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United Kingdom10443 Posts
On October 21 2013 06:16 Destruktor wrote:
Hi guys! I'm having a lot of problems vs Terran who goes 3CC mine + bio. I go muta/bane/ling but I can't hold his pushes all game. I can't harass him because I'm using all my army to defend me. Is there any other army composition viable? I feel mutas too many weak. I tried infestors but FG don't works against a good Terran splits. Finally, Terran knows I will try go Ultras in Tier 3 of course because there is no way to use Broodlords and he makes marauders in advanced. Any tip?
Post some replays up as your question are kind of hard to answer without them.
Your composition is perfectly fine
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On October 21 2013 19:57 KelsierSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2013 21:49 NihiLStarcraft wrote:
I have two ZvP questions:
1.) I've played gasless openers for as long as I can remember but have recently started playing around with getting 100 gas early just for ling speed (pulling out of gas after 100) with very good results. It feels like I can really punish early toss thirds with lots of speedlings, I'm also safer against a variety of early-game all ins and such. And, best of all, it doesn't feel like I'm behind much even when the toss is neither greedy nor aggressive. I go 15 pool 16 hatch, get gas when pool is 50% done for ling speed, I go 4 queens, get my third at 5:45, pull back into the gas and take one more at 6:00. Then at 6:30 I sac an overlord into the toss main and I go roach warren, evos, lair etc. whatever my mid-game plan is. My question: Why is this not more common? Why do so many Zergs still play gas- and speedless? What is the downside that I am not seeing/haven't experienced yet?
2.) I feel like I can not win against toss that play super defensive, never ever push out at all, get 4 bases very conservatively and carefully, and slowly but surely work on a void ray/colossus/templar(/blink stalker) army. I've tried ~10 queens in my army, I've tried mass corruptor, I've tried hydras, I've tried fungal - but even with plenty of bank and being able to remax, I've lost every game against this. My question: What is a good unit composition in that situation? Also: if a toss player plays so super defensive, is there maybe a better way to play in general? What do I do in that situation? Is there some all-in/strong push that I should do rather than entering the super late game stage?
Thanks ahead of time!
EDIT: Should probably mention that I'm a diamond level player! I think the answer to your first part needs to be slightly more specific, against a gateway expansion build every zerg gets 100 gas for speed, however if the protoss forge expands then going fast 3 hatch with no gas is a superior opening to getting the early speed. For part 2 against a super defensive protoss it really comes down to your own preference. One of them is to just expand and tech like crazy. if they are going to turtle you have the room to do this aswell and you just have to make a zerg army that can fight against them, usually something like BL, swarm host, corrupter, infestor The other option would be to deny the protoss 3rd base. If they are trying to take the third after 10 minutes then you should be able to make a Roach, Ling army big enough to kill anything they have. If you do this and put pressure off of your 3/4 bases it also gives you the room to make a devastating muta tech switch, The problem If they get 3 bases up is that denying a protoss 4th base doesn't really matter a huge amount, they can still get a really brutal army up and by that stage Roach, Ling or Roach, Hydra ling is just a horrid composition. TLDR: gasless is better against forge expand builds. With turtle protoss either try and deny the third whilst setting up a muta tech switch or just expand yourself and build the super boring free unit army
Cool, that helps me a bit. Thanks!
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On October 21 2013 19:59 KelsierSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2013 06:16 Destruktor wrote:
Hi guys! I'm having a lot of problems vs Terran who goes 3CC mine + bio. I go muta/bane/ling but I can't hold his pushes all game. I can't harass him because I'm using all my army to defend me. Is there any other army composition viable? I feel mutas too many weak. I tried infestors but FG don't works against a good Terran splits. Finally, Terran knows I will try go Ultras in Tier 3 of course because there is no way to use Broodlords and he makes marauders in advanced. Any tip? Post some replays up as your question are kind of hard to answer without them. Your composition is perfectly fine
I upload a replay here http://ggtracker.com/matches/4252105
This a sample what happens when Terran has 3 bases.
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http://imgur.com/CV0VBgs
^My stats.
