Also, another ZvZ question, if the opponent switches into Swarm Hosts, am I also forced to make my own swarm hosts to combat his, or is there a way i can go about combating them?
In ZvZ Swarm Hosts are often used to kill the opponent in the late game as it is difficult to counter it. The way I counter it is to just make zergling and muta, this forces him to not make any more swarm hosts as they are extremely immobile and you can kill their economy as they are walking between bases to catch you. Then you kill the swarm hosts with muta as they slowly march across the map. However you will need to wall off your 3rd and 4th and have static defences to help keep all the locust at bay while you kill their economy, if you can do enough damage then kill off all the swarm hosts they will not be able to rebuild due to their high costs.
On October 04 2013 21:32 Tannex wrote: Hey guys, I've been playing some Zerg recently and I have been having some troubles ZvZ. I like to open up with a gasless into roach ZvZ
And I've been having some issues against muta openings, as I find they tend to pin me onto two bases for much longer then I am comfortable with. So I was wondering if this build is just weak against mutas or if I am missing something in my execution. If it is possible, I would love some general advice at securing a third against mutas, but I can post a replay or two at request, if it is needed. ^_^
Also, another ZvZ question, if the opponent switches into Swarm Hosts, am I also forced to make my own swarm hosts to combat his, or is there a way i can go about combating them?
to your first question: let an overlord hover above your 3rd base. your overseers will scout his spire building. after that just let ovi poop creep and build 2 spores there with some roaches vs lings. should be enough to let you secure a decently fast 3rd while behind very ahead in upgrades.
to your second question: it depens on his supporting army. if its a SH rush something like roach bane (vs light locusts) owns him very hard. or mutas are also a good choice if he has ling SH only. vs roach hydra into SHs i feel you pretty much have to also go SHs, especially after opening roaches yourself (maybe with ling bane muta into ultra bane infestor ling you can play without SHs vs SHs).
On October 04 2013 21:32 Tannex wrote: Hey guys, I've been playing some Zerg recently and I have been having some troubles ZvZ. I like to open up with a gasless into roach ZvZ
And I've been having some issues against muta openings, as I find they tend to pin me onto two bases for much longer then I am comfortable with. So I was wondering if this build is just weak against mutas or if I am missing something in my execution. If it is possible, I would love some general advice at securing a third against mutas, but I can post a replay or two at request, if it is needed. ^_^
Also, another ZvZ question, if the opponent switches into Swarm Hosts, am I also forced to make my own swarm hosts to combat his, or is there a way i can go about combating them?
If you are actually following the build, your third should be up well before mutas make an appearance. My guess would be that you built your wall or built roaches too early. Putting up a replay is probably a good idea.
On October 04 2013 21:32 Tannex wrote: Hey guys, I've been playing some Zerg recently and I have been having some troubles ZvZ. I like to open up with a gasless into roach ZvZ
And I've been having some issues against muta openings, as I find they tend to pin me onto two bases for much longer then I am comfortable with. So I was wondering if this build is just weak against mutas or if I am missing something in my execution. If it is possible, I would love some general advice at securing a third against mutas, but I can post a replay or two at request, if it is needed. ^_^
Also, another ZvZ question, if the opponent switches into Swarm Hosts, am I also forced to make my own swarm hosts to combat his, or is there a way i can go about combating them?
If you are actually following the build, your third should be up well before mutas make an appearance. My guess would be that you built your wall or built roaches too early. Putting up a replay is probably a good idea.
It could be down to his macro, such as injects. If he is not able to get his injects off correctly it will delay his build. I have not actually seen the build order so I'm not sure how hard it is to execute but that would most likely be the main reason for him being delayed.
On October 04 2013 21:32 Tannex wrote: Hey guys, I've been playing some Zerg recently and I have been having some troubles ZvZ. I like to open up with a gasless into roach ZvZ
And I've been having some issues against muta openings, as I find they tend to pin me onto two bases for much longer then I am comfortable with. So I was wondering if this build is just weak against mutas or if I am missing something in my execution. If it is possible, I would love some general advice at securing a third against mutas, but I can post a replay or two at request, if it is needed. ^_^
Also, another ZvZ question, if the opponent switches into Swarm Hosts, am I also forced to make my own swarm hosts to combat his, or is there a way i can go about combating them?
