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Terence Chill
Germany112 Posts
i just wanted to know if 18-ol 18-pool is an autoloss of my 3rd hatch because of the mentioned scenario, or if i should be able to hold it even with that late pool. the zealot was built normaly, the stalker was chronoed and the msc, i dont know, i guess chrono too(?) did not check in the replay. i am a master player and i do dronescout vP too just because i like to play as greedy as possible. | ||
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
15-hatch 18-hatch 18-overlord 18-pool I didnt notice you mentioned a 3 hatch before pool, lol my bad. If youre doing that, maybe try the CatZ 4hatch where you get another 4th hatch inbetween your nat and 3rd. Im not sure if it works vs GE though. But uhh...That kind of pressure with the zealot + stalker + MSC, im going to say slowlings work to defend it, but I can easily see someone 4gating you because you dont have speed. Until you get creep spread at your third, youre going to have a hell time. What I see happening is he kills a lot of your lings before your creep at your third gets up (It may get up fast though; im not sure how fast), youre behind because of all the lings you had to make, and then he 4gates you. Im just going to say, try the catz 4 hatch style so you have the creep spread which allows you to get your queens inbetween bases to defend well. | ||
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iggym
United States49 Posts
Terence, I think you can hold that on most maps, since it seems like the queens should be pretty close to done and it takes a long time for that to whack away at a completed hatch, but I don't have any experience with it. That said, I'm not sure overlord before pool has any real benefit. With 18 hatch, 18 pool, 18 overlord, the nat hatch pops very shortly after you build the overlord, so you're not supply blocked. | ||
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Terence Chill
Germany112 Posts
like how to hold a cannon rush if the protoss decides to go immediatly forge and cannons the 3rd, and how to hold a 1base 4gate. wasn´t there a Q/A zerg thread were progammers would answer such things? | ||
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b0ub0u
Canada445 Posts
On October 10 2013 04:35 Terence Chill wrote: yeah, i figured that out too. 18 overlord after pool is fast enough. but there are still some unanswered eventualities. like how to hold a cannon rush if the protoss decides to go immediatly forge and cannons the 3rd, and how to hold a 1base 4gate. wasn´t there a Q/A zerg thread were progammers would answer such things? That would be this thread : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=401091 But it`s been a while since anybody posted there. | ||
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Diddywhop
United States42 Posts
I have been playing this game on and off since its release. I've never really put much effort into learning build orders or timings. But, I want to enjoy the game more and feel more confident in my play. I play masters quite often on ladder and I always feel outclassed. My biggest issue is floating minerals. I think its mostly because my gas timings are awful. Is there anyone who can give me a general understanding on when to take your gas with a standard opening against each matchup. I usually play completely reactive, but I find that only works for me against Diamond players, its like my builds are too loose. How much will having a solid build order help in regards to breaking that diamond barrier and heading into master? Injects, I've tried base cam for a while but if I have a macro hatch or over 3 bases it just screws me more than it helps? Any tips there? Thanks! | ||
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Kambing
United States1176 Posts
On October 11 2013 01:54 Diddywhop wrote: Diamond Zerg here. I have been playing this game on and off since its release. I've never really put much effort into learning build orders or timings. But, I want to enjoy the game more and feel more confident in my play. I play masters quite often on ladder and I always feel outclassed. My biggest issue is floating minerals. I think its mostly because my gas timings are awful. Is there anyone who can give me a general understanding on when to take your gas with a standard opening against each matchup. I usually play completely reactive, but I find that only works for me against Diamond players, its like my builds are too loose. How much will having a solid build order help in regards to breaking that diamond barrier and heading into master? Injects, I've tried base cam for a while but if I have a macro hatch or over 3 bases it just screws me more than it helps? Any tips there? Thanks! Build orders directly solve the problem of floating resources. The second look at Zerg strategy guide has a collection of openers and mid-game orders that will help tighten your play: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=428262 | ||
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Diddywhop
United States42 Posts
On October 11 2013 02:45 Kambing wrote: Build orders directly solve the problem of floating resources. The second look at Zerg strategy guide has a collection of openers and mid-game orders that will help tighten your play: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=428262 Thank you very much!! Any input on the inject thing?? | ||
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Incand
143 Posts