I'm owning the ladder versus Z and T, but I can't seem to win versus P for my life. I think I pretty much win my ZvZs and TvZs on my mechanichs, which I think are pretty darn good for my level. PvZ however feels like an uphill battle all game long. Sometimes I just get killed straight up by some warpgate shit. If that doesn't happen I usually just get oblitirated when P moves out. I think my biggest problems are my bad scouting and my bad army compositions, both of which to me seems pretty important in ZvP.
Here's a game I played just a few minutes ago versus a fellow laddering protoss.
http://drop.sc/363092
This time I actually beat his first army, but then I get killed pretty hardcore lategame anyways. I think that after the first engagement I should just have dashed for his 3rd and ignored the collosi, but I still think I came out on top. Did I perhaps sac too many units to kill his expansions with my ultras and lings?
I just hate facing protoss late game armies...
I think my lack of a real build order might make things harder as well.
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Hi guys!
I'm having trouble when trying to reach a Zergling/Baneling/Mutalisk army composition.
When should I get my Lair? When should I get my Spire? I keep getting stuck on Zerglings and Banelings and forget to tech :/
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On October 22 2013 07:18 Rye123 wrote:
Hi guys!
I'm having trouble when trying to reach a Zergling/Baneling/Mutalisk army composition.
When should I get my Lair? When should I get my Spire? I keep getting stuck on Zerglings and Banelings and forget to tech :/
what build are you opening with?
6-7 minutes is a normal timed lair iirc
gas timing is probably a pretty big issue in your build?
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I go for Hatch First
I get my Extractor after the third Overlord
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I am currently in silver league after having switched from terran to zerg. Zerg is much more fun in general for me, but I was still very hesitant to make the switch, because I really didn't like the way most ZvZs were going in ladder games. Pretty much every Zerg opponent I encounter tries to zergling rush (10 pool I guess) me, and even though I got a little better at defending it (still lose to this pretty often  ), even if I manage to defend it, I will still have a major disadvantage, like having only 3 drones left. If I manage to survive these games I often still win them, since I outmacro most players in my league, but it just really annoys me getting rushed in every ZvZ.
Pretty much every game (all matchups) I scout at 10 supply, however, scouting at this time is often a little too late to notice an early spawning pool in time. So should I just send a drone scout immediately when the match starts?
Also, I generally try and go for a 15hatch, 16pool build, but this doesn't work against rushes. What build should I use instead for ZvZs?
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On October 22 2013 12:13 ABP wrote:I am currently in silver league after having switched from terran to zerg. Zerg is much more fun in general for me, but I was still very hesitant to make the switch, because I really didn't like the way most ZvZs were going in ladder games. Pretty much every Zerg opponent I encounter tries to zergling rush (10 pool I guess) me, and even though I got a little better at defending it (still lose to this pretty often ), even if I manage to defend it, I will still have a major disadvantage, like having only 3 drones left. If I manage to survive these games I often still win them, since I outmacro most players in my league, but it just really annoys me getting rushed in every ZvZ. Pretty much every game (all matchups) I scout at 10 supply, however, scouting at this time is often a little too late to notice an early spawning pool in time. So should I just send a drone scout immediately when the match starts? Also, I generally try and go for a 15hatch, 16pool build, but this doesn't work against rushes. What build should I use instead for ZvZs?
If you drone scout you should be going hatch first, but if you scout a 6-9 (10 pool too? im not sure) pool I would cancel the hatch and make a spawning pool asap then remake my natural hatchery. Every all in is different to be able to hold. Here are some that you need to know how to defend.
infinite flood: commonly from a 6-7 pool. leave an overlord outside his natural ramp to scout if more lings are being made. If he doesnt stop making them (he wont if its a 6-7 pool) make a spine at your main and natural and keep units alive. pretty much theres a few tricks you can do. Hold position drones around the spine crawler to defend it and because he probably cant micro you should get the spine up. If you can afford it, make a queen, and flood lings. As long as you survive with like 8 or more drones you will be ahead. And dont mine gas.
Spine crawler rush. If you see a drone moving out of his base with lings, hes doing a spine rush. Especially if you see 2 (more if theyre stupid) drones move out. Dont mine gas, and when he makes the spine(s), you can try pulling drones to chase the lings while 4 induvidual drones work on one spine. You should cancel it and buy time. For this all in I would cancel my nat as this is a very all in....all in. Once your pool finishes, make 2-3 spines in your mineral line and some lings to defend. Once your spines are up, positionm them to be able to target one spine at a time so you have a 2-1 engagement in your favour. Queens CAN help, but they are not needed. Really survive this and macro up and you win.
