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I've been thinking about the current zvz and I have a suggestion. I'm trying it now myself but would love to hear what you think anyway. The idea is to counter muta with defensive muta into early muta-infestor.
Basically you go muta just as usuall but the second your third is up you throw down double spores in every base and drop the Infestion pit then make just 2/3 infestors.
The idea behind this is that Infestor transition is usally so hard becuase the more mutas there are the stronger they become so a infestor transtion should be easier earlier rather then later.
You don't need more then a couple infestors to dramaticly shit the balance of the game and finish with just ling muta. So basically you'll be about 4-5 mutas behind your opponent. You make up for this by being VERY defensive with your mutas, fighting only over spores ( hence the infestor transition only after the spores are up in your third ). The aim is to do a double fungal on his mutas ( Ideally near a spore ) then clean up with your mutas, if you get a double fungal your 5 muta deficit is nothing and you shred his muta ball, you're now massively ahead in a muta vs muta game and we all know how that ends up.
Note, Becuase I only make a very few infestors and have no plan to use them beyond winning one amazingly decisive muta battle and then winning with my mutas I don't research the Energy upgrade. I know that slightly delays my first fungal but I feel that I need every drop a gas.
What do you think?
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On April 07 2013 00:30 SharpFlex wrote:
I have a question for LiquidSnute. A few days ago I watched your stream (which is the best ever btw) and you played a ZvZ. You decided to go BanelingNest before Metabolic Boost and commented it with "I hope he didnt see that I went Bane Nest before Metabolic Boost". Now my question is how would knowing my opponent goes Baneling Nest before Metabolic Boost help me and how could I exploit that.
Without Ling speed you can't possibly be aggressive even if you have banelings, the opponent could go up to 44 drones without making a single unit or take a fast third and you wouldn't be able to do anything about it.
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Hello all,
I'm happy to see this thread, thank you TL and all pros to help us.
Here are my questions :
ZvP : With HOTS, Protoss has more options to open. Which units combo would you use again a stargate pressure into 3 bases void ray/templar + units ? It seems Zerg should attack before the protoss got his units up but it's easier to defend than to attack.
ZvP : What's an effective 2-bases all-in ? 3-bases all-in ?
ZvT : Do you agree you must do mutalisk to deal with the terran drops ?
@Snute : Does your girlfriend play SC2 ? (No need to name her.  )
Thank you everyone,
Regards.
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On April 07 2013 01:55 Rizell wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 00:23 rPontare wrote:On April 06 2013 19:23 Rizell wrote:
Mid-High Masters here.
I have a huge problem in ZvT, especially against a T who goes reaper opening / or 15 cc into reactor hellions (or mines if he sees roaches). Then he gets third CC inbase very quick with like 1-2reapers and 4-6 hellions as his only units. He then transitions into mass biomine play with good macro and kills me midgame.
I feel like i would either kill or get a decent advantage if i made a 28 warren and went for a roach bust.. but I dont want to do that everygame. I usually try to emulate life's zvt with quick speed, quick third, then transition into muta/ling and then ultras... but this greedy opening just kills me.
