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tbh unless a bronzy has played 1000+ games with the intention of getting better but is still in bronze I say the best answer is play more. Experience is everything, you can read all day and all night about strategy, about other races builds and how to respond and what not but it really does not help a person get better.
Seriously... When you experience/learn something in game, it just sticks... I can not explain it but it does. You may lose to a roach ling all in as toss maybe 50 times before you realize you need to check the 3rd between 4-5min, BUT once you make that realization it sticks and you generally remember to always look for the third, and hence are prepared.
Ahh its hard to explain because its such a weird thing, but honestly to any bronzey who is reading this thread, STOP. click the SC2 icon, and play some games. Because you will benefit 10000x more than reading this thread.
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On October 18 2012 07:39 KingLumps wrote:
tbh unless a bronzy has played 1000+ games with the intention of getting better but is still in bronze I say the best answer is play more. Experience is everything, you can read all day and all night about strategy, about other races builds and how to respond and what not but it really does not help a person get better.
Seriously... When you experience/learn something in game, it just sticks... I can not explain it but it does. You may lose to a roach ling all in as toss maybe 50 times before you realize you need to check the 3rd between 4-5min, BUT once you make that realization it sticks and you generally remember to always look for the third, and hence are prepared.
Ahh its hard to explain because its such a weird thing, but honestly to any bronzey who is reading this thread, STOP. click the SC2 icon, and play some games. Because you will benefit 10000x more than reading this thread.
Did you even read the thread? This isn't a strategy guide and it certainly doesn't require, or advocate, "reading day and night about strategy and builds". The entire core focus of the system is actually playing the game - the caveat is that it's about playing the game in a unique way to learn faster and more holistically.
Your post just doesn't make any sense in the context of the thread - I have a feeling you just saw the title and decided to post without actually reading anything (although I do agree the presentation of the method needs work).
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yo calm down. I wasn't referring to this thread specifically even though I said thread, I meant forums, chillax bra. And yeah I'm still sticking with what I said. Play, don't read.
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The reading is important though, it can really save you time by removing flawed iterations. It doesnt have to be forums or guides or pro replays, it can be your own games. Example: i have a gas first 1-1-1 opener i use in TvT. Swapping the timing on the starport and the second gas turns an 80% winrate into a 20%. I didnt even realize I was doing this, I caught it in sc2 gears. Thats a tiny detail, a single decision made early in the game, and failing to make it properly will have a dramatic impact on your results. Early game errors have a long time to accumulate a disadvantage, you will always have a chance to make one (all games have early games) and if the game goes longer the loss is more likely to be attributed to something else, instead of the cascade of stuff stemming from a single, subtle bad decision.
You really need a tight first 7-8 minutes (8 buildings or so, including supply buildings) and solid gas timings. If you cant do this, shift to the first 3 minutes. Example: 111 is too much? Just focus on doing a proper orbital command opening. A tight opener will always help you.
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On October 14 2012 15:00 Danglars wrote:
I'm unsure about the camera keys to new players. I consider it an additional roadblock not really worth setting up for later. Control groups (doubletap) and the minimap are your camera controls. The camera buttons themselves can be thought as a flavor item later on in life and not some core part of gameplay worthy of practice early on. Zoom to base hotkey I don't oppose.
I agree with this at the early levels but I do think it is useful. Maybe it would be worth making this an unlock at a higher macro level. Level 10 or 15 maybe?
On a separate note to the OP, I've been trying this the past couple days and I love this approach. It's exactly right IMO. Focus on one thing until you've got it then add one more thing.
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rikter,
I want to make it clear. I am not promising anything to anyone. I am offering an alternative way to learn starcraft, that I find fun, engaging, and motivating, and so do many others, that's it.
"Winners arent born though, they are made." Common man, don't throw dead cliches around like that, it doesn't help you any.
On October 18 2012 07:39 KingLumps wrote:
tbh unless a bronzy has played 1000+ games with the intention of getting better but is still in bronze I say the best answer is play more. Experience is everything, you can read all day and all night about strategy, about other races builds and how to respond and what not but it really does not help a person get better.