All drone pull:make your pool asap and cancel your nat and gas.With your scouting drone make a spine at his base at the edge of his creep. Once he hits your base, make as many lings as you can while dodging his units. He has no income and you have some. Use this advantage to try and squeeze out as many lings as you can. Do NOT take an engagement until your hatchery falls. If he doesnt have enough money for a spine/extractor you auto-win from here. You kill his main and gg. If hes smart he will leave 2 drones at home to mine to be able to make a spine at your base.
Ill continue this later
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On October 22 2013 12:13 ABP wrote:I am currently in silver league after having switched from terran to zerg. Zerg is much more fun in general for me, but I was still very hesitant to make the switch, because I really didn't like the way most ZvZs were going in ladder games. Pretty much every Zerg opponent I encounter tries to zergling rush (10 pool I guess) me, and even though I got a little better at defending it (still lose to this pretty often ), even if I manage to defend it, I will still have a major disadvantage, like having only 3 drones left. If I manage to survive these games I often still win them, since I outmacro most players in my league, but it just really annoys me getting rushed in every ZvZ. Pretty much every game (all matchups) I scout at 10 supply, however, scouting at this time is often a little too late to notice an early spawning pool in time. So should I just send a drone scout immediately when the match starts? Also, I generally try and go for a 15hatch, 16pool build, but this doesn't work against rushes. What build should I use instead for ZvZs?
I'm in gold league(previously diamond, but for some reason i got put in gold this season), and ZvZ is probably my best matchup.
What I like to do is just going
14 pool
15 hatch
17/18 gas(sometime around there, I'm not so picky about it)
@100 gas speed
@50 gas Bnest
Place your baneling nest in your natural so that there is a one grid space for your Queen to hang out. She gets really hard to kill with just zerglings, and if your opponent blows her up with banelings, that's still pretty good for you since you will most likely hold it unless your lings were blown up too. Make sure to have an overlord or two to scout outside his base.
Have a few lings in base and morph them to banes on your ramp if you see him move out. Protect your banelings with lings and pick off any enemy lings trying to snipe them. Of course, if things start to look scary, make more lings, make a few more banelings and maybe a spinecrawler.
If he 10pools, don't mine gas until you feel safe enough.
Also, if you notice his hatch being later than yours, you can pretty safely conclude that he's going to try some mass speedling shit. Make sure to account for it. I don't really know how the timings work out, but it's allways good to know, right?
I had, and to some extent still have, the same problem as you. I win like all of my ZvZs if I'm able to get to upgraded roaches, but I had problems staying alive vs rushes. If your macro is so much better than your average opponent, maybe it's better just to go for a bit more safe opener(like the one I do) and just count on being able to macro better than him. At least that's my logic.
Hope it helps!
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Need some help:
Late game army composition against Marine/Widow Mine, Bio, Protoss?
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I lost to mass marauder a while ago. Now I random, and now I use that strategy in most zvt games I play.
I have no idea how to stop this as zerg. Can't get mutas out in time, and even if you can, 5-6 mutas won't stop it. Zerglings can't get a good surround on a marauder ball, and banes aren't cost effective enough.
Replay: http://drop.sc/363201
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ZvP - general tips for defending your 3rd vs early zealot + mothership core pressure
In a standard game...sometimes i can defend easily with just queens + lings, other times I'm getting rolled and losing my 3rd. Is it just a scouting issue... and i need to see how much he's committing to an attack? or is it certain maps are harder to defend/get creep spread and i should be more careful on? Should i be dropping an earlier roach warren?
I've been very hit or miss defending this lately :S
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@Code: Assume this is vs a GW expand, if so you should have speedlings controlling the map and searching for pylons. is this warpgate timing or early zealots rallied across the map? Any mass zealots needs roaches/spines, so you might need earlier roach warren and/or drop a spine at 3rd. I normally get an earlier RW if I smell a warpgate pressure as speedlings can't trade very well vs lots of zealots.
