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@Uncreative_Troll
Before we begin, I want to be clear that I am not upset, or emotionally off center in any way. I respectfully disagree with your criticism and will address all of your points.
My EAMP and SQ averages will not increase significantly until after i'm done the program. The reason for this is that as soon as I reach the level where I am super comfortable with a certain set of units I increase the complexity and decision making of what I am doing by adding a new unit. If I wanted to increase my SQ, I would set a higher goal. My goal is 90, so my average is around 90. As far as EAPM is concerned, its not something that is important to me and I do not think it means my mechanics are poor.
Like I have said before, this is a work in progress, and I am the primary guinea pig. You can see by the Google Doc. That there were many different methods and versions being tested since September 14th.
1 from 9/14-10/6 (within which I switched to HotS)
1 from 10/7-10/12 (as I went back to WoL because HotS was too volatile and my rank in HotS was said to "not count")
1 from 10/13-10/16
1 from 10/17-10/26 (during which there was a huge overhaul on TheCore (0.5) which was very difficult to adjust to)
1 from 10/27-11/21
1 from 11/21-present
These last two version have been particularly effective. Moving my league from silver to platinum in 1 month. The question is, why did I drop into silver when I was in gold?
On 10/26 I started a new training initiative in which I would leave the game if I was hard supply blocked or maxed out on nexus energy (with some common sense exceptions). At first I had to leave many games, (more than half), but after about a month of training using this initiative, I almost never get hard supply blocked or maxed out on energy, even when introducing the sentry, which is a attention intensive unit and would in the past have lead to many supply blocks and nexuses on max energy.
Jak might have improved with his method but with around 740 games of training (in ~11 weeks) his improvements neither paid really off (league) nor made him a good player in the fields he concentrated on.
I have made huge improvements in the fields I'm concentrating on. I thought that would be clear. SQ, Supply Blocks, and Energy management are the fields i'm concentrating on, not APM or EAPM. Also, as I explained previously, improving does not mean that these numbers will go up, but that I will be able to hit them with increasingly complex unit variety and decision making.
Decision making is not harmed by using TheStaircase, it is enhanced. It pushes you outside of the box and encourages you to look for solutions outside the status-quo. It works the creative and problem solving aspects of the game instead of the rote memorization of what has been decided is true at the moment. This method is for the kind of people who enjoy creative thinking, problem solving, and exploratory learning. If you want the fastest way to a higher league then the conventional method will likely serve your purposes better. The goal of the staircase is to create an alternative way to improve, and have fun doing it. If you're not enjoying this method, than don't use it.
He really isn't focused on reaching a higher league and even did stuff like losing on purpose (<- not during his public training time) to start with a lower league again after he started with Level 1 once again because of a change.
Are you ever going to let that go? Losing games does not slow the progression of a players skill. Give a Master's player a Bronze account and they'll likely have it back to Master's in a day. Gaining skill is what's most important for getting into Masters league, not ladder points. Short term loss; Long term gain. I lost games for an hour before streaming in an attempt to detach my need to win and have a better mentality towards improving. By playing against weaker opponents to start off I was less stressed about winning and more focused on improving. (Although the method I came up with on the 26th turned out to be much more effective for developing this mentality). Of course I'm focused on reaching a higher league. I'm focused on reaching Master's league, and I'm not going to get there with short term thinking.
desRow Canada. November 18 2012 01:38. Posts 2221
You should put aside guides and tutoring for a while and grind ladder hardcore. Took a look at your vods and your mechanics/decision making was way off. You obviously have the patience and are pretty good at helping others but your own ranking is hurting you imho.
This comment did not hurt or offend me, actually I responded to it with thanks. Its good advice, I do need to work on my mechanics/decision making. My rank is hurting me. I have prioritized improving over tool work. Although, I do disagree with the mentality that more games = more improvement. Since I cut my hours of practice to 4 from 5 I'm actually improving much faster than before.
But considering how much effort he put in it, it really raises the question if he should keep on doing his own system when he want to improve efficient. After all he already reached Gold easily (without gas!) when he started.
You can't conclude that his method sucks based on a single person who actually should shine the most as he designed it himself and should notice if it really works for him the best way or not. People can still improve certain aspects of their play with TheStaircase but it's save to assume that it won't work for everyone and that you should stop at a certain point in time (doing only this method) when you want to improve as fast as possible cause it's not all about mechanics and macro. It's most likely easier to become decent in a few skills than becoming a master in one to make up for other missing skills.
These comments seem to be the core of your critique. That I should abandon my method because I'm not improving as efficiently as I would were I using the conventional method. And while I do want to have an account in the master's league to bolster my reputation, that is not my primary goal.
