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Regarding alternate levels - I think it's important to make sure that no level contains access to a building for only an infrequent purpose. As an example, you wouldn't want to give people access to the robotics bay and only let them use observers, because you don't really want to teach people to only make observers. I'd modify the protoss levels as follows.
Level Goal Unit Unlocked Building/Upgrade Unlocked
1 Macro Probe,Zealot Nexus, Pylon, Forge, Cannon <----All basic openings in the game possible.
2 Macro Stalker Assimilator, Cybernatics Core <---All gateway play now possible.
3 Macro Observer, Immortal, Robotics Facility <---A lot of full game plans now possible - you won't insta-lose to anything
4 Micro Observer scouting <---Really important part of protoss gameplay.
5 Macro Colossus Robotics Bay, Thermal Lance <---Now you can full robo-play builds.
6 Macro Melee+Attack Upgrade <---Now you can do better builds.
7 Macro Sentry Guardian Shield <---Even better builds!
8 Micro ForceField <---KEY PROTOSS SKILL HERE.
9 Macro Twilight Council, Charge <--Now on to the next-most-important tech tree, Twilight Council. The macro level...
10 Micro Blink <--And the micro level
11 Macro Archon Templar Archive <----The Macro
12 Micro High Templar Storm
----------------
We're now pretty much done with what you NEED to play protoss. Now we're going to do luxuries, pretty much in descending order of importance.
13 Harass WarpPrism Obs + Warp Prism Speed
14 Harass Dark Templar Dark Shrine
15 Harass Phoenix/Void Ray Stargate + Air Upgrades
16 Micro Hallucination
17 Macro Mothership Carrier
---------------
The idea is that, as a 'toss, by exploring the most stable macro-tree first (Robo), we'll let people win games without adding significant complexity to their macro. At level 3 you can win any game, and incorporating 4 and 5 will make you win more. Everything after that is just refinement.
-Cross (Edit - obviously, total credit to that dude before me who did the initial re-breakdown...)
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On October 26 2012 11:09 JaKaTaK wrote:
changed back to 0 supply blocks. I agree.
Concerning the SQ, almost no one is getting 100 3 times in a row. 95 is much more reasonable. I feel like 100 may be the area of diminishing returns.
All right then, I'll go with 100.
On October 26 2012 12:15 Crosswind wrote:Regarding alternate levels - I think it's important to make sure that no level contains access to a building for only an infrequent purpose. As an example, you wouldn't want to give people access to the robotics bay and only let them use observers, because you don't really want to teach people to only make observers. I'd modify the protoss levels as follows. + Show Spoiler +Level Goal Unit Unlocked Building/Upgrade Unlocked
1 Macro Probe,Zealot Nexus, Pylon, Forge, Cannon <----All basic openings in the game possible.
2 Macro Stalker Assimilator, Cybernatics Core <---All gateway play now possible.
3 Macro Observer, Immortal, Robotics Facility <---A lot of full game plans now possible - you won't insta-lose to anything
4 Micro Observer scouting <---Really important part of protoss gameplay.
5 Macro Colossus Robotics Bay, Thermal Lance <---Now you can full robo-play builds.
6 Macro Melee+Attack Upgrade <---Now you can do better builds.
7 Macro Sentry Guardian Shield <---Even better builds!
8 Micro ForceField <---KEY PROTOSS SKILL HERE.
9 Macro Twilight Council, Charge <--Now on to the next-most-important tech tree, Twilight Council. The macro level...
10 Micro Blink <--And the micro level
11 Macro Archon Templar Archive <----The Macro
12 Micro High Templar Storm
----------------
We're now pretty much done with what you NEED to play protoss. Now we're going to do luxuries, pretty much in descending order of importance.
13 Harass WarpPrism Obs + Warp Prism Speed
14 Harass Dark Templar Dark Shrine
15 Harass Phoenix/Void Ray Stargate + Air Upgrades
16 Micro Hallucination
17 Macro Mothership Carrier
--------------- The idea is that, as a 'toss, by exploring the most stable macro-tree first (Robo), we'll let people win games without adding significant complexity to their macro. At level 3 you can win any game, and incorporating 4 and 5 will make you win more. Everything after that is just refinement. -Cross (Edit - obviously, total credit to that dude before me who did the initial re-breakdown...)
You can get any upgrade as soon as you have the structures needed to research it, so the Thermal Lance, 1/1 (Melee and Air), Charge, Blink, Storm, Obs+Prism Speed, and Hallu mentions are unnecessary.
Oh, and on your first point about building a Robo and only being able to build Obs, Immos come out of Robos w/o additional buildings too.
