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On November 15 2012 18:21 Tobberoth wrote:
Is it just me, or is this more or less a direct copy of FilterSCs method, only that this has a spreadsheet while his is more detailed in the actual builds you use?
Anyways, it's a great method, the basic premise of making your "strategy" as simple as possible to be able to perfect your macro is great and, at least in my experience, the fastest way to improve consistently in SC.
The staircase is very different from FilterSC's method. The benchmarks are different, he promotes turtling while I promote aggression, and he dictates a specific build for the player to use, while I put emphasis on exploring the game in order to understand it more fundamentally.
Both methods I think are excellent. Which one is right for you depends on your style. TheStaircase is more jazz improvization, while FilterSC's method is more like the classical method for learning music. I'll do a video to get more in depth in less time, but I hope that answers your comment 
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I like the idea.
But I absolutely hate the execution.
When I open the document, I see tons of tons of informations. Is it really the proper way to teach someone by literally bombarding them with data/text/info? No.
All I see there is sort of identity crisis. The premise was good: simple and efficient system to improve. But simple was lost along the way and I don't see any valid reason why it had to be done. What is the point?
"TheStaircase" - do you really think this is a good name? Because it sounds dumb and cliche to me. And if something sounds dumb, Im not even gonna bother reading about it. I'd seriously consider reverting it back or name it differently, with something actually both connected to the idea of improvement and to playing SC II. You may think that I'm overeager about that type of things, but don't be fooled - this is digital information era, if you want to attract anyone and you make your first impression anything but best, then nobody will care about it. It is extremely important.
First post of this thread: what is the point of it? Best way would be to simply say what "level system" it is and why it is helpful. Instead I see a wall of text about things which almost no one cares about. Lan experiment? Psychology? Do you cater to scholars or novice players trying to learn the game? Is it really needed?
I don't want this idea to fall into oblivion...
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On November 16 2012 00:57 Czarnodziej wrote:
I like the idea.
But I absolutely hate the execution.
When I open the document, I see tons of tons of informations. Is it really the proper way to teach someone by literally bombarding them with data/text/info? No.
All I see there is sort of identity crisis. The premise was good: simple and efficient system to improve. But simple was lost along the way and I don't see any valid reason why it had to be done. What is the point?
"TheStaircase" - do you really think this is a good name? Because it sounds dumb and cliche to me. And if something sounds dumb, Im not even gonna bother reading about it. I'd seriously consider reverting it back or name it differently, with something actually both connected to the idea of improvement and to playing SC II. You may think that I'm overeager about that type of things, but don't be fooled - this is digital information era, if you want to attract anyone and you make your first impression anything but best, then nobody will care about it. It is extremely important.
First post of this thread: what is the point of it? Best way would be to simply say what "level system" it is and why it is helpful. Instead I see a wall of text about things which almost no one cares about. Lan experiment? Psychology? Do you cater to scholars or novice players trying to learn the game? Is it really needed?
I don't want this idea to fall into oblivion...
This man (or woman maybe, who knows! :p) is right from the beginning to the end of his (her) post.
At first, I went into "The Levels" with huge expectations to get better and stuff. When I opened the file, I was like "what the eff is this" and it ended I didn't use it and I opted to use Filter's tutorial combined with dApollo's.
I'm pretty sure there is a way to get this method better, but like Czarnodziej said, all I see is tons and tons of informations and stuff that the new StarCraft 2 player will not understand.
So I'm with Czarnodziej, the idea is VERY good since it gives the player that kind of "customization" in his game, instead of following a strict build order with benchmarks, but the way it is delivered... well, it's bad, I'm sorry!
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I think you're just judging a book by its cover to the extreme.
The OP is very interesting imo. That may be because I'm already interested in philosophy of mind, but I have no doubts that it is comprehensible and intriguing otherwise.
Your argument about the name... give me a break. It's short, to the point, and easy to remember. The logic behind TheLevels being confusing is because Blizz released a level system in HotS.
It's not exactly for the faint of heart either, it's more of a self-imposed challenge. You need to overly organize things if you want to get your macro and micro up to par. To be honest, I don't even like Filter's method because it doesn't endorse the creation of build orders. That creativity is essential for getting up to the next level. Honestly, I think Filter's method is a glorified timing attack tutorial.
All I'm getting out of your post is that you're someone who assumes that they know what everyone else wants.
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On November 16 2012 01:51 Antylamon wrote:
I think you're just judging a book by its cover to the extreme.
The you are wrong, because I've been following TheLevels for few months already.
On November 16 2012 01:51 Antylamon wrote:
The OP is very interesting imo. That may be because I'm already interested in philosophy of mind, but I have no doubts that it is comprehensible and intriguing otherwise.
Exactly like this.
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So you just ignored the rest of my post and replied to the first three sentences? -.-
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I ignored the rest because it is irrelevant to issues which I indicated.
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On October 10 2012 04:29 JaKaTaK wrote:
Everybody has their own style, this may not fit yours, and that is okay. I am not trying to create the canonical method for Starcraft 2 learning and improvement. What I am trying to do is facilitate the creation and development of a method for those players that aren't finding success with the standard method. If you are one of these players. TheStaircase may be for you.
