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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On October 21 2014 23:29 KtJ wrote: When should i get a e-bay? in all match-ups. Pretty much all Terran builds, no matter how they are structured, have ebays going down a little after barracks 2 and 3. This doesn't really apply in TvT though, especially if you play without a raven and you need a 6 minute ebay for turrets. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 22 2014 03:04 brickrd wrote: i can only remember one high level TvZ game in HOTS that had single ebay upgrades and it was a really really strange +1 timing by marineking in olimoleague if im not mistaken... and it got slaughtered horribly, it was a terrible build other than that ive only ever seen double upgraded bio or zero upgrade allins (for TvZ at least i mean) it is possible to keep making hellions/hellbats but its a situation where you really have to be doing snowball damage to zerg and pretty much kill or totally cripple them. in IEM qualis recently forGG killed snute with a hellion banshee build that just kept continually rallying hellions across the map, but snute's defense totally crumbled, which it had to for the attack to work. otherwise yes you need to stop so you can get your production going, take a third, etc. early bio activity is really more about clearing creep than taking fights with a lot of widow mines My WoL habits are showing  my bad. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On October 21 2014 03:16 Thieving Magpie wrote: Assuming you're not trying to get to masters and only want to play a few games a week--what is the argument against learning to execute timing attacks instead of macro based play? There isn't one. Playstyle is a personal preference. Even if you wanted to get GM, plenty of people have proven that you can have a unique playstyle and succeed at the top of NA ladder (RuFF, Hitman to name a couple). People who criticize these playstyles are hurting their own understanding of the game. On October 21 2014 03:34 starslayer wrote: hello all ive been noticing a lot more of the ling bane corrupter style and its been making me think about about a style ive been trying but has been really hard vs the muta bane style,but i think works well vs the corrupters better. I call it the MTW style which stands for Marine Tank Windowmines style. Bio core units and tanks and mines for splash target banes with tanks spread and your good.the only thing is if they notice this and go mutas instead, i would suggest to switch to thors or when attacking bring 4-5 scv for turrets. edit: i guess i should talk more about it, i normally do the flash opening reaper reactor expo into marine drop hellion run by, and depending on what i see ill go mines and then around getting 2-2 get 2nd factory make tanks, and the opposite if i see them going aggro make tanks into tank mines.i like to micro my mines up first setting them up and then moving my army up just in cause the bum rush you all you need to do is siege and split then trying to do it all at once.again if your trying this and see mutas you need to make turrets as you attack and set mines up around your tanks but not to where the splash will kill them.Also alot of the time they will go into broods from seeing tanks so scout alot and drop. Since the corrupter style isn't super popular at the moment, I can't really say from experience, but simply from theorycrafting: The best things against it would be to make sure you include a healthy mix of mines/tanks/marauders in your mix. The build sacrifices air control and ability to snipe mines/tanks in favor of a huge ling/bane count, better upgrades, and strong medivac counters. In response, you want to build more of those units that mutas are strong against, such as tanks and mines. Zerg relying on ling/bane will have trouble engaging 10+ mines or 6+ tanks with good positioning. If you go tanks, you must be careful to make sure your tank count isn't reset to 0 too often. As always, good upgrades, production, and expansion timing is key. On October 21 2014 05:58 TheTasty wrote: im having trouble as zerg vs turtle mech with raven, tanks etc I have tried everything but nothing works, help? You might want to try the Zerg thread, but: there are two main ways to play against it, try to beat it in the midgame before it becomes "invincible", or try to meet it head on. If you meet it head on, Swarmhost/Viper/Corruptor/a few Infestors is probably your best bet. Otherwise, you can play a very aggressive midgame with either mutas or roach/hydra/viper. Seems like you're really new. If your goal is to improve, you should just learn a solid build in every matchup and follow it unconditionally. Watch a lot of streams/tournaments to better understand the game while you improve your mechanics. Starcraft is difficult and it takes time. There is no substitute for practice and experience. I think you should avoid looking for advice in this thread because it is more likely to confuse you than help you. On October 21 2014 13:44 Incognoto wrote: I'm so bad at TvZ it's not even funny. Half the time the zerg just makes unit and there's no