Any advice? You are right about the roachpressure. Its is indeed powerful in this situation.The last two weeks i've been winning vs reaper openings almost every game. I know you were looking for something besides this but i can give my two cents and maybe we are going on at this differently. Mostly because i have not had any success versus this in any other way. I defend the reapers standard. 3 drones always follow and morphs to spores when damaged and if not proxy i make no lings. Just drones and one queen per hatch til 32 supply when i make roach warren. Continue droning until RW @ 50%, make 4 overlords and idle til completion. You will afford exactly 10 roaches which will sometimes do game-ending damage. Regardless of outcome i take my 3rd immediately after the 10 roaches is in production and i keep droning heavily untill the roaches are dead. If the damage done is critical i max out on roach at around 11:30 and finish it off. Same thing regardless of damage done if i face mech. If so, i also research OL-drop for efficiency. If the damage done is pretty low and i face BIO i go for the Life-style with muta/ling/bane into ultras. Two EVOs efter the 3rd is placed lets you keep up with the terran in upgrades nicely. I find that I am almost always able to completely saturate three bases and start the proper 1/1 and lair during the duration of the roach pressure which makes the situation desirable. In my opinion you should exploit the flaws in buildorders. When Terran open reaper into hellion this flat out kills the opponents at my (master) level. Versus reaper->mine->mech you as well are very far ahead. The worst case scenario is probably reaper->mines->BIO. With proper defense you never end the game but you always kill SCVs and delay mining while you drone up to 70. Go with it for a few days, its fun! Makes for a action-heavy game instead of that regular WoL play with the first real engagement at 12min. Cheers! Do you only do this if you scout gas opening? (I always 10 drone scout). Do you have any VOD's of any pro doing this? So i can steal the timings abit more accuratley.
Personally I do this vs CC first (all followups) and reaper openers. The reaper opener is very often followed by hellions in the current EU meta game, and/or by widow mines. Versus both of these you can deal a great lot of damage. Versus non-factory openers you should avoid it, since you get very denied.
I got my exact BO from Snute and his first game on Daybreak vs WW.Sting on the ESET UK Master finals.
http://www.twitch.tv/esetukmasters/b/381873207 <--- Here you have the VOD, the game were talking about starts at approximately 1 hour and 37 minutes. Take note about that sweet drone pull off gas to fake ling speed before canceling it again and putting drones back on. Nice trick if you don't get rid of the SCV when the RW timing is closing in.
Good luck!
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Hello guys, and thanks for your time. I am a mid masters player and am struggling with bio mine in zvt. It seems like dealing with the mines takes such a huge amount of micro that i cant keep up with that on top of defending drops and macro etc where i don't have this problem in other matchups. Any tips for this? Or what unit comp/strategy do you guys thinks works best?
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On April 09 2013 08:43 gahndi wrote:
Hello guys, and thanks for your time. I am a mid masters player and am struggling with bio mine in zvt. It seems like dealing with the mines takes such a huge amount of micro that i cant keep up with that on top of defending drops and macro etc where i don't have this problem in other matchups. Any tips for this? Or what unit comp/strategy do you guys thinks works best?
I find ling/bane/muta as the most viable option. Always bring overseers with you and a-move with a small bunch of lings to trigger the mines. Transition into ling/bane/ultra and dont sacrifice your mutas, they are vital in defending drops for the remainder of the game. Your are right about the point with the micro. Personally i like it. ZvT was so very broken to our favor in WoL were a massive amount of micro were necessary from the Terran while we could amove and just right-click our banelings after the marines. The changes makes for a very dynamic match up in my opinion.
Im not a pro and I do play at around your level, but i though that my two cents were better than nothing since you very often wait forever for a response in the thread.
Ciao.
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Hey, what do you think of the 2base 1/1 lings into 3base ultralisk style koreans did on dreamhack? I dont understant why they open 2base it just seem inferior to me in every way to standart 3base opening. Im sure at least euro guys know that dimaga has been doing this ultra/queen/ling style for quite a while with (great) success now and he opens always 3base.
Whats the advantage of the 2base and why they do it?
Im sure there is a reason, but im probably way too low level to see it.
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Hi, with current ZvZ metagame, i feel completely frustrated playing it, I have been trying different tactics, but most of them have been invain, I have high hopes that one of you will come with an idea against it  (like hydra timing /bling /zling timing off 2 base)
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Recently on ladder I've come across opponents in ZvZ who decide to opt for heavily upgraded lings and just constantly swarm my bases with them, I'm talking waves and waves of around 15-30 lings constantly coming. Banelings don't seemt o work because of the lings upgrades, and mutas just can't keep up with the lings. So, what would be the best option playing against this upgraded ling counter-attack style?