On October 11 2013 01:54 Diddywhop wrote: Diamond Zerg here. I have been playing this game on and off since its release. I've never really put much effort into learning build orders or timings. But, I want to enjoy the game more and feel more confident in my play. I play masters quite often on ladder and I always feel outclassed. My biggest issue is floating minerals. I think its mostly because my gas timings are awful. Is there anyone who can give me a general understanding on when to take your gas with a standard opening against each matchup. I usually play completely reactive, but I find that only works for me against Diamond players, its like my builds are too loose. How much will having a solid build order help in regards to breaking that diamond barrier and heading into master? Injects, I've tried base cam for a while but if I have a macro hatch or over 3 bases it just screws me more than it helps? Any tips there? Thanks! For me the way improved was doing a build and hitting benchmarks all the way from bronze to master so for me that were superimportant. you obviously found your way to diamond not paying much attention to them so theyre not the only way. but regardless if you have build by supply or not you probably have an idea of when to do what which may be good enough or possibly the reason that holds you back. it's hard to tell. copying a build exactly from a pro isn't something i found all to useful but i rather copy the general outline and then perfect it myself. After a few games of doing that i can tell that making gases at those times worked out well so i continue doing it. It also depends a lot on matchups as in some you have to react earlier then not. For example in zvp i got it mapped out up to 70 supply while exactly while in zvt i only have approximate gas and third timing and in zvz i got nothing except my start as to when to get pool hatch first gas. The standard gas timings I use are vs a ffe toss 44 supply ~5.50-6:00 and the next two when i hit 70/70 ~7.05-7.20 against gateexpands just take a gas as fast as you see its not a ffe and then i usually add more gases when im saturated on 2 base. vs terran i take double gas at 5:30 and then another 2 when i start speed. this would be the same if you like playing roach hydra also but that you made lair instead of speed. Some like to get an earlier gas for which is also fine and instead delay the next to gases a little. in zvz i go muta and get first gas directly after pool hatch and the next 3 when i start lair after speed & banenest. If you open roach you probably delay them a while longer. As for injecting everyone got their own method but I really recommend using the camera hotkeys. there's so many added benefits to it and no downsides. I rebound mine to f1-6 and the set camera to shift+f1-6 (easier to reach then ctrl) and it improved my game so much. it took a weak of painful getting used to but really worth it. so when i inject i just go f1->box queen-> inject. you can also group the queens if you prefer that. | ||
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Kambing
United States1176 Posts
On October 11 2013 02:48 Diddywhop wrote: Thank you very much!! Any input on the inject thing?? Largely personal preference. Some pros use backspace inject (e.g., TLO), most koreans use 1 hatch-per-hotkey. Largely problems with injects revolve around simply remembering to inject which is, for the most part, independent of the inject method. You need to force yourself to pay attention to injects and give yourself measurable goals (e.g., improving percentages on ggtracker) to make your injecting better. In the case that there is a mechanical reason why your current style is not working out, then you should experiment with others to see if you find something that's agreeable. Also keep in mind that you'll never be injecting more than 4 bases at a time, and that you can significantly reduce the pain in injecting macro hatches if you simply keep your macro hatches close to your base hatches (in particular, if you are 1 hatch-per-hotkey injecting). | ||
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
On two player maps I like to open pool, hatch, gas usually 15,15,17. The reason for this is that I am getting early pooled quite often and against some kind of 10p expand I am pretty far ahead. I also don't feel super far behind a hatch first. My problem is against builds that are like 10p 10g, or 12p 13g where the early pool is followed up by a super fast speed, or in some cases early banes. So I was hoping to get some thoughts on 1) what clues are there that can show it is going to be one of these gas,pool builds 2) What responses should I be making? Any thoughts, responses or even replays would be great. Thanks | ||
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Tritone
Japan76 Posts
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
On October 12 2013 14:59 Tritone wrote: Could someone give me a general overview of standard 3rd timings in ZvT and ZvP (both FFE and gateway expand)? I usually just take my third around 6 minutes no matter what but I have a sneaking suspicion that's not optimal. Thanks in advance. I think it is kind of situational but in ZvT 6 minutes is fine, same with ZvP vs the gateway expand, although this is more dependant on what you scout. vs the FFE 6 minutes is way too late and you won't get any benefit from it, you want to take the 3rd about 4 minutes and not take any gas till about 6 | ||
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Incand
143 Posts