I think this summarizes what I'm trying to say pretty well.
There are many people (about 9 pages worth) of people who are satisfied. You and Qube are not among them. I respect that, so please just drop the issue respectfully.
That said, a custom map, as Jak has suggested before, would be the best possible form of presentation. However, TheStaircase is still in development. I'm not sure how extensive that development is atm because I'm not Jak. Still, there are many features, including simplifications, that have been mentioned and are yet to be implemented.
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I don't like the direction this idea is going and I hope I'm wrong about it.
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Let me guess, you hate HotS too?
Just remember that you're not the only person in the world. You aren't Jak either, so you have no idea how this is going to end up.
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Har har!
Antylamon! How old are you? Calm the eff down.
The guy created a way to help people to learn StarCraft 2, I tried it, and I didn't like it. I'm not judging by saying it's crap or whatever. Czarnodziej said his opinion in a very very respectful way, and I did the same.
So, jeez, breathe a bit, calm down and relax. We are every rights to say if we like it or not, use it or not. We can also suggests he change some things on his system. Feedbacks are the only way to get people's opinion. If people are too shy to say what they really think, it's their problem.
You don't like Filter's tutorials and it's fine. You have the right to have your opinion, so are we!
I'm a grown man. I don't like the tool, and I said why. If Jak don't want to change it, I'm fine with that. I'll use other tools on the Internet, there is plenty. However, if you like TheStaircase, I'm perfectly fine with it and I respect that. As far as I'm concerned, by creating a tool, Jak is aware that he can get good and bad feedbacks. Czarnodziej's feedback and mine were not positive, so it's Jak's responsability to accept our opinions or not.
EDIT: Sorry if it may be not crystal clear, English isn't my Mother tongue. Sorry.
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Everything you mentioned was exactly what I was trying to say. 
I don't know where you got the idea that I'm angry at anyone. I was just stating what I believe to be true, which can (and is in some circumstances) horribly skewed. I'm sorry if it came off as insulting to anyone, but I was attempting to present the idea that people can have different ideas, which I can see didn't go very well.
I, as you say Jak is, am completely aware of negative and positive feedback. I generally accept both, but when people use harsh words such as "hate", and use language which conveys the (at times inadvertent) opinion that it is either their way or the highway, then I have a tendency to neglect it because of the appearance that they are emotionally swayed. Your opinion seemed much more valid than Czarnodziej's due to your choice of words, which is why I argued with it less.
On a side note, I thought Canadians learned English first then French?
Also, if your age question was serious, I'm 17. Due to the development of my brain, my perspective could easily be off.
Anywho, next topic. I unfortunately haven't been able to discern any specific ideas contributing to the organization and simplicity of TheStaircase. All I have seen thus far is petty insults with some valid complaints on the side with no suggestions on how to make it better. So, in your opinions, how exactly should we go about making it better? Due to the time you two put into complaining about it (I don't mean that in a negative light), I assume that you have the time to bring something productive to the table as well.
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On October 10 2012 10:48 JackDT wrote:Sounds a bit like: http://scdojo.tumblr.com/post/24330196542/learning-the-game-in-phases-some-quick-thoughtsBasically what Jinro brought up was the fact that the Prime Terrans learned the game in phases. If you look back at MarineKing, Polt, and to a lesser extent, Maru, they started out extremely cheesy. NesTea didn’t even get to make a Mutalisk in the season 2 finals against MKP, because he forced the issue before then. Polt used the first 1-1-1 ever seen on GOM, during Open Season 1. Both, after being “1 base wonders”, became known for their unit control and aggression. They still are, but both can finally play huge macro games. Neither player really has a big hole in any time period in the game. They learned the game in phases. This CAN BE (but isn’t always) a great way to learn the game.
Totally agree. I knew a guy back in BW who cheesed for months, but later became so much more.
Trying to learn everything at once and just playing to win may only be the best way for specifically talented players. Focussing on fun, autonomy and exploratory learning seems like a good idea for many.
On October 21 2012 03:48 JaKaTaK wrote:The map is correct, but it's likely out of date. We'll announce when a complete and accurate version is out.
Sounds good!
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On November 16 2012 03:43 IPS.Blue wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 03:48 JaKaTaK wrote:The map is correct, but it's likely out of date. We'll announce when a complete and accurate version is out. Sounds good!
Unfortunately that post was a while ago. I don't know if Jak has made any headway with a custom map as of late, but I guess we can wait for him to come by and confirm its progress or lack thereof.
EDIT: After a bit of thinking, I thought of the implications of designing such a map. It would require on-the-fly SQ calculations, which means the exact method in which income is measured would have to be determined. I have tried and failed to come up with anything. Anyone have any ideas on this?
