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On October 11 2012 10:28 JaKaTaK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 09:47 6xFPCs wrote:
interesting. my primary gripe about this is that i read the post, watched the first bits of the first lesson video, and i still don't really know what's going on. your title is almost more informative than your whole post. I liked the bit about how your friend not following build orders, instead just focusing on spending money, did very well as a result. Other than that, I have only a vague grasp of what you wrote and your alternate system of benchmarks.
this isn't a critique of the effectiveness of your system, not at all; i'm just letting you know that I found it wholly unapproachable. And this is coming from someone who reads scientific papers on a daily basis. How do you suggest I change it? I'm all about improving the presentation. (I tend to be more of an idea guy instead of a presentation guy, but i'm learning as fast as i can)
I've been trying to figure out how you can improve it, and honestly I just don't understand it well enough to say. The main thing I'd want to see, though, is that you begin with an explanation of what is it (alternative method to improving--need to define what it is an alternate to), and an overview of how it works and why. For instance, you can say that it's a more intuitive approach to learning how to play sc2 well, that works by introducing concepts in a manner that is more friendly and understandable for new players, and that this allows them to take to the game more readily. Then give a short paragraph about your friend who learned quickly via just trying to spend money, and how that inspired you to find similar key concepts to focus on at each level of play.
Hopefully that's not so wrong as to be useless. GL, I think you're doing some good experimentation, if nothing else.
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Thanks for the suggestion, sounds good. Do you think that the first video doesn't accomplish this well enough?
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I can dig the autonomy and exploratory learning bit. This is particularly effective with very scattered practice sessions and limited playtime. It's easy to remember, "Oh yeah, last level I could only build zealots, I can't wait to get stalkers and throw them at him!" Secondly, the distractions are doubly eliminated. First one I think all coaches know -- staring at battles and microing units is a distraction from the basics in the early stages. Use the minimap to get your students away from this stumbling block, and it creates a carefree attitude towards the actual fight. The interesting one is the limit on units built puts a double focus on other areas. The quieter you become, the more you are able to hear.
I'm unsure about the camera keys to new players. I consider it an additional roadblock not really worth setting up for later. Control groups (doubletap) and the minimap are your camera controls. The camera buttons themselves can be thought as a flavor item later on in life and not some core part of gameplay worthy of practice early on. Zoom to base hotkey I don't oppose.
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On October 14 2012 15:00 Danglars wrote:
I can dig the autonomy and exploratory learning bit. This is particularly effective with very scattered practice sessions and limited playtime. It's easy to remember, "Oh yeah, last level I could only build zealots, I can't wait to get stalkers and throw them at him!" Secondly, the distractions are doubly eliminated. First one I think all coaches know -- staring at battles and microing units is a distraction from the basics in the early stages. Use the minimap to get your students away from this stumbling block, and it creates a carefree attitude towards the actual fight. The interesting one is the limit on units built puts a double focus on other areas. The quieter you become, the more you are able to hear.
I'm unsure about the camera keys to new players. I consider it an additional roadblock not really worth setting up for later. Control groups (doubletap) and the minimap are your camera controls. The camera buttons themselves can be thought as a flavor item later on in life and not some core part of gameplay worthy of practice early on. Zoom to base hotkey I don't oppose.
I think that the location hotkeys are very much overlooked currently, but they will not be in the future. Thanks for the review though, I agree with a lot of it of course 
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On October 14 2012 14:48 JaKaTaK wrote:
Thanks for the suggestion, sounds good. Do you think that the first video doesn't accomplish this well enough?
It does, but it's slow to do so; it could just be my personal preference, but I think it would have been more effective to know the overall approach while getting the content of the video. As it stands, I was using the video to answer questions and fill in gaps, when I felt like the intent of the video was to get players started on using the method (i.e. we should already have a basic understanding of the method, video gives examples and introduces specific facts/the method itself).
Again, I feel somehow lost and unsure about this. But it seems like what I said earlier made sense, so I'm hoping on I'm the right track and being useful.
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I just wanted to chime in and say that as a rather poor player, I have really been enjoying this system. It has really changed my mindset, and now when I lose it doesn't really phase me as long as I have made progress towards hitting The Levels' metrics. I can definitely see this evolving into a general improvement based mindset down the line. I highly recommend it to anyone who is dealing with the frustration of losing games.
