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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
I need a build order recommendation. Something that is safe vs baneling busts (don't even get me started on how absurdly easy it is for zerg to baneling bust compared to how hard it is to hold off) and that moves out relatively quickly with a strong timing attack. Also mass roaches have no counter? except siege tanks and marauders which are two units which suck which you don't want to get? | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On October 21 2014 13:44 Incognoto wrote: I'm so bad at TvZ it's not even funny. Half the time the zerg just makes unit and there's no way I can cope with the amount that he has. I literally can't. If he goes for a quick third there's NO way I can punish him for it. There's also no way for me to punish droning, zerg can get out 20 lings or 5 roaches and can drone safely unless you move out with full force, in which case he just uses the larva mechanic to throw all his resources into an army that will beat yours with a-move whereas you have to micro. How on earth do you play TvZ? I need a build order recommendation. Something that is safe vs baneling busts (don't even get me started on how absurdly easy it is for zerg to baneling bust compared to how hard it is to hold off) and that moves out relatively quickly with a strong timing attack. Also mass roaches have no counter? except siege tanks and marauders which are two units which suck which you don't want to get? A replay would be good, because it seems like you are doing something fundamentally wrong in the matchup. TvZ is all about preventing the creep spread, because the creep spread is map control and defense for Zerg. With a lot of creep they can make more drones, take more gases, and save their gas for more mutas/mass banes/hive and other scary stuff. If you want something safe with a strong push as a followup consider a middle-of-the-road reaper-reactor 3OC build with a starport and uncloaked banshee immediately following the single gas, with quick barracks 2 and 3 and slightly later ebays. The banshee keeps you safe against any roach or ling/bane shenanigans, and an active reaper/hellion/banshee force should be able to scout roach/ling/bane or 1/1 roach builds and keep the creep far enough back that your 11:00 push can have free reign over midmap. It's hard to say exactly what build would be best without knowing your level, multitasking capabilities, skill with reaper hellion, or midgame playstyle and skill. Mass roaches are somewhat easy to deal with once scouted--a couple tanks and 2 marauders built at a time do fine. Pure marines win with equal army size and upgrades. They aren't hard to deal with. Baneling busts are best dealt with by scouting gas (and mining past 100) and then a walloff, perhaps second bunker, and good reaper/hellion control. You keep them somewhere where they can take potshots at lings/banes but easily retreat to the main. As with most zerg allins, scouting it is the key. | ||
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KonanTenshi
Sweden210 Posts
On October 21 2014 05:58 TheTasty wrote: im having trouble as zerg vs turtle mech with raven, tanks etc I have tried everything but nothing works, help? Muta, Sh and amazing blinding clouds usually does the trick. | ||
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Grizvok
United States711 Posts
On October 21 2014 13:44 Incognoto wrote: I'm so bad at TvZ it's not even funny. Half the time the zerg just makes unit and there's no way I can cope with the amount that he has. I literally can't. If he goes for a quick third there's NO way I can punish him for it. There's also no way for me to punish droning, zerg can get out 20 lings or 5 roaches and can drone safely unless you move out with full force, in which case he just uses the larva mechanic to throw all his resources into an army that will beat yours with a-move whereas you have to micro. How on earth do you play TvZ? I need a build order recommendation. Something that is safe vs baneling busts (don't even get me started on how absurdly easy it is for zerg to baneling bust compared to how hard it is to hold off) and that moves out relatively quickly with a strong timing attack. Also mass roaches have no counter? except siege tanks and marauders which are two units which suck which you don't want to get? Change your opinion about Marauders in TvZ immediately. You have no idea how ahead you can get if your opponent decides to run his banes into your Marauders (which happens a lot even in very very high level play). What is THE backbone damage dealer of a muta/ling/bane army? Banelings of course and what do Banelings absolutely suck against? Marauders. It isn't all about having the opponent make mistakes either. If your micro is crisp you should typically have your Marauders on the front lines and then when an engagement happens you want to split up the marine force behind the Marauders. Firstly Marauders are tanky and will eat Baneling shots and tank zerglings on the front line while your marines are immediately behind unleashing their stimmed dps. And secondly is concussive shells. You'll notice this much more in low unit count situations but if the Zerg opponent rolls by the Marauders and heads for your Marines if they even take one Marauder shot they are slowed very significantly to the point where they are rendered useless. I'm not saying make ridiculous amounts of Marauders but I am confirming that a well rounded army composition that maybe loses some dps to add much more survivability is absolutely worth it. Also if your opponent goes mass roaches how is the siege tank a unit you don't want to be making? I mean it sounds like your army is 100% marines and I'm sorry but that simplicity isn't going to cut it. Yeah Marines have insane dps but the survivability of that type of army is near zero. I bet your army comp is like medivac marine widow mine and that's it well widow mines actually take really good control to use. You need to be able to split them bury them them and then still have to split your bio back to make the Zerg run through the mine field. Oh did I mention if your control isn't on point that the mines will wreck your own army? Because it happens a lot. We may need to see a replay. | ||