Seriously... When you experience/learn something in game, it just sticks... I can not explain it but it does. You may lose to a roach ling all in as toss maybe 50 times before you realize you need to check the 3rd between 4-5min, BUT once you make that realization it sticks and you generally remember to always look for the third, and hence are prepared.
Ahh its hard to explain because its such a weird thing, but honestly to any bronzey who is reading this thread, STOP. click the SC2 icon, and play some games. Because you will benefit 10000x more than reading this thread.
I absolutely agree with pretty much everything but your conclusion. I think we're coming from the same place.
This post is not about strategy, its about making a framework to play and experience Starcraft 2 that is less frustrating than having to figure everything out yourself. It narrows your options at the start, so that you can have more consistent experiences and really feel out the strengths and weaknesses of the individual units, as well as the race as a whole. It is an exercise in exploratory learning and deliberate practice. Telling someone to, "just play more games" when they have played 1000 games, are trying to get better, and don't understand why they aren't improving is not helpful. And there are a lot of players in many leagues that are missing the essential mechanical elements of the game and reach a seemingly impassible skill plateau as a result. For some people, this system helps get past that plateau.
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On October 18 2012 13:36 JaKaTaK wrote:rikter, I want to make it clear. I am not promising anything to anyone. I am offering an alternative way to learn starcraft, that I find fun, engaging, and motivating, and so do many others, that's it. "Winners arent born though, they are made." Common man, don't throw dead cliches around like that, it doesn't help you any. Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 07:39 KingLumps wrote:
tbh unless a bronzy has played 1000+ games with the intention of getting better but is still in bronze I say the best answer is play more. Experience is everything, you can read all day and all night about strategy, about other races builds and how to respond and what not but it really does not help a person get better.
Seriously... When you experience/learn something in game, it just sticks... I can not explain it but it does. You may lose to a roach ling all in as toss maybe 50 times before you realize you need to check the 3rd between 4-5min, BUT once you make that realization it sticks and you generally remember to always look for the third, and hence are prepared.
Ahh its hard to explain because its such a weird thing, but honestly to any bronzey who is reading this thread, STOP. click the SC2 icon, and play some games. Because you will benefit 10000x more than reading this thread. I absolutely agree with pretty much everything but your conclusion. I think we're coming from the same place. This post is not about strategy, its about making a framework to play and experience Starcraft 2 that is less frustrating than having to figure everything out yourself. It narrows your options at the start, so that you can have more consistent experiences and really feel out the strengths and weaknesses of the individual units, as well as the race as a whole. It is an exercise in exploratory learning and deliberate practice. Telling someone to, "just play more games" when they have played 1000 games, are trying to get better, and don't understand why they aren't improving is not helpful. And there are a lot of players in many leagues that are missing the essential mechanical elements of the game and reach a seemingly impassible skill plateau as a result. For some people, this system helps get past that plateau.
Its hard to say you are really "learning starcraft" by doing this. You are learning key accuracy for sure, no matter what, but thats the only guarantee. All the other stuff is being done solo since there is an absence of boundaries, except for units, by design. And you have bounded the wrong thing anyways. Protoss gateway is balanced around the sentry. If you arent using sentries you really arent learning the proper roles of those units. Terran and zerg are also balanced around combined arms, though I cant say for sure which unit is the balance point. There really isnt much learning to be done on over simplified compositions because by design the units are supposed to be used together. Even on the later levels when you actually have all the units there is zero guidance on how to properly use them, so is thelevels really teaching anything there? Without even going into race specific strategy there are fundamental strategic concepts that apply to all games, problem solving techniques, all sorts of things you could talk about if you didnt want to bring in game specific strategy.
Winners being made is straight truth dude. Some people have it in their heads that these people are special or somehow different from them, and that is wrong. They are different in their current state, but anyone can get there if they work at it, and its always good to have someone more experienced than you helping you, so that you get the most out of your time. That is not the case here though, since you are the PEER of the players you are trying to help.
If someone is playing a thousand games and still in bronze, is key accuracy the likely culprit or is it maybe that they are seriously lacking strategically? After a thousand games Im sure they know how to hit the keys and what the units do, but theres no guarantee they will be any better at interpreting what they see, especially if they dont have someone more knowledgeable to talk to.
