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Hello Guys!
First of all, thanks for this awesome Thread! I'm already a fanboi.
I'm currently 1000points EU Ladder - Zerg.
a)
I usually open with 15hatch 17gas 16pool in ZvZ. I don't have trouble defending 9p/10p -> expo or any speedling allins, but lately i faced 10p, a bunch of drones and a hero spine crawler, which i wasn't able to defend. What option I have in this spot and which is the best one? I pulled all drones and went for a base trade scenario, which really wasn't the best idea.
b)
In ZvT i have trouble in midgame against a strong 2-2 timing with bio and a lot of mines.
I opened 3 Hatch Muta with double upgrades, which he was able to defend pretty easily I'd say. I didn't commit to Mutas, stopped at about 14-16.
I was able to break the first wave of bio, mine, medivac, but the next waves of reinforcements just rolled me over. What might be the best choice to do? Delay Hive tech? Commit to mutas? Rush for ultra?
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Thanks for helping me out.
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Hey I have one question if you want to go Mutas in ZvP which are the factors that maked decide you to go for them, and do you prefer to go mass mutas or just a few and then transition, but in to what? And my last question is how is the best way to defend untill you get mutas if he goes for 2 base allins or early attacks in general.
I appologize for any mistakes I have in the text :S Thanks!
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On April 03 2013 00:32 Theilo wrote:
Hello Guys!
First of all, thanks for this awesome Thread! I'm already a fanboi.
I'm currently 1000points EU Ladder - Zerg.
a)
I usually open with 15hatch 17gas 16pool in ZvZ. I don't have trouble defending 9p/10p -> expo or any speedling allins, but lately i faced 10p, a bunch of drones and a hero spine crawler, which i wasn't able to defend. What option I have in this spot and which is the best one? I pulled all drones and went for a base trade scenario, which really wasn't the best idea.
b)
In ZvT i have trouble in midgame against a strong 2-2 timing with bio and a lot of mines.
I opened 3 Hatch Muta with double upgrades, which he was able to defend pretty easily I'd say. I didn't commit to Mutas, stopped at about 14-16.
I was able to break the first wave of bio, mine, medivac, but the next waves of reinforcements just rolled me over. What might be the best choice to do? Delay Hive tech? Commit to mutas? Rush for ultra?
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
Thanks for helping me out.
Hi Theilo, thanks for the easy to sort format, let's try to answer your questions now:
a)
Your 15 Hatch 17 Gas is the greediest possible ZvZ opening, you take quite a risk since 6-7-8 Pool are extremely difficult to stop. At the same time, 10 Pool Exp doesn't really work cause all you need to do is take time till your Pool finishes and you'll end up ahead even if you're forced to sacrifice your natural or lose it. However, 10 Pool with drones hard counters your opening, it's pretty much impossible to deny the spine with just drones, I play that 15 Hatch 17 Gas aswell quite often and really I don't remember ever holding a 10p with drones and spines unless the other Zerg made some massive mistake. The only thing you can do is to try keep alive as many drones as possible until your lings pop out and then engage, again trying to save as many drones as possible.
It's important to note however, that this 10p with drones is extremely all in and that the other Zerg takes a massive gamble cause the only thing it really counters is your 15H 17G build. Anything else (14/14 , 15p 15h and 15h 15p to an exteend) can hold it fairly easly. The current maps are pretty big and more often than not your opponent will have to decide wether to pull drones or not before seeing your natural Hatchery. Seems to me a case of blind countering from opponents who know you are going to 15H 17G, the best suggestion I can give you is not to play this same build twice against the same opponent.
b)
I wouldn't suggest going past the 10-12 Mutas really, they are a huge gas investment and they're very hard to use offensively against the current mine heavy midgame. You can hold the bio/mine pushes with just lings and banelings, some micro to trigger mines is required but most of the work comes from your injects, don't wanna miss them and keep your resources low while under this pressure. It's very ling heavy and unforgiving, if you screw up your positioning and move on a mine you'll lose 20 lings in one shot. Use your mutas to snipe medivacs and catch drops. I wouldn't commit to Mutas nor delay Hive, nothing on Lair tech will trade effectively with 3/3 Bio. I've had the most success rushing for 3/3 and Ultras as these allow you to be aggressive. You will still need to keep several Overseers in your army and try to trigger mines as much as possible, in the very late games you might also wanna add some Infestors and/or Vipers, I tend to prefer the first against pure bio and the second against Marine/Tank/Mine.
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On April 03 2013 01:34 sixpoolOMG wrote:
Hey I have one question if you want to go Mutas in ZvP which are the factors that maked decide you to go for them, and do you prefer to go mass mutas or just a few and then transition, but in to what? And my last question is how is the best way to defend untill you get mutas if he goes for 2 base allins or early attacks in general.
