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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 05 2013 06:19 Magus.421 wrote: I think there's is a huge mistake :D I don't stream and i don't know any Gowser or Guts. I don't know why he quoted you but he did say suppy  | ||
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Creegz
Canada354 Posts
On April 05 2013 04:23 ekra wrote: 2 - I don't know how to play ZvZ. I used to go mutas to get map control and a faster 3rd on WoL and transition into infestors after 10 mutas or so. Now it's real hard to fungal mutas, and muta wars are crazy. Is there some other viable build that can do decent vs mutas? I thought controlling your opponent through certain timings (so that he dies if he goes lair too early, for example) might work. thanks I've actually been wondering about this lately. I've seen that hydras aren't too bad, but the problem is all I've been able to successfully do against Mutas is to defend with spore/queen and push a ground force into their base in hopes they retreat to defend. I have been having awful success in HOTS though. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On April 05 2013 06:21 blade55555 wrote: I don't know why he quoted you but he did say suppy Hehe I saw what Suppy did. I do it too for 1 week, and overall, i'm having a huge success. Basically, that's double upgrade lings before lair, into +2/+2 lings and LOT of infestors. When he goes out, you counter attack with your lings. +2/+2 lings destroy bases pretty easily :p Lost of infestors, because you'll waste thousands of fungles before catching the mutas. But usually i just kill my opponents with the +2/+2 lings xD Against Roach/Hydra, i go swarmhost instead of infestors. | ||
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ekra
Spain52 Posts
On April 05 2013 06:39 Insoleet wrote: Hehe I saw what Suppy did. I do it too for 1 week, and overall, i'm having a huge success. Basically, that's double upgrade lings before lair, into +2/+2 lings and LOT of infestors. When he goes out, you counter attack with your lings. +2/+2 lings destroy bases pretty easily :p Lost of infestors, because you'll waste thousands of fungles before catching the mutas. But usually i just kill my opponents with the +2/+2 lings xD Against Roach/Hydra, i go swarmhost instead of infestors. how do you deal with banes? I know you can micro around them, but 1 mistake can easily cost you the game also, he won't necessarily need to micro his banes and you'll need to micro your infestors and your lings at different places | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
On April 03 2013 01:34 sixpoolOMG wrote: Hey I have one question if you want to go Mutas in ZvP which are the factors that maked decide you to go for them, and do you prefer to go mass mutas or just a few and then transition, but in to what? And my last question is how is the best way to defend untill you get mutas if he goes for 2 base allins or early attacks in general. I appologize for any mistakes I have in the text :S Thanks! General consensus on going muta is that you don't want to go muta against stargate openings. I think it's best against either a robo expand (multi-prong harass) or against a robo all-in (basetrade). I don't think it'd work particularly well against twlight/templar styles, but not sure. Defending against a 2-base all-in can be done either with roach-ling, or if it's late enough, with a base trade. Lastly, muta styles can be played either mass or with transitions, though personally I prefer a transition (into ultra). It depends on how toss responds. if they try to hit you with a big 3 base colossus army before you could effectively transition, base-trade is best. if they try to defend with blink and tech to Phoenix, that gives you an opportunity to transition. This is my personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt. if a pro wants to weigh in, that would be better. edit: missed blades's response on the previous page. hadn't thought about a swarm host transition. | ||
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zyberjunior
17 Posts
tl;dr How do I defeat 20 void rays around 18 minutes? | ||
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RandomQueen
France23 Posts
On April 04 2013 17:07 RandomQueen wrote: Plat Zerg here. Can you guys please tell me a short list of 1-base common pushes and attacks timings from Protoss / Terran ? Like 4g, DTs, Air harass... Second question, at what time should I prepare for that kind of attack ? I heard vs Protoss it is 5:00 if no natural (I usualy prepare for it between 6:00 and 6:30, maybe I'm too late) ? The question is : at what time when I scout no natural should I think "well, lets prepare for it" ? Thanks Sorry to bump this, but the subject for timings is only for WoL (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202400). Do someone planned to update it for Hots or is it too early ? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 05 2013 11:07 zyberjunior wrote: I was using the style blade recommended in his HoTS zerg overview against protoss and went against somebody who built a large void ray army, with no other units. He cannon walled his base off in the first few minutes so I expanded an extra amount and ocassionally checked to see if he had killed one of the cannons to allow any units out. I scouted him with an overlord and saw he built 4 Stargates. I had been building Hydralisks and Swarm hosts to defend against any attack so I started sieging the cannons with the Hosts but he overpowered me with 20 void rays. I had 30 Hydralisks, 1 Roach and 6 Swarm hosts. I'm not sure how to defeat this. I also had 2/2 and he had no upgrades. tl;dr How do I defeat 20 void rays around 18 minutes? k so the swarmhosts were still good to do (you want more then 6). Make sure you are getting upgrades. Now if you are facing pure voidray you will lose the first engagement, there is nothing you can do about that. You will be able to do decent damage, but his army will still be strong. Your remax (and you should have more then enough) should finish him off as you should easily be able to deny his 4'th base while you should be mass expoing while doing this. | ||
