• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 11:41
CEST 17:41
KST 00:41
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Ro4 Recap : The Peak2DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Info & Preview0herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2025)15Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, GuMiho, Classic, Cure6Code S RO8 Preview: Classic, Reynor, Maru, GuMiho4
Community News
EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1)2Weekly Cups (May 12-18): Clem sweeps WardiTV May3Code S Season 2 (2025) - Qualifier Results212025 GSL Season 2 (Qualifiers)14Code S Season 1 - Classic & GuMiho advance to RO4 (2025)4
StarCraft 2
General
DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Info & Preview Any reason why RuFF's stream is still on sidebar? Power Rank: October 2018 herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2025) Code S Season 2 (2025) - Qualifier Results
Tourneys
EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1) [GSL 2025] Code S Season 1 - RO4 and Grand Finals RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series DreamHack Dallas 2025 announced (May 23-25) SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void Mutation # 472 Dead Heat Mutation # 471 Delivery Guaranteed
Brood War
General
[ASL19] Ro4 Recap : The Peak who is JiriKara /Cipisek/ from CZ Practice Partners (Official) BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Any ASL fans around Vancouver?
Tourneys
[ASL19] Semifinal B [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player Creating a full chart of Zerg builds
Other Games
General Games
What do you want from future RTS games? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Grand Theft Auto VI Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Plays: Diplomacy TL Mafia: Generative Agents Showdown Survivor II: The Amazon
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread US Politics Mega-thread Men's Fashion Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Books] Wool by Hugh Howey
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL.net Ten Commandments
Blogs
Yes Sir! How Commanding Impr…
TrAiDoS
Poker
Nebuchad
Info SLEgma_12
SLEgma_12
SECOND COMMING
XenOsky
WombaT’s Old BW Terran Theme …
WombaT
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 16906 users

[G] TheStaircase - An Alternative Improvement Method

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 76 77 78 Next
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-04 14:54:16
October 09 2012 19:29 GMT
#1
[image loading]

TheStaircase is an alternative improvement method that focuses on creating a fun, and motivating experience for the player. It utilizes unit constrictions to prevent the player from being overwhelmed by the complexity of the game, and to encourage creativity and exploration. It uses measurable benchmarks for the absolute core elements of Starcraft 2: Gathering and spending resources efficiently. These benchmarks are recorded using GGTracker, allowing the player to devote all of their attention to playing the game.

[image loading]

  1. What to Expect
          A short explanation of what your experience will likely be should you choose to try TheStaircase.

  2. Getting Started
          Step by Step instructions on how to start playing TheStaircase right away!

  3. The Benchmarks.
          Specifics on how Spending Skill and Satuation Speed work, and why we chose to use them.

  4. Why TheTheStaircase Works
          The psychology and philosophy behind what make TheStaircase an effective training method.

  5. Frequently Asked Questions.
          



[image loading]

The Stuff League is the league in which, a player that consistently has more “stuff” than their opponent will win more than 50% of their games. Currently The Stuff League encompasses the Bronze, Silver, and Gold Leagues. That’s right, all is required to obtain a promotion to the Gold League is the ability to make more stuff than your opponent (more commonly referred to as macro). This is the point where most readers will experience a healthy amount of doubt and skepticism. Not to worry, the ladder is waiting to challenge this theory: prepare to be surprised. Professional players have proven this again and again, some making it as far as Diamond League with mass drone! However this is easier said than done, and the classic advice “just macro better” is still as annoying and unhelpful as ever.

TheStaircase is designed to help guide you through the basics of Starcraft 2 by playing games. There is no out of game practice, study, or memorization needed. With this method you can jump right on the ladder and start winning games now, even if you’ve never played Starcraft before. You will start with the most basic units and explore their strengths and weaknesses by playing games and experimenting. This will be guided by the Spending Skill benchmark. Focus on Spending your resources and work your skills up from bronze to grandmaster. Once you’re a grandmaster mineral-only macro-er, you’re ready to move on to the next step. After completing TheStaircase you will have a solid foundation of mechanics that will make learning strategies, build orders, and keeping up with the meta-game of Starcraft 2 easier and more fun.


[image loading]

TheStaircase Guide



Create an account on:
[image loading]
Choose a League Goal: The league you want to be in, long term.
Choose a Race: Zergs go to Step 0, Protoss and Terran go to Step 1
To pass a game you must meet or exceed the Spending Skill in your League Goal.
When you pass 4 out of your last 5 games Move on to the next Step.