If you are actually following the build, your third should be up well before mutas make an appearance. My guess would be that you built your wall or built roaches too early. Putting up a replay is probably a good idea.
It could be down to his macro, such as injects. If he is not able to get his injects off correctly it will delay his build. I have not actually seen the build order so I'm not sure how hard it is to execute but that would most likely be the main reason for him being delayed.
I actually think the Easiest way to mess up that build order would be to build roaches too early. This is one of those builds where you will build a roach warren but not build roaches that early unless needed to defend an attack. If you needlessly build 8 roaches early on just to feel safe, not only do you have 8 fewer drones but your 1/1 upgrades and third are significantly delayed.
On October 04 2013 21:32 Tannex wrote: Hey guys, I've been playing some Zerg recently and I have been having some troubles ZvZ. I like to open up with a gasless into roach ZvZ
And I've been having some issues against muta openings, as I find they tend to pin me onto two bases for much longer then I am comfortable with. So I was wondering if this build is just weak against mutas or if I am missing something in my execution. If it is possible, I would love some general advice at securing a third against mutas, but I can post a replay or two at request, if it is needed. ^_^
Also, another ZvZ question, if the opponent switches into Swarm Hosts, am I also forced to make my own swarm hosts to combat his, or is there a way i can go about combating them?
If you are actually following the build, your third should be up well before mutas make an appearance. My guess would be that you built your wall or built roaches too early. Putting up a replay is probably a good idea.
It could be down to his macro, such as injects. If he is not able to get his injects off correctly it will delay his build. I have not actually seen the build order so I'm not sure how hard it is to execute but that would most likely be the main reason for him being delayed.
I actually think the Easiest way to mess up that build order would be to build roaches too early. This is one of those builds where you will build a roach warren but not build roaches that early unless needed to defend an attack. If you needlessly build 8 roaches early on just to feel safe, not only do you have 8 fewer drones but your 1/1 upgrades and third are significantly delayed.
I understand now, however in that case if he feels unsafe he should just build 2 sets of lings and scout with them including taking the xel'naga and have one outside his opponents base to see if he is moving out
On October 04 2013 21:32 Tannex wrote: Hey guys, I've been playing some Zerg recently and I have been having some troubles ZvZ. I like to open up with a gasless into roach ZvZ
And I've been having some issues against muta openings, as I find they tend to pin me onto two bases for much longer then I am comfortable with. So I was wondering if this build is just weak against mutas or if I am missing something in my execution. If it is possible, I would love some general advice at securing a third against mutas, but I can post a replay or two at request, if it is needed. ^_^
Also, another ZvZ question, if the opponent switches into Swarm Hosts, am I also forced to make my own swarm hosts to combat his, or is there a way i can go about combating them?
If you are actually following the build, your third should be up well before mutas make an appearance. My guess would be that you built your wall or built roaches too early. Putting up a replay is probably a good idea.
Yeah I just looked over the replay again and realized how much I've been fucking up the build. I've been getting too early of a wall and gas, thus delaying everything else. I can still post a replay or two if you want though. ^_^
On October 04 2013 21:32 Tannex wrote: Hey guys, I've been playing some Zerg recently and I have been having some troubles ZvZ. I like to open up with a gasless into roach ZvZ
And I've been having some issues against muta openings, as I find they tend to pin me onto two bases for much longer then I am comfortable with. So I was wondering if this build is just weak against mutas or if I am missing something in my execution. If it is possible, I would love some general advice at securing a third against mutas, but I can post a replay or two at request, if it is needed. ^_^
Also, another ZvZ question, if the opponent switches into Swarm Hosts, am I also forced to make my own swarm hosts to combat his, or is there a way i can go about combating them?
to your first question: let an overlord hover above your 3rd base. your overseers will scout his spire building. after that just let ovi poop creep and build 2 spores there with some roaches vs lings. should be enough to let you secure a decently fast 3rd while behind very ahead in upgrades.
to your second question: it depens on his supporting army. if its a SH rush something like roach bane (vs light locusts) owns him very hard. or mutas are also a good choice if he has ling SH only. vs roach hydra into SHs i feel you pretty much have to also go SHs, especially after opening roaches yourself (maybe with ling bane muta into ultra bane infestor ling you can play without SHs vs SHs).