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1 question
How to pass to next levels?
I think I am doing everything corectly, but I pass to next level (1 lvl) when I ... left the game 
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On October 19 2012 03:01 rikter wrote:
Its hard to say you are really "learning starcraft" by doing this. You are learning key accuracy for sure, no matter what, but thats the only guarantee. All the other stuff is being done solo since there is an absence of boundaries, except for units, by design. And you have bounded the wrong thing anyways. Protoss gateway is balanced around the sentry. If you arent using sentries you really arent learning the proper roles of those units. Terran and zerg are also balanced around combined arms, though I cant say for sure which unit is the balance point. There really isnt much learning to be done on over simplified compositions because by design the units are supposed to be used together. Even on the later levels when you actually have all the units there is zero guidance on how to properly use them, so is thelevels really teaching anything there? Without even going into race specific strategy there are fundamental strategic concepts that apply to all games, problem solving techniques, all sorts of things you could talk about if you didnt want to bring in game specific strategy.
Winners being made is straight truth dude. Some people have it in their heads that these people are special or somehow different from them, and that is wrong. They are different in their current state, but anyone can get there if they work at it, and its always good to have someone more experienced than you helping you, so that you get the most out of your time. That is not the case here though, since you are the PEER of the players you are trying to help.
If someone is playing a thousand games and still in bronze, is key accuracy the likely culprit or is it maybe that they are seriously lacking strategically? After a thousand games Im sure they know how to hit the keys and what the units do, but theres no guarantee they will be any better at interpreting what they see, especially if they dont have someone more knowledgeable to talk to.
You know rikter, I've seen you post in these threads for weeks now, dishing out the same spiel about what TheLevels are lacking and all the negative aspects of this training method. What are you hoping to accomplish?
1) you are not providing any useful information to beginners looking to improve.
2) you are not providing any suggestions to improve upon the method as described short of constant criticism.
3) you are repeatedly criticizing the creator of this method based on his personal league or lack of skill.
Why are you wasting your time and ours? I don't understand.
If you don't agree with the goals of this system, go play your own games and improve as you'd like, or create your own thread with useful information from beginners. However, I don't think that's your goal -- I believe all of your posts are merely designed to discredit, not to provide any useful information.
It's obvious from the numerous posts that are not yours in this thread that many are enjoying and improving through TheLevels. Why does this fact seem to hurt you personally that you waste pages and pages of posts that are helping no one?
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You know rikter, I've seen you post in these threads for weeks now, dishing out the same spiel about what TheLevels are lacking and all the negative aspects of this training method. What are you hoping to accomplish?
He might try to point out flaws in the hope that Jak will try to impove TheLevels...
In the current form it really shouldn't be the only style of training for a player. (I doubt that the most will benefit from completing all Levels and there are many rewarding skills beside macro and beeing aggressive, which the users have to figure out by themselves alone...) Ultimately he tries to help new player (and maybe Jak)...
I was basically trying the same thing but gave up on him. (The thread is about TheLevels and I don't think the reason why I decided to not constribute anymore should be discussed here. However, if someone sees a need to do so: Pm me...)
Maybe you should stop posting anything here to not bump the thread over and over again with discussions. It should be obvious that the method is flawed. He could fix a few points, but he most likely won't change anything essential and we can't really influence it at all (not even with constructive critism).
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On October 19 2012 08:33 shogeki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 03:01 rikter wrote:
Its hard to say you are really "learning starcraft" by doing this. You are learning key accuracy for sure, no matter what, but thats the only guarantee. All the other stuff is being done solo since there is an absence of boundaries, except for units, by design. And you have bounded the wrong thing anyways. Protoss gateway is balanced around the sentry. If you arent using sentries you really arent learning the proper roles of those units. Terran and zerg are also balanced around combined arms, though I cant say for sure which unit is the balance point. There really isnt much learning to be done on over simplified compositions because by design the units are supposed to be used together. Even on the later levels when you actually have all the units there is zero guidance on how to properly use them, so is thelevels really teaching anything there? Without even going into race specific strategy there are fundamental strategic concepts that apply to all games, problem solving techniques, all sorts of things you could talk about if you didnt want to bring in game specific strategy.