Step 0: Play "Creep or Die" in the arcade and use "TheStaircase" mode against no opponent.

Step 1: Play a melee game* of Starcraft 2 (Mine only Minerals. (no gas) Attack Move on the minimap only. (do not look at battles)

Step 2: Mine only minerals (no gas) and Control your units to the best of your ability.

Step 3: Mine Gas and Minerals and Control your units to the best of your ability. Given Units only.

Step 4: Choose 1 unit from the Battle Units List. Aside from the Given Units, this is the only unit you may build.

Step 5: Choose 2 units from the Battle Units List. Aside from the Given Units, these are the only units you may build.

Step 6: Choose 3 units from the Battle Units List. Aside from the Given Units, these are the only units you may build.

Step 7: Repeat Step 5 until you are satisfied with your progress and are ready to move on to build orders and strategy.


[image loading]

The foundation of Starcraft 2 is the gathering and spending of resources. Without these two elements Starcraft 2 wouldn’t be what it is. The metric we have developed regarding these aspects of the game is called Spending Skill.

Spending Skill is measured by league. This means that each game will be compared to the average game of each league and given a corresponding badge. So if you spent your resources as well or better than the average gold league player, but not as well as the average platinum league player you would receive a gold badge in the Spending Skill column.

Spending Skill is measured from the 8 minute mark until the 30 minute mark (in-game time). If a game exceeds 30 minutes, a snapshot of the metric is taken from that point in the game and that metric appears on the score screen of ggtracker. This helps to avoid super early game cheeses, in which the player did not get adequate time to demonstrate their abilities; as well as super late game scenarios in which Spending Skill loses its relevancy.

Spending Skill
Spending Skill, to put it briefly, measures how fast you spend your resources in relation to how fast you are gathering them. The specifics are best explained by GGTracker:
http://ggtracker.com/spending_skill

Spending Skill is an improvement on an earlier established metric called Spending Quotient, and you can still see your SQ when you mouse over the league badge in the Spending Skill column. The difference is that it takes game length into account as well as a larger pool of data to assign leagues to particular SQs. These metrics have been at the core of TheStaircase since its inception and continue to prove to be essential to improvement in Starcraft 2.



[image loading]

The LAN Experiment
Starcraft 2 had just come out and I had planned a big LAN party with many of my friends. Some of them had never played Starcraft at all before, but were very excited about the new game and wanted to try it out. One of my friends, we’ll call him Yukon Cornelius, had never played Starcraft before and came early so that I could show him the ropes a bit before everything got started. I found a safe build for him to learn and wrote it down for reference and tried to explain as much as I could about the game: Unit compositions, counters, strategies, and all the things that I learned to play the game. He was eager to learn and began working on his build order. When the rest of my friends came and we started playing games and setting up brackets, I checked in on Yukon to see how he was doing. He had been playing for about 9 hours at that point and he was getting very frustrated and not showing very much improvement. Many of my friends chalked this up to the idea that “Starcraft is a really hard game”, but I wasn’t satisfied with stopping there.

After watching him play, I came up with an experiment. I told him to only focus on 3 things: Keep your money low, build pylons ahead of time, and build only zealots and probes. The result was mind bending. He wasn’t only beating some of my other friends who had just recently picked up the game; he was beating me; he was beating my friends that had been playing in the beta, with our build order notebooks, counters, and strategies; and he was having fun doing it. I had many LAN parties to follow, and repeated this experiment; the results were consistent. The players I taught with this approach had more fun, improved faster and won. The players I taught with the strategic approach got frustrated, overwhelmed, and lost.

Psychology and Starcraft
Games use a variety of psychological methods to get you to play and to keep playing. The Skinner Box is one of the more well known methods. Starcraft 2 has a form of this in the achievement system, but the reward isn't directly tied to improvement, which is what I want to do. I began looking for a better understanding of human motivation and found this talk by Dan Pink particularly interesting.



I would definitely describe playing Starcraft as requiring more than "rudimentary cognitive skill" and therefore the motivators of Autonomy, Mastery, and Purpose, apply here. Mastery is clearly a motivator for playing Starcraft. Purpose is somewhat distorted as the mainstream opinion of video games as a whole has been that they are a waste of time, that is changing slowly, but Starcraft has, i think, a particular role to play in this problem. It is an incredibly beneficial exercise and challenge. More and more studies are coming out about the benefits of playing Starcraft both mentally and physically. In the future I will be doing more research on this and collecting all of these things in one form or another, but until then there's one more motivator to address: Autonomy.