I am trying to create a method of learning that will get more people into playing Starcraft that would otherwise struggle and dismiss it as "too hard" or "too complicated" or "no fun". I have always struggled with playing Starcraft. I have a hard time multitasking, and get distracted very easily, but I love the challenge of doing things that I'm not naturally talented at in order to overcome and strengthen my weaknesses. I found the idea for this method on accident and have put a lot of work into it to make it much more refined and effective (and I will continue to do so).
I think the reason why this idea has been overlooked and written off is because most people who do so are coming from the perspective of players who are naturally gifted and games like Starcraft. Players that can just "grind out tons of games" and are still successful. The perspective of the struggling player is written off and overlooked in the same way this method is. They are told "just learn a build and grind a ton of games" even when they've been doing so, getting frustrated and not improving.
You say "it won't work for everyone and that you should stop at a certain point in time (doing only this method) when you want to improve as fast as possible cause it's not all about mechanics and macro." I agree with part of your statement. This won't work for everyone, but the point that someone should stop using TheStaircase is when they're no longer enjoying the challenge and improvement that comes with it. A player that is enjoying Starcraft in the gold league is worth 100 master's league players that are bitter, elitist, and complaining about balance. I want to help create a wave of players with positive attitudes and good mentalities that will tell everyone they know what an awesome game Starcraft 2 is and will in turn teach others to have positive attitudes and good mentalities. Many people are skeptical, and rightly so. What I'm doing is ambitious, unorthodox, and maybe impossible, but that doesn't mean I'm going to give up on it.
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Quick question.
The method to check for meeting the goal is ingame/over replays and the post game statistics? Means this is not a tool or an addon but a self-controlled method?
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Maybe I am missing the computer science definition for tool, but to me, a tool is something you use, to do something you want.
That being said, I would describe this as a "self-controlled method" also. It is not an addon or 3rd party program.
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Amazing post, Jak. That should be added to the OP to dispel any misinformed/biased arguments.
And as a side note, the only reason I still play Starcraft is because it's fun. Whenever it lost its luster temporarily, I just stopped playing for a while and picked it back up later. It's not the only reason I've done that (*coughschoolcough*), but it is the most common reason. Even then I still frequent TL. For example, I got frustrated at some point because I was trying to wrap my head around what do in what MUs as Terran because I don't like constant drops, so I quit and came back some time later as a Zerg.
On the flip side, my hiatuses are also why I'm still Diamond.
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My EAMP and SQ averages will not increase significantly until after i'm done the program. The reason for this is that as soon as I reach the level where I am super comfortable with a certain set of units I increase the complexity and decision making of what I am doing by adding a new unit. If I wanted to increase my SQ, I would set a higher goal. My goal is 90, so my average is around 90. As far as EAPM is concerned, its not something that is important to me and I do not think it means my mechanics are poor.
I didn't said that your SQ stagnates:
His SQ improved for sure.
I never wrote that i consider a not increasing EAPM as a sign for not improving mechanics. However it's not a sign of improvement in general either.
These last two version have been particularly effective. Moving my league from silver to platinum in 1 month. The question is, why did I drop into silver when I was in gold?
On 10/26 I started a new training initiative in which I would leave the game if I was hard supply blocked or maxed out on nexus energy (with some common sense exceptions). At first I had to leave many games, (more than half)
That's not really an achievement when you leave games like that and could be in gold anyway (since 11 weeks) without using gas at all.
Like I have said before, this is a work in progress, and I am the primary guinea pig. You can see by the Google Doc. That there were many different methods and versions being tested since September 14th.
1 from 9/14-10/6 (within which I switched to HotS)
1 from 10/7-10/12 (as I went back to WoL because HotS was too volatile and my rank in HotS was said to "not count")
1 from 10/13-10/16
1 from 10/17-10/26 (during which there was a huge overhaul on TheCore (0.5) which was very difficult to adjust to)
1 from 10/27-11/21
1 from 11/21-present
These last two version have been particularly effective. Moving my league from silver to platinum in 1 month. The question is, why did I drop into silver when I was in gold?
...
I have made huge improvements in the fields I'm concentrating on. I thought that would be clear. SQ, Supply Blocks, and Energy management are the fields i'm concentrating on, not APM or EAPM. Also, as I explained previously, improving does not mean that these numbers will go up, but that I will be able to hit them with increasingly complex unit variety and decision making.
You can't really use that as an excuse. After all you still trained for 11 weeks and should improve your mechanics while doing so. But still:
desRow Canada. November 18 2012 01:38. Posts 2221
You should put aside guides and tutoring for a while and grind ladder hardcore. Took a look at your vods and your mechanics/decision making was way off. ...
Decision making is not harmed by using TheStaircase, it is enhanced. It pushes you outside of the box and encourages you to look for solutions outside the status-quo. It works the creative and problem solving aspects of the game instead of the rote memorization of what has been decided is true at the moment. This method is for the kind of people who enjoy creative thinking, problem solving, and exploratory learning.
