches).....You can spend money/larvae just fine, as long as getting evo's, upgrades, tech, and units. In addition you get Range, 12 Hydra, before 10:00 which is before most 2base all-ins involving Robo facilities. And you can still afford to throw down 2 evo's around 7:00 for +1 missle +1 Melee for a 10:40ish timing attack (by time you arrive at their base).
In the vast majority of cases this does 2 things: 1, stop any early Protoss agression or all-ins. 2, prevent ( or delay) or kill their expansion........which forces Colossus which you already knew and should be prepared for.
It all boils down to the gas. It takes 100 Lair, 100 speed, 100 Den, 150 Range, 100 missile attack, 100 melee which is 650 gas. Then you still need gas to make Hydras.......imo, at least 10 Hydra's, or 500 additional gas. Starting 2x gas at 6:00 gives you roughly 600gas by 9:00.........Now imo the latest you want to morph your last Hydra egg is 9:20seconds (Hydra pre 10:00). Anyways.........I'm rambling but hopefully you can see my point which is, it takes 1150 gas for everything above. If you don't start gas geysers sooner (to include 3rd/4th gas) than "standard" you won't get there.
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Hellow fellow swarmers.
I am about to delve into the gloriousness that is the WCS replay releases and I was wondering if anyone has a suggestion on a specific player to study in terms of some good ole standard ling / bling / muta
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On September 17 2013 16:42 gongshow41 wrote:
Hellow fellow swarmers.
I am about to delve into the gloriousness that is the WCS replay releases and I was wondering if anyone has a suggestion on a specific player to study in terms of some good ole standard ling / bling / muta
Scarlett! She always goes macrostyle and plays it very well. Otherwise soulkey have done a couple of really nice games and drg to.
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France252 Posts
On September 17 2013 06:32 11B wrote:
IMO 5:25 is better than standard for Hydra/Ling. Getting 2x gas 30 seconds early doesn't hurt your economy (we're not getting Roaches).....You can spend money/larvae just fine, as long as getting evo's, upgrades, tech, and units. In addition you get Range, 12 Hydra, before 10:00 which is before most 2base all-ins involving Robo facilities. And you can still afford to throw down 2 evo's around 7:00 for +1 missle +1 Melee for a 10:40ish timing attack (by time you arrive at their base).
In the vast majority of cases this does 2 things: 1, stop any early Protoss agression or all-ins. 2, prevent ( or delay) or kill their expansion........which forces Colossus which you already knew and should be prepared for.
It all boils down to the gas. It takes 100 Lair, 100 speed, 100 Den, 150 Range, 100 missile attack, 100 melee which is 650 gas. Then you still need gas to make Hydras.......imo, at least 10 Hydra's, or 500 additional gas. Starting 2x gas at 6:00 gives you roughly 600gas by 9:00.........Now imo the latest you want to morph your last Hydra egg is 9:20seconds (Hydra pre 10:00). Anyways.........I'm rambling but hopefully you can see my point which is, it takes 1150 gas for everything above. If you don't start gas geysers sooner (to include 3rd/4th gas) than "standard" you won't get there.
I can see your point. I'll definitely try that. Just a last question: in case of a 2 immo 2 colo all in, wouldnt it be bad to commit to hydras this early, as imo you only can hold this by going mass roaches, something you must prepare early. Do you still stay on hydra tech in this case or do you go roaches anyways?
(I suppose you make a RW as well if you see early all ins incoming, as 7 gates or Soul Train?)
EDIT: I also dont understand why you get missile upgrades instead of carapace, are'nt unupgraded lings awful vs +1 zealots?
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Just a last question: in case of a 2 immo 2 colo all in, wouldnt it be bad to commit to hydras this early, as imo you only can hold this by going mass roaches, something you must prepare early. Do you still stay on hydra tech in this case or do you go roaches anyways?
You won't always be able to scout the Robotics Bay and in such cases you've already got Hydra tech so I find it best to find good engagements and surrounds. 2 Colo won't absolutely melt your Army with multiple angles and your Macro Hatch should be kicking in too......buying you enough time to grab more units/tech as needed to deal with his push. Besides, 12 Hydra and 45+ lings that are both upgrades is nothing to sneeze at, especially with lots of reinforcements on the way.
But yea, if I spot it then I prefer Roach/Ling/Muta or Corruptor as I'm teching my way up to Hive. On the bright side, by taking gas 30s earlier, when you do spot the above, your Lair/Tech will arrive sooner which I translate into advantage Zerg.
EDIT: I also dont understand why you get missile upgrades instead of carapace, are'nt unupgraded lings awful vs +1 zealots?