I appologize for any mistakes I have in the text :S Thanks!
The factors into making mutalisk honestly comes down to what protoss is doing. Like personally for me I don't go mutas vs stargate play. If they go robo play I like to do mutalisks.
There are a few things you can transition into, you can do muta/ling/bane -> ultra or you can do muta/ling -> swarmhost/hydra or you can just do mass muta -> base trade when he attacks.
I personally go the muta/ling into swarmhost/hydra as I find that incredibly powerful especially sense a lot of protoss players like to go templar vs mutalisk which swarmhost destroy.
To defend when going mutalisks you need a roach warren, you may make no units out of this, but if he does a gateway timing you will need roach/ling or you be dead.
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On March 30 2013 23:11 BuiBui wrote:
When one is going for a standard pool , hatch, hatch opening in zvp. Vs the gate core opening. What should we do once we learn that its gate core instead of FFE?
Clearly once needs an adaptive build that can respond to cheese or a macro game.
What are some pro builds that you all use?
Stay on 2 base, grab 3 gas at 44 supply + roach warren?
Cut drones at 25 and get lings speed?
Could someone please answer this question? What are some standard reactions to gate core into: 1 gate FE, 3 gate/DT FE, 4 gate all-in, if the gate has been scouted after zerg has started a 3rd.
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On April 03 2013 11:52 habermas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2013 23:11 BuiBui wrote:
When one is going for a standard pool , hatch, hatch opening in zvp. Vs the gate core opening. What should we do once we learn that its gate core instead of FFE?
Clearly once needs an adaptive build that can respond to cheese or a macro game.
What are some pro builds that you all use?
Stay on 2 base, grab 3 gas at 44 supply + roach warren?
Cut drones at 25 and get lings speed? Could someone please answer this question? What are some standard reactions to gate core into: 1 gate FE, 3 gate/DT FE, 4 gate all-in, if the gate has been scouted after zerg has started a 3rd.
I have been playing a very reactive style against Protoss, I even scout with the 9th drone since HotS cause I'm not a fan of the Overlord scout / blind gasless third metagame that's been going for so long. I suggest you wait for someone that's used to play that and feels safe with it. Be patient someone will answer it : )
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Greetings, champions. Jinx here, Masters Zerg - EU.
My question pertains to a few things I've been employing to quite a good amount of success lately.
1: Do you think there's unexplored potential to playing Ling/Muta/Corruptor versus Stargate openings?
While it does not remain an effective way to play throughout the entirety of the game, I've had an extreme amount of success by denying or delaying a Protoss third with this kind of playstyle. Even versus double Stargate plays, the corruptor/Muta combo can deal quite effectively with Phoenix/Voidray as long as the numbers do not go out of hand.Transitioning into Swarmhost/Hydra sets you up for being aggressive throughout the game while denying any kind of Warpprism or pylon place that will let the protoss circumvent your Swarmhosts.
2: ZvZ has become extremely hard for me, as I've always been a player to juggle around my mineral and upgrade advantage on Speedlings to carry me into a counter-attack Heavy Roach/Hydra midgame. Is there a playstyle I can employ with the same kind of mindset? - I've come to experience quite often that using the Speedlings as a stepping stone to take a lead with my third-base timing, has become increasingly difficult as the lairs have been going up earlier and earlier. While in some games I've managed to identify this cutting of corners and allinning them with upgraded ling/bling, It just doesn't feel like a stable way to play. Am I simply forced into getting more mutas earlier than my opponent every game?
3: ZvT has not actually been too troublesome for me, outside of a few maps where I'm faced with this heavy and fast-paced drop play. I know that if I can survive the drops and go counter-attack, its pretty much a free win. Yet more often than not, I simply crumble as the Terran circumvents my initated drop-protection, while taking a greedy third. Is there a way I can punish greedy play, without risking over-commiting to the punishment as his drops are raining down marines at all of my bases?.. Are Mutalisks a must against Bio-openings?
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hello i am a top 50 EU GM zerg and i have questions about ZvT so...
first of all i like the ling bling muta style more than the roach hydra style. okay
1. i have problems dealing with hellbat marine medivac pressure at around... 10 minutes.
how should i deal with it? speedlings cant really touch it, maybe blings could help out a little bit,
or should i have mutas at 10 minutes out?
2. how many mutas i should make in general versus terran? i normally make about 10,
but i see many players building like 20.
3. if i go ling bling muta... how to deal with a mech push with hellbats and thors?
should i go for really fast t3 against mech and deal with the earlier lower pressure with mass ling bling muta?
would be nice if you could help me^^
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On April 03 2013 11:52 habermas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2013 23:11 BuiBui wrote:
When one is going for a standard pool , hatch, hatch opening in zvp. Vs the gate core opening. What should we do once we learn that its gate core instead of FFE?