way I can cope with the amount that he has. I literally can't. If he goes for a quick third there's NO way I can punish him for it. There's also no way for me to punish droning, zerg can get out 20 lings or 5 roaches and can drone safely unless you move out with full force, in which case he just uses the larva mechanic to throw all his resources into an army that will beat yours with a-move whereas you have to micro. How on earth do you play TvZ? I need a build order recommendation. Something that is safe vs baneling busts (don't even get me started on how absurdly easy it is for zerg to baneling bust compared to how hard it is to hold off) and that moves out relatively quickly with a strong timing attack. Also mass roaches have no counter? except siege tanks and marauders which are two units which suck which you don't want to get? I struggle a fuck ton in TvZ so I sympathize. I think the flash reaper FE into marine/hellion/medi pressure is a strong opening for someone who wants to have a little more control in the early midgame. It still transitions nicely into standard play, just with a slightly later 3rd and upgrades. The other tips about scouting gas with your reaper for allins are good. Zerg allins aren't too hard to read if you're smart, but they still require good reaction/execution to defend. Roach/hydra is countered by tanks and making smart engagements. The strength of Roaches is that the only way to deal with roach hydra is to just have a lot of "stuff". Keeping up with upgrades is a must, never play aggressively without at least even upgrades. You will usually get 2/2 later than a roach hydra zerg but you will get 3/3 before him, so he will likely try to timing attack when you're at 1/1. Make sure you set up a nice defensive position with tanks before you get 2-2. When you can 2-2 you can resume looking for fights on the map, but even with equal upgrades you must be smart. The best time to end the game is with a maxed 3-3 army with 6-10 tanks, because you should hit 3-3 before him. You should go to 2 factory tanks as soon as you've confirmed roach hydra. Tanks are necessary vs this and if you can't read roach hydra fairly early you're probably either not scouting properly or don't understand what to look for. If he has roaches look for +1 missile attack, roach speed, or even scan the main for a hydra den/lack of spire/researching roach speed. Mixing in marauders is strong vs all compositions, in general you should have 3 tech labs 5 reactors on 3 base 8 rax regardless of whether you're playing against roach hydra or not. On October 22 2014 02:21 t0n!ght wrote: Hey guys I'm feeling a bit lost in TvT at the moment. I used to play mech exclusively but now I'm trying to learn bio. In most games I play gas first banshee or gas first raven. I seem to often fall behind too much compared to the 15 gas player and lose in midgame. I usually go expand at 6:00 then I go up to 5 rax and 1 ebay before taking my third. I really need to figure out when I can safely go 1/1/1 3 OC. Any tips for that? Another thing I really don't understand is why pro players play with no vikings. Is it really better to go pure medivacs?, and why? Are u supposed to safe scans for tank leap frogging? Please someone explain to me the marine/tank mechanics without vikings .. Sounds like your opening is relatively accurate. Make sure you get things like stim and additional rax ASAP after expanding. I personally think you generally should go 3 rax (1tech 2reactor, all making marines) and then add 3rd, I have no trouble spending all my money with this as long as I add a few rax after the 3rd CC. I would go up to 2 ebay as soon as your 1-1 finishes at the latest in TvT, upgrades are extremely important. I play marine tank medi with no vikings always, Vikings are inflexible and only useful for tank vision and clearing medivacs. They do not help with mobility, do not help in head on engagements, don't help you hold positions, etc. They are useless in a lot of scenarios. In marine tank wars the name of the game is outmaneuvering your opponent, and good TvT players will almost never have a tank standoff (unless one is containing the other). For example, if two players are maneuvering around the map and one has six vikings and the other has six medivacs and a slightly higher marine count, the one with the medivacs/extra marines will always win an engagement assuming equal concave and sieging at the same time. This also ignores the fact that you are more mobile to outmaneuver your opponent. On October 22 2014 05:06 Gwavajuice wrote: TvZ indeed have 2 ebays. In Biomine vs zergbanemuta, upgrade are critical and kinda dictate the pace of the game, usually with the terran being the most aggressive on his upgrade timings. 