Winners being made is straight truth dude. Some people have it in their heads that these people are special or somehow different from them, and that is wrong. They are different in their current state, but anyone can get there if they work at it, and its always good to have someone more experienced than you helping you, so that you get the most out of your time. That is not the case here though, since you are the PEER of the players you are trying to help.
If someone is playing a thousand games and still in bronze, is key accuracy the likely culprit or is it maybe that they are seriously lacking strategically? After a thousand games Im sure they know how to hit the keys and what the units do, but theres no guarantee they will be any better at interpreting what they see, especially if they dont have someone more knowledgeable to talk to.
You know rikter, I've seen you post in these threads for weeks now, dishing out the same spiel about what TheLevels are lacking and all the negative aspects of this training method. What are you hoping to accomplish? 1) you are not providing any useful information to beginners looking to improve. 2) you are not providing any suggestions to improve upon the method as described short of constant criticism. 3) you are repeatedly criticizing the creator of this method based on his personal league or lack of skill. Why are you wasting your time and ours? I don't understand. If you don't agree with the goals of this system, go play your own games and improve as you'd like, or create your own thread with useful information from beginners. However, I don't think that's your goal -- I believe all of your posts are merely designed to discredit, not to provide any useful information. It's obvious from the numerous posts that are not yours in this thread that many are enjoying and improving through TheLevels. Why does this fact seem to hurt you personally that you waste pages and pages of posts that are helping no one?
1) There is in fact information for people looking to improve. Quite a bit of it actually, since when posting I have taken the time to explain my position.
2) Dude I have made numerous suggestions in both this thread and the other, some of which were not responded to or ignored by OP, others which were and are allegedly being implemented (the map, for instance. Dont believe anyone brought that up before me).
3) Its true Ive brought that up more than once, though it represents a tiny fraction of what Ive said. League is a valid reference point since the experience is different in the different leagues. Its not a be all end all, but if youre in a low league giving advice high level understanding will serve better than high level mechanics. This is, afterall, a realtime STRATEGY game...
Maybe Jak will make the changes, maybe he wont. He at least has the time to do something useful so maybe he will. I havent been able to play lately because Ive been so busy with new job and stuff, so its nice to talk a little starcraft. Its probably true though that if I didnt post this would not be consistently high on the front page.
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On October 19 2012 10:27 Uncreative_Troll wrote:
He might try to point out flaws in the hope that Jak will try to impove TheLevels...
Most people will point out the flaws as they see it and be done, posting over and over again the same material is not useful.
In the current form it really shouldn't be the only style of training for a player.
This is true, but would you tell a football player to give up on drills and just go play real games of football instead? That's the only thing rikter is doing in this thread. In most disciplines, training in a variety of ways is embraced openly. TheLevels can be considered conditioning training for Boxing - while it doesn't directly help with technique, it is invaluable due to improved strength and stamina at all phases of execution.
he most likely won't change anything essential and we can't really influence it at all (not even with constructive critism).
This is false - Jak has changed a great number of things in TheLevels over time, partly based on the constructive ideas he's received. However, to expect him to change the core idea of the training is foolish.
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I'm not entirely sure I understand some of the complaints. While I think this is the right approach to improving for many people, it's not exactly a revolutionary new idea. This is how teachers and coaches have been teaching for a very long time.
The advice to "just play more games and you'll get better" makes so many assumptions it's basically useless. Random practice does not perfect; at best, it can make you decent but it's just as likely to make you worse. Deliberate practice will make a player perform better. As mentioned, that's why our coaches forced us to do the same drills over and over ad nauseum. You keep doing those drills until it's second nature. That's how I viewed this approach. Focus on one thing (one drill) and repeat it until you've got it then add a second drill.
I'm not sure how anyone could disagree with this. The main benefit of this is that it lays out a plan for players that are perpetually stuck at the lower levels. There are probably some changes that could made to some of the levels and maybe some of the metrics could be changed but those are far less important than the main goal of developing a viable practice routine.
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On October 19 2012 18:19 supernovice007 wrote:
I'm not entirely sure I understand some of the complaints. While I think this is the right approach to improving for many people, it's not exactly a revolutionary new idea. This is how teachers and coaches have been teaching for a very long time.