Now, if you've heard about this method before, you may be saying to yourself, "Limiting which units you can make does not promote Autonomy!" That is correct in a way, but let's look at the picture as a whole. Given complete Autonomy, every player would have to learn for him or herself all of the basic and unchanging things about Starcraft that we already know. On the other hand, removing all autonomy and saying that there is one and only one thing you must to do learn this game is very de-motivational. The goal of this system is to give enough guidance so that the player has a purpose and direction, but not so much so that the player isn't being encouraged to exercise their creativity or to have fun through experimentation.

There is one more parallel I want to draw between Dan Pink's talk on motivation, and Starcraft 2. He talks about how money is a motivator in jobs, but that the best way to use money as a motivator is to take it off the table so that the employee doesn't have to worry about money, and can put all of their focus on the task at hand. This, to me, is like winning and losing in Starcraft. If we can take the anxiety of winning and losing out of the equation, the player can better focus on the task at hand, improvement.

The Myth of the Bronze Player
Its been more than a year now that I've focused on trying to understand "The Bronze Player" and why he/she has such a hard time moving up in the ranks. From my experience, most higher level players respond to this question by saying things like, "They don't care", "They don't want it bad enough", "They're just having fun" and "They don't want to improve". Before launching TheJaKaTaK on May 1st, 2012, I spend around 6 months in the bronze league, meeting bronze players, talking with them after matches, asking them if they're frustrated, and what their plan is for improvement. Some said things like, "Whatever, I don't care, I'm just having fun, it's just a game, etc." but when I talked to them long enough, and they had enough time to cool down about their loss to a worker rush or an unexpected attack, they often took it all back, admitted they were frustrated and asked for help. This did not happen once, but many times over. I think it makes perfect sense that the biggest thing keeping bronze players from promotion is not that they don't care, or aren't trying, but that they are frustrated and lost. Many of them were trying build orders and strategies, but couldn't find the motivation to stick with them because it felt boring to them.

It is important to note that Starcraft, like any other skill, requires time, focus, and consistency to improve. There were some bronze players I spoke with that simply weren't playing enough to get promoted. This is another thing that higher level players often times note, sometimes in the abrasive and unhelpful, "Just play more games" style. Right now, you only need a couple months where you are averaging 1-2 focused games a day to get yourself into the silver league. But as you climb higher, you will need to put in more time, fortunately, as you get higher in the leagues, the play becomes more challenging and fun (IMO) so putting in more time will likely be a scheduling problem and not a motivational problem. When setting your league goal, make sure it is in line with the time you have to play.



[image loading]

1. What about upgrades? Which ones can I get?
+ Show Spoiler +
Any of them! On Step 0 and 1 you will not have gas for upgrades, so you won’t be able to get them, but that isn’t because they are a constriction, it is because you don’t have gas.

2. Is it okay to just do 1 or 2 steps and then go on to “normal” play?
+ Show Spoiler +
Of course it is! TheStaircase is a tool to build your foundation, it’s great for returning players to get their mechanics back in shape quickly, or to fill in the gaps of macro and micro you’ve been missing. Each person should use their own judgement as to how TheStaircase can best help them to improve.

3. Do I have to win to pass?
+ Show Spoiler +
Absolutely not. Part of what TheStaircase trains is the disconnection from the need to win. Winning is a poor benchmark for progress, many times players improve more after a loss than a win, so why judge our progress by something like winning?

4. Can I rush or cheese?
+ Show Spoiler +
Absolutely! You have the freedom to choose any strat and the benchmarks will still work! Get creative, try things that sound fun to you. That is the most important part.

5. Can I play vs the AI?
+ Show Spoiler +
You must play melee Sc2. This is the only restriction. (game type shows up in the lobby). Play 4v4s, play 2v2s, vs friends, on the ladder, vs AI, whatever you think is most fun!