+ Show Spoiler +I get +1 Missile and +1 Melee which provides for a pretty powerful timing push, or vs 2base All-ins. Additionally it's cheaper and cost less gas so you get them started sooner.....an important aspect in my eyes. Keep in mind Protoss will already have finished +1 pre 10:00 right? You'll finish +1 Missile/+1 Melee at 10:15. If you went Carapace you're upgrades would finish even later....making his push stronger and your counter a bit weaker cause you have to wait a few more seconds for upgrades to finish.
I suppose you could just get +1 Cara only and start it sooner but I'd rather have +1/1 myself. Also, FFs tend to mess things up so I find it useful to deal more damage. Plus, when I grab Hydra tech the plan is to stay aggressive with them so I want that missile attack. Additionally, it helps keep Colossus count low until I get vipers (if game goes that long).
I don't know ^^. Just a personal choice I guess. I've found that once Toss gets +2 Attack (charge lots by then) they trade pretty evenly with +2 Cara Lings. In HoTs unit tester 80 zerglings vs 40 Zealots, the zerglings win about 70%.....with like 6-8 lings left. The other 30% they lose with 2-4 zealots left. So for the extra cost in gas/minerals and delayed upgrade time you're not really gaining anything. Another advantage of pursuing early +1 Melee is when using Blings right? That's 1 less bling (4 total) to kill a bunch of zealots. Side note.....+3 Melee (w/ no cara) Adrenal glands absolutely crush +3 Attack charge zeaots.
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On September 16 2013 20:30 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2013 17:56 morgoth813 wrote:On September 15 2013 06:43 hearters wrote:On September 15 2013 03:44 morgoth813 wrote:
How do you deal with force fields ? 1. Choose the place of engagement well. Smaller chokes are easily forcefielded. Middle of derelict watcher for example is wide open and requires a lot of forcefields. 2. Retreat if protoss throws down a lot of forcefields. Use the time to gather reinforcements. He will have less forcefields for later. 3. Attack from multiple angles to make it harder for protoss to forcefield and make them use more forcefields. 4. Hydras with range can still sometimes shoot despite forcefields 5. Make more units to compensate for forcefields. 6. Ultralisks stomp on forcefields. 4. Hydras are more fragile than a piece of paper, yet barely have the range of a stalker when upgraded. that's really a horrible idea. The usual hydra-ling timing is the time the hydras shine the most. You will meet 1 colossus or 0 usually. You can't use only hydra-ling as a late game composition obviously that's why you transition into corruptor-ling-hydra to end the game there or mutas/swarm hosts. Hydralisks also hold very easily the sentry immortal all-in (many many forcefields in that one) because thye can attack even when FF'd. So play the game instead of blindly call what almost every top zerg does a horrible idea.
Almost every top zerg does not try to counter force fields with hydras. So play the game instead of blindly posting unneeded sentences.
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On September 17 2013 23:08 morgoth813 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 20:30 Karpfen wrote:On September 15 2013 17:56 morgoth813 wrote:On September 15 2013 06:43 hearters wrote:On September 15 2013 03:44 morgoth813 wrote:
How do you deal with force fields ? 1. Choose the place of engagement well. Smaller chokes are easily forcefielded. Middle of derelict watcher for example is wide open and requires a lot of forcefields. 2. Retreat if protoss throws down a lot of forcefields. Use the time to gather reinforcements. He will have less forcefields for later. 3. Attack from multiple angles to make it harder for protoss to forcefield and make them use more forcefields. 4. Hydras with range can still sometimes shoot despite forcefields 5. Make more units to compensate for forcefields. 6. Ultralisks stomp on forcefields. 4. Hydras are more fragile than a piece of paper, yet barely have the range of a stalker when upgraded. that's really a horrible idea. The usual hydra-ling timing is the time the hydras shine the most. You will meet 1 colossus or 0 usually. You can't use only hydra-ling as a late game composition obviously that's why you transition into corruptor-ling-hydra to end the game there or mutas/swarm hosts. Hydralisks also hold very easily the sentry immortal all-in (many many forcefields in that one) because thye can attack even when FF'd. So play the game instead of blindly call what almost every top zerg does a horrible idea. Almost every top zerg does not try to counter force fields with hydras. So play the game instead of blindly posting unneeded sentences.
From http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=428262 emphasis is mine
The sooner the Zerg player can make Protoss use forcefields before getting to the Zerg's base, the easier it is to hold this. If there is time, adding in swarm hosts is a good option, but normally there isn’t enough time for this. If you see this coming or know it’s going to happen, going straight for hydra/ling can hold this as well. Try to engage the Protoss army in as wide an area as possible. Engaging this army in a choke only favors the Protoss player, so avoiding a choke is necessary to hold this.
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EPT