The advice to "just play more games and you'll get better" makes so many assumptions it's basically useless. Random practice does not perfect; at best, it can make you decent but it's just as likely to make you worse. Deliberate practice will make a player perform better. As mentioned, that's why our coaches forced us to do the same drills over and over ad nauseum. You keep doing those drills until it's second nature. That's how I viewed this approach. Focus on one thing (one drill) and repeat it until you've got it then add a second drill.
I'm not sure how anyone could disagree with this. The main benefit of this is that it lays out a plan for players that are perpetually stuck at the lower levels. There are probably some changes that could made to some of the levels and maybe some of the metrics could be changed but those are far less important than the main goal of developing a viable practice routine.
I think that as-is thelevels would be PERFECT for a certain type of player. This type of player is someone with no experience in these types of games, and isnt interested in playing better. They are not playying 1v1 they are playing teams (likely with their bf/gf/spouse/we) and they need a way to learn the most basic skills so they arent a total anchor. The unit restrictions dont hurt as much for them because teammates can pick up slack and the lack of proper builds or strategy doesnt matter because they arent interested in the complete game, they just want to have a tiny bit of functionality for social reasons.
the levels is like a football drill, true, but football players do a LOT of different drills, to approximate ALL the things they will do in a game, and there is no way that can be said about this. This is just one drill. As far as developing a practice routine I dont see anything in there about this. Sure, you could learn it while doing this, but its not like there is any instruction.
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On October 19 2012 21:57 rikter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 18:19 supernovice007 wrote:
I'm not entirely sure I understand some of the complaints. While I think this is the right approach to improving for many people, it's not exactly a revolutionary new idea. This is how teachers and coaches have been teaching for a very long time.
The advice to "just play more games and you'll get better" makes so many assumptions it's basically useless. Random practice does not perfect; at best, it can make you decent but it's just as likely to make you worse. Deliberate practice will make a player perform better. As mentioned, that's why our coaches forced us to do the same drills over and over ad nauseum. You keep doing those drills until it's second nature. That's how I viewed this approach. Focus on one thing (one drill) and repeat it until you've got it then add a second drill.
I'm not sure how anyone could disagree with this. The main benefit of this is that it lays out a plan for players that are perpetually stuck at the lower levels. There are probably some changes that could made to some of the levels and maybe some of the metrics could be changed but those are far less important than the main goal of developing a viable practice routine. I think that as-is thelevels would be PERFECT for a certain type of player. This type of player is someone with no experience in these types of games, and isnt interested in playing better. They are not playying 1v1 they are playing teams (likely with their bf/gf/spouse/we) and they need a way to learn the most basic skills so they arent a total anchor. The unit restrictions dont hurt as much for them because teammates can pick up slack and the lack of proper builds or strategy doesnt matter because they arent interested in the complete game, they just want to have a tiny bit of functionality for social reasons. the levels is like a football drill, true, but football players do a LOT of different drills, to approximate ALL the things they will do in a game, and there is no way that can be said about this. This is just one drill. As far as developing a practice routine I dont see anything in there about this. Sure, you could learn it while doing this, but its not like there is any instruction.
I don't see how you can make that generalization. If people are taking the effort to follow a learning method how can you say that they are not interested in playing better? Saying that they are not is really dumb way of looking at it. Also I don't think you have the data for your assertion that they mainly play team game
Jak, I suggest that you do a survey. It would be cool to know more about the people trying out the levels. As a seperate note I suspect there are far more players in the silver to plat than straight up bronzes but like rikter I don't have any evidence to back up that theory.
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rikter,
I've also seen you in this tread and the previous one non-stop. You've made your points (about 57 times since every three posts there is one of yours). Most people disagree with you, the OP disagrees with you, please let it go. Just let the rest use (and then discuss) this method, since you're just repeating the same thing over and over and over again, with everyone else still trying to ignore/disagree with your posts.
Just let it go, and do something else.
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Jinbo,
Like jak has said everyone has different motivations for learning the game. Some may not aspire to great heights and thats cool. The above was just a plausible scenario for someone who would definitely be better off doing this than learning builds, if only to prove that I am not just dismissing this out of hand. It has some use, for sure.
