EPT1. The name of the opener/idea
2. Basic Build (gas timings, roach warren, lair, evo chambers)
3. Goal
The HotS Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 119
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
1. The name of the opener/idea 2. Basic Build (gas timings, roach warren, lair, evo chambers) 3. Goal | ||
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Tritone
Japan76 Posts
What are some good ways to defend drops while going roach/hydra vs Terran? I know I should be placing overlords better. But what else? Static defense? Some lings and banelings near my hatcheries? Keep my main army around the hatcheries? Keep in mind I'm in the lower leagues. Thanks! | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
On September 24 2013 00:32 Tritone wrote: Hi everybody! What are some good ways to defend drops while going roach/hydra vs Terran? I know I should be placing overlords better. But what else? Static defense? Some lings and banelings near my hatcheries? Keep my main army around the hatcheries? Keep in mind I'm in the lower leagues. Thanks! I don't play roach hydra but roach bane or ultra bane. What I do is to make 1-2 spores at bases that can be dropped, leave 10 lings and make sure the queen(s) is positioned to fast target a medivac. With roach/hydra I guess adding a spine and leaving 3 hydras instead of lings should stop most drops. Might not even need a spine, 3 hydras and a queen (and possibly some spore shot) should dps a medivac fast enough for him to not get many units out. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On September 24 2013 02:45 Zheryn wrote: I don't play roach hydra but roach bane or ultra bane. What I do is to make 1-2 spores at bases that can be dropped, leave 10 lings and make sure the queen(s) is positioned to fast target a medivac. With roach/hydra I guess adding a spine and leaving 3 hydras instead of lings should stop most drops. Might not even need a spine, 3 hydras and a queen (and possibly some spore shot) should dps a medivac fast enough for him to not get many units out. agree on the spore suggestion but leaving 3 hydras at lets say 3 bases means a lot of gas and most of all a lot of supply left and 3 hydras dont even kill 8 marines with medivac support i think. imo its better to go pretty spore heavy and only 2 spines or so per mineral line to stall for your roaches to clean it up. but roach hydra overall is very hard to pull off vs an equally skilled opponent. on some maps you shouldnt even try to go roach hydra like whirlwind or other maps where drops are good. | ||
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NiDoXiD
Germany28 Posts
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11B
United States188 Posts
I'll just talk about the +1 Roach timing.... 1. I'll call it the Hyun, or Korean style early +1 Roach 2. Basic build is: - 15 Pool - 15 Hatch - 1x gas around 3:35 - 3 total Queens - start Lair at around 5:50 (or when floating 200gas) followed by +1 - 6:00 start evo and RW - when natural is saturated start 2x gas (around 6:10 - 6:15) - 7:15 Benchmark: Approximately 45 drones (then stop), 3 gas, Lair, start RW speed, +1 25% finished - start 3rd hatchery when you think you can get away with it. 3. The goal is to outproduce your opponent with a higher number of upgraded Roaches which will allow you to gain some form of advantage to either win outright or transition into a stronger position mid-late game. Vs a Muta opener the goal should be to do the same thing but in a much smaller timing window, i.e., before Muta pop, or as they are being hatched. Here's a replay of Hyun vs Gower in I believe the semi-finals of WCS Korea or Usa?: http://drop.sc/360365 | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
When im going for Muta in ZvZ and i identify a Roach-Timing that hits shorty after the Muta-pop, what is the best way to react to this. The mutas don't kill the roaches fast enouch to denie significant damage. My suggestion is to grab an evo chamber pre 6:00 and start +1 carapace before you start your Lair and go heavy on Lings. You should be able to grab your own early 3rd while denying his......and then all you need to do is stop his initial Roach push with good surrounds. That should buy you time to get Muta out and then power drone your 3rd. Doesn't always work but in theory its a nice counter. | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
Now to my question: If you (as I did this game) see his probe after making your 9 supply overlord, what build do you go for to hardcounter it? | ||
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AwM
United States80 Posts
On September 24 2013 11:05 11B wrote: My suggestion is to grab an evo chamber pre 6:00 and start +1 carapace before you start your Lair and go heavy on Lings. You should be able to grab your own early 3rd while denying his......and then all you need to do is stop his initial Roach push with good surrounds. That should buy you time to get Muta out and then power drone your 3rd. Doesn't always work but in theory its a nice counter. This is similar to what I've (as far as I know) come up with to counter all of the +1 Roach timings that seem to pretty much make up ZvZ now. It's hard taking a fully mental build and putting it in a B/O, but here it is for anyone who wants to see or who might have suggestions: + Show Spoiler + 09 - Overlord 15 - Hatch 15 -Pool 16 -Gas 16 - Overlord 18 - Queen 21 - 2 pairs of lings, scout with one pair to make sure nothing too crazy is coming your way. Keep the other in your base for defensive banes later At this point it's all timings, so supply numbers go away. !!! Gas Timings !!! - 100 - Ling speed - 50 - Bling Nest - 90 - 1st Evo, when completed start +1 Carapace @ Hatch Completes -Spine @ nat -Queen @ nat @ 10 Drones in your nat - Take gas at your nat @ Full sat at both bases - Start Lair - Start mass producing lings @ 1st Evo complete - Start second Evo, when completed +1 Attack @ Lair complete - Take 3rd - Get 3rd and 4th gas @ main/nat - Drop spire @ 100% Carapace - Produce drones for 3rd, start to bank Mins/Gas/Larva for huge Muta switch - Start to move across the map, wait for +1 Attack to finish and engage. Then blah blah muta wars blah blah. Sorry if it was hard to follow, first time writing out a B/O | ||