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Veriol
Czech Republic502 Posts
The position with bio vs ultras beind depos/raxes/etc. IS always crusihing and if you miss mine here or there all your infestors/banes can die. GSTL spoiler + Show Spoiler + Prime example of what im trying to tell was today game in GSTL Yoda vs Scarlett where she foudn herself in such position and went for that counter attack and had even decent supply lead(60ish). Yoda knew it could happen and even then he proceeded to drop - when massively behind on army supply. And the counter didnt work because of the position with mines and bio was so strong she couldnt push and lost her lead. So what im getting at is would it be correct way to play; every time you win fight expand and defend and build up BL army? But then again viking+mine zoning would probably beat it. | ||
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Ephemera
United Kingdom66 Posts
Below is my rough build order, I feel it's good for all comers and could catch some people out? I also feel the transition into mutalisks relatively early would be good for ZvZ and for harassment against others races to perhaps pull them out of position. + Show Spoiler + Have you any tips and tricks for maximizing baneling detonations? Could you also share any micro management tips and tricks, for example the perfect surround or how to get the perfect mutalisk bunching. Thanks in advance  | ||
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vojnik
Macedonia923 Posts
I am still in dilemma which to veto. Thanks | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 06 2013 06:48 vojnik wrote: I want to ask the pros a simple question, do you cross out any maps on ladder and why (for each one) ? I am still in dilemma which to veto. Thanks I veto'd 2 maps. newkirk and korhal compound. Both are awful maps and newkirk is a bitch especially sense that map tends to have a lot of split map scenarios T_T. | ||
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robi247
11 Posts
I dont let him get more than 3 bases but he still masses an army like that and I cant do nothing with my swarm host roach hydra composition. Ultras or Brood Lords? i got the feeling that both are bad vs toss now :/ | ||
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
On April 05 2013 03:04 DrAlWazzy wrote: Suppy, I was watching you stream last night and you were experimenting with a new Z v Z build intended to counter standard muta play. I think you were playing against Guts with Gowser (not sure on spelling) observing. It seemed to work fairly well in that you won 3 straight games. Any chance that you could provide any details on that build? I too am looking for the meta to shift from mutas/timings. Thanks, Alex Hey DrAIWazzy, Yes I am in fact experimenting with new ZvZ styles. I did two on that streaming session, one was the "Goswser build" which he showcased on NASL ZvZ Coaching with MrBitter - there's a link here http://nasl.tv/Videos/nasl-zvz-with-mrbitter-part-1 In Part 2 Goswser plays, and Part 3 MrBitter plays with Goswser coaching. It's a very interesting style that I think can be very effective! The other style I did was 1/1 lings into infestors + hive. It's a very strong style, but a little more difficult now that mutas are faster and fungal is a projectile, making it more difficult to hit mutas. Basically you go standard, get speed, bane nest, then one evo for +1 carapace, one evo for +1 melee, and a gas when that 2nd evo starts. Next 100 gas goes to Lair, 7:30 you want a third expansion up, and start pumping lings when you have full saturation on 2 base. They will have mutas by around 9:30 but you'll have a solid window of like 1 minute where your +1 carapace (and soon +1 melee) lings will dominate, as they won't die to banelings in one hit. Once mutas are out, you can continue pumping lings to ensure that the enemy can never come to your side of the map until you have spores ready (which are really the premises of these two builds, since spores are so good now). Really just new ways to play that will take more fleshing out to figure out, but potentially a nice alternative to muta every game! I'll give more details as I experiment with it more and figure more out about it. | ||
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SacredCoconut
Finland121 Posts
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On April 05 2013 06:54 ekra wrote: how do you deal with banes? I know you can micro around them, but 1 mistake can easily cost you the game also, he won't necessarily need to micro his banes and you'll need to micro your infestors and your lings at different places As 1/1 lings survive to banes, its not really a problem. You can fungle them if there are a lot of banes. It can be pretty apm intensive since you have to manage 2 fronts at once, but if you dont like muta and you want to try something else, its very strong. (but you need a good multitasking, if you dont, just play defensive mass muta style, it will be better.) | ||
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Rizell
Sweden237 Posts