On a more substantive note, I have added my own metric which may or may not be worth incorporating into the overall Levels progression. Something I have always struggled with is slow hand speed and low APM, and I have made 200 sustained APM another metric I have to hit to advance in the levels. I just set up Sc2gears APM alert to 200 APM in the background and go at it. I don't know if this would be worthwhile to scale up, but I have been getting faster with it as an additional metric.
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On October 15 2012 02:10 Widdershins. wrote:
I just wanted to chime in and say that as a rather poor player, I have really been enjoying this system. It has really changed my mindset, and now when I lose it doesn't really phase me as long as I have made progress towards hitting The Levels' metrics. I can definitely see this evolving into a general improvement based mindset down the line. I highly recommend it to anyone who is dealing with the frustration of losing games.
On a more substantive note, I have added my own metric which may or may not be worth incorporating into the overall Levels progression. Something I have always struggled with is slow hand speed and low APM, and I have made 200 sustained APM another metric I have to hit to advance in the levels. I just set up Sc2gears APM alert to 200 APM in the background and go at it. I don't know if this would be worthwhile to scale up, but I have been getting faster with it as an additional metric.
APM as a metric is interesting to me. I've been watching mine since i began my new training regimine in september, and I have noticed it increasing. I have always felt that getting a high APM doesn't necessarily mean that you are skilled, or will win more games, but if you are winning games and gaining skill, your APM will naturally rise with it. I know a lot of people disagree with me on this point, but I feel that accuracy is more important than speed, and that accuracy actually creates speed.
Good to see you're enjoying the method :D
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I have always felt that getting a high APM doesn't necessarily mean that you are skilled, or will win more games, but if you are winning games and gaining skill, your APM will naturally rise with it. I know a lot of people disagree with me on this point, but I feel that accuracy is more important than speed, and that accuracy actually creates speed.
This is insightful, because APM as a metric is close to meaningless. A player who clicks madly 15 times will always have higher APM than the player who clicked in the right spot only once, and we all know which is better. A player who switches his camera by saved camera locations will have much lower APM than one who hotkeys each of his base structures and double-taps the hotkey to switch between, though both techniques can be roughly equivalent.
Sc2gears can show you the redundancy of your actions on the APM graph, which can give you an idea of just how much time you are wasting with useless or repetitive actions.
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Hey jak i was wondering what you thought of this. I can beat the computer on very hard on level 2 masters (wasn't my goal but i ended up with >90sq) but I find people really distracting on ladder, dropping in my base and such. And never make it to >80SQ do you think learning to ignore people is something you are trying to teach? because my thought is that its not.
When I move to level 3 i will get more used to jumping back to my macro during fights and thus my SQ will increase while 'distracted'.
Any thoughts?
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On October 15 2012 20:48 frito wrote:
Hey jak i was wondering what you thought of this. I can beat the computer on very hard on level 2 masters (wasn't my goal but i ended up with >90sq) but I find people really distracting on ladder, dropping in my base and such. And never make it to >80SQ do you think learning to ignore people is something you are trying to teach? because my thought is that its not.
When I move to level 3 i will get more used to jumping back to my macro during fights and thus my SQ will increase while 'distracted'.
Any thoughts?
For starters, being around 80 sq on a ladder game is actually really good. So there is the possibility that your current approach is actually working well.
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On October 15 2012 20:48 frito wrote:
Hey jak i was wondering what you thought of this. I can beat the computer on very hard on level 2 masters (wasn't my goal but i ended up with >90sq) but I find people really distracting on ladder, dropping in my base and such. And never make it to >80SQ do you think learning to ignore people is something you are trying to teach? because my thought is that its not.
When I move to level 3 i will get more used to jumping back to my macro during fights and thus my SQ will increase while 'distracted'.
Any thoughts?
I think that doing something like going against the AI for macro levels and going on the ladder for micro/multitask levels, is a great idea, (not sure if that's what you're getting at, but it made me think of that).