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On April 29 2013 23:02 sgtjimmy wrote:
Recently on ladder I've come across opponents in ZvZ who decide to opt for heavily upgraded lings and just constantly swarm my bases with them, I'm talking waves and waves of around 15-30 lings constantly coming. Banelings don't seemt o work because of the lings upgrades, and mutas just can't keep up with the lings. So, what would be the best option playing against this upgraded ling counter-attack style?
Master zerg here here. I just add some spines (2-3), and block my ramp with evo and queens (2 queen or more), protoss style, while teaching to mutas. When mutas are in the air its gg because usually no lair for the oponent with this strategy. Just read the game, if you can stop first wave, is easy to defeat, block as fast as possible and no way for the speedlings
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How do you play against Marine/Hellbat/Medivacs with ling/baneling/Mutas? I just can´t seem to trade anywhere near cost efficient, if my opponent does not do any big mistakes. And whenever I see Demuslim doing it on stream he steamrolls his opponent.
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On May 01 2013 05:22 TearDrop wrote:
How do you play against Marine/Hellbat/Medivacs with ling/baneling/Mutas? I just can´t seem to trade anywhere near cost efficient, if my opponent does not do any big mistakes. And whenever I see Demuslim doing it on stream he steamrolls his opponent.
I have only faced that style once and lost with muta/ling/bane I feel like muta/ling/bane/roach will be a strong counter to it. That's what I am going to start doing anyway.
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OMG i was watching TLO's stream the other day... Him and Spanishiwa are really the only two streams i watch (im gonna start watching Blades cuz i really like his HotS strats) because they are my 2 favorite players. Anyhow, TLO's APM is def lower than spanishiwa's, but TLO is just freaking epically good. I watched him play against the same grandmaster terran 3 times in a row on ladder and just utterly own this poor guy hardcore... was epic... anyhow i digress...
In zvz im at the level where i have down a two base all in ling/bane attack which is pretty successful and grants me >50% wins on the ladder but the problem is that i feel i am cheapening myself by not playing out a longer game and learning how. I occationally try to play the game out but seems like i always just end up losing to ling all in b4 i can even get into the game... Ive seen this happen to Z's at all levels of play so i know there is no hard and fast answer but in general what strats can you use early on to constantly (like every 45 seconds or so) be scouting ur oppenent to know if he has suddenly stopped drone production and is getting ready to all in u...
Thanks!
_Emp
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On April 07 2013 02:09 IcemanAsi wrote:
I've been thinking about the current zvz and I have a suggestion. I'm trying it now myself but would love to hear what you think anyway. The idea is to counter muta with defensive muta into early muta-infestor.
Basically you go muta just as usuall but the second your third is up you throw down double spores in every base and drop the Infestion pit then make just 2/3 infestors.
The idea behind this is that Infestor transition is usally so hard becuase the more mutas there are the stronger they become so a infestor transtion should be easier earlier rather then later.
You don't need more then a couple infestors to dramaticly shit the balance of the game and finish with just ling muta. So basically you'll be about 4-5 mutas behind your opponent. You make up for this by being VERY defensive with your mutas, fighting only over spores ( hence the infestor transition only after the spores are up in your third ). The aim is to do a double fungal on his mutas ( Ideally near a spore ) then clean up with your mutas, if you get a double fungal your 5 muta deficit is nothing and you shred his muta ball, you're now massively ahead in a muta vs muta game and we all know how that ends up.
Note, Becuase I only make a very few infestors and have no plan to use them beyond winning one amazingly decisive muta battle and then winning with my mutas I don't research the Energy upgrade. I know that slightly delays my first fungal but I feel that I need every drop a gas.
What do you think?
This is usually only something you try when behind because it's a gamble. If they only try to engage front-on during this transition you will survive and gain a big advantage with your infestors, however if they use their mutas to zone between say, your main and natural, whilst their lingbane charges into your main, you will lose your main base (or fly through the mutas to try to save it). Now you can technically stop the lingbane getting up that ramp (or to your 3rd or wherever) but it's very hard to have good enough spore coverage on ALL these spots, that's ALOT of minerals not on zerglings and so they can usually overwhelm with huge ling attacks.