1/1 gives you a good timing, 2/2 a very strong one (that's when marines laugh at mutas), 3/3 is god mode (cause the zerg has to upgrade to hive to get 3/3, your window of superiority is huuuuuuge) TvT depends on the composition but when it's bio vs bio 2 ebays are almost mandatory any upgrade advantage makes a huge difference in the outcome of the battle when it's 50 marines vs 50 marines. TvP is one ebay at start, but once 1/1 is done usually want to start 2/2 asap and thus you will have built a second ebay and an armory before hand. You need stim and medivac earlier than in the other match up and you can affort 2 ebays in early game. But in mid and late game protoss will (often) have their second forge and they ll (always) chronoboost upgrades, if you want to keep up in upgrades you need 2 Ebays. You just don't want to have their zealot over-upgrading you. TvZ always two ebays at the same time. TvT I generally like two ebays at the same time (if you didn't already make one for banshee defense), at the very latest you should get second ebay when your 1-1 is done. TvP always one ebay up to 1-1, then you have to decide if you want to SCV pull and end game on 3base or go up to 2-2. On October 22 2014 02:56 Aquila- wrote: Short question: In TvZ Terrans always make a few hellions and then switch the factory which serves as a builder for reactors which will be switches to raxes to favor bio over hellions/mines. Would it be good/viable to just keep the factory on the reactor and keep making hellions to later transform them into hellbats or keep making mines to have more with the first push? Because otherwise you have like 2 mines out with the first medivacs. Or do you need to cut this unit production anyway in order to "power up" buildings? You've mostly got it. The problem is with constant hellion/mine production you won't be able to add infrastructure nearly fast enough. There's so much you need - 3rd CC, 2 ebays, +4 rax, starport, and this all needs to be done in the early midgame so you can put some pressure on. If you did what you proposed you'd have like 6-8 marines with stim and 12-14 factory units when you wanted to pressure, as opposed to ~25 marines and 6-8 factory units. This pressure is mostly for clearing creep, maybe take an engagement if zerg engages poorly or has low unit count. On October 22 2014 05:17 Grizvok wrote: I actually have big problems against Zealot heavy armies...the upgrade disparity is probably the problem. Sometimes the Zealots seem invincible. If you're facing zealot/HT you should always make mines out of a reactor factory. If he's heavy zealot with colossi you should be able to easily deal w/ the colossi with vikings. Just always be considering your opponents composition, if he has not many colossi/a lot of zealots you can start making some mines at any time. You can make a reactor on your factory in base, and use it for your 2nd port when you make that if you don't need the mines. You can even add another fac or two in late late game if the colossus count was reset. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 22 2014 16:27 Pokebunny wrote: Can't sleep so I'm about to drop some knowledge on this thread. There isn't one. Playstyle is a personal preference. Even if you wanted to get GM, plenty of people have proven that you can have a unique playstyle and succeed at the top of NA ladder (RuFF, Hitman to name a couple). People who criticize these playstyles are hurting their own understanding of the game. Love you so much for this <3 | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
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KenDM
Netherlands206 Posts
Good to note: before this I had a build that took me to +2+2 updates. It would be nice to have a build that doesn't leave me hanging after that initial reaper. It would be even nice if I could have a reaper expand followed up by a timed aggression just to keep the opponent at home or something. Also, I'm noticing, these video's don't have hundred thousands of views anymore, is SC2 really dying out? | ||
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Enigmasc
United Kingdom147 Posts
trying to learn terran by offracing on na ( around gold level atm) but i keep getting destroyed by allins in tvz XD funily enough while i main zerg iv always gone by hte 100% full macro philosiphy ( aside from ocational 2 hatch muta in clanwars) so i dont even kno the build for a roach bane/roach allin let alone how to hold one with 3cc XD should i just do a build that opens tanks on maps like merry-go-round or nimbus? | ||
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KonanTenshi
Sweden210 Posts
On October 22 2014 20:06 Enigmasc wrote: hey guys, this might sound stupid but whats the telling signs of some sort of lingbane/ roach / roach bane allins inTvZ? trying to learn terran by offracing on na ( around gold level atm) but i keep getting destroyed by allins in tvz XD funily enough while i main zerg iv always gone by hte 100% full macro philosiphy ( aside from ocational 2 hatch muta in clanwars) so i dont even kno the build for a roach bane/roach allin let alone how to hold one with 3cc XD should i just do a build that opens tanks on maps like merry-go-round or nimbus? You will want to look for possible drone count, buildings and gas, sometimes the ling count is a big tell as well. If they got around 20 drones mining minerals and 3 to 6 drones going at the gas, it's a 2 base bling bust with lings. I'm not to familiar with the timings directly since I just react on instinct when I scout so if someone could help you out on that. | ||