Ok, that's what it felt like in my games, thanks for the confirmation. :D
On October 04 2013 21:32 Tannex wrote: Hey guys, I've been playing some Zerg recently and I have been having some troubles ZvZ. I like to open up with a gasless into roach ZvZ
And I've been having some issues against muta openings, as I find they tend to pin me onto two bases for much longer then I am comfortable with. So I was wondering if this build is just weak against mutas or if I am missing something in my execution. If it is possible, I would love some general advice at securing a third against mutas, but I can post a replay or two at request, if it is needed. ^_^
Also, another ZvZ question, if the opponent switches into Swarm Hosts, am I also forced to make my own swarm hosts to combat his, or is there a way i can go about combating them?
If you are actually following the build, your third should be up well before mutas make an appearance. My guess would be that you built your wall or built roaches too early. Putting up a replay is probably a good idea.
Yeah I just looked over the replay again and realized how much I've been fucking up the build. I've been getting too early of a wall and gas, thus delaying everything else. I can still post a replay or two if you want though. ^_^
On October 04 2013 21:32 Tannex wrote: Hey guys, I've been playing some Zerg recently and I have been having some troubles ZvZ. I like to open up with a gasless into roach ZvZ
And I've been having some issues against muta openings, as I find they tend to pin me onto two bases for much longer then I am comfortable with. So I was wondering if this build is just weak against mutas or if I am missing something in my execution. If it is possible, I would love some general advice at securing a third against mutas, but I can post a replay or two at request, if it is needed. ^_^
Also, another ZvZ question, if the opponent switches into Swarm Hosts, am I also forced to make my own swarm hosts to combat his, or is there a way i can go about combating them?
to your first question: let an overlord hover above your 3rd base. your overseers will scout his spire building. after that just let ovi poop creep and build 2 spores there with some roaches vs lings. should be enough to let you secure a decently fast 3rd while behind very ahead in upgrades.
to your second question: it depens on his supporting army. if its a SH rush something like roach bane (vs light locusts) owns him very hard. or mutas are also a good choice if he has ling SH only. vs roach hydra into SHs i feel you pretty much have to also go SHs, especially after opening roaches yourself (maybe with ling bane muta into ultra bane infestor ling you can play without SHs vs SHs).
Ok, that's what it felt like in my games, thanks for the confirmation. :D
If you do decide to post some replays it would be very helpful in seeing what you did wrong and what you could improve on, in the future i suggest posting a replay with every question you have if you have a replay available.
I like to do Scarlet's style with 2 base ling upgrades into quick 3 base quick hive ultra queen infestor ling comp.
I often get pushed into opening quick 3 hatch when my starting overlord scouts a forge fast expand or nexus first into FFE.
My game plan is to semi-all-in on my opponents third. How many drones do I get?
Here's my general build order: 15 - Pool 16 - Hatch 15 - Queen 21 - Third Hatch 20 - 2nd Queen build 3rd queen out of 3rd hatch when complete drone up 5:45 double gas at nat 6:30 roach warren 7:00 lair/evo/2x gas main 7:20 speed +1 Range when can Hydra den and roach speed at lair build hydra lings and maybe some roaches and go cancel third.
I feel like I always build too many drones or my hydras get there late or something, I just always seems super weak/late of a push on his third.
On October 06 2013 11:34 VurnHat wrote: I like to do Scarlet's style with 2 base ling upgrades into quick 3 base quick hive ultra queen infestor ling comp.
I often get pushed into opening quick 3 hatch when my starting overlord scouts a forge fast expand or nexus first into FFE.
My game plan is to semi-all-in on my opponents third. How many drones do I get?