On October 11 2013 22:50 KelsierSC wrote: Hey everyone, I was hoping to get some help with the ZvZ early game. On two player maps I like to open pool, hatch, gas usually 15,15,17. The reason for this is that I am getting early pooled quite often and against some kind of 10p expand I am pretty far ahead. I also don't feel super far behind a hatch first. My problem is against builds that are like 10p 10g, or 12p 13g where the early pool is followed up by a super fast speed, or in some cases early banes. So I was hoping to get some thoughts on 1) what clues are there that can show it is going to be one of these gas,pool builds 2) What responses should I be making? Any thoughts, responses or even replays would be great. Thanks for the 10 pool you need to know if it's a an economic(gasless) or allin(with gas) The best clue to this is their expand timing. An economic 10 pool will start their expo ~3:20 if they go queens first (hatch first even faster). if you see no expo by like 3:30-3:40 i assume it's a gas and allin. If you stay alive without losing to much drones you should be ahead. You can cancel your natural if you want to but i prefer to wait with it since if they make the mistake of focusing it first i get time. getting 2 spines and mb and extra queen while making zerglings if fine here. If they expand after that without killing a lot of your cute drones you should still be ahead. Just expand when you can and mb be a bit extra safe. you should still have a lead. Against 13/12 or 14/14 they will take their natural at latest ~3.40 so I check for that. If they do what's important is to make 2 lings when the pool is finished and run over and scout if hes hiding lings in his base or droning. Vs either of those expand openings i always get a fast spine (that's in range of the ramp) and 3 queens. having 2 on the ramp when they come is very important and save for transfuse. Whats important here is that you should be droning all the time until you identify it's an attack. If you blindly build lings you will be behind if he just drones himself and also slowlings aint the most useful against fastlings+banes so just making a smaller number when they attack is fine. Behind this i get my usual gas speed bane and go into a normal game with a headstart from that. If they don't expand feel free to make up to 3 spines ( i like building one in main asap and then move it down) and the 3 queens as usual. Same as above and if they just expand without doing a lot of dmg or you forgetting to make dronies you should be even more ahead. Just be .. careful the most common response after failed allin is the same allin. | ||
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
On October 12 2013 17:52 Incand wrote: for the 10 pool you need to know if it's a an economic(gasless) or allin(with gas) The best clue to this is their expand timing. An economic 10 pool will start their expo ~3:20 if they go queens first (hatch first even faster). if you see no expo by like 3:30-3:40 i assume it's a gas and allin. If you stay alive without losing to much drones you should be ahead. You can cancel your natural if you want to but i prefer to wait with it since if they make the mistake of focusing it first i get time. getting 2 spines and mb and extra queen while making zerglings if fine here. If they expand after that without killing a lot of your cute drones you should still be ahead. Just expand when you can and mb be a bit extra safe. you should still have a lead. Against 13/12 or 14/14 they will take their natural at latest ~3.40 so I check for that. If they do what's important is to make 2 lings when the pool is finished and run over and scout if hes hiding lings in his base or droning. Vs either of those expand openings i always get a fast spine (that's in range of the ramp) and 3 queens. having 2 on the ramp when they come is very important and save for transfuse. Whats important here is that you should be droning all the time until you identify it's an attack. If you blindly build lings you will be behind if he just drones himself and also slowlings aint the most useful against fastlings+banes so just making a smaller number when they attack is fine. Behind this i get my usual gas speed bane and go into a normal game with a headstart from that. If they don't expand feel free to make up to 3 spines ( i like building one in main asap and then move it down) and the 3 queens as usual. Same as above and if they just expand without doing a lot of dmg or you forgetting to make dronies you should be even more ahead. Just be .. careful the most common response after failed allin is the same allin. Thanks man this is really useful I will try some of these ideas out | ||
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
On October 09 2013 23:38 Terence Chill wrote: thx for your respond but this does not answer my question at all. i just wanted to know if 18-ol 18-pool is an autoloss of my 3rd hatch because of the mentioned scenario, or if i should be able to hold it even with that late pool. the zealot was built normaly, the stalker was chronoed and the msc, i dont know, i guess chrono too(?) did not check in the replay. i am a master player and i do dronescout vP too just because i like to play as greedy as possible. Right now at IEM, Curious is facing sOs 1-1 on polar night, and he just went 3 hatch before pool. Check it out on the VOD after the stream ends. | ||
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SpeedyTuyper
England28 Posts