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apocom
Germany10 Posts
On October 21 2014 22:29 Grizvok wrote: Change your opinion about Marauders in TvZ immediately. You have no idea how ahead you can get if your opponent decides to run his banes into your Marauders (which happens a lot even in very very high level play). What is THE backbone damage dealer of a muta/ling/bane army? Banelings of course and what do Banelings absolutely suck against? Marauders. It isn't all about having the opponent make mistakes either. If your micro is crisp you should typically have your Marauders on the front lines and then when an engagement happens you want to split up the marine force behind the Marauders. Firstly Marauders are tanky and will eat Baneling shots and tank zerglings on the front line while your marines are immediately behind unleashing their stimmed dps. And secondly is concussive shells. You'll notice this much more in low unit count situations but if the Zerg opponent rolls by the Marauders and heads for your Marines if they even take one Marauder shot they are slowed very significantly to the point where they are rendered useless. I'm not saying make ridiculous amounts of Marauders but I am confirming that a well rounded army composition that maybe loses some dps to add much more survivability is absolutely worth it. Also if your opponent goes mass roaches how is the siege tank a unit you don't want to be making? I mean it sounds like your army is 100% marines and I'm sorry but that simplicity isn't going to cut it. Yeah Marines have insane dps but the survivability of that type of army is near zero. I bet your army comp is like medivac marine widow mine and that's it well widow mines actually take really good control to use. You need to be able to split them bury them them and then still have to split your bio back to make the Zerg run through the mine field. Oh did I mention if your control isn't on point that the mines will wreck your own army? Because it happens a lot. We may need to see a replay. Long time lurker registered just to say thank you for this. But how many maradurs do I need? 10-20% something like that? | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2656 Posts
On October 22 2014 21:11 apocom wrote: Long time lurker registered just to say thank you for this. But how many maradurs do I need? 10-20% something like that? Constant marauder production from TL raxes, you should have 2 at least, more in the lategame in case of ultralisk. Tanks are good units also, yeah not as good as WM but they're still good in TvZ some players still marine/tank-it from time to time, also get thors they tank banelings quite well (it takes like 20 to kill a Thor lol) and are greath vs mutas. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 22 2014 21:24 Lexender wrote: Constant marauder production from TL raxes, you should have 2 at least, more in the lategame in case of ultralisk. Tanks are good units also, yeah not as good as WM but they're still good in TvZ some players still marine/tank-it from time to time, also get thors they tank banelings quite well (it takes like 20 to kill a Thor lol) and are greath vs mutas. There is also nothing wrong with getting just 1-2 tank when you're almost at his doorstep to force pressure on his spine crawlers. | ||
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ThaSlayer
707 Posts
1) Given that zergs still go for muta/bling/ling, why has marine tank fallen out of favour? 2) Is BFH really necessary when going for the bio-thor style in T v Z? From what I have noticed, hellbats tend to act as tank due to their higher HP. Is BFH really worth it when hellbats can only get 1-2 shots off before getting destroyed by banelings? 3) Is the bio-thor style merely a variation of the 4M style? Are they meant to be played differently? Thanks! | ||
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ThaSlayer
707 Posts
On October 22 2014 23:37 ThaSlayer wrote: I have some questions regarding the current T v Z meta. 1) Given that zergs still go for muta/bling/ling, why has marine tank fallen out of favour? 2) Is BFH really necessary when going for the bio-thor style in T v Z? From what I have noticed, hellbats tend to act as tank due to their higher HP. Is BFH really worth it when hellbats realistically only get off 1-2 shots before getting destroyed by banelings? 3) Is the bio-thor style merely a variation of the 4M style? Are they meant to be played differently? Thanks! Sorry double post. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 22 2014 23:37 ThaSlayer wrote: 2) Is BFH really necessary when going for the bio-thor style in T v Z? From what I have noticed, hellbats tend to act as tank due to their higher HP. Is BFH really worth it when hellbats can only get 1-2 shots off before getting destroyed by banelings? Its a matter of efficiency. You have X resources per game, would 150/150 _____ add up to more damage over Y time than 150/150 on _____ If you're already making Hellions/Hellbats, there's nothing wrong with making them better. If you're not making them, then its a waste of 150/150 | ||
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KenDM