That being said it's a pretty good gamble especially at lower levels (where players are less aggressive generally) as attacking in muta v muta usually strongly favours the defender.
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On May 01 2013 05:43 Empedocles wrote:
OMG i was watching TLO's stream the other day... Him and Spanishiwa are really the only two streams i watch (im gonna start watching Blades cuz i really like his HotS strats) because they are my 2 favorite players. Anyhow, TLO's APM is def lower than spanishiwa's, but TLO is just freaking epically good. I watched him play against the same grandmaster terran 3 times in a row on ladder and just utterly own this poor guy hardcore... was epic... anyhow i digress...
In zvz im at the level where i have down a two base all in ling/bane attack which is pretty successful and grants me >50% wins on the ladder but the problem is that i feel i am cheapening myself by not playing out a longer game and learning how. I occationally try to play the game out but seems like i always just end up losing to ling all in b4 i can even get into the game... Ive seen this happen to Z's at all levels of play so i know there is no hard and fast answer but in general what strats can you use early on to constantly (like every 45 seconds or so) be scouting ur oppenent to know if he has suddenly stopped drone production and is getting ready to all in u...
Thanks!
_Emp
Always have 4 'safety banelings' on your ramp from now on to stop the power of these sort of attacks. Another general tip is drop a bane nest and spine at your natural at 5:00 every game (vs an expanding opponent) to be safe from most ling and lingbane timings.
As for scouting the most effective ways to constantly scout if your opponent is going to hit a timing is to peek an overlord in behind their natural mineral line and see if they are still building drones. Also darting a ling in the front to check their natural gas is a great indicator, the faster gas, the more tech, the later, the more chance of a timing hitting you! Remember lings are only 25 minerals and 1/2 a larva each so they are expendable.
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Considering how popular gate expand has become for protoss is it now worth it to drone scout on 10 and go for hatch 1st into pool or even doulbe hatch before pool ( if they expand -> forge ) ?
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On May 03 2013 03:02 IcemanAsi wrote:
Considering how popular gate expand has become for protoss is it now worth it to drone scout on 10 and go for hatch 1st into pool or even doulbe hatch before pool ( if they expand -> forge ) ? well double hatch before pool seems suicidal against a gate expand to me. regular 15 hatch might be viable but on a two player map they are liable to hatch block you if you try to hatch first. If somehow you can scout that they're gate expanding before the probe arrives and then get a hatch down it might be worthwhile, but odds of that seem low. If you have good odds that they will gate expand (you know their style) then hatch before pool seems like a good idea.
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On May 01 2013 05:22 TearDrop wrote:
How do you play against Marine/Hellbat/Medivacs with ling/baneling/Mutas? I just can´t seem to trade anywhere near cost efficient, if my opponent does not do any big mistakes. And whenever I see Demuslim doing it on stream he steamrolls his opponent.
I've encountered this, I counter it with mass baneling/infestor. Both marines and hellbats are light ground units, so they quickly fall to banelings. Infestors are there to prevent them from escaping the banelings. As soon as you see terran doing this, cut mutas and start making infestors. Only make enough mutas to kill dropping medivacs.
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I found it weird that I couldn't find a thread about the obnoxious prism/immortal/zealot allin.. I just can't seem to hold it, any tips?
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Hi. Im a low masters zerg player having an EXTREMELY large amount of problems in holding off ling/bane or ling attacks early game in zvz. I lose to the stupidest things. "Stupidest things" is a unproffesional way of saying things, but when you lose to someone who makes a macro hatch before an expo's cheese. you know you need help.
PM me or respond to this on the thread if you can help me with this. Ill send you my skype after sop we can examine it and analyze. I dont want to post them here because Ill look bad.
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EPT