Have a question? Ask it in the thread and, if its asked often, we’ll add it to the FAQ :D



Projects I'm Involved in:
+ Show Spoiler +
The Core - Advanced Keyboard Layout
TheStaircase - Alternative Improvement Method
TheCore Lite - Advanced Keyboard Layout
Hybrid Graphic Settings
Static Defense Placement
Fast Facts - Tips, Tricks, and Trivia
TheCore - DotA 2 Edition


www.patreon.com/JaKaTaKtv
www.twitter.com/JaKaTaKtv
www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
www.facebook.com/JaKaTaKtv
www.twitch.tv/JaKaTaKtv
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
shogeki
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada75 Posts
October 09 2012 19:43 GMT
#2
Sweet! This has deserved its own thread for a long time. Good job!
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
October 09 2012 19:46 GMT
#3
On October 10 2012 04:43 shogeki wrote:
Sweet! This has deserved its own thread for a long time. Good job!


Thanks man, I'm really hoping that this brings in new ideas and improvements, as well as explain in a more complete way what it is we're trying to accomplish and why we've done what we've done so far. :D
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
reikai
Profile Joined January 2011
United States359 Posts
October 09 2012 20:12 GMT
#4
This is awesome. bringing the attention to the casuals in any game is hard to find, let alone one of the hardest games in existence.

If you need a practice dummy for anything, PM me here or online: reikai.480 :D
Et Ducit Mundum Per Luce. :T:
Deathblood
Profile Joined February 2012
United States3 Posts
October 09 2012 20:18 GMT
#5
It's good to see that TheLevels has a thread now, I've been using this for awhile now and it's helped me improve a lot.
Turbogangsta
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia319 Posts
October 09 2012 21:03 GMT
#6
This is a fantastic fail safe for players trying to improve. I think mastering bite size bits and applying them in practice later is fantastic and is actually the basis of almost ALL education.

That said the quote is very poorly written on the spreadsheet. I think it is missing a full stop on the third line.
Esports is killing Esports.
GoldenPro
Profile Joined October 2012
England1 Post
Last Edited: 2012-10-10 02:07:07
October 09 2012 21:14 GMT
#7
This is a complete waste of time. You cannot simply become better in any reasonable amount of time by limiting yourself to bad play. You're telling people to only build Zealots/Marine/Zerglings for level 1, and moving up to a few units on the next levels without micro'ing their units at all or anything. It's just fucking pointless. This game is not that simple and there's no reason to practice this way, because it's 100% non-viable in any high level of play. Why would you practice a mechanically and strategically complex game using only 1 variable? If you want to master StarCraft 2, then you shouldn't play like an idiot on purpose. If you seriously cannot find yourself capable of doing 120'ish+ APM and correct unit compositions/timings every game, then you need to forget about any kind of goal of "improving" or becoming one of the best players, just play for lols, because you will be a joke forever.

StarCraft 2 is not a game of long-term improvement or skill. There is 1 game, one 1v1 on ladder. or a Bo3/5/7/etc in a tournament settings. Why should you have a goal to have an "SQ" of a certain number and no supply blocks with only zealots/marines/zerglings? It has no relevance to standard and correct play. Once you implement more structures/units into the game the relationships fall apart, and what you did with only 1 unit doesn't work with 2, 3,etc. anymore. You cannot "master" this game in small baby steps. You will master it by playing the correct way over and over. You obviously know nothing about RTS gaming, and you should consider a different hobby, because you're going no where.

User was banned (PBU).
rikter
Profile Joined November 2010
United States352 Posts
October 09 2012 21:15 GMT
#8
These are some responses from the other thread which is now about streaming, moved here for convenience.

@Jdub "Theoretically you could achieve cost efficiency by out-macroing your opponent so hard that your zealot/stalker force can trade well with a MMM or roach army, but such a requirement I would agree is against the philosophy of TheLevels.

Cost efficiency comes from unit control and strategy. Positioning, timing windows, composition and micro all have an effect on how much damage your units can potentially do. Making more units than is necessary is the opposite of efficiency, its just a workaround, and it has a limit (200 supply)

@shogeki "Efficiency in trading, in my opinion, is something more important when you are the one trying to win on fewer bases than your opponent with some kind of timing attack. It feels to be against the spirit of TheLevels, which to me was always get way more stuff than your opponent and win through "power overwhelming" mode. That's not to say that you can't trade efficiently playing this style - you totally can - but I feel it's a poor metric for the style.