Here's my general build order: 15 - Pool 16 - Hatch 15 - Queen 21 - Third Hatch 20 - 2nd Queen build 3rd queen out of 3rd hatch when complete drone up 5:45 double gas at nat 6:30 roach warren 7:00 lair/evo/2x gas main 7:20 speed +1 Range when can Hydra den and roach speed at lair build hydra lings and maybe some roaches and go cancel third.
I feel like I always build too many drones or my hydras get there late or something, I just always seems super weak/late of a push on his third.
Thanks!
The amount of drones you create depends on if you want the attack to be more powerful and do more damage (more risk though) or have a high economy and the attack to either be later or weaker. To know which one to do depends on if your opponent is playing greedy of safe. If you were against someone who has loads of cannons at his natural and a large zealot sentry force you would want the attack to come in much later as you wont be able to damage him, so you need to get economy. This is where you drone up 3 bases then attack, you can have a small ling force out on the map to see if he moves out and counter his third with it or natural if you can get in. However if the player is just being very greedy then you want the attack to come in early, so just drone up those 2 bases without fully saturated second and then attack with a large force early on to do alot of damage to him. If you need any more explaining just ask, i cant go into much detail as im in college right now and have to do my work
On October 04 2013 21:32 Tannex wrote: Hey guys, I've been playing some Zerg recently and I have been having some troubles ZvZ. I like to open up with a gasless into roach ZvZ
And I've been having some issues against muta openings, as I find they tend to pin me onto two bases for much longer then I am comfortable with. So I was wondering if this build is just weak against mutas or if I am missing something in my execution. If it is possible, I would love some general advice at securing a third against mutas, but I can post a replay or two at request, if it is needed. ^_^
Also, another ZvZ question, if the opponent switches into Swarm Hosts, am I also forced to make my own swarm hosts to combat his, or is there a way i can go about combating them?
The biggest weakness of gasless opening is there is no way you can really abuse a zerg who wants to go muta (the zerg going muta should be playing as greedy as you, skipping spine, pure drones with maybe a few lings to deny a third). Personally I think gasless is very weak versus a muta opening, but to secure a third try to take it somewhat greedily (you want your third down right as spire is started, earlier if possible).
Get some roaches out and make sure to block off the natural with evo/warren + queens so that he can't ling runby while having units at the third. (having an overlord spewing creep at third can be good to so that you can get spores down if his mutas pop out before it's finished).
For 2nd question you kind of have to go swarmhosts yourself or just try to go into a base trade situation. Going muta/swarmhost is strong versus a roach/swarmhost player and I would recommend getting mutas (if he doesn't have them already).
On October 06 2013 11:34 VurnHat wrote: I like to do Scarlet's style with 2 base ling upgrades into quick 3 base quick hive ultra queen infestor ling comp.
I often get pushed into opening quick 3 hatch when my starting overlord scouts a forge fast expand or nexus first into FFE.
My game plan is to semi-all-in on my opponents third. How many drones do I get?
Here's my general build order: 15 - Pool 16 - Hatch 15 - Queen 21 - Third Hatch 20 - 2nd Queen build 3rd queen out of 3rd hatch when complete drone up 5:45 double gas at nat 6:30 roach warren 7:00 lair/evo/2x gas main 7:20 speed +1 Range when can Hydra den and roach speed at lair build hydra lings and maybe some roaches and go cancel third.
I feel like I always build too many drones or my hydras get there late or something, I just always seems super weak/late of a push on his third.
Thanks!
The amount of drones you create depends on if you want the attack to be more powerful and do more damage (more risk though) or have a high economy and the attack to either be later or weaker. To know which one to do depends on if your opponent is playing greedy of safe. If you were against someone who has loads of cannons at his natural and a large zealot sentry force you would want the attack to come in much later as you wont be able to damage him, so you need to get economy. This is where you drone up 3 bases then attack, you can have a small ling force out on the map to see if he moves out and counter his third with it or natural if you can get in. However if the player is just being very greedy then you want the attack to come in early, so just drone up those 2 bases without fully saturated second and then attack with a large force early on to do alot of damage to him. If you need any more explaining just ask, i cant go into much detail as im in college right now and have to do my work
I get that if he takes a defensive third or quick greedy third, i either fully drone my third and hit his third late/harder or drone half my third and hit fast/weaker. I am only high plat league though so even though I am able to understand RTS game theory and know that it is valuable to adjust against your opponent, my game lacks elsewhere when I try to do too much scouting and my macro falls apart.