This method doesn't teach people how to react. It's pretty much always slower when you try to figure out something for yourself instead of getting knowledge by people with a better understanding of the subject.
You don't have all options to react to the units/strategies of the opponent. For example you won't have Vikings for quite some time. You will lack of supply efficient units/possibilities to react and thus are kinda forced to be more aggressive, cause your situation will usually get worse as the game goes on during the most levels.
You shall A-move during many levels. That takes away quite a bit of decision making as well.
It seems like it didn't really work for you:
desRow Canada. November 18 2012 01:38. Posts 2221
You should put aside guides and tutoring for a while and grind ladder hardcore. Took a look at your vods and your mechanics/decision making was way off. ...
Are you ever going to let that go? Losing games does not slow the progression of a players skill. ...
Gaining skill is what's most important for getting into Masters league, not ladder points.
Please read again what i wrote...+ Show Spoiler +...
He really isn't focused on reaching a higher league and even did stuff like losing on purpose (<- not during his public training time) to start with a lower league again after he started with Level 1 once again because of a change. But considering how much effort he put in it, it really raises the question if he should keep on doing his own system when he want to improve efficient. After all he already reached Gold easily (without gas!) when he started.
It wasn't my intention to say that losing games on purpose hurts the progression of that players skill. I tried to say that people shouldn't focus on your league alone while taking a look if your method works out for you.
I'm focused on reaching Master's league, and I'm not going to get there with short term thinking.
11 weeks... and you were Gold easiliy without using Gas when you started.
Show nested quote +desRow Canada. November 18 2012 01:38. Posts 2221
You should put aside guides and tutoring for a while and grind ladder hardcore. Took a look at your vods and your mechanics/decision making was way off. You obviously have the patience and are pretty good at helping others but your own ranking is hurting you imho. This comment did not hurt or offend me, actually I responded to it with thanks. Its good advice, I do need to work on my mechanics/decision making. My rank is hurting me. I have prioritized improving over tool work. Although, I do disagree with the mentality that more games = more improvement. Since I cut my hours of practice to 4 from 5 I'm actually improving much faster than before.
After around 740 games in 11 weeks someone who can judge mechanics and decision making points out that you should start to grind ladder hardcore to improve. (I personally assume that he didn't know that you train already...) According to you Decision making is... enhanced. by TheStaircase (and you quite often note how important mechanics are), yet it didn't seem to have paid off. Your personal feelings doesn't matter when you try to find out if something is efficient for you or not...
I think the reason why this idea has been overlooked and written off is because most people who do so are coming from the perspective of players who are naturally gifted and games like Starcraft. Players that can just "grind out tons of games" and are still successful. The perspective of the struggling player is written off and overlooked in the same way this method is. They are told "just learn a build and grind a ton of games" even when they've been doing so, getting frustrated and not improving.
I always write about efficiency and improving as fast as possible. I guess the reason why this method is overlooked is because:
JaKaTaK United States. November 28 2012 05:16. Posts 733
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If you want the fastest way to a higher league then the conventional method will likely serve your purposes better.
...
I like that you acknowledge it finally.
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On November 28 2012 09:04 Uncreative_Troll wrote:Show nested quote +My EAMP and SQ averages will not increase significantly until after i'm done the program. The reason for this is that as soon as I reach the level where I am super comfortable with a certain set of units I increase the complexity and decision making of what I am doing by adding a new unit. If I wanted to increase my SQ, I would set a higher goal. My goal is 90, so my average is around 90. As far as EAPM is concerned, its not something that is important to me and I do not think it means my mechanics are poor. I didn't said that your SQ stagnates: I never wrote that i consider a not increasing EAPM as a sign for not improving mechanics. However it's not a sign of improvement in general either.
You appeared to imply that in some portions of your post.
Either way, honest mistake in interpretation.
Show nested quote +These last two version have been particularly effective. Moving my league from silver to platinum in 1 month. The question is, why did I drop into silver when I was in gold? Show nested quote +On 10/26 I started a new training initiative in which I would leave the game if I was hard supply blocked or maxed out on nexus energy (with some common sense exceptions). At first I had to leave many games, (more than half) That's not really an achievement when you leave games like that and could be in gold anyway (since 11 weeks) without using gas at all.
Of course it isn't an achievement. It's experimentation with how to improve.
Show nested quote +Like I have said before, this is a work in progress, and I am the primary guinea pig. You can see by the Google Doc. That there were many different methods and versions being tested since September 14th.
1 from 9/14-10/6 (within which I switched to HotS)
1 from 10/7-10/12 (as I went back to WoL because HotS was too volatile and my rank in HotS was said to "not count")
1 from 10/13-10/16
1 from 10/17-10/26 (during which there was a huge overhaul on TheCore (0.5) which was very difficult to adjust to)
1 from 10/27-11/21
1 from 11/21-present
These last two version have been particularly effective. Moving my league from silver to platinum in 1 month. The question is, why did I drop into silver when I was in gold?