Clearly once needs an adaptive build that can respond to cheese or a macro game.
What are some pro builds that you all use?
Stay on 2 base, grab 3 gas at 44 supply + roach warren?
Cut drones at 25 and get lings speed? Could someone please answer this question? What are some standard reactions to gate core into: 1 gate FE, 3 gate/DT FE, 4 gate all-in, if the gate has been scouted after zerg has started a 3rd.
When you face gate first, get gas geyser asap and once you see him take his natural take a third. Be very wary of his natural as if you don't see a natural expo by 5 minutes odds are he's 4 gating you or doing DT/stargate rush.
Get a roach warren at 6:15 or so. If you think he's 4 gating just rely on speedling/queen/spine crawler defense and you should smash it with a bunch of lings.
On April 04 2013 01:05 GodOfWarAReS wrote:
hello i am a top 50 EU GM zerg and i have questions about ZvT so...
first of all i like the ling bling muta style more than the roach hydra style. okay
1. i have problems dealing with hellbat marine medivac pressure at around... 10 minutes.
how should i deal with it? speedlings cant really touch it, maybe blings could help out a little bit,
or should i have mutas at 10 minutes out?
2. how many mutas i should make in general versus terran? i normally make about 10,
but i see many players building like 20.
3. if i go ling bling muta... how to deal with a mech push with hellbats and thors?
should i go for really fast t3 against mech and deal with the earlier lower pressure with mass ling bling muta?
would be nice if you could help me^^
1. You should have roach/ling/bane if he does a hellbat/marine/medivac timing. Your mutas will not be out by this time unless you are doing fast 2 base muta. You should always have a roach warren vs terran more as a just in case scenario like the hellbat/marine/medivac timing so you can make roaches, lings and banes.
2. I make 14-6 mutalisks.
3. You don't go muta/ling/bane vs mech, if you go muta make 9-10 then transition into swarmhost/roach/hydra -> fast hive -> vipers/swarmhost/hydra/ultra. Very good vs mech.
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Hello, I'm currently High Masters in KR, and I've some questions on ZvT and ZvP.
1) ZvT
I see lots of zerg pros use swarm hosts in this matchup recently. What are the exact purpose of swarm hosts in ZvT? How many should I get?
2) ZvP
I don't have the slightest idea on this matchup, really, even tho I played like 300 games...
a) How should a standard game vs P should be played like? I know the openings, but I just don't know what composition should I aim for. Right now I'm relying on roach-hydra-viper to bust the 3rd base of the Protoss, but that strategy seems highly volatile. I don't know why, but it just works this time, and fails miserably the next time.
b) What should I do vs turtling Protosses in Akilon Flats? Many Protosses just turtle in their natural, gets few void rays to harass, and go for carriers(or tempests) right away to defend against hydras as they get the 3rd base. No matter how hard I try, I can barely somewhat delay the Protoss's 3rd, but they would get it eventually anyway. The Protosses then just sit there until they have giant void ray/carrier(tempest) deathball, which I can't do anything about, even with 6~8 bases... I tried to make a line of spore crawlers in front of the enemy's base and also tried to use vipers to diminish the number of the void rays, but spore crawlers were just no help at all and vipers were countered by loads of cannons and few HTs...
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On April 04 2013 04:53 redloser wrote:
Hello, I'm currently High Masters in KR, and I've some questions on ZvT and ZvP.
1) ZvT
I see lots of zerg pros use swarm hosts in this matchup recently. What are the exact purpose of swarm hosts in ZvT? How many should I get?
2) ZvP
I don't have the slightest idea on this matchup, really, even tho I played like 300 games...
a) How should a standard game vs P should be played like? I know the openings, but I just don't know what composition should I aim for. Right now I'm relying on roach-hydra-viper to bust the 3rd base of the Protoss, but that strategy seems highly volatile. I don't know why, but it just works this time, and fails miserably the next time.
b) What should I do vs turtling Protosses in Akilon Flats? Many Protosses just turtle in their natural, gets few void rays to harass, and go for carriers(or tempests) right away to defend against hydras as they get the 3rd base. No matter how hard I try, I can barely somewhat delay the Protoss's 3rd, but they would get it eventually anyway. The Protosses then just sit there until they have giant void ray/carrier(tempest) deathball, which I can't do anything about, even with 6~8 bases... I tried to make a line of spore crawlers in front of the enemy's base and also tried to use vipers to diminish the number of the void rays, but spore crawlers were just no help at all and vipers were countered by loads of cannons and few HTs...