So, I would like to know, hypothetically lets say we get a very average greed scout on our opponent. He goes the most standard gate expand build, after core adds 2 more gates and a stargate/robo, takes all four gasses at main/nat so he isn't doing a two base timing, then takes his third at around 9 minutes. If this is the case, and I opened quick 3 hatch into 5:45 min double gas quick lair into ling/hydra/roach semi-all-in on his third (must cancel or lose), what time do i take my 3rd and 4th (and 5th?) gas and how many drones do I build until I start to build my hydra's then lings to rally after?
Typically I would do 1st/2nd gas at 5:45, lair at 6:45, then speed and 3rd/4th gasses at 7, plus 1 ranged attack after next 100 gas, then stop droning once i get main and natural minerals and 4 gasses saturated, and 8 drones at 3rd base. Then hydras rallied with lings behind. Anyone have a replay of this hydra ling 3rd all in?
I just played a frustrating zvp on akilon where my opponent opened with 3 stargates and massed void rays off two bases with tons of cannons in the natural, eventually taking a late 3rd and very late 4th. I had a massive economy and hydra queen infestor. I would have easily won a straight up fight but he kept flying in, sniping a base, and flying back over air. I'm sure there's a good way to beat that because I've never seen a pro do that, but I didn't know how to beat it. I'm platinum btw.
On October 08 2013 13:01 schwza wrote: I just played a frustrating zvp on akilon where my opponent opened with 3 stargates and massed void rays off two bases with tons of cannons in the natural, eventually taking a late 3rd and very late 4th. I had a massive economy and hydra queen infestor. I would have easily won a straight up fight but he kept flying in, sniping a base, and flying back over air. I'm sure there's a good way to beat that because I've never seen a pro do that, but I didn't know how to beat it. I'm platinum btw.
Soulkey 3 base double spire mass muta
Or
Swarmhost sieging + mass hydras and when you expand, always be prepared versus voidray runbys.
On October 06 2013 11:34 VurnHat wrote: I like to do Scarlet's style with 2 base ling upgrades into quick 3 base quick hive ultra queen infestor ling comp.
I often get pushed into opening quick 3 hatch when my starting overlord scouts a forge fast expand or nexus first into FFE.
My game plan is to semi-all-in on my opponents third. How many drones do I get?
Here's my general build order: 15 - Pool 16 - Hatch 15 - Queen 21 - Third Hatch 20 - 2nd Queen build 3rd queen out of 3rd hatch when complete drone up 5:45 double gas at nat 6:30 roach warren 7:00 lair/evo/2x gas main 7:20 speed +1 Range when can Hydra den and roach speed at lair build hydra lings and maybe some roaches and go cancel third.
I feel like I always build too many drones or my hydras get there late or something, I just always seems super weak/late of a push on his third.
Thanks!
The amount of drones you create depends on if you want the attack to be more powerful and do more damage (more risk though) or have a high economy and the attack to either be later or weaker. To know which one to do depends on if your opponent is playing greedy of safe. If you were against someone who has loads of cannons at his natural and a large zealot sentry force you would want the attack to come in much later as you wont be able to damage him, so you need to get economy. This is where you drone up 3 bases then attack, you can have a small ling force out on the map to see if he moves out and counter his third with it or natural if you can get in. However if the player is just being very greedy then you want the attack to come in early, so just drone up those 2 bases without fully saturated second and then attack with a large force early on to do alot of damage to him. If you need any more explaining just ask, i cant go into much detail as im in college right now and have to do my work
I get that if he takes a defensive third or quick greedy third, i either fully drone my third and hit his third late/harder or drone half my third and hit fast/weaker. I am only high plat league though so even though I am able to understand RTS game theory and know that it is valuable to adjust against your opponent, my game lacks elsewhere when I try to do too much scouting and my macro falls apart.