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KtJ
United States3514 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 21 2014 23:29 KtJ wrote: When should i get a e-bay? in all match-ups. What are you getting e-bay for? | ||
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KtJ
United States3514 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 21 2014 23:45 KtJ wrote: For any upgrades. As a general rule of thumb I've always thought that you get upgrades once you get 3-4 geysers. 1 ebay if you're aggressive, 2 ebays if you're defensive. Can someone clarify me on that? | ||
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KtJ
United States3514 Posts
On October 21 2014 23:47 Thieving Magpie wrote: As a general rule of thumb I've always thought that you get upgrades once you get 3-4 geysers. 1 ebay if you're aggressive, 2 ebays if you're defensive. Can someone clarify me on that? thanks. | ||
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t0n!ght
57 Posts
I'm feeling a bit lost in TvT at the moment. I used to play mech exclusively but now I'm trying to learn bio. In most games I play gas first banshee or gas first raven. I seem to often fall behind too much compared to the 15 gas player and lose in midgame. I usually go expand at 6:00 then I go up to 5 rax and 1 ebay before taking my third. I really need to figure out when I can safely go 1/1/1 3 OC. Any tips for that? Another thing I really don't understand is why pro players play with no vikings. Is it really better to go pure medivacs?, and why? Are u supposed to safe scans for tank leap frogging? Please someone explain to me the marine/tank mechanics without vikings .. | ||
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Grizvok
United States711 Posts
On October 21 2014 23:29 KtJ wrote: When should i get a e-bay? in all match-ups. You are trying to get everything spoon fed to you and learning like that doesn't work. You need to go get one build per match up and learn it inside and out. If you do that guess what? The build will tell you when to get ebays and upgrades. | ||
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Grizvok
United States711 Posts
On October 21 2014 23:47 Thieving Magpie wrote: As a general rule of thumb I've always thought that you get upgrades once you get 3-4 geysers. 1 ebay if you're aggressive, 2 ebays if you're defensive. Can someone clarify me on that? That really isn't accurate at all. | ||
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Aquila-
516 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
i can only remember one high level TvZ game in HOTS that had single ebay upgrades and it was a really really strange +1 timing by marineking in olimoleague if im not mistaken... and it got slaughtered horribly, it was a terrible build other than that ive only ever seen double upgraded bio or zero upgrade allins (for TvZ at least i mean) On October 22 2014 02:56 Aquila- wrote: Short question: In TvZ Terrans always make a few hellions and then switch the factory which serves as a builder for reactors which will be switches to raxes to favor bio over hellions/mines. Would it be good/viable to just keep the factory on the reactor and keep making hellions to later transform them into hellbats or keep making mines to have more with the first push? Because otherwise you have like 2 mines out with the first medivacs. Or do you need to cut this unit production anyway in order to "power up" buildings? it is possible to keep making hellions/hellbats but its a situation where you really have to be doing snowball damage to zerg and pretty much kill or totally cripple them. in IEM qualis recently forGG killed snute with a hellion banshee build that just kept continually rallying hellions across the map, but snute's defense totally crumbled, which it had to for the attack to work. otherwise yes you need to stop so you can get your production going, take a third, etc. early bio activity is really more about clearing creep than taking fights with a lot of widow mines | ||
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Grizvok
United States711 Posts
On October 22 2014 03:04 brickrd wrote: i can only remember one high level TvZ game in HOTS that had single ebay upgrades and it was a really really strange +1 timing by marineking in olimoleague if im not mistaken... and it got slaughtered horribly, it was a terrible build other than that ive only ever seen double upgraded bio or zero upgrade allins (for TvZ at least i mean) it is possible to keep making hellions/hellbats but its a situation where you really have to be doing snowball damage to zerg and pretty much kill or totally cripple them. in IEM qualis recently forGG killed snute with a hellion banshee build that just kept continually rallying hellions across the map, but snute's defense totally crumbled, which it had to for the attack to work. otherwise yes you need to stop so you can get your production going, take a third, etc. early bio activity is really more about clearing creep than taking fights with a lot of widow mines Yeah from what I've seen TvZ tends to have two ebays. TvT can be variable but you'll usually see two ebays thrown down together. I've noticed my timings change considerably on this front if I spot Banshees incoming as I'll usually get the ebay down very quickly for turrets. TvP is always a single ebay. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On October 22 2014 03:24 Grizvok wrote: Yeah from what I've seen TvZ tends to have two ebays. TvT can be variable but you'll usually see two ebays thrown down together. I've noticed my timings change considerably on this front if I spot Banshees incoming as I'll usually get the ebay down very quickly for turrets. TvP is always a single ebay. TvZ indeed have 2 ebays. In Biomine vs zergbanemuta, upgrade are critical and kinda dictate the pace of the game, usually with the terran being the most aggressive on his upgrade timings. 1/1 gives you a good timing, 2/2 a very strong one (that's when marines laugh at mutas), 3/3 is god mode (cause the zerg has to upgrade to hive to get 3/3, your window of superiority is huuuuuuge) TvT depends on the composition but when it's bio vs bio 2 ebays are almost mandatory any upgrade advantage makes a huge difference in the outcome of the battle when it's 50 marines vs 50 marines. TvP is one ebay at start, but once 1/1 is done usually want to start 2/2 asap and thus you will have built a second ebay and an armory before hand. You need stim and medivac earlier than in the other match up and you can affort 2 ebays in early game. But in mid and late game protoss will (often) have their second forge and they ll (always) chronoboost upgrades, if you want to keep up in upgrades you need 2 Ebays. You just don't want to have their zealot over-upgrading you. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On October 22 2014 02:56 Aquila- wrote: Short question: In TvZ Terrans always make a few hellions and then switch the factory which serves as a builder for reactors which will be switches to raxes to favor bio over hellions/mines. Would it be good/viable to just keep the factory on the reactor and keep making hellions to later transform them into hellbats or keep making mines to have more with the first push? Because otherwise you have like 2 mines out with the first medivacs. Or do you need to cut this unit production anyway in order to "power up" buildings? When you play bio, the most important thing in your army is your bio. Having 6 extra mines/hellions won't matter much if you don't have enough marines. Starting a huge marine production as early as possible is key, and you already delayed them by starting with reactor factory, you have to get them asap. It's only when your marine production is flooding that you start adding mines or hellbat as support. | ||
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Grizvok
United States711 Posts
On October 22 2014 05:06 Gwavajuice wrote: TvZ indeed have 2 ebays. In Biomine vs zergbanemuta, upgrade are critical and kinda dictate the pace of the game, usually with the terran being the most aggressive on his upgrade timings. 1/1 gives you a good timing, 2/2 a very strong one (that's when marines laugh at mutas), 3/3 is god mode (cause the zerg has to upgrade to hive to get 3/3, your window of superiority is huuuuuuge) TvT depends on the composition but when it's bio vs bio 2 ebays are almost mandatory any upgrade advantage makes a huge difference in the outcome of the battle when it's 50 marines vs 50 marines. TvP is one ebay at start, but once 1/1 is done usually want to start 2/2 asap and thus you will have built a second ebay and an armory before hand. You need stim and medivac earlier than in the other match up and you can affort 2 ebays in early game. But in mid and late game protoss will (often) have their second forge and they ll (always) chronoboost upgrades, if you want to keep up in upgrades you need 2 Ebays. You just don't want to have their zealot over-upgrading you. I actually have big problems against Zealot heavy armies...the upgrade disparity is probably the problem. Sometimes the Zealots seem invincible. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On October 22 2014 02:21 t0n!ght wrote: Hey guys I'm feeling a bit lost in TvT at the moment. I used to play mech exclusively but now I'm trying to learn bio. In most games I play gas first banshee or gas first raven. I seem to often fall behind too much compared to the 15 gas player and lose in midgame. I usually go expand at 6:00 then I go up to 5 rax and 1 ebay before taking my third. I really need to figure out when I can safely go 1/1/1 3 OC. Any tips for that? Another thing I really don't understand is why pro players play with no vikings. Is it really better to go pure medivacs?, and why? Are u supposed to safe scans for tank leap frogging? Please someone explain to me the marine/tank mechanics without vikings .. I don't think you're right about the pro not using vinkings. Air control is key in TvT (cause tank range > tank vision) and viking is really one of they key units of the match up. What can happen though is when one players lost the early air battles, he just forget about making vikings if he doesn't think he can make enough to not be insta killed by his opponenent air army. But in the end he knows he will have to get back in the sky with extra starports or Thors. Regarding the build, just learn the rax 12 gaz 15 build. You will learn bio style with more ease, then switch to gaz First banshee when you have match up knowledge... | ||
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Grizvok
United States711 Posts
On October 22 2014 05:37 Gwavajuice wrote: I don't think you're right about the pro not using vinkings. Air control is key in TvT (cause tank range > tank vision) and viking is really one of they key units of the match up. What can happen though is when one players lost the early air battles, he just forget about making vikings if he doesn't think he can make enough to not be insta killed by his opponenent air army. But in the end he knows he will have to get back in the sky with extra starports or Thors. Regarding the build, just learn the rax 12 gaz 15 build. You will learn bio style with more ease, then switch to gaz First banshee when you have match up knowledge... Agreed. The vast majority of high level TvT's I'm seeing involve Vikings even early on. | ||
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