Swarmhosts are good vs mech and also good at forcing widow mines to fire at locusts. This is why swarmhosts are seeing more and more use in zvt.
zvp hydra/swarmhost/ultra/viper is very strong late game and can kill that deathball. Also starting off hydra/swarmhost into fast hive and get vipers then ultra. Very powerful zvp :D
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Short question for TLO (if any other of you guys know it, feel free to answer too  ):
What is the advantage of hotkeying your creep tumors?
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How do you guys feel about roach/hydra/infestor vs bio mine. I seen Stephono do it and it looks powerful. I have also done it and it feels strong for me as well. Will this unit comp be viable in the pro scene or is it just something good if you can out macro your Terran opponents?
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Plat Zerg here.
Can you guys please tell me a short list of 1-base common pushes and attacks timings from Protoss / Terran ? Like 4g, DTs, Air harass...
Second question, at what time should I prepare for that kind of attack ? I heard vs Protoss it is 5:00 if no natural (I usualy prepare for it between 6:00 and 6:30, maybe I'm too late) ? The question is : at what time when I scout no natural should I think "well, lets prepare for it" ?
Thanks
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On April 04 2013 05:42 PR.Jay wrote:
How do you guys feel about roach/hydra/infestor vs bio mine. I seen Stephono do it and it looks powerful. I have also done it and it feels strong for me as well. Will this unit comp be viable in the pro scene or is it just something good if you can out macro your Terran opponents?
Hm I think it might have potential but I personally am not a fan. Dealing with drops is really hard when doing that kind of style. I don't know if it'll be viable though or not as everytime I see any sort of roach/hydra play it gets smashed 99% of the time it seems like so I honestly don't think roach/hydra is a very good composition in zvt or zvp.
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Low master Zerg here.
I'm just sick of ZvZ 
I feel like the only option in the ZvZ midgame is mutalisk and i can't see any other choice. If i try a fast 3rd with roach/hydralisk, i just lose against speedling/baneling/mutalisk. I tried infestors but it's really hard to catch mutalisk (and i you catch mutalisks, you MUST have enough fungals to kill them).
Do you know some standard way to play against mutalisk in ZvZ without mutalisk ?
Thanks.
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Hey, Mid Dia here... I have 50% win ZvT, 66-70% ZvP but only 33% ZvZ...
I have two questions:
How can I go into a strong midgame army (roach/hydra/infestor) without dying to a muta build?
I usually am better at macro than my opponents during opening/mid game, but when I get harassed with DT's, drops, run-by's, then I lose all focus and just lose more and more until I have lost (even if more eco, army and bases)
Thanks in advance!
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On April 04 2013 17:59 Magus.421 wrote:Low master Zerg here. I'm just sick of ZvZ I feel like the only option in the ZvZ midgame is mutalisk and i can't see any other choice. If i try a fast 3rd with roach/hydralisk, i just lose against speedling/baneling/mutalisk. I tried infestors but it's really hard to catch mutalisk (and i you catch mutalisks, you MUST have enough fungals to kill them). Do you know some standard way to play against mutalisk in ZvZ without mutalisk ? Thanks.
Suppy,
I was watching you stream last night and you were experimenting with a new Z v Z build intended to counter standard muta play. I think you were playing against Guts with Gowser (not sure on spelling) observing. It seemed to work fairly well in that you won 3 straight games. Any chance that you could provide any details on that build? I too am looking for the meta to shift from mutas/timings.
Thanks,
Alex
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Hi Diamond Zerg here.
I have two questions:
1 - I recently bought the expansion and I haven't figured out yet the new units yet. Protoss oracle and mothership core and terrans hellbat and widow mine seem real useful and strong, on the other hand Zerg's swarmhost (which to me looks like a bad version of the broodlord) and viper (seems much weaker than infestors) look not so good to me. Are there any new strats with those new units? What am I missing?
2 - I don't know how to play ZvZ. I used to go mutas to get map control and a faster 3rd on WoL and transition into infestors after 10 mutas or so. Now it's real hard to fungal mutas, and muta wars are crazy. Is there some other viable build that can do decent vs mutas? I thought controlling your opponent through certain timings (so that he dies if he goes lair too early, for example) might work.
thanks
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On April 05 2013 03:04 DrAlWazzy wrote:Suppy,
I was watching you stream last night and you were experimenting with a new Z v Z build intended to counter standard muta play. I think you were playing against Guts with Gowser (not sure on spelling) observing. It seemed to work fairly well in that you won 3 straight games. Any chance that you could provide any details on that build? I too am looking for the meta to shift from mutas/timings.
Thanks,
Alex
I think there's is a huge mistake :D
I don't stream and i don't know any Gowser or Guts.
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EPT