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kotsosh
12 Posts
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On September 25 2013 00:10 Zheryn wrote: I'm so horrible at this game. I just lost vs a proxy 2gate when I scouted it at 9 supply. I just went for 13 pool 12 gas and assumed he wouldn't be able to do anything, but he just gets his units out so fast :D http://drop.sc/360407 Now to my question: If you (as I did this game) see his probe after making your 9 supply overlord, what build do you go for to hardcounter it? Sorry can't watch rep, at work =/ It's been awhile, but I remember holding this off going hatch-1st (maybe the person was just bad). Basically though, do NOT get gas. You're not going to be able to do anything with it anyway. 14pool is fine. If you can, start a hatch if nothing else but to buy you time, and if it finishes (i.e. he goes for main), that's a boost to your ling production. Once pool finishes, get a queen and start building 2-3 spines. (If you don't build a hatch, you should be able to afford like 4 spines). Cancel them as they start getting attacked, and reform them, to buy time for your lings/queen. After that, the rest is pretty much up to micro. If 1-2 spines finish with ling/queen support, you should be in good shape. One important thing with cheese is not to underestimate it. Just because you see it doesn't mean you can just BO counter it; it still requires a lot of multitasking and micro to get through ahead. I'll try to watch the replay after work, but my guess is your biggest mistake was going for gas. | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
On September 25 2013 06:33 Defenestrator wrote: Sorry can't watch rep, at work =/ It's been awhile, but I remember holding this off going hatch-1st (maybe the person was just bad). Basically though, do NOT get gas. You're not going to be able to do anything with it anyway. 14pool is fine. If you can, start a hatch if nothing else but to buy you time, and if it finishes (i.e. he goes for main), that's a boost to your ling production. Once pool finishes, get a queen and start building 2-3 spines. (If you don't build a hatch, you should be able to afford like 4 spines). Cancel them as they start getting attacked, and reform them, to buy time for your lings/queen. After that, the rest is pretty much up to micro. If 1-2 spines finish with ling/queen support, you should be in good shape. One important thing with cheese is not to underestimate it. Just because you see it doesn't mean you can just BO counter it; it still requires a lot of multitasking and micro to get through ahead. I'll try to watch the replay after work, but my guess is your biggest mistake was going for gas. Thanks for the response. My biggest mistake was probably underestimating it since I thought I would win easy since I scouted it and went for an early pool, and then I micro'd pretty much as bad as possible when I was a bit shocked about how quick the zealots came in. I tried some vs AI now and if I scout it that early in the future I think I will go for a 12 pool, 14 overlord and then save larva for lings, should be pretty much "hard counter" I think. I've had so varying experiences with proxy 2 gate, even holding it with hatchery first sometime, so I've been very confused about it and never really learned a proper response. I haven't been sure if I should try to drone drill / attack with my drones, but I guess I should just focus on trying to keep them away from the zealots while trying to get lings and a spine up? | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On September 25 2013 07:24 Zheryn wrote: Thanks for the response. My biggest mistake was probably underestimating it since I thought I would win easy since I scouted it and went for an early pool, and then I micro'd pretty much as bad as possible when I was a bit shocked about how quick the zealots came in. I tried some vs AI now and if I scout it that early in the future I think I will go for a 12 pool, 14 overlord and then save larva for lings, should be pretty much "hard counter" I think. I've had so varying experiences with proxy 2 gate, even holding it with hatchery first sometime, so I've been very confused about it and never really learned a proper response. I haven't been sure if I should try to drone drill / attack with my drones, but I guess I should just focus on trying to keep them away from the zealots while trying to get lings and a spine up? My priority is to get a spine or 2 up, because spines are really good vs zeals. Make sure the spines cover your mineral line. Behind your mineral line in between some mineral patches is a good spot because that also minimizes surface area that the zeals can hit the spine. I don't think it's wise to attack with drones; just focus on keeping them alive while buying time. If you're building 3 spines simultaneously it's pretty tough to stop with the initial zealots. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On September 25 2013 00:10 Zheryn wrote: I'm so horrible at this game. I just lost vs a proxy 2gate when I scouted it at 9 supply. I just went for 13 pool 12 gas and assumed he wouldn't be able to do anything, but he just gets his units out so fast :D http://drop.sc/360407 Now to my question: If you (as I did this game) see his probe after making your 9 supply overlord, what build do you go for to hardcounter it? Watched the rep... since you basically knew he was going to proxy you in your base, in this situation I would pull like 4-6 drones and just try to deny the pylon/gates from going down. I don't think he could get the pylon down in this situation if you had 4-5 drones attacking it, and once the pylon is down it's gg =) If he does spawn zeals in your base like this (and you don't spot it), this is pretty hard to hold without an early pool. Still, building an early spine should help out enormously; lings aren't very good vs zeals. | ||
