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On October 20 2012 00:01 Becuula wrote:
I'm really interested in TheLevels,but I'm still undecided, if I find it useful for me. The following thoughts are circling in my mind:
What I find useful:
* The Benchmarks
* Introducing new Units step by step
* Winning the game is less important than hitting the benchmarks
What I have have problems with:
* The feeling I cannot win the game as Protoss at low levels in higher leagues (no obs vs banshees, no AoE damage). Although winning the is not the goal, I want at least to have the chance to do so.
* Alternated Macro and Micro Levels (eg. why building sentries when not really using them). It feels like that the next macro level sets me back after I had already microed before)
* The order in which the new units are introduced is based on the buildings, i would rather liked them in the order that can make me actually win a game (earlier obs and e.g. earlier colossus). I don't feel that microing my stalkers can make me win against stimmed marines, while a colossus would. So i prefer a macro Colossus Level over a micro Stalker level.
Totally agree with this, especially the bolded line. Intellectually, we can all say improving is more important than winning but the truth is that you have to win some games. Very, very few people could keep playing when it's loss after loss after loss. It's demoralizing and it's asking a big leap of faith to assume you're improving when your record says otherwise.
I play Terran so I was fortunate that the first 6 levels are MMM but after losing a few too many games to burrowed banes and DTs, I had to move Ravens down to level 7. It would be good to rearrange the levels a bit to put a viable strategy with one or two support units in the first 10 levels.
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The thing is, that the ladder will move you to a place where you are winning half of your games pretty much no matter what. I do see where this would be an issue for a plat+ player picking up the system, but for gold and below I don't think winning is an issue. You will definitely win many games. (likely about half)
Do you use ravens for DTs and burrowed banes? I usually see pro players scanning.
On October 20 2012 00:01 Becuula wrote:I'm really interested in TheLevels,but I'm still undecided, if I find it useful for me. The following thoughts are circling in my mind: What I find useful: * The Benchmarks * Introducing new Units step by step * Winning the game is less important than hitting the benchmarks What I have have problems with: * The feeling I cannot win the game as Protoss at low levels in higher leagues (no obs vs banshees, no AoE damage). Although winning the is not the goal, I want at least to have the chance to do so. * Alternated Macro and Micro Levels (eg. why building sentries when not really using them). It feels like that the next macro level sets me back after I had already microed before) * The order in which the new units are introduced is based on the buildings, i would rather liked them in the order that can make me actually win a game (earlier obs and e.g. earlier colossus). I don't feel that microing my stalkers can make me win against stimmed marines, while a colossus would. So i prefer a macro Colossus Level over a micro Stalker level. * I don't feel that i have a constant improvement with the Levels: Why is my skill higher if I hit the benchmarks at Level21 (VoidRay) then at Level15 (Dark Templar). I'd rather have an order where I first focus on Macro (only A-Move allowed), then Micro, then Harass and finally LateGame-Unis. So I came to the idea to create my own Protoss Levels which I want to think about instead: Same benchmarks, but different Unit Order. TheBQLevels (first ideas): + Show Spoiler +Level Goal Unit Unlocked Building/Upgrade Unlocked
1 Macro Probe,Zealot Nexus, Pylon, Forge, Cannon
2 Macro Stalker Assimilator, Cybernatics Core
3 Scouting Observer Robotics Facility
4 Macro Twilight Council, Charge
5 Macro Immortal
6 Macro Colossus Robotics Bay, Thermal Lance
7 Macro Melee+Attack Upgrade
8 Macro Sentry Guardian Shield
9 Micro ForceField
10 Micro Hallucination
11 Micro Blink
12 Micro Archon Templar Archive
13 Micro High Templar Storm
14 Harass WarpPrism Obs + Warp Prism Speed
15 Harass Dark Templar Dark Shrine
16 Harass Phoenix Stargate + Air Upgrades
17 Harass Void Ray
18 LateGame Mothership
19 LateGame Carrier
This way I hope I feel more comfortable using a TheLevels-System in the 1v1 ladder.
I really appreciate you taking the time to detail this response. I am definitely interested in incorporating some of these ideas.
Scouting, Harass, and LateGame are not mechanics, but the focus areas of each level do not have a big impact on the system if they are just names. Do you have specific goals with these 3 labels, or are you just focusing on those things on those levels?
We have messed around with orders like this. Giving the A-move units first, then adding in the more micro intensive units later. I am definitely considering it. I don't think that putting restrictions on the upgrades is helpful though. Blink can be great defensively, as can forcefield, and storm. I think its important to clarify that YOU CAN MICRO ON MACRO LEVELS. But when attacking, you should not look at the battles. Use attack move and the minimap to send your forces out. Macro should be the focus of the macro levels, but that doesn't mean you aren't allowed to micro at all.