I can't play the custom map already mentioned for ideas since I don't have an EU account. :/
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On November 16 2012 03:34 Antylamon wrote:Everything you mentioned was exactly what I was trying to say. I don't know where you got the idea that I'm angry at anyone. I was just stating what I believe to be true, which can (and is in some circumstances) horribly skewed. I'm sorry if it came off as insulting to anyone, but I was attempting to present the idea that people can have different ideas, which I can see didn't go very well. I, as you say Jak is, am completely aware of negative and positive feedback. I generally accept both, but when people use harsh words such as "hate", and use language which conveys the (at times inadvertent) opinion that it is either their way or the highway, then I have a tendency to neglect it because of the appearance that they are emotionally swayed. Your opinion seemed much more valid than Czarnodziej's due to your choice of words, which is why I argued with it less. On a side note, I thought Canadians learned English first then French? Also, if your age question was serious, I'm 17. Due to the development of my brain, my perspective could easily be off.
It's fine! Let's put this behind us!
To answer your side note, yes, Canadians learn English first, of course, but when you're living in Québec, French is the primary language  well, it isn't anymore because of Montreal (a bit more than 50% English)!
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On November 16 2012 03:34 Antylamon wrote:
Anywho, next topic. I unfortunately haven't been able to discern any specific ideas contributing to the organization and simplicity of TheStaircase. All I have seen thus far is petty insults with some valid complaints on the side with no suggestions on how to make it better. So, in your opinions, how exactly should we go about making it better?
For starters, you could read my post once again. It was composed in a particular way, hence the prevalent question marks.
And cut the attitude, you are preaching about emotions of others and such, yet you do not present the polite tone ("petty insults"?). I don't care how old are you or what stage of development your brain is. There is a convention of discussion in here and either you comply or be silent.
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On November 16 2012 04:07 Czarnodziej wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 03:34 Antylamon wrote:
Anywho, next topic. I unfortunately haven't been able to discern any specific ideas contributing to the organization and simplicity of TheStaircase. All I have seen thus far is petty insults with some valid complaints on the side with no suggestions on how to make it better. So, in your opinions, how exactly should we go about making it better? For starters, you could read my post once again. It was composed in a particular way, hence the prevalent question marks. And cut the attitude, you are preaching about emotions of others and such, yet you do not present the polite tone ("petty insults"?). I don't care how old are you or what stage of development your brain is. There is a convention of discussion in here and either you comply or be silent.
I was referring to myself when I mentioned "petty insults." I apologize that it came out the wrong way. I was also stating what I percieve to be true, which can easily be horribly skewed.
Also, I only stated my age because Qube asked. I am not asking anyone to care about it.
The idea of "comply or be silent" is one I disagree with because of the presence of positive and negative feedback. For example, you are not complying with TheStaircase, you are disagreeing with it. However, does that eliminate your discussion completely? Of course not.
Also, I reread your post about hating the execution multiple times before my recent apologetic post. Please enlighten me.
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Wow, thanks everyone for all this feedback
Simplification:
I am working on this, I only have so much time per day and have limited skills. We do have someone working on the custom map right now. So far about 4 different people have tried and given up or dissappeared on this particular endeavor. It seems very difficult to get SQ, the other benchmarks aren't anywhere near as difficult to measure.
I am creating a video series to guide players through TheStaircase (as people would most often rather watch a video than read a paragraph). This will definitely help.
thejakatak.com will be a huge improvement over the spreadsheet, Mute and I are working on ways to present the data in a less overwhelming way.
With respect to the different benchmarks that have been incorporated into TheStaircase over the past 6.5 months:
1. SQ was not enough, it keeps track of spending, but we found that energy managment and supply management were both critical skills to develop that were being missed because they were not included.
2. We tried a variety of methods regarding difficulty level. Right now, I really like the idea of league goal because it is much more tangible than something like "easy, medium, hard" difficulty. Making everything the same difficulty level and not encouraging the player to select the degree of difficulty they think is reasonable given the time they have to put into improvement is not reasonable IMO and would drive players away.
Other than these two things, I don't see any more "desimplification". As Antylamon said, I would be interested in hearing your proposals for presentation of data and simplification that we are not already working on.
EDIT: Ninja'd a few times...
Let's keep this constructive please. What are your IDEAS?!
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Why don't we create our own kind of SQ which is easier to determine with a custom map? It would take some work and some calibration, but it could be worth it if SQ is too hard to calculate without the score summary data. Plus, average income isn't explicitly listed in the HotS score summary if I am not mistaken, making it much harder to find SQ.
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On November 16 2012 04:25 Antylamon wrote:
Why don't we create our own kind of SQ which is easier to determine with a custom map? It would take some work and some calibration, but it could be worth it if SQ is too hard to calculate without the score summary data. Plus, average income isn't explicitly listed in the HotS score summary if I am not mistaken, making it much harder to find SQ.
Okay, we'd have to write a program that takes the average income and average unspent from the replay and calculates it. Then we can analyze masses of games to get a feel for the skill level of each league and adjust the numbers to fit? I think the idea of creating a revamped version of SQ that isn't reliant on the score screen is a really great idea. Does anyone know WhatTheFat personally? Also I'll contact Orek, this seems like it would be up his ally and he might be interested. Start putting out the word and contacting people you know with coding skills. Let's make a new metric
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EPT