Like I said above, once you max thats it, and if you arent efficient it is going to be a problem, even on equal bases. Power overwhelming is the timing attack, because by design you are hitting as hard as you possibly can at a point where your opponent is weak.

@Jak "As far as forcing people to choose a build from a list, I think that cuts way to far into Autonomy than is necessary. Giving a link to places where they can find builds if they want to try them might be a good compromise, but I do not think forcing a player to do a build is a good idea. If they choose to, that's great, but it should be their choice, not mine.

How about just the proper amount of buildings per base, with no restriction on what they are, or the proper amount of workers per base. Or is this just a training method to work in hotkeys, because thats what it seems like sort of. Those are some limits that give people lots of room to do stuff while still learning the very basics of managing an economy. Without those things though, it seems like just a way to familiarize yourself with the hotkeys.
No one wants a box of shit, even if it is for Christmas.
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-09 21:22:48
October 09 2012 21:22 GMT
#9
On October 10 2012 06:14 GoldenPro wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
This is a complete waste of time. You cannot simply become better in any reasonable amount of time by limiting yourself to bad play. You're telling people to only build Zealots/Marine/Zerglings for level 1, and moving up to a few units on the next levels without micro'ing their units at all or anything. It's just fucking pointless. This game is not that simple and there's no reason to practice this way, because it's 100% non-viable in any high level of play. Why would you practice a mechanically and strategically complex game using only 1 variable? If you want to master StarCraft 2, then you shouldn't play like an idiot on purpose. If you seriously cannot find yourself capable of doing 120'ish+ APM and correct unit compositions/timings every game, then you need to forget about any kind of goal of "improving" or becoming one of the best players, just play for lols, because you will be a joke forever.

StarCraft 2 is not a game of long-term improvement or skill. There is 1 game, one 1v1 on ladder. or a Bo3/5/7/etc in a tournament settings. Why should you have a goal to have an "SQ" of a certain number and no supply blocks with only zealots/marines/zerglings? It has no relevance to standard and correct play. Once you implement more structures/units into the game the relationships fall apart, and what you did with only 1 unit doesn't work with 2, 3,etc. anymore. You cannot "master" this game in small baby steps. You will master it by playing the correct way over and over. You obviously know nothing about RTS gaming, and you should consider a different hobby, because you're going no where.

Try telling that to the people who have clearly improved as a result of this method.

The goal is not to limit your options. The goal is to have less to worry about.

You don't juggle ten balls on your first try. You start with one and work your way up. TheLevels is very similar to this.
ishyishy
Profile Joined February 2011
United States826 Posts
October 09 2012 21:24 GMT
#10
Dont think it needs to be this complicated. Improving at the game comes down to 1 thing: enjoyment. It really is that simple. If you enjoy the game, you will play it when you have the time, and you will eventually get better at it because you are encouraged to play more. If you dont enjoy it, and you are miserable and frustrated, you will spend less time playing and wont even want to imrove.

If i stopped to think about this much crap every time i play, id be wasting time. Just grind games, hopefully you enjoy the game, and the improvement will come. That doesnt mean you have no skill ceiling; you might hit a wall somewhere, and you should be ok with that. If you arent, then sorry there is nothing anyone else can do for you. Either stay mad or move on (i suggest league of legends, far far easier and stress-free ).
snively
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States1159 Posts
October 09 2012 21:29 GMT
#11
when I read "i've been trying to understand the bronze players" the FIRST thing i thought of was Gheed and his rather offensive blogs
My religion is Starcraft
JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-09 21:38:59
October 09 2012 21:31 GMT
#12
On October 10 2012 06:15 rikter wrote:
@Jdub "Theoretically you could achieve cost efficiency by out-macroing your opponent so hard that your zealot/stalker force can trade well with a MMM or roach army, but such a requirement I would agree is against the philosophy of TheLevels.

Cost efficiency comes from unit control and strategy. Positioning, timing windows, composition and micro all have an effect on how much damage your units can potentially do. Making more units than is necessary is the opposite of efficiency, its just a workaround, and it has a limit (200 supply)

I'm not exactly sure what your point is. Composition affects how much damage your units can potentially do, which means it affects their efficiency. So with TheLevels you are going to have unit compositions that are not cost efficient. I'm not sure what you mean by "more units than is necessary" -- what is the "necessary" number of units? The bare minimum to win a game? The size of your army, while obviously limited by the supply cap, can increase its cost efficiency. For example, 50 marines v. 10 zealots and you probably won't lose more than 2-3 marines (very cost efficient). Try 30 marines against 10 zealots and you probably win the battle, but lose a whole bunch of marines. This is all I was saying. If you are using TheLevels, the only way you will achieve having a smaller resources lost total than your opponent is by outmacroing them to such a degree that your inferior composition still achieves cost efficiency.