Netherlands206 Posts
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starslayer
United States696 Posts
On October 23 2014 01:21 KenDM wrote: Does anyone have a good video for a reaper expand into a balanced mid-/lategame with a timed push? in every MU or one match up? | ||
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Tzela
Canada48 Posts
On October 23 2014 01:21 KenDM wrote: Does anyone have a good video for a reaper expand into a balanced mid-/lategame with a timed push? i looked in the OP for you but it seems alot of the links to videos are broken now. swing on over to The Ultimate Starcraft Directory thread. lots of builds to choose from. when i was trying to learn the game i used http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvp/tvp-polts-reaper-fe/ for TvP and http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvz/tvz-flashs-reaperhellion-3cc/ for TvZ TvT i stay away from reapers and play gas first banshee. i personally found it really helpful to make sure i scouted at the same time every game. that way i could get used to what normal timings looked like from the opponent, and what was possible if somthing was different. MY QUESTION: Playing bio TvP, game goes back and forth and comes out even, i have 4 base bio ghost viking and he has templar colo with gateway units. i know, if i havent won by this point the odds are stacked against me. however i dont think its unwinnable. what is the ultimate comp im going for? pure ghost viking with like 4 to 6 medvacs? i suppose i need to turret everywhere in order to survive the warp prism DT harrass. take all my bases and mass orbital so i can throw away most of my scvs. should i be shooting for the comp Mario posted about for his mech TvP? like mixing in Thors and ravens? at this point im usually done +3 mech weapons so getting the armour upgrades is just a matter of time. any thoughts on how the game plan changes after the protoss has survived passed mid game? | ||
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Grizvok
United States711 Posts
On October 22 2014 16:52 Pokebunny wrote: Alright, knowledge dropping is done for now. Might answer more tomorrow if I see good questions/discussion. We appreciate it. | ||
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Grizvok
United States711 Posts
On October 22 2014 17:57 KenDM wrote: Hi guys. I'm looking to be the one that starts being annoying as opposed to my opponents, so I want to try out the fast reaper expand. I found this build, it focuses more on defense though, also it's extremely tight with the timing of the second depo which probably will never allow me to wall off completely. Is this the right reaper expand build or is there a better one out there? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojzQnR3ChLg Good to note: before this I had a build that took me to +2+2 updates. It would be nice to have a build that doesn't leave me hanging after that initial reaper. It would be even nice if I could have a reaper expand followed up by a timed aggression just to keep the opponent at home or something. Also, I'm noticing, these video's don't have hundred thousands of views anymore, is SC2 really dying out? Filter just isn't as relevant as he once was. He took a break and the hype died down a little bit. | ||
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Grizvok
United States711 Posts
On October 23 2014 03:20 Tzela wrote: i looked in the OP for you but it seems alot of the links to videos are broken now. swing on over to The Ultimate Starcraft Directory thread. lots of builds to choose from. when i was trying to learn the game i used http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvp/tvp-polts-reaper-fe/ for TvP and http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvz/tvz-flashs-reaperhellion-3cc/ for TvZ TvT i stay away from reapers and play gas first banshee. i personally found it really helpful to make sure i scouted at the same time every game. that way i could get used to what normal timings looked like from the opponent, and what was possible if somthing was different. MY QUESTION: Playing bio TvP, game goes back and forth and comes out even, i have 4 base bio ghost viking and he has templar colo with gateway units. i know, if i havent won by this point the odds are stacked against me. however i dont think its unwinnable. what is the ultimate comp im going for? pure ghost viking with like 4 to 6 medvacs? i suppose i need to turret everywhere in order to survive the warp prism DT harrass. take all my bases and mass orbital so i can throw away most of my scvs. should i be shooting for the comp Mario posted about for his mech TvP? like mixing in Thors and ravens? at this point im usually done +3 mech weapons so getting the armour upgrades is just a matter of time. any thoughts on how the game plan changes after the protoss has survived passed mid game? Honestly one of the biggest things I have seen a few pros do at that point is to begin the nuking. I would still have a good bit of marauders as well. I don't think pure ghost as your bio is the best but I may be wrong there. | ||
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