...
I have made huge improvements in the fields I'm concentrating on. I thought that would be clear. SQ, Supply Blocks, and Energy management are the fields i'm concentrating on, not APM or EAPM. Also, as I explained previously, improving does not mean that these numbers will go up, but that I will be able to hit them with increasingly complex unit variety and decision making. You can't really use that as an excuse. After all you still trained for 11 weeks and should improve your mechanics while doing so. But still: Show nested quote +desRow Canada. November 18 2012 01:38. Posts 2221
You should put aside guides and tutoring for a while and grind ladder hardcore. Took a look at your vods and your mechanics/decision making was way off. ...
Please don't be too egotistic.
I'm assuming that Jak improves at a different rate than you. Even so, I don't see how you can deny that all of the factors listed don't have some impact.
Show nested quote +Decision making is not harmed by using TheStaircase, it is enhanced. It pushes you outside of the box and encourages you to look for solutions outside the status-quo. It works the creative and problem solving aspects of the game instead of the rote memorization of what has been decided is true at the moment. This method is for the kind of people who enjoy creative thinking, problem solving, and exploratory learning. This method doesn't teach people how to react. It's pretty much always slower when you try to figure out something for yourself instead of getting knowledge by people with a better understanding of the subject. You don't have all options to react to the units/strategies of the opponent. For example you won't have Vikings for quite some time. You will lack of supply efficient units/possibilities to react and thus are kinda forced to be more aggressive, cause your situation will usually get worse as the game goes on during the most levels. You shall A-move during many levels. That takes away quite a bit of decision making as well. It seems like it didn't really work for you: Show nested quote +desRow Canada. November 18 2012 01:38. Posts 2221
You should put aside guides and tutoring for a while and grind ladder hardcore. Took a look at your vods and your mechanics/decision making was way off. ...
It's true that decision making is not directly covered by TheStaircase, but look a little deeper and it is covered indirectly.
When you learn something for yourself, you will remember it much more easily.
Plus, how can you complain that decision making isn't explored as much in early levels when there is no micro at all during the first levels? It's another one of the things taken away which simplifies TheStaircase; makes it less intimidating to a newcomer. How can you complain about that?
Show nested quote +Are you ever going to let that go? Losing games does not slow the progression of a players skill. ...
Gaining skill is what's most important for getting into Masters league, not ladder points. Please read again what i wrote... + Show Spoiler +...
He really isn't focused on reaching a higher league and even did stuff like losing on purpose (<- not during his public training time) to start with a lower league again after he started with Level 1 once again because of a change. But considering how much effort he put in it, it really raises the question if he should keep on doing his own system when he want to improve efficient. After all he already reached Gold easily (without gas!) when he started. It wasn't my intention to say that losing games on purpose hurts the progression of that players skill. I tried to say that people shouldn't focus on your league alone while taking a look if your method works out for you.
Jak seems to have interpreted the majority of your post solely as criticism on TheStaircase. I disagree. I think, for most of the post at least, that you meant that Jak might need to use a different improvement method.
Still, you should mind your own business. Jak will improve the way he wants to improve. It won't hinder people's readiness to start using TheStaircase because there are very many people who have clearly improved with TheStaircase. Then there's the experimentation factors yet again.
Show nested quote +I'm focused on reaching Master's league, and I'm not going to get there with short term thinking.
11 weeks... and you were Gold easiliy without using Gas when you started.
Different rates of improvement, plus experimentation factors. If I'm not mistaken, Jak also tests with other races as well.
Show nested quote +desRow Canada. November 18 2012 01:38. Posts 2221
You should put aside guides and tutoring for a while and grind ladder hardcore. Took a look at your vods and your mechanics/decision making was way off. You obviously have the patience and are pretty good at helping others but your own ranking is hurting you imho. This comment did not hurt or offend me, actually I responded to it with thanks. Its good advice, I do need to work on my mechanics/decision making. My rank is hurting me. I have prioritized improving over tool work. Although, I do disagree with the mentality that more games = more improvement. Since I cut my hours of practice to 4 from 5 I'm actually improving much faster than before. After around 740 games in 11 weeks someone who can judge mechanics and decision making points out that you should start to grind ladder hardcore to improve. (I personally assume that he didn't know that you train already...) According to you by TheStaircase (and you quite often note how important mechanics are), yet it didn't seem to have paid off. Your personal feelings doesn't matter when you try to find out if something is efficient for you or not...
That is somewhat misled. Why does TheStaircase work for some people? For the most part, not because it's efficient. Because it's fun. Most methods can be mind-numbingly tedious. TheStaircase isn't. However insistent you are that efficiency is the only thing contributing to its success, psychology is too. Why else is there so much about psychology in the OP?