Weerwolf,
If you think Ive been repeating the same thing you very clearly have been, at best, skimming posts. Responses have addressed issues raised by other posters. You have no right or authority to ask me to stop posting here, and it is my business if I choose to continue doing so. My posts follow all forum guidelines and have received zero admin action. And while you may think I am bad for the thread things I have mentioned have been implemented, and thats not even considering that my posts keep this thread near the top, so more people end up seeing it.
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I'm really interested in TheLevels,but I'm still undecided, if I find it useful for me. The following thoughts are circling in my mind:
What I find useful:
* The Benchmarks
* Introducing new Units step by step
* Winning the game is less important than hitting the benchmarks
What I have have problems with:
* The feeling I cannot win the game as Protoss at low levels in higher leagues (no obs vs banshees, no AoE damage). Although winning the is not the goal, I want at least to have the chance to do so.
* Alternated Macro and Micro Levels (eg. why building sentries when not really using them). It feels like that the next macro level sets me back after I had already microed before)
* The order in which the new units are introduced is based on the buildings, i would rather liked them in the order that can make me actually win a game (earlier obs and e.g. earlier colossus). I don't feel that microing my stalkers can make me win against stimmed marines, while a colossus would. So i prefer a macro Colossus Level over a micro Stalker level.
* I don't feel that i have a constant improvement with the Levels: Why is my skill higher if I hit the benchmarks at Level21 (VoidRay) then at Level15 (Dark Templar). I'd rather have an order where I first focus on Macro (only A-Move allowed), then Micro, then Harass and finally LateGame-Unis.
So I came to the idea to create my own Protoss Levels which I want to think about instead: Same benchmarks, but different Unit Order.
TheBQLevels (first ideas):
+ Show Spoiler +Level Goal Unit Unlocked Building/Upgrade Unlocked
1 Macro Probe,Zealot Nexus, Pylon, Forge, Cannon
2 Macro Stalker Assimilator, Cybernatics Core
3 Scouting Observer Robotics Facility
4 Macro Twilight Council, Charge
5 Macro Immortal
6 Macro Colossus Robotics Bay, Thermal Lance
7 Macro Melee+Attack Upgrade
8 Macro Sentry Guardian Shield
9 Micro ForceField
10 Micro Hallucination
11 Micro Blink
12 Micro Archon Templar Archive
13 Micro High Templar Storm
14 Harass WarpPrism Obs + Warp Prism Speed
15 Harass Dark Templar Dark Shrine
16 Harass Phoenix Stargate + Air Upgrades
17 Harass Void Ray
18 LateGame Mothership
19 LateGame Carrier
This way I hope I feel more comfortable using a TheLevels-System in the 1v1 ladder.
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My experience, as a diamond player that tried it. My goal was to enhance my macro and integrate camera hotkeys into my play. I tanked my MMR to silver-gold before starting. I climbed the levels until like 10 and resumed normal gaming, although while always trying to emphasize macro over micro in my play.
This is a great tool to learn to macro like a boss and stop worrying about losses. You will learn how to use your hotkeys and spend your money. You will learn to stop watching the fights and go back to your bases to macro. You will win PvPs with only zealots (no kidding).
You will not win games with this past gold though. You will need to micro at some point (I know, every other level is supposedly about micro), and it'll destroy your macro This will not really help against rushes (proxy 2gate, 6-8 pools, 11/11 rax...).
All in all it's a great tool to boost your macro, which will get you in gold in no time. Even experienced players can have some fun and get some out of it. It's not a be-all, end-all because you will NOT learn micro, positioning, army composition with it. You will find it very very frustrating to lose games because you cannot micro (HTs? fugetaboutit). And as a protoss, I found it very hard to not make sentries for 4 levels, and to not be "authorized" to use them out of my base every other level (the "no micro" ones). Honestly I'm not fond of the separation between macro and micro levels. The metrics to advance are macro-related anyway, so there is no use to split them until you can figure out micro metrics.
I cannot really say if it's a great way to learn the game from the start because I'm too far past that, though.