What part of my argument are you disagreeing with?

Edit: I think your point that what I'm saying is a "workaround" to achieve cost efficiency was exactly the point that I was trying to make. My whole point is that the only way you will achieve cost efficiency when doing a build that is "macro as much as you can, build as many of these low-tier units as you can, and then try to micro them against your opponent" is going to be from having such an overwhelming force that you don't lose very many units at all. Unit control can't make equal supply of unupgraded zealot/stalker cost efficient against MMM.
ThyLastPenguin
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom101 Posts
October 09 2012 21:31 GMT
#13
On October 10 2012 06:14 GoldenPro wrote:
This is a complete waste of time. You cannot simply become better in any reasonable amount of time by limiting yourself to bad play. You're telling people to only build Zealots/Marine/Zerglings for level 1, and moving up to a few units on the next levels without micro'ing their units at all or anything. It's just fucking pointless. This game is not that simple and there's no reason to practice this way, because it's 100% non-viable in any high level of play. Why would you practice a mechanically and strategically complex game using only 1 variable? If you want to master StarCraft 2, then you shouldn't play like an idiot on purpose. If you seriously cannot find yourself capable of doing 120'ish+ APM and correct unit compositions/timings every game, then you need to forget about any kind of goal of "improving" or becoming one of the best players, just play for lols, because you will be a joke forever.

StarCraft 2 is not a game of long-term improvement or skill. There is 1 game, one 1v1 on ladder. or a Bo3/5/7/etc in a tournament settings. Why should you have a goal to have an "SQ" of a certain number and no supply blocks with only zealots/marines/zerglings? It has no relevance to standard and correct play. Once you implement more structures/units into the game the relationships fall apart, and what you did with only 1 unit doesn't work with 2, 3,etc. anymore. You cannot "master" this game in small baby steps. You will master it by playing the correct way over and over. You obviously know nothing about RTS gaming, and you should consider a different hobby, because you're going no where.

Wow you need to calm down.

First off. 120+ apm is not something that everyone juts hops into learning starcraft and finding their APM at. APM of 120+ is picked up from learning the mechanics and then getting used to being mechanically better and better until you are doing things faster and as such have more spare APM/time and also more APM being put into mechanics.
The thing about learning with just zealots is because macro is 100% the reason people are still in low levels. I got to plat with only macro and my macro still sucks compared to a master league. Macro is so important and it's also a lot of stuff to get used to and get good at. There are really just a few basic things to get good at in macro though, and then you just do these basic things more complex etc.
How much easier would it be to spend all your money on pure zealots than thinking "Hmm. I see he has x. Well, I can build y and counter it if I do z" for a new player?
Compare this to being perfect at making zealots. Then you just say "Okay, I'll do the same, except this time I'll do it with stalkers and zealots".

TL;DR you seem mad and need to broaden your horizons.
"Stephano is pretty much saving SC2 one hidden knife and pedophile joke at a time." - Fionn
Czarnodziej
Profile Joined January 2011
Poland624 Posts
October 09 2012 21:33 GMT
#14
Repost from main thread:

I really like The Levels and I think it has tremendous potential. I especially liked it simplicity and clear goals.

On the other hand I think The Levels v.4.0 is a failure when compared to previous version.

1) The Levels v. 3xx : simple goals, easy to follow for players regardless of skill, experience or amount of knowledge regarding the game. Easy to pick up, hard to master, fun to play and experience.
2) 4.0 - a load of random ideas stacked on top of each other in order to satisfy the needs of everyone. It lacks the most important thing any development absolutely requires - a focus. It tries to cater to needs of both novice and advanced players, which is bound to fail. You can't magically bridge the gap between them.