Besides, Jak hasn't reached the micro steps yet, if I'm not mistaken.
I think the reason why this idea has been overlooked and written off is because most people who do so are coming from the perspective of players who are naturally gifted and games like Starcraft. Players that can just "grind out tons of games" and are still successful. The perspective of the struggling player is written off and overlooked in the same way this method is. They are told "just learn a build and grind a ton of games" even when they've been doing so, getting frustrated and not improving.
I always write about efficiency and improving as fast as possible. I guess the reason why this method is overlooked is because:
Show nested quote +JaKaTaK United States. November 28 2012 05:16. Posts 733
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If you want the fastest way to a higher league then the conventional method will likely serve your purposes better.
... I like that you acknowledge it finally.
Did he ever point to the contrary? Just because Jak didn't explicitly say he agrees with Desrow doesn't mean he disagrees.
As a final note, I stand by one of my previous points: mind your own business. You can constructively criticize TheStaircase, but criticizing Jak for something as trivial as this is unneccessary.
/topic please
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Including so many quotes really causes ugly looking posts, doesn't it? 
Unfortunatly I will do it again:
Please don't be too egotistic. Please explain that one to me. When you don't want to much offtopic stuff here I am fine with PMs, too.
... I don't see how you can deny that all of the factors listed don't have some impact. I didn't try to say that those factors don't have any impact at all but that someone should still improve more after 11 weeks of focussed training despite of those changes.
It's true that decision making is not directly covered by TheStaircase, but look a little deeper and it is covered indirectly. I agree that it is covered indirectly but it's definitely limited at the start/middle which makes TheStaircase an not optimal approach to train this skillset which is why I had to respond to Jak's claim that his method "enhances" and "doesn't harm" Decision making.
It takes quite a while to get access to all important units so I don't think this problem only affects starters.
Still, you should mind your own business. Jak will improve the way he wants to improve. It won't hinder people's readiness to start using TheStaircase because there are very many people who have clearly improved with TheStaircase. Then there's the experimentation factors yet again. I responded to these posts:
asdf3455 November 27 2012 14:15. Posts 9 Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 17:33 asdf3455 wrote:
Hi, can I ask you what league you are with each race? And how many games have you played since release? Hi, maybe it was not obvious that I was asking you Jakatak.
JaKaTaK United States. November 27 2012 23:14. Posts 733
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@asdf
I fail to see what this has to do with TheStaircase. I explained his league situation and started to take a look on his improvements because of this. The last paragraph (of my first post November 28 2012 03:41, page 11) was meant to prevent comments such as <You shouldn't make big conclusions based on a single person> which wasn't what my intention was anyway and to note that I don't want to say that no one should use this method.
I personally don't care about Jaks personal choices and wonder how your effort to spreak for Jak is less "mind your own business" than my posts?
That is somewhat misled. Why does TheStaircase work for some people? For the most part, not because it's efficient. Because it's fun. Most methods can be mind-numbingly tedious. TheStaircase isn't. However insistent you are that efficiency is the only thing contributing to its success, psychology is too. Why else is there so much about psychology in the OP? I wasn't writing about why some people do TheStaircase. The paragraph you quoted was my response to Jak who seemingly tried to refute the weird case that desRow told Jak to train his micro/decision making (after 11 weeks of training) in a way which seems to look like desRow thought Jak didn't really try yet. That he personal don't mind what that post implied doesn't refute his lack of visual success to improve in those skillsets.
Just because Jak didn't explicitly say he agrees with Desrow doesn't mean he disagrees. That's indeed true.
Besides, Jak hasn't reached the micro steps yet, if I'm not mistaken. He has changed his method quite a few times since you looked the last time. You don't finish the macro focussed levels (with all units) anymore before you start to micro.
Did he ever point to the contrary? That's an ugly task. Out of my mind I only remember the opening post of TheJaKataK thread:
JaKaTaK United States. June 01 2012 03:41.
...
Macro>Strategy>Micro
...
I was convinced that this method was one of the fastest, if not the fastest way to improve at sc2.
...
The reason why I wrote "finally" is because there were quite a few long discussions between him and 7mk, rikter and me.
I also remember that he wrote that time will tell how good his method is. It should be somewhere buried in TheJaKaTak thread.
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I think some core issues are getting danced around a bit.
"Efficient" is meaningless in this context.
Jak is experimenting with the technique, starting over, etc. Saying "1 league higher in 11 weeks" is disingenuous at best. It's like saying that traditional methods don't work because someone keeps starting from scratch with new builds or even races.
Short-term vs Long-term
More broadly: The most efficient way to get to low Plat is different from the most efficient way to GM, which is different from developing an intuitive sense of the game. In chess, the Master teachers start you learning incredibly simple positions: king vs king and a pawn... king vs king and rook... etc. In this sense, TheStaircase has centuries of chess training on its side. In terms of learning theory, this is called an incremental learning model, and it generally produces more good students more consistently, with a higher skill cap, and who are better under pressure.