Thanks JaK for this! It's another great way to have fun with SC2, and become better at it.
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On October 19 2012 10:46 rikter wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 19 2012 08:33 shogeki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 03:01 rikter wrote:
Its hard to say you are really "learning starcraft" by doing this. You are learning key accuracy for sure, no matter what, but thats the only guarantee. All the other stuff is being done solo since there is an absence of boundaries, except for units, by design. And you have bounded the wrong thing anyways. Protoss gateway is balanced around the sentry. If you arent using sentries you really arent learning the proper roles of those units. Terran and zerg are also balanced around combined arms, though I cant say for sure which unit is the balance point. There really isnt much learning to be done on over simplified compositions because by design the units are supposed to be used together. Even on the later levels when you actually have all the units there is zero guidance on how to properly use them, so is thelevels really teaching anything there? Without even going into race specific strategy there are fundamental strategic concepts that apply to all games, problem solving techniques, all sorts of things you could talk about if you didnt want to bring in game specific strategy.
Winners being made is straight truth dude. Some people have it in their heads that these people are special or somehow different from them, and that is wrong. They are different in their current state, but anyone can get there if they work at it, and its always good to have someone more experienced than you helping you, so that you get the most out of your time. That is not the case here though, since you are the PEER of the players you are trying to help.
If someone is playing a thousand games and still in bronze, is key accuracy the likely culprit or is it maybe that they are seriously lacking strategically? After a thousand games Im sure they know how to hit the keys and what the units do, but theres no guarantee they will be any better at interpreting what they see, especially if they dont have someone more knowledgeable to talk to.
You know rikter, I've seen you post in these threads for weeks now, dishing out the same spiel about what TheLevels are lacking and all the negative aspects of this training method. What are you hoping to accomplish? 1) you are not providing any useful information to beginners looking to improve. 2) you are not providing any suggestions to improve upon the method as described short of constant criticism. 3) you are repeatedly criticizing the creator of this method based on his personal league or lack of skill. Why are you wasting your time and ours? I don't understand. If you don't agree with the goals of this system, go play your own games and improve as you'd like, or create your own thread with useful information from beginners. However, I don't think that's your goal -- I believe all of your posts are merely designed to discredit, not to provide any useful information. It's obvious from the numerous posts that are not yours in this thread that many are enjoying and improving through TheLevels. Why does this fact seem to hurt you personally that you waste pages and pages of posts that are helping no one? 1) There is in fact information for people looking to improve. Quite a bit of it actually, since when posting I have taken the time to explain my position. 2) Dude I have made numerous suggestions in both this thread and the other, some of which were not responded to or ignored by OP, others which were and are allegedly being implemented (the map, for instance. Dont believe anyone brought that up before me). 3) Its true Ive brought that up more than once, though it represents a tiny fraction of what Ive said. League is a valid reference point since the experience is different in the different leagues. Its not a be all end all, but if youre in a low league giving advice high level understanding will serve better than high level mechanics. This is, afterall, a realtime STRATEGY game... + Show Spoiler +
Maybe Jak will make the changes, maybe he wont. He at least has the time to do something useful so maybe he will. I havent been able to play lately because Ive been so busy with new job and stuff, so its nice to talk a little starcraft. Its probably true though that if I didnt post this would not be consistently high on the front page.
Yes, we are talking about a realitme STRATEGY game here, but we are also talking about a REALTIME strategy game. This point has been mentioned before, (by JaK himself in one of the introductions, I believe) but knowing the ins and outs of all the strategies in the game won't do anything for you if you don't have the mechanics to execute them. Back in the BW days, I read everything about strategy I could find on TeamLiquid and the rest of the internet. Armed with all that knowledge, I won maybe 10% of my games. I simply didn't have the mechanics.
StarCraft is a game that tests both your knowledge and your physical ability. You can't succeed without doing well in both of these areas. Some people need to learn to accomplish tasks in realtime, others only need to know what those tasks should be. There are plenty of guides on TeamLiquid and the rest of the internet focused on learning strategy; JaK's guide is geared towards the other aspect of the game. In terms of mechanics, JaK's training method has helped me immensely, and I think it's a great idea to apply to StarCraft.
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