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TAMinator
Australia2706 Posts
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Destruktor
Spain60 Posts
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
On September 25 2013 22:47 Destruktor wrote: Hey guys! I'm having many problems vs Terran standard +1/+1 pressure into +2/+2 push. I'm doing standard 4 Queen opening, taking my 6:00 third base and I try to saturate my 3 bases before to make army but when Terran begins to pressure me I don't have enough army. When is the usual timing to cut drone production to make army? Maybe at minute 10:00? or when I saturate my third? Thanks in advanced. I love this question: you say your timings and your enemy timings so I know exactly your problem. I think you're losing to a +1/+1 2 base ~10:00, not standard 3cc +1/+1 pressure at around 11:30ish. You're doing everything right, well maybe not because youre still losing  . You want to sacrifice your overlord intot their main + a few lings at the front door to scout at around 6:00 - 7:00. If you see a 3rd cc, youre safe. If you see 2 extra rax (3 in total by 6:00), gget ready to hold a 1/1 all in/aggression. If you see a fast starport, get ready for drops/banshees and make a spore per base. the fast armory/starport can be indicative of this 10:00 1/1 2 base timing. To hold this, I go ling/bane/roach, getting 1/1 if it will finish in time for the all in/ a bit after.But if you see 3cc dont overdrone. A smart terran will dive your third if you overdrone, so you need a few speedlings to pressure the hellions off creep. If he loses the hellions before 12:00Ish, deny his third. So there, get some drones, and get quite a few lings, enough to scare him off your creep. 4 queen vs reaper is a bit greedy. If you scout reaper, consider going for that fast speed and pull off drones from gas at speed. If you skip speed vs someone who opens reapers, the 6 reaper + 2 hellion force is scary because of the lack of speed. If they skip reapers just go for that 4 queen opener with even a faster than 6:00 3rd base. On September 25 2013 04:39 kotsosh wrote: Is it possible to beat muta/ling/bling with roach/hydra/infestor? I really dislike mutas in ZvZ but are mutas the only way? Ive answered this a lot. Defend your third with roach+spore+some banes, at around 130-150ish supply, get around 7 infestors (more or less) and make the rest hydras. Engage in chokepoints and go for a 200/200 push against him, most likely with your 2/2. He cant engage you in chokes because he will get less SA (surface area) and his units will clump up, perfect for your infestors. Have your roaches tank for the hydras as the hydras kill shit. Split your hydras if you have enough room to deny baneling hits. 3 things should happen: 1. You kill his army. Go finish the game, but beware because he can remax quickly, so still walk in chokes (if possible). 2. You kill his ground army. Go kill as many bases as you can with the remaiig roaches, burrow infestors back home and remax your army. 3. You lose the engagements because of lack of good fungals and he connects with banelings. You will usualy lose the game. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On September 24 2013 11:05 11B wrote: My suggestion is to grab an evo chamber pre 6:00 and start +1 carapace before you start your Lair and go heavy on Lings. You should be able to grab your own early 3rd while denying his......and then all you need to do is stop his initial Roach push with good surrounds. That should buy you time to get Muta out and then power drone your 3rd. Doesn't always work but in theory its a nice counter. I've actually decided to try this out on the ladder a few times. I haven't figured out how to resist the urge to cheese with it on +1 carapace ling Allins. They are really good. | ||
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NiDoXiD
Germany28 Posts
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
On September 27 2013 04:40 NiDoXiD wrote: What are the best gas-timings if you go for swarmhost in zvp? (if the toss starts with air, i want to play a few hydras into swarmhost too) This question is way too general to answer specifically so I'll make some assumptions Assumptions about the protoss build -the protoss player forge fast expanded -you see the protoss start his third/know he will be taking a third soon Assumptions about zerg build -standard 3 hatch opener taking first gases at 6:00 (should be around 44 supply at this time) -scouted no early gateway pressure so Lair was taking after first 100 g Standardly most ppl will take their 3+4 gas shortly after starting lair. As far as 5+6 gases go its safest not to take them until you see a protoss third or know he will take one soon. If you can verify this just go up to 6 gas, start your forth and get the tech rolling that you desire. There is really no "right" way to do it as long as you are opening normally and scouting thoroughly. | ||
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