I'm really more of a fan of worrying only about macro first. But, if you're playing through the levels and decide that you can micro some while still macroing to the best of your ability, then I suggest you do. If your macro diminishes, then don't try it again for at least a few games.
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Thank you so much for your efforts of developing this system!! I've been playing for a long time and got stuck in platin somehow, but I'll throw everything all over, start using TheCore and practice using TheLevels. I've read through every bit of both of your posts (TheCore and TheLevels) and I am just amazed, of the potential that it has to improve yourself, even though I even started yet. Gonna get lunch, sit down and train!
Can't thank you enough!
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On October 26 2012 20:25 Antylamon wrote:
You can get any upgrade as soon as you have the structures needed to research it, so the Thermal Lance, 1/1 (Melee and Air), Charge, Blink, Storm, Obs+Prism Speed, and Hallu mentions are unnecessary.
Oh, and on your first point about building a Robo and only being able to build Obs, Immos come out of Robos w/o additional buildings too.
Sorry. To be clear, the issue with TheLevels, which a number of people have pointed out, is that you auto-lose to a whole bunch of junk before level 7. While the point of thelevels isn't to win, winning never hurt anybody. A bright fellow, last page, whose name I don't remember, posited an alternative system, which had a few flaws but was by and large nice, and I corrected its flaws. =)
-Cross
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@Antylamon
Definitely let me know how it goes. Like how long it takes you to clear levels etc etc. I don't want anyone getting stuck on a level for too long unnecessarily.
@Cross
I think that this alternative system lacks the autonomy of the way it is now. I feel like the "but I'll auto-lose against X" argument is mostly on paper and doesn't actually happen too often in games. I've played 300ish games on the new levels and have had this situation happen to me 2-3 times.
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On October 26 2012 22:23 Crosswind wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 20:25 Antylamon wrote:
You can get any upgrade as soon as you have the structures needed to research it, so the Thermal Lance, 1/1 (Melee and Air), Charge, Blink, Storm, Obs+Prism Speed, and Hallu mentions are unnecessary.
Oh, and on your first point about building a Robo and only being able to build Obs, Immos come out of Robos w/o additional buildings too.
Sorry. To be clear, the issue with TheLevels, which a number of people have pointed out, is that you auto-lose to a whole bunch of junk before level 7. While the point of thelevels isn't to win, winning never hurt anybody. A bright fellow, last page, whose name I don't remember, posited an alternative system, which had a few flaws but was by and large nice, and I corrected its flaws. =) -Cross
I am playing against the AI for all of the macro levels, so I don't have this experience. I highly recommend this to everyone. I'm probably even going to extend this to the first few micro/multitasking levels as well.
As for everyone who continues to ladder through TheLevels, I'll just have to listen to yours and everyone else's thoughts.
On October 27 2012 04:04 JaKaTaK wrote:
@Antylamon
Definitely let me know how it goes. Like how long it takes you to clear levels etc etc. I don't want anyone getting stuck on a level for too long unnecessarily.
Keep in mind that I'm a bit of a race hopper. I'm trying out Toss because it's closer to Terran/BW macro and because Psi Storm, so I'll be going through TheLevels as Toss. My icon will still be Zerg because it was my BW race. :D
That said, my average SQ on macro level 1 is about 120. I'm staying on level 1 for a little while longer so I can get through it without ever forgetting Probe production. My personal limit is ~3 real life seconds of delay. I'm fine on SBs.
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Due to the confusion sure to arise with the new Blizzard Levels in HotS, we will be changing the name of this improvement method to TheStaircase and each level will be instead referred to as a Step.
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If each level is now a Step I would have changed the name of the method to TheSteps or maybe TheStairs. Staircase is such an unfamiliar English word for me. But at least I've relearned a forgotten word 
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The one thing I didn't like about TheLevels as a name was that it was plural. Making it singluar is better IMO. I see what you mean about unfamiliar english words though.
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On October 30 2012 04:23 JaKaTaK wrote:
Due to the confusion sure to arise with the new Blizzard Levels in HotS, we will be changing the name of this improvement method to TheStaircase and each level will be instead referred to as a Step.
Drop the "the". It's cleaner.
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On October 31 2012 02:55 Sturmis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 04:23 JaKaTaK wrote:
Due to the confusion sure to arise with the new Blizzard Levels in HotS, we will be changing the name of this improvement method to TheStaircase and each level will be instead referred to as a Step. Drop the "the". It's cleaner.