I'm not sure what you mean by "learning to ignore people". I think that it is important to not be emotionally affected by people. Getting dropped shouldn't make you upset or panic, you should be calm and in control at all times. (very difficult thing to do, but worth working towards IMO)
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Can you add previous versions of TheLevels to the google doc? Maybe in different tabs? I'm interested in seeing the evolution of the program
And yeah, if anyone comes up with a replay analyzer or something to check out the metrics, please link it to the OP. That would be phenomenal.
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For those helping with translation, whenever I create a new update for the levels, I will clear all translations, that way there is only accurate data on the document. Make a copy of the document in google docs, edit for changes, and share that document with me please :D
As for a history, I'll see what I can do. It would be fun to look at.
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On October 16 2012 04:12 JaKaTaK wrote:
I think that doing something like going against the AI for macro levels and going on the ladder for micro/multitask levels, is a great idea, (not sure if that's what you're getting at, but it made me think of that).
Yes that was what i meant, awesome. I think it makes the most sense to push this problem (not getting distracted) onto the micro/multitask level.
On October 16 2012 04:12 JaKaTaK wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by "learning to ignore people". I think that it is important to not be emotionally affected by people. Getting dropped shouldn't make you upset or panic, you should be calm and in control at all times. (very difficult thing to do, but worth working towards IMO)
Thanks! For the trolls, I jumped from high bronze to middle gold and i just finished level 2. I also switched to using theCore and although I cant identify a specific thing which it has helped, I dont think I could be macroing as hard as i was in lvl 2 without thecore.
keep it up!
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On October 17 2012 08:14 JaKaTaK wrote:The people demand proof! So we're going to give it to them. If you think the levels have helped you improve, submit a link of you b.net profile with the rank you started TheLevels on. Should look something like this: OpSathorod - Started Silver http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/817307/1/OpSathorod/
This is not an adequate form of proof. No controls, no standard approach. Maybe you meant evidence? Maybe it seems like splitting hairs but they are two very different things.
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You are correct. I have amended my statement.
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On October 17 2012 23:23 JaKaTaK wrote:
You are correct. I have amended my statement.
Very good. I would have put a little more into that post but wasnt sure if it was going to be responded to or not. Attention to detail separates the men from the boys when it comes to gaming (and life). Biggest difference between great gamers and mediocre is between the ears. Many people will not appreciate the difference between proof and evidence, for example, and while it seems pedantic there really is a huge difference. My time spent playing games, my scientific education, my legal education, all hammered into me both an impersonal approach to things (where all that really matters is right and wrong), relentless attention to detail, and an inclination to really hammer on things that arent adding up. Its a great tool for figuring out if something works, why it works etc but its not useful when it comes to making friends because even though for me its an impersonal method, designed to get the best, not everyone appreciates it.
Winners arent born though, they are made. Its not natural to win all the time, its something you have to learn to do. I know you are trying to teach people to win with macro, hell a big part of my learning was macro related, but my emphasis was on banging out X units by time T, trying to exploit my enemies natural weaknesses rather than keeping money low (which came later).
As Ive said, the lack of strategic concepts has a good chance of biting you in the ass bc your potential customers need to go elsewhere to further refine skill. Another thing ive brought up is that what this is really best at is training you on hotkeys. I think this is a pretty good way to familiarize yourself with the keys. But this familiarization doesnt help as much when you arent thinking about the game properly, because while good mechanics are essential to translate your thoughts into in-game actions, if your thoughts arent right you are in trouble. Garbage in, garbage out.
If you want to be a winner, you have to pay a price. It takes your time, yes, but it also draws a lot of enmity and can distance you from other people, who, for whatever reason, are not interested in winning all the time. This system will likely help a casual player keep up enough to not get completely rofl stomped, but it wont make them a winner. This is really the heart of the issue for me. Currently it feels to me like you are promising a bit more than thelevels are capable of delivering, and because the people being pitched to are those less likely to appreciate this, I felt the need to comment.
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i don't think anyone here believes that if they utilize this program and master the final level, that they're all of a sudden going to become "winners." the path to becoming a "winner" never ends because there will always be people trying to take you down. no one guide, program, or even mentor/coach can hold your hand through the entire process. thelevels is simply a guide to help you in the process of improvement, no more, no less.
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EPT