Happiness / Love of the Game
If you can stay in love with Starcraft, and still use traditional methods of training, go for it. I can't, and I've seen countless people complaining about SC2. Many of my friends who are hardcore gamers even refuse to pick it up because of the sheer steepness of the RTS learning curve. (macro, scouting, memorizing tech trees, builds, etc).
tl;dr: It's a low-stress, long-term-focused training strategy that encourages a deeper understanding of each unit and a love of the game. *Its creation is still in progress*, so direct comparisons are premature. "More efficient" methods may be possible for shorter-term progress, but they do so at the expense of core aspects of this method, and are geared toward different people.
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What he said ^
In other news, the first version of TheStaircase Custom map is out and ready for testing. Just search TheStaircase In custom games and test it out. More features will be available soon! Please leave all bug reports here and ColdLogic will get to them as he has time.
Thanks :D
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I think I can wrap up this conversation in this post. There isn't as much to argue about now that your points have been clarified. They were a bit vague at first.
(Spoiler'd the quotes in an attempt to make it look better)
On November 28 2012 11:33 Uncreative_Troll wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Please don't be too egotistic. Please explain that one to me. When you don't want to much offtopic stuff here I am fine with PMs, too.
By egotistic I meant self-centered. It seems to me that you weren't thinking about possible differences between you and Jak when you said this:
+ Show Spoiler +After around 740 games in 11 weeks someone who can judge mechanics and decision making points out that you should start to grind ladder hardcore to improve. (I personally assume that he didn't know that you train already...) According to you Decision making is... enhanced. by TheStaircase (and you quite often note how important mechanics are), yet it didn't seem to have paid off. Your personal feelings doesn't matter when you try to find out if something is efficient for you or not...
Thus I was not referring to your response to asdf, as you said here:
+ Show Spoiler +Still, you should mind your own business. Jak will improve the way he wants to improve. It won't hinder people's readiness to start using TheStaircase because there are very many people who have clearly improved with TheStaircase. Then there's the experimentation factors yet again. I responded to these posts: asdf3455 November 27 2012 14:15. Posts 9 Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 17:33 asdf3455 wrote:
Hi, can I ask you what league you are with each race? And how many games have you played since release? Hi, maybe it was not obvious that I was asking you Jakatak. JaKaTaK United States. November 27 2012 23:14. Posts 733
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@asdf
I fail to see what this has to do with TheStaircase. I explained his league situation and started to take a look on his improvements because of this. The last paragraph (of my first post November 28 2012 03:41, page 11) was meant to prevent comments such as <You shouldn't make big conclusions based on a single person> which wasn't what my intention was anyway and to note that I don't want to say that no one should use this method. I personally don't care about Jaks personal choices and wonder how your effort to spreak for Jak is less "mind your own business" than my posts?
Also, you're bit about me speaking for Jak is harsh. >.>
I consider backing Jak up a friendly action rather than a nosy one.
+ Show Spoiler +... I don't see how you can deny that all of the factors listed don't have some impact. I didn't try to say that those factors don't have any impact at all but that someone should still improve more after 11 weeks of focussed training despite of those changes.
I agree that it's somewhat odd, but maybe you underestimate the impact of the frequent changes. Or maybe you're right and TheStaircase isn't the best improvement method for Jak. Even if you are right, he's kind of stuck with it, considering he's the creator.
+ Show Spoiler +It's true that decision making is not directly covered by TheStaircase, but look a little deeper and it is covered indirectly. I agree that it is covered indirectly but it's definitely limited at the start/middle which makes TheStaircase an not optimal approach to train this skillset which is why I had to respond to Jak's claim that his method "enhances" and "doesn't harm" Decision making. It takes quite a while to get access to all important units so I don't think this problem only affects starters.
It only takes quite a while if you need to take quite a while. If you're aiming for GM and you are Masters, then you should be able to get through the first few steps very easily.
I don't think that it's a bad thing that TheStaircase is not optimal for improving decision making because it primarily focuses on macro and micro, but to each his own.
+ Show Spoiler +Besides, Jak hasn't reached the micro steps yet, if I'm not mistaken. He has changed his method quite a few times since you looked the last time. You don't finish the macro focussed levels (with all units) anymore before you start to micro.
Actually, I look at it frequently.
After looking at TheStaircase doc again, apparently I've been misunderstanding it for a while. I assumed that it meant to say that you go through the macro step, then go back to the first step, except with micro/multitasking. Oh well, I guess I'm going to go backwards a bit.
That's an ugly task. Out of my mind I only remember the opening post of TheJaKataK thread: Show nested quote +JaKaTaK United States. June 01 2012 03:41.
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Macro>Strategy>Micro
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I was convinced that this method was one of the fastest, if not the fastest way to improve at sc2.