That being said, moving the sentry after 3 of the robo units is an interesting idea, and I like it a lot. Pretty sure we're going to implement it.
I am also going to look at similar ideas for the other races.
Anyone else have unit orders they think will help net more wins earlier and boost confidence?
EDIT:
On October 19 2012 07:20 Mar_1910 wrote:1 question How to pass to next levels? I think I am doing everything corectly, but I pass to next level (1 lvl) when I ... left the game 
So sorry I missed your question. You move on to the next level when you have fulfilled the benchmarks for your goal league 3 games in a row. (should be in "TheLevels" video)
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On October 20 2012 04:48 JaKaTaK wrote:
Scouting, Harass, and LateGame are not mechanics, but the focus areas of each level do not have a big impact on the system if they are just names. Do you have specific goals with these 3 labels, or are you just focusing on those things on those levels?
I think I would call them mainly just names. They should clarify the improvement you make while using this unit/upgrade order.
In my system you really begin with just A-moving your units, almost only focussing on macro, with the one exception scouting which is a fundamental skill for me just like macro, you should get used to it early.
Then you climb up in TheBQLevels and micro is introduced. You focus on the new unit (eg sentry) but also begin to micro your "old units", while still hitting your benchmarks. The next generation of micro for me is harassing the opponent, so these specific units are introduced.
The highest levels finally introduce the late game Units.
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On October 20 2012 04:48 JaKaTaK wrote:
The thing is, that the ladder will move you to a place where you are winning half of your games pretty much no matter what. I do see where this would be an issue for a plat+ player picking up the system, but for gold and below I don't think winning is an issue. You will definitely win many games. (likely about half)
If the opponent is using a lot of cloaked units, then I do sprinkle in some Ravens. I've watched pros using scans and agree that it is a better solution. I tried it that way for a long time. I just don't have their experience or game sense though so I would invariably be without a scan at a crucial time or I would end up wasting scans.
This is definitely something I could improve on. It's very low on my list of things to focus on and the penalty is so severe for misusing scans that I ultimately decided a couple Ravens are a better solution for now. Once I feel more comfortable with my macro and micro, I can focus on making better use of scans. Whether they would admit it or not, I suspect ALOT of terran players plat or below are in the same situation I am and would benefit from just using Ravens and turrets instead of trying to make due with scans and mass OC.
For build orders, I can't give any advice on Protoss but for terran, maybe this would be better?
1 - SCV, Marine
3 - Marauder
5 - Medivac
7 - Siege Tank
9 - Viking
11 - Raven
This feels better to me as it gives a player some solid strategies against any opponent early on. The only one that is questionable there is the Raven; it seems like it doesn't get used very much but I've found it to be useful in almost all of my matches so I'm including it.
I would also suggest moving the harass style units (hellion, reaper, banshee) towards the end. It's hard to harass and keep your macro up. It's really easy to get focused on the harass and forget that you still need to be building your base. I would move this down the list to make sure that a players macro is automatic before including early game micro-intensive units.
As Becuula was mentioning, just make it simple early. Get a ball of marines with some tanks and a medivac or two and go. There's some micro required but it's not overly taxing and it keeps the micro out of the early part of the game. More importantly, it's going to keep a player competitive in every game they play.
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Thank you for 4.3, level 2 is exactly what was needed! (for protoss)
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And to those who think the levels are a waste of time: (eg. Richter) This method of learning has opened my mind to things that I would never have thought of, because I was obsessed with memorizing a "build-order'. I am in silver, and my ranking has NOT CHANGED despite being on the levels. This (in my mind) must mean that, at my level, "The Levels" is at least as effective as everything I have been reading and trying to implement. The big difference is that The Levels is teaching me the BASICS before the advanced stuff, that is frankly out of my league.
I dont anticipate being on The Levels all the way to Masters. I think I can graduate from this system well before then. And then, I think I will have the Macro mechanics, Key Pressing, etc. in my sub-conscious. After that creativity/imagination can be applied.
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Introduce the first level with just one unit, zeal/mar/ling. You can do some stuff with these. Then add the units in pairs: stalker sentry, roach bane, reaper marauder etc. By level 1.2 you would be working with enough that you should be able to win games.
Edit: win more games because you are less susceptable to build order losses/hard counters whose counter you havent unlocked.
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On October 19 2012 23:36 rikter wrote:
If you think Ive been repeating the same thing you very clearly have been, at best, skimming posts.
I think the exact same thing, and the best thing that can come out of me replying to the likes of you is that the thread will be constantly bumped, since your feedback has become worthless since the first couple of posts.