On October 12 2013 14:59 Tritone wrote: Could someone give me a general overview of standard 3rd timings in ZvT and ZvP (both FFE and gateway expand)? I usually just take my third around 6 minutes no matter what but I have a sneaking suspicion that's not optimal. Thanks in advance. Against FFE, if he goes nexus first then you are safe to go 2 hatch before pool, I normally do 15 hatch 17 hatch 16 pool. I have not been killed by doing this opening before and have always been ahead. If they go pylon then forge then nexus you want to go 14 hatch 16 pool because they can cannon rush your natural or third with the earlier forge. if they do this then just cancel the hatchery and take your 3rd. Sometimes they will go for a pylon forge gateway on their natural, normally this means they will be doing some kind of +1 timing attack with zealots, against this you are still safe going 14 hatch 16 pool get a ling outside their base and keep an eye out for proxy pylons, make a spine on your natural and you are safe, you should also have 2 queens on your natural at this point (one injecting one spreading creep) and you will easily hold the attack with some lings. | ||
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NihiLStarcraft
Denmark1413 Posts
1.) I've played gasless openers for as long as I can remember but have recently started playing around with getting 100 gas early just for ling speed (pulling out of gas after 100) with very good results. It feels like I can really punish early toss thirds with lots of speedlings, I'm also safer against a variety of early-game all ins and such. And, best of all, it doesn't feel like I'm behind much even when the toss is neither greedy nor aggressive. I go 15 pool 16 hatch, get gas when pool is 50% done for ling speed, I go 4 queens, get my third at 5:45, pull back into the gas and take one more at 6:00. Then at 6:30 I sac an overlord into the toss main and I go roach warren, evos, lair etc. whatever my mid-game plan is. My question: Why is this not more common? Why do so many Zergs still play gas- and speedless? What is the downside that I am not seeing/haven't experienced yet? 2.) I feel like I can not win against toss that play super defensive, never ever push out at all, get 4 bases very conservatively and carefully, and slowly but surely work on a void ray/colossus/templar(/blink stalker) army. I've tried ~10 queens in my army, I've tried mass corruptor, I've tried hydras, I've tried fungal - but even with plenty of bank and being able to remax, I've lost every game against this. My question: What is a good unit composition in that situation? Also: if a toss player plays so super defensive, is there maybe a better way to play in general? What do I do in that situation? Is there some all-in/strong push that I should do rather than entering the super late game stage? Thanks ahead of time! EDIT: Should probably mention that I'm a diamond level player! | ||
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Destruktor
Spain60 Posts
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
On October 19 2013 21:49 NihiLStarcraft wrote: I have two ZvP questions: 1.) I've played gasless openers for as long as I can remember but have recently started playing around with getting 100 gas early just for ling speed (pulling out of gas after 100) with very good results. It feels like I can really punish early toss thirds with lots of speedlings, I'm also safer against a variety of early-game all ins and such. And, best of all, it doesn't feel like I'm behind much even when the toss is neither greedy nor aggressive. I go 15 pool 16 hatch, get gas when pool is 50% done for ling speed, I go 4 queens, get my third at 5:45, pull back into the gas and take one more at 6:00. Then at 6:30 I sac an overlord into the toss main and I go roach warren, evos, lair etc. whatever my mid-game plan is. My question: Why is this not more common? Why do so many Zergs still play gas- and speedless? What is the downside that I am not seeing/haven't experienced yet? 2.) I feel like I can not win against toss that play super defensive, never ever push out at all, get 4 bases very conservatively and carefully, and slowly but surely work on a void ray/colossus/templar(/blink stalker) army. I've tried ~10 queens in my army, I've tried mass corruptor, I've tried hydras, I've tried fungal - but even with plenty of bank and being able to remax, I've lost every game against this. My question: What is a good unit composition in that situation? Also: if a toss player plays so super defensive, is there maybe a better way to play in general? What do I do in that situation? Is there some all-in/strong push that I should do rather than entering the super late game stage? Thanks ahead of time! EDIT: Should probably mention that I'm a diamond level player! I think the answer to your first part needs to be slightly more specific, against a gateway expansion build every zerg gets 100 gas for speed, however if the protoss forge expands then going fast 3 hatch with no gas is a superior opening to getting the early speed. For part 2 against a super defensive protoss it really comes down to your own preference. One of them is to just expand and tech like crazy. if they are going to turtle you have the room to do this aswell and you just have to make a zerg army that can fight against them, usually something like BL, swarm host, corrupter, infestor The other option would be to deny the protoss 3rd base. If they are trying to take the third after 10 minutes then you should be able to make a Roach, Ling army big enough to kill anything they have. If you do this and put pressure off of your 3/4 bases it also gives you the room to make a devastating muta tech switch, The problem If they get 3 bases up is that denying a protoss 4th base doesn't really matter a huge amount, they can still get a really brutal army up and by that stage Roach, Ling or Roach, Hydra ling is just a horrid composition. TLDR: gasless is better against forge expand builds. With turtle protoss either try and deny the third whilst setting up a muta tech switch or just expand yourself and build the super boring free unit army | ||
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