@Falcon-sw: not many options. Spines are considered Armoured, so Marauders get double damage on them whereas Spines only get a tiny bonus - but with extra queen support they can do ok. Theoretically Hydras counter Marauders (after range upgrade) - but Hydras are subpar in every other respect. Practically, I find Ling/Bane/Muta is still the most viable composition. One huge tip that I picked up on this help forum some time ago facing a similar situation (with a few marines in the centre of ball - shutting down mutas) was to not attack-move banes. Key is to right click move them into the ball, starting at the edge and driving straight into the centre of the ball.
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On October 23 2013 11:24 Falcon-sw wrote:I lost to mass marauder a while ago. Now I random, and now I use that strategy in most zvt games I play. I have no idea how to stop this as zerg. Can't get mutas out in time, and even if you can, 5-6 mutas won't stop it. Zerglings can't get a good surround on a marauder ball, and banes aren't cost effective enough. Replay: http://drop.sc/363201
By the time you attack with your marauders any decent zerg will have 1/1. Any combination of 1/1 lings with spines or roaches or both should hold your attack handily, then spire is done and you are effectively dead.
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Hey all. Quick question.
Terrans have been sneaking a bunker outside my nat or between my main and nat before my pool finishes. Then a reaper jumps in there and suddenly I'm forced to make a bunch of lings to clear it. What's the best way to deal with this and how many lings do I need to kill a bunker with 2 reapers in it?
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Hihi!
I still can't really beat Terrans - AT ALL -. If it were possible, I'd have a negative winrate :-)
I can handilly get up to three base, start it between 6/7 minutes, having 1/1 near halfway done and Metabolic on the way.
4rth base gets added slightly late I think (when should I plant it?).
My biggest problems;
>Mutalisk control. I never know when to do anything with them. When is it safe, how many should I get, what do I use them for, etc.
>4rth saturation. Until recently I had 6gas/6mineral drones in the 4rth, but recently, I feel like I just lack the minerals once things get going.
> This is the point where I feel like I can start harassing. I send squads of 10-15 lings to the 3rd or natural, sometimes supplemented by some banelings. Should I combine this with Mutalisk assaults?
>Transitioning into Hive: I get 3/3, Ultralisk, 3 Air and Adrenal. This is the biggest window of Weakness I feel. Should I skip the last two upgrades?
>Hive Tech; What to do with the skies? Do I keep on adding Mutalisk or can I slowly add Infestors; How many? When to get broodlord tech?
>How do I close the game out? Last game I had the Terran contained to 3 bases, me having a 6thj just started. In the end, he just managed to make 50/50 Marauder Marine and a ton of Mines, and I just died. I couldn't do anything about it (might have been helped by the map... Yeonsu seems kinda bad for ZvT ?). I don't know how I kill an entranched Terran, so usually, they just ball up again and kill me. Is this were the mutalisk come in?
PS Is Yeonsu thrash for ZvT? I felt helpless with my ling runby's and surrounds....
Kind Regards
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On October 24 2013 12:23 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2013 11:24 Falcon-sw wrote:I lost to mass marauder a while ago. Now I random, and now I use that strategy in most zvt games I play. I have no idea how to stop this as zerg. Can't get mutas out in time, and even if you can, 5-6 mutas won't stop it. Zerglings can't get a good surround on a marauder ball, and banes aren't cost effective enough. Replay: http://drop.sc/363201 By the time you attack with your marauders any decent zerg will have 1/1. Any combination of 1/1 lings with spines or roaches or both should hold your attack handily, then spire is done and you are effectively dead.
You'll notice my opponent in the replay I posted had 1/1. Didn't make enough of a difference. And marauders rape roaches.
Do you have a replay where this worked?
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On October 25 2013 06:56 Falcon-sw wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 12:23 MstrJinbo wrote:On October 23 2013 11:24 Falcon-sw wrote:I lost to mass marauder a while ago. Now I random, and now I use that strategy in most zvt games I play. I have no idea how to stop this as zerg. Can't get mutas out in time, and even if you can, 5-6 mutas won't stop it. Zerglings can't get a good surround on a marauder ball, and banes aren't cost effective enough. Replay: http://drop.sc/363201 By the time you attack with your marauders any decent zerg will have 1/1. Any combination of 1/1 lings with spines or roaches or both should hold your attack handily, then spire is done and you are effectively dead. You'll notice my opponent in the replay I posted had 1/1. Didn't make enough of a difference. And marauders rape roaches. Do you have a replay where this worked?