"2 - Scout, React, Make Decisions, Review your replay." - its sounds like telling Average Joe to go rob a bank and expect him to succeed. This blows my mind, because I remember that whole idea of The Levels was to avoid these type of things. Why the sudden change when you said yourself that it is a terrible approach to learn sc2?
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-09 21:34:54
October 09 2012 21:33 GMT
#15
On October 10 2012 06:24 ishyishy wrote:
Dont think it needs to be this complicated. Improving at the game comes down to 1 thing: enjoyment. It really is that simple. If you enjoy the game, you will play it when you have the time, and you will eventually get better at it because you are encouraged to play more. If you dont enjoy it, and you are miserable and frustrated, you will spend less time playing and wont even want to imrove.

If i stopped to think about this much crap every time i play, id be wasting time. Just grind games, hopefully you enjoy the game, and the improvement will come. That doesnt mean you have no skill ceiling; you might hit a wall somewhere, and you should be ok with that. If you arent, then sorry there is nothing anyone else can do for you. Either stay mad or move on (i suggest league of legends, far far easier and stress-free ).

The goal is not exactly to sit back and enjoy the game, either. It helps people visibly improve, which in of itself is fun for some people, including myself.

Laddering all day with no other intentions in mind, besides vague things like "improving" and "getting used to a build order" is clearly not the most efficient way of improving. Planning it out like this makes it that much more efficient, even if it does seem like triple-overkill. I'm sure Jak is all about going the next step, what with theCore and now theLevels being designed to be very planned out and efficient.
SwordfishConspiracy
Profile Joined December 2010
United States146 Posts
October 09 2012 21:34 GMT
#16
On October 10 2012 06:24 ishyishy wrote:
Dont think it needs to be this complicated. Improving at the game comes down to 1 thing: enjoyment. It really is that simple. If you enjoy the game, you will play it when you have the time, and you will eventually get better at it because you are encouraged to play more. If you dont enjoy it, and you are miserable and frustrated, you will spend less time playing and wont even want to imrove.

If i stopped to think about this much crap every time i play, id be wasting time. Just grind games, hopefully you enjoy the game, and the improvement will come. That doesnt mean you have no skill ceiling; you might hit a wall somewhere, and you should be ok with that. If you arent, then sorry there is nothing anyone else can do for you. Either stay mad or move on (i suggest league of legends, far far easier and stress-free ).


If your goal is to play the game purely for enjoyment, sure, but this is for people who want to improve their skills and play the game at a higher level. Just saying "next game I'll play better" is a really poor way to improve. SC2 is a macro focused game; it's much, much, much more important to macro effectively than it is to play with good strategy. This system makes sure your macro is top notch before you event start to think about complex strategies. And there's a lot of really effective things you can do even at the early levels with upgrade timing attacks, harass play, etc. I've won quite a few games in mid-high diamond by massing lings and harass + counter attacks.
SwordfishConspiracy
StateofReverie
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States633 Posts
October 09 2012 21:35 GMT
#17
For my motivation, I turned starcraft 2 into something that is fun for me to get better at. Can easily sit down now when I have free time and just sit and play 8-10 games in a row and enjoy winning or losing, although lately I have been winning a lot...its like terran just got an invisible buff haha
SwordfishConspiracy
Profile Joined December 2010
United States146 Posts
October 09 2012 21:40 GMT
#18
Another thing to mention is that this system is WONDERFUL for learning a new keyboard layout. It limits the things you can build so you don't have to memorize all the keys at once. First you learn the basic production structures, then you slowly work in tech, upgrades, and spells until you've used everything in the game.

If anyone was thinking about switching over to something different (like TheCore which I highly recommend) and were intimidated by the learning curve, this makes it a lot easier.
SwordfishConspiracy
ishyishy
Profile Joined February 2011
United States826 Posts
October 09 2012 21:49 GMT
#19
On October 10 2012 06:34 SwordfishConspiracy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2012 06:24 ishyishy wrote:
Dont think it needs to be this complicated. Improving at the game comes down to 1 thing: enjoyment. It really is that simple. If you enjoy the game, you will play it when you have the time, and you will eventually get better at it because you are encouraged to play more. If you dont enjoy it, and you are miserable and frustrated, you will spend less time playing and wont even want to imrove.

If i stopped to think about this much crap every time i play, id be wasting time. Just grind games, hopefully you enjoy the game, and the improvement will come. That doesnt mean you have no skill ceiling; you might hit a wall somewhere, and you should be ok with that. If you arent, then sorry there is nothing anyone else can do for you. Either stay mad or move on (i suggest league of legends, far far easier and stress-free ).