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The reason why I wrote "finally" is because there were quite a few long discussions between him and 7mk, rikter and me. I also remember that he wrote that time will tell how good his method is. It should be somewhere buried in TheJaKaTak thread.
I think that example is a bit vague. He's not saying that TheStaircase is the fastest, he's saying that the central pattern is the fastest.
This post is a complex version of what Jak was probably trying to say, and the thread was made a little over a year ago.
In my experience, Jak is somewhat modest about his creations, most notably on TheCore thread, saying things along the lines of "I don't want to call it the best layout possible, but it's the most efficient I've seen so far." And I agree. It's hard not to agree that TheCore is incredibly efficient, no matter what learning curve complaints you can think of. Good luck finding anything on that 100-page thread, though. (If you're taking that too literally, don't even think about trying.)
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I don't mind replying to criticism, but I try to shift topics when I think things might get ugly. Fortunately almost all of my doubts were created by miscommunication.
I think some of that misinterpretation came from these recent posts:
On November 27 2012 05:38 Slayerb0y wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Please don't hate on me as I am in school right now and have been unable to watch the videos. But from what I've read so far it seems like a good idea. I see 1 thing that is a little under identified.
Most people playing Starcraft have a very good video game experience(they have played their fare share) and have a have a eaiser time catching on to games then say someone who has bairly used a computer. With this in mind I feel that limiting what players can do too much also limits how fast and how much their game knowledge and general playing can improve.
Eg. If you go through bronze and never take a gass. Then when you hit silver you start taking gas and have to learn a ton of things such as when to take it. How to balance it etc. A bronze player at any level should be able to take gas and just through playing will be a little more comfortable with the things involved in this. Then when they hit silver they will be at an increased rate of improvement. Ofc this is in MY opinion that any video game player has enoungh skills already to handle a variety of new things in a new game.
main point is that make sure not to limit the game as to limit growth. People are very smart and can improve at a suprising Rate
On November 27 2012 07:18 Slayerb0y wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ahh I see where you are comming from. I feel that I left out something I should clarify. during an sc2 game. While limiting the things you are doing could leave you not working to your full current potential. If feel that a player should be able to work on something like mineral income and simple gas income at the same rate as if they were just doing mineral income due to the abilities and learning Potential of the player. Maximize the amount of things you Are able to do during a game to maximize growth. Simply put things too simple may be beneficial and effiecient. But not to the max.
Possibly there was somewhere that your ideas overlapped somehow, causing at least me to become confused.
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(It's easier to make a new post rather than edit this in to my previous post... long post is long)
On November 28 2012 13:05 JaKaTaK wrote:
In other news, the first version of TheStaircase Custom map is out and ready for testing. Just search TheStaircase In custom games and test it out. More features will be available soon! Please leave all bug reports here and ColdLogic will get to them as he has time.
Thanks :D
I started with this...
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ck6z8.png) 5 confused minutes later: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RQvqo.png) Aw, no victowy scween. :[ On the bright side, PvP is a lot more fun this way. Plus I get ludicrous SQ when I decide not to mine and only attack the opponent!
Same thing after a couple of retries.
EDIT: Apparently it's not the case for player as Zerg. It might be because creep blocks structures.
Additionally, the AI is always Protoss, because that's what it says on the lobby screen.
I also can't figure out how to restart, switch to a new round, or switch races in the custom game.
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On November 28 2012 13:19 Antylamon wrote:(It's easier to make a new post rather than edit this in to my previous post... long post is long) Show nested quote +On November 28 2012 13:05 JaKaTaK wrote:
In other news, the first version of TheStaircase Custom map is out and ready for testing. Just search TheStaircase In custom games and test it out. More features will be available soon! Please leave all bug reports here and ColdLogic will get to them as he has time.
Thanks :D I started with this... + Show Spoiler +5 confused minutes later: Aw, no victowy scween. :[ On the bright side, PvP is a lot more fun this way. Plus I get ludicrous SQ when I decide not to mine and only attack the opponent! Same thing after a couple of retries. EDIT: Apparently it's not the case for player as Zerg. It might be because creep blocks structures. Additionally, the AI is always Protoss, because that's what it says on the lobby screen. I also can't figure out how to restart, switch to a new round, or switch races in the custom game.
New build is up.
Spawning next to the computer is fixed in the next build. I'll reset player settings so the computer race can be chosen (or randomed). Also, the computer will always spawn in the same location. This is because the game chooses player start locations at the beginning of the map, and once they are choosen, they will not change for the duration. However, if you play with another player (maybe you have a friend to help teach the game), start locations will be randomized. Obviously, this doesn't matter much for Cloud Kingdom, but on maps like Antiga or Sharkuras.
There will be no victory screen. The map will restart allowing you to choose another step. This isn't currently implemented, so you will have to manually restart the map (see the next paragraph).