So, I would like to know, hypothetically lets say we get a very average greed scout on our opponent. He goes the most standard gate expand build, after core adds 2 more gates and a stargate/robo, takes all four gasses at main/nat so he isn't doing a two base timing, then takes his third at around 9 minutes. If this is the case, and I opened quick 3 hatch into 5:45 min double gas quick lair into ling/hydra/roach semi-all-in on his third (must cancel or lose), what time do i take my 3rd and 4th (and 5th?) gas and how many drones do I build until I start to build my hydra's then lings to rally after?
Typically I would do 1st/2nd gas at 5:45, lair at 6:45, then speed and 3rd/4th gasses at 7, plus 1 ranged attack after next 100 gas, then stop droning once i get main and natural minerals and 4 gasses saturated, and 8 drones at 3rd base. Then hydras rallied with lings behind. Anyone have a replay of this hydra ling 3rd all in?
if you are able to drone without any pressure at all you can take your 3rd-4rd gas after starting the lair (7min) and the 5rd gas right when you are about to be fully saturated on the 3 bases (8min). you can take your 6rd gas a minute or 2 later, depending on how heavy you want to be on the hydras and if you want to switch to mutas after the push. heres a vod of scarlett doing the build: scarlett vs puck
Are there any general rules of thumb for not getting supply blocked? Something like, for each round of drones or units, build 2 overlords? Or, do I just need to pay more attention to my supply? I'm in Silver league and I'd like to develop good habits now.
zvp 3base before pool: i guess this has been discussed a lot but i dont find the right answer to my question. so how to follow up after 18 hatch? usually i did this: 10-scout 15-hatch 18-hatch 18-overlord 18-pool till i lost my 3rd to a zealot, stalker and msc after gate expand. is this too much greed? am i supposed to follow up with 17pool after 18hatch to have my first two queens out earlier and able to produce some lings?
On October 09 2013 20:55 iPhoneAppz wrote: Are there any general rules of thumb for not getting supply blocked? Something like, for each round of drones or units, build 2 overlords? Or, do I just need to pay more attention to my supply? I'm in Silver league and I'd like to develop good habits now.
Thanks!
Hi! I'm only plat. and any master can respond better but I usually make until 44/44 pop about memory, I mean 16 over, 24,32 and stuff and then I try to make overs in pairs during mid game. On late game I have a lot of minerals and I make a lot of overs since 150 to 200.
On October 09 2013 20:55 iPhoneAppz wrote: Are there any general rules of thumb for not getting supply blocked? Something like, for each round of drones or units, build 2 overlords? Or, do I just need to pay more attention to my supply? I'm in Silver league and I'd like to develop good habits now.
Thanks!
Hi! I'm only plat. and any master can respond better but I usually make until 44/44 pop about memory, I mean 16 over, 24,32 and stuff and then I try to make overs in pairs during mid game. On late game I have a lot of minerals and I make a lot of overs since 150 to 200.
On October 09 2013 21:12 Terence Chill wrote: zvp 3base before pool: i guess this has been discussed a lot but i dont find the right answer to my question. so how to follow up after 18 hatch? usually i did this: 10-scout 15-hatch 18-hatch 18-overlord 18-pool till i lost my 3rd to a zealot, stalker and msc after gate expand. is this too much greed? am i supposed to follow up with 17pool after 18hatch to have my first two queens out earlier and able to produce some lings?
Until you get to high high diamond or masters, I recommend drone scouting always on ladder, especialy vs toss to see if its a gateway expo or forge fast expo. Vs a gateway expand, you are safe to hatch first (its its fine if you didnt and you made your pool already; if you dont scout in time for the GE, go pool first), take your gas asap after 15 supply versus gateway expand, mine 100 gas, get speed and pull drones off gas. Around....4:30-ish (correct me if im wrong) take your third and if you see him moveout make a few pairs of lings to be able to combat him. Target MSC with queen and have your lings kill shit. Scout for 4 gate or 3 gate stargate aggression follow up, respond accurately (lings, kill pylons) and transition into the midgame with a lair at 7:10~ish if everything is normal.
Just a question; vs a gateway expand, when do I take additional gasses and my roach warren?
EPT