If your goal is to play the game purely for enjoyment, sure, but this is for people who want to improve their skills and play the game at a higher level. Just saying "next game I'll play better" is a really poor way to improve. SC2 is a macro focused game; it's much, much, much more important to macro effectively than it is to play with good strategy. This system makes sure your macro is top notch before you event start to think about complex strategies. And there's a lot of really effective things you can do even at the early levels with upgrade timing attacks, harass play, etc. I've won quite a few games in mid-high diamond by massing lings and harass + counter attacks.



Ok so wait...are you spouting all this macro nonsense in an attempt to argue with me about something? lol

Look, if forcing yourself to play and stressing yourself over improvement is your way of enjoying the game, then by all means keep doing it. Like i said, enjoyment is the only thing that matters at the end of the day. If you know anyone that improves at a game or a hobby or a sport by hating it and being frustrated over it with no enjoyment, please let me know, id like to meet this person lol.
ishyishy
Profile Joined February 2011
United States826 Posts
October 09 2012 21:51 GMT
#20
On October 10 2012 06:33 Antylamon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2012 06:24 ishyishy wrote:
Dont think it needs to be this complicated. Improving at the game comes down to 1 thing: enjoyment. It really is that simple. If you enjoy the game, you will play it when you have the time, and you will eventually get better at it because you are encouraged to play more. If you dont enjoy it, and you are miserable and frustrated, you will spend less time playing and wont even want to imrove.

If i stopped to think about this much crap every time i play, id be wasting time. Just grind games, hopefully you enjoy the game, and the improvement will come. That doesnt mean you have no skill ceiling; you might hit a wall somewhere, and you should be ok with that. If you arent, then sorry there is nothing anyone else can do for you. Either stay mad or move on (i suggest league of legends, far far easier and stress-free ).

The goal is not exactly to sit back and enjoy the game, either. It helps people visibly improve, which in of itself is fun for some people, including myself.

Laddering all day with no other intentions in mind, besides vague things like "improving" and "getting used to a build order" is clearly not the most efficient way of improving. Planning it out like this makes it that much more efficient, even if it does seem like triple-overkill. I'm sure Jak is all about going the next step, what with theCore and now theLevels being designed to be very planned out and efficient.



I think your first sentence contradicts itself You are saying enjoyment is not the only important thing, and then saying that you have fun by stressing yourself. Well...then you are enjoying the way you are playing, which still leads to my point :D
1 2 3 4 5 76 77 78 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
10:00
2025 GSL S1 - Playoffs
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 56099
Calm 8514
Sea 7204
Rain 4022
Horang2 1324
EffOrt 836
Mini 309
Zeus 239
Rush 173
Dewaltoss 138
[ Show more ]
Barracks 133
Leta 95
Mong 76
Killer 45
Sea.KH 39
Terrorterran 30
Sexy 27
Aegong 27
Noble 25
Shine 12
ivOry 4
JulyZerg 1
Stormgate
RushiSC38
Dota 2
Gorgc10523
qojqva2121
Counter-Strike
markeloff950
ceh9294
edward84
kRYSTAL_57
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King127
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor174
Other Games
B2W.Neo1771
hiko806
Mlord490
DeMusliM413
crisheroes371
ToD156
ArmadaUGS136
SortOf117
QueenE92
Trikslyr42
FrodaN10
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 455
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 9
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 128
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix3
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV322
League of Legends
• Nemesis4905
• Jankos1696
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
8h 19m
OSC
8h 19m
Replay Cast
18h 19m
Road to EWC
23h 19m
Replay Cast
1d 18h
SC Evo League
1d 20h
Road to EWC
1d 23h
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
BeSt vs Soulkey
Road to EWC
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
[ Show More ]
SOOP
4 days
NightMare vs Wayne
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
GSL Code S
5 days
Cure vs Zoun
Solar vs Creator
The PondCast
5 days
Online Event
5 days
Clem vs ShoWTimE
herO vs MaxPax
GSL Code S
6 days
GuMiho vs Bunny
ByuN vs SHIN
Online Event
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-05-16
2025 GSL S1
Calamity Stars S2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
ASL Season 19
YSL S1
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
China & Korea Top Challenge
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Heroes 10 EU
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025
ESL Pro League S21

Upcoming

Rose Open S1
Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLAN 2025
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2025
2025 GSL S2
DreamHack Dallas 2025
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.