As a short term solution, restarting the map can be done by typing "gg" or "restart" into chat. This will kill all units on the map and bring back up the step choosing screen. I know this isn't readily known. I will add something to make this known when you play the map for first time users.
Switching races is as simple as choosing a race button at the step selection screen (top of the menu). If this isn't working... hmm, works for me... Let me know more if you try and are unsuccessful. Note, as a map developer, you cannot actually change the race UI. So if you start the game as a Protoss player, you will have the Protoss UI. If you then switch to zerg, you will play zerg, but with the protoss UI, so it may sound and feel weird, just btw. You may notice you have the Zerg UI but are playing Protoss in your screenshots.
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On November 27 2012 23:14 JaKaTaK wrote:
@asdf
I fail to see what this has to do with TheStaircase.
Nothing, it also has nothing to do with sanity of TheStaircase.
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As a side note, if you are bug testing the custom map, I really need the most help with making sure the steps are all accurate to the current version of TheStaircase. To put this in perspective, there are 14 steps for Zerg, 16 for Protoss, and 14 for Terran, so a total of 44 steps. Each has its own units, buildings, and upgrades conforming to the required step.
My goal is to only allow upgrades when they are possible to be used. For example, I do not allow Level 3 Zerg upgrades (air, missile, melee, carapace) unless Hive is unlocked. So all steps before step 9 on the map for zerg should not allow level 3 upgrades. Basically, if you ever see an upgrade that is impossible to get (because you cannot meet tech requirements on that step, or maybe you cannot make the unit that utilizes that upgrade at that step) I would like to know about it to adjust the map.
To try the map, just search TheStaircase in CUSTOM GAMES (not Arcade).
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I'm gonna try this with my friend that is in silver leagues. I think it's a good way to improve core mechanics, and I guess strategy can only really come after a lot of games played, so makes sense.
Nice OP btw ^_^ !
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Thx crbox,
Definitely come back and let us know how that goes, good or bad!
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hi, the bottom two videos from the op are the same !?!?!
this is only a hint do whatever you like with it.
hf
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I have played the game sense october of 2010. I have logged thousands of starcraft II games. I have always tried to mimic the pro players and do everything at once the way the game "should" be played. More recently I have been essentially doing nothing but two base all-ins, and what I found is that not only am I winning more (not that important) I am just executing much much better because my build is focused, somewhat refined, and limited. I have taken games have higher ranked players than myself, and have given much higher ranked players challenging games. The builds are sub par, but the approach is healthier. I have found that by limiting my options and by using builds that require less mechanical skill to execute that I am actually improving more quickly and garnering better, more specific knowledge about the game. I think for a new player, this kind of tiered approach makes a lot of sense, even if I do think its a little too restrictive. I am a big fan of what you are doing here Jakattack, as I am a big fan of all you contribute. Thank you for giving so much back to the community.
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I have not read all of this as I don't have the desire to go through 12 pages of messages...however...my two cents are as follows: The overall structure of the program is ridiculously fantastic and I wish so badly that I would have found this a year ago when I placed in bronze. I have struggled the hard way to get into Diamond, and feel that I have plateau'd there. For everybody like me that has been playing the game since its release please remember that in its entirety, the program was developed for ~beginners and in an effort to accelerate their learning curve for which Jak has done a phenomenal job. I did read the first couple pages of this thread and you get the occasional jack@$$ that says why would I do this...I am already ______. Well, you have to understand the principle and apply it to the skillset that you have already obtained. Obviously a Masters player doesn't need to start at the same place that a Bronze player would....but that doesn't mean that he does not have Mechanics to work on and/or cannot improve his Macro. I am still a Diamond player, and I put the last 10 games I played on ladder into the SQ tracker prior to reading this forum. I averaged Just over 80. Just by reading the "scoring" for how to win a game, being aware of the SQ factor, Hard Supply blocks, and the energy portion I immediately was able to consistently average over 100 in the SQ tracker and have won 7 of the 10 games that I played since reading this thread. Point is for those of us that are not starting brand new...this is still a very applicable tool for improvement, just tailor it to your current skill level. (I do think that the "Pro" SQ should probably be higher than 100). Anyways....great tool and if your new I would study Jak's system like it were my job!!
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I would just like to hop on this Jak appreciation wave and say thank you also. As someone who is using both thecore and thestaircase, I just want to tell you that I love thecore, and thestaircase is really helping me improve. Despite being on the first level. Lol.
But I do have a question/concern. Regarding the first level, I feel like on three bases my minerals get really high despite staying on top of my injects and not getting hard supply blocked more than three times per game. I do make one macro hatch, and get an extra queen for it too, but even still, my minerals stay high. What do you suggest? More macro hatches? I feel like I shouldn't get like 5-6 hatches for three bases but... should I do it for the sake of the SQ?
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EPT