Rewatch your own replay. 1/1 finished only after he was dead.
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On October 25 2013 06:56 Falcon-sw wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 12:23 MstrJinbo wrote:On October 23 2013 11:24 Falcon-sw wrote:I lost to mass marauder a while ago. Now I random, and now I use that strategy in most zvt games I play. I have no idea how to stop this as zerg. Can't get mutas out in time, and even if you can, 5-6 mutas won't stop it. Zerglings can't get a good surround on a marauder ball, and banes aren't cost effective enough. Replay: http://drop.sc/363201 By the time you attack with your marauders any decent zerg will have 1/1. Any combination of 1/1 lings with spines or roaches or both should hold your attack handily, then spire is done and you are effectively dead. You'll notice my opponent in the replay I posted had 1/1. Didn't make enough of a difference. And marauders rape roaches. Do you have a replay where this worked?
Yo man, creative strat you got going there. Ultimately, your victory came down to poor micro on your opponents part and macro errors. Touching on micro first, he should have banes morphed before your attack gets on creep. As much as Tasteless likes to say banes morph in real time, they don't. Also, he attacked with his lings before the banes finished. That will cost you a game.
In terms of macro:
-6 lings after double queen build. You never need more than 4 vs reaper.
-no pull out of gas. That will cost you a lot of income in the long term. Only reason not to pull out of gas is if you're all in in tvz.
-ovie speed first. seems pretty useless. You're prob gonna want your 1-1 first.
-7:10 third. 6 min thirds are the norm.
-Pumping lings on 40 drones because t has no third. You want to drone to mid 50s AT LEAST if terrran is 2 base all inning.
-60 drones @11 min. A result of all those macro errors.
As soon as you hit opponents who are making things in the right order, you will have problems.
On October 25 2013 06:13 SC2Toastie wrote:
Hihi!
I still can't really beat Terrans - AT ALL -. If it were possible, I'd have a negative winrate :-)
I can handilly get up to three base, start it between 6/7 minutes, having 1/1 near halfway done and Metabolic on the way.
4rth base gets added slightly late I think (when should I plant it?).
My biggest problems;
>Mutalisk control. I never know when to do anything with them. When is it safe, how many should I get, what do I use them for, etc.
>4rth saturation. Until recently I had 6gas/6mineral drones in the 4rth, but recently, I feel like I just lack the minerals once things get going.
> This is the point where I feel like I can start harassing. I send squads of 10-15 lings to the 3rd or natural, sometimes supplemented by some banelings. Should I combine this with Mutalisk assaults?
>Transitioning into Hive: I get 3/3, Ultralisk, 3 Air and Adrenal. This is the biggest window of Weakness I feel. Should I skip the last two upgrades?
>Hive Tech; What to do with the skies? Do I keep on adding Mutalisk or can I slowly add Infestors; How many? When to get broodlord tech?
>How do I close the game out? Last game I had the Terran contained to 3 bases, me having a 6thj just started. In the end, he just managed to make 50/50 Marauder Marine and a ton of Mines, and I just died. I couldn't do anything about it (might have been helped by the map... Yeonsu seems kinda bad for ZvT ?). I don't know how I kill an entranched Terran, so usually, they just ball up again and kill me. Is this were the mutalisk come in?
PS Is Yeonsu thrash for ZvT? I felt helpless with my ling runby's and surrounds....
Kind Regards
Yo, you should include league with your posts. You could be a high master or silver league. Big difference in advice.
I've found the key to good muta control is numbering the new eggs as soon as you make them and ALWAYS keep your mutas in a seperate control group so you can pull them back when things get hairy. You never wanting to be losing more than 1-2 mutas in engages (preferably none) because the strength of the mutas is in numbers. Also, if you end up spending all your gas to remake mutas, you will never get to hive.
In terms of your build read this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=428262 Watch your replays and make sure your your timings match his.
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EPT