I have a huge problem in ZvT, especially against a T who goes reaper opening / or 15 cc into reactor hellions (or mines if he sees roaches). Then he gets third CC inbase very quick with like 1-2reapers and 4-6 hellions as his only units. He then transitions into mass biomine play with good macro and kills me midgame. I feel like i would either kill or get a decent advantage if i made a 28 warren and went for a roach bust.. but I dont want to do that everygame. I usually try to emulate life's zvt with quick speed, quick third, then transition into muta/ling and then ultras... but this greedy opening just kills me. Any advice? | ||
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rPontare
Sweden17 Posts
On April 06 2013 19:23 Rizell wrote: Mid-High Masters here. I have a huge problem in ZvT, especially against a T who goes reaper opening / or 15 cc into reactor hellions (or mines if he sees roaches). Then he gets third CC inbase very quick with like 1-2reapers and 4-6 hellions as his only units. He then transitions into mass biomine play with good macro and kills me midgame. I feel like i would either kill or get a decent advantage if i made a 28 warren and went for a roach bust.. but I dont want to do that everygame. I usually try to emulate life's zvt with quick speed, quick third, then transition into muta/ling and then ultras... but this greedy opening just kills me. Any advice? You are right about the roachpressure. Its is indeed powerful in this situation.The last two weeks i've been winning vs reaper openings almost every game. I know you were looking for something besides this but i can give my two cents and maybe we are going on at this differently. Mostly because i have not had any success versus this in any other way. I defend the reapers standard. 3 drones always follow and morphs to spores when damaged and if not proxy i make no lings. Just drones and one queen per hatch til 32 supply when i make roach warren. Continue droning until RW @ 50%, make 4 overlords and idle til completion. You will afford exactly 10 roaches which will sometimes do game-ending damage. Regardless of outcome i take my 3rd immediately after the 10 roaches is in production and i keep droning heavily untill the roaches are dead. If the damage done is critical i max out on roach at around 11:30 and finish it off. Same thing regardless of damage done if i face mech. If so, i also research OL-drop for efficiency. If the damage done is pretty low and i face BIO i go for the Life-style with muta/ling/bane into ultras. Two EVOs efter the 3rd is placed lets you keep up with the terran in upgrades nicely. I find that I am almost always able to completely saturate three bases and start the proper 1/1 and lair during the duration of the roach pressure which makes the situation desirable. In my opinion you should exploit the flaws in buildorders. When Terran open reaper into hellion this flat out kills the opponents at my (master) level. Versus reaper->mine->mech you as well are very far ahead. The worst case scenario is probably reaper->mines->BIO. With proper defense you never end the game but you always kill SCVs and delay mining while you drone up to 70. Go with it for a few days, its fun! Makes for a action-heavy game instead of that regular WoL play with the first real engagement at 12min. Cheers! | ||
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SharpFlex
Germany23 Posts
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Rizell
Sweden237 Posts
On April 07 2013 00:23 rPontare wrote: You are right about the roachpressure. Its is indeed powerful in this situation.The last two weeks i've been winning vs reaper openings almost every game. I know you were looking for something besides this but i can give my two cents and maybe we are going on at this differently. Mostly because i have not had any success versus this in any other way. I defend the reapers standard. 3 drones always follow and morphs to spores when damaged and if not proxy i make no lings. Just drones and one queen per hatch til 32 supply when i make roach warren. Continue droning until RW @ 50%, make 4 overlords and idle til completion. You will afford exactly 10 roaches which will sometimes do game-ending damage. Regardless of outcome i take my 3rd immediately after the 10 roaches is in production and i keep droning heavily untill the roaches are dead. If the damage done is critical i max out on roach at around 11:30 and finish it off. Same thing regardless of damage done if i face mech. If so, i also research OL-drop for efficiency. If the damage done is pretty low and i face BIO i go for the Life-style with muta/ling/bane into ultras. Two EVOs efter the 3rd is placed lets you keep up with the terran in upgrades nicely. I find that I am almost always able to completely saturate three bases and start the proper 1/1 and lair during the duration of the roach pressure which makes the situation desirable. In my opinion you should exploit the flaws in buildorders. When Terran open reaper into hellion this flat out kills the opponents at my (master) level. Versus reaper->mine->mech you as well are very far ahead. The worst case scenario is probably reaper->mines->BIO. With proper defense you never end the game but you always kill SCVs and delay mining while you drone up to 70. Go with it for a few days, its fun! Makes for a action-heavy game instead of that regular WoL play with the first real engagement at 12min. Cheers! Do you only do this if you scout gas opening? (I always 10 drone scout). Do you have any VOD's of any pro doing this? So i can steal the timings abit more accuratley. | ||
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