Naaaaa, the "The" is what connects all the different tools/programs. It stays 
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On October 10 2012 06:14 GoldenPro wrote:
This is a complete waste of time. You cannot simply become better in any reasonable amount of time by limiting yourself to bad play. You're telling people to only build Zealots/Marine/Zerglings for level 1, and moving up to a few units on the next levels without micro'ing their units at all or anything. It's just fucking pointless. This game is not that simple and there's no reason to practice this way, because it's 100% non-viable in any high level of play. Why would you practice a mechanically and strategically complex game using only 1 variable? If you want to master StarCraft 2, then you shouldn't play like an idiot on purpose. If you seriously cannot find yourself capable of doing 120'ish+ APM and correct unit compositions/timings every game, then you need to forget about any kind of goal of "improving" or becoming one of the best players, just play for lols, because you will be a joke forever.
StarCraft 2 is not a game of long-term improvement or skill. There is 1 game, one 1v1 on ladder. or a Bo3/5/7/etc in a tournament settings. Why should you have a goal to have an "SQ" of a certain number and no supply blocks with only zealots/marines/zerglings? It has no relevance to standard and correct play. Once you implement more structures/units into the game the relationships fall apart, and what you did with only 1 unit doesn't work with 2, 3,etc. anymore. You cannot "master" this game in small baby steps. You will master it by playing the correct way over and over. You obviously know nothing about RTS gaming, and you should consider a different hobby, because you're going no where.
User was banned (PBU).
Fucking idiot!
Always someone, really hope he got banned for real
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hahaha, yea, there be trolls about. Luckily, the mods are awesome That's why TL is so much more constructive that reddit or elsewhere. They keep it real :D
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I'm starting into this as well. Passing against a hard computer then taking it to the ladder on my smurf account. So far it has been a lot of fun. I am a silver league Protoss who, before starting this was about to break into Gold. I've been finding most of the macro level easy, only ones giving me real trouble are the micro ones, which is great because it points out exactly what my problem is.
In another note, tried to use the SQ calc that you link in TheStaircase but I couldn't stand it. I am currently rewriting it using no proprietary tech (flash makes me sad) as well as having a real sign in that is Mozilla Persona (think like Facebook sign in without needing a facebook account, just an email address) so you can publicly post your graph without worry that someone will tamper with it. I hope to try to implement an import mechanism from the one on AppSpot but it isn't my main priority.
If you wanna follow the development (happening in my free time) you can find it on github: https://github.com/wraithan/spendingq
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This is so hard for me with Zerg on step 3.
I throw down Makro Hatches left and right but on 2-3 bases I have sooo many mins.
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@Wraithan
Holy shit man, that's awesome. Can you also make the graph go to 175 instead of 100 please! You are a boss :D
@FlOverlord
Likely the biggest issue is your injects. Make sure you're hitting all of them. What's your max energy on an injecting queen? (a queen that only injects once she starts injecting)
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Yes of course i need to work on my Injects I know that. Also I'm having a little trouble with queens wandering around sometimes.
Most of the times everything goes alright until I'm about to be maxed. After that I can't seem to be spending fast enough even if I randomly throw units into terran walls or something. Eventually he'll then kill me of course.
This feels not good by the way. I know it's not about winning but randomly throwing units away just to spend your stuff feels "odd" to say the least.
Anyway I'll keep trying. Progress shows up very slow but it's there I guess.
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Mmm its very important to establish the mentality that winning and losing are not the important part. You will be put at an area in the ladder that you are winning 50% of the time anyway. Its not going to make you feel good to care to much about winning and losing.
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I love this idea. It looks like a very good system.
However, I'm focused on four things when I decided I would playy SC2 after watching so many pros games:
- Hit benchmarks
- Improve mechanics
- Get to Gold (for now...)
- Being solid/consistent with a build
But the thing is... I'm quite confused on how to use this tool. Don't get me wrong, I'm motivated as hell to get better mechanics and stuff, but I just don't understand HOW to use this tool which is kind of sad since I'm already focusing on nailing filter's tutorial, I watched lots of dApollo tutorials but I know what I need the most are mechanics.
Any help is appreciated. Thanks
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On November 02 2012 00:11 FlOverlord wrote:
Yes of course i need to work on my Injects I know that. Also I'm having a little trouble with queens wandering around sometimes.
Most of the times everything goes alright until I'm about to be maxed. After that I can't seem to be spending fast enough even if I randomly throw units into terran walls or something. Eventually he'll then kill me of course.
This feels not good by the way. I know it's not about winning but randomly throwing units away just to spend your stuff feels "odd" to say the least.
The next step, is to be more deliberate in throwing away your units. You'll have such a better economy than your opponent that even though you aren't exactly countering their build you can just swarm and kill.
Also, well, it isn't about winning for now, it is about getting better at the game. :D
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EPT