Scouting, Harass, and LateGame are not mechanics
While Late Game is clearly not a mechanic, Scouting and Harass do definitely -require- mechanics, and are separate skills from your standard macro. I also believe that incorporating high APM tasks like these into your game (while continuing to focus on macro) is one of the most important ways you can train in SC2.
Protoss players, how many of you have tried to probe harass and scout really well when you're not used to it? Not only does it require a large amount of APM to accomplish while not missing any macro actions, you will find your probe dies because you spent too much time doing something in your base. PAY ATTENTION when that happens! You just found something you can improve in your macro game, because optimally nothing you do in your base should require more than a second without you having time to go look at your scout.
For me, a huge issue was when I picked up a new hotkey layout, after practice I was very swift with the basic, common commands (build pylon, build gateway) but infrequent/once a game tech items like templar archives would make me pause a second because the hand positions weren't commited to muscle memory.
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On October 20 2012 04:48 JaKaTaK wrote:EDIT: Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 07:20 Mar_1910 wrote:1 question How to pass to next levels? I think I am doing everything corectly, but I pass to next level (1 lvl) when I ... left the game So sorry I missed your question. You move on to the next level when you have fulfilled the benchmarks for your goal league 3 games in a row. (should be in "TheLevels" video)
Thank You, but maybe I dont understand English, but how can I correctly go to next level.
I think I am doing everything fine but I dont goto next level.
I video there are some explanation, but maybe I need somebody that will show 10min game "how to go to next level".
I am spending resources
No supply block
Mule call down after every 50.
Using 2 control group for building (CC-barrakcs)
2 for army (1 for scout, 2nd for army) - dont need to many with only marines
Using 4 cameras (1 main, expand, 3rd and rally point)
What am i doing wrong?
EDIT:
after some more games:
I played 3 games on 1 level, after reaching 200/200 supply i left the game.
I had 3 consistency games and i have to say that I started to use more cameras
What is still bothering me is Your's(my ) goals. How can I figureout that I got these goals?
The only progress that I see is "consistency progress", but when i just leave the game in any time, even at beginning "I got the consistency". Where are the progress in goals?
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Probably i found the problem, on EU i have only version 0.9. How can I download v 4.3?
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@Mar
download??? Are you talking about the custom map? That is not ready yet, I'm sorry. You should be following the benchmarks on the spreadsheet and playing games with friends, vs AI, or on the ladder.
We'll have the custom map ready as soon as we can, but it may be a while.
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OK, so that map makes me think that there is a custom map for that.
On EU server it is called: Daybreak LE (TheLevels Mod) v0.9 by Mox with description that it is based on Your's TheLevels.
Sorry, but that map got me wrong.
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On October 21 2012 03:47 Mar_1910 wrote:
OK, so that map makes me think that there is a custom map for that.
On EU server it is called: Daybreak LE (TheLevels Mod) v0.9 by Mox with description that it is based on Your's TheLevels.
Sorry, but that map got me wrong.
The map is correct, but it's likely out of date. We'll announce when a complete and accurate version is out.
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I love the evo/spore at level 1. Once I noticed it changed, I graduated to lvl2 in the next 3 games! I'm a ways away, but I assume Lair is unlocked at lvl 10 with the overseer? I'm trying to stick to this as strictly as possible but I'd love roach upgrades and +2 ups at lvl2...
I think I've seen this asked but not answered, but could you clarify the micro/multitask levels? Seems to me they're the same as the macro, but focused more on playing with the units than strictly macro?
Also, I noticed there have been several updates(now v4.3.1) since this thread was created. Could you post somewhere (maybe another worksheet in the file?) some sort of changelog? I'd be interested to see the evolution of this method!
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On October 23 2012 10:22 S_treaks wrote:
I love the evo/spore at level 1. Once I noticed it changed, I graduated to lvl2 in the next 3 games! I'm a ways away, but I assume Lair is unlocked at lvl 10 with the overseer? I'm trying to stick to this as strictly as possible but I'd love roach upgrades and +2 ups at lvl2...
I think I've seen this asked but not answered, but could you clarify the micro/multitask levels? Seems to me they're the same as the macro, but focused more on playing with the units than strictly macro?
Also, I noticed there have been several updates(now v4.3.1) since this thread was created. Could you post somewhere (maybe another worksheet in the file?) some sort of changelog? I'd be interested to see the evolution of this method!
It would take a lot of time to make a changelog for TheLevels, but its on my list.
All upgrades (including upgrades to buildings like orbital command and lair) are available as soon as you have the means to get them. So a Lair requires a spawning pool and gas, so as soon as you have the extrator and the spawning pool, you may get a Lair :D
Enjoy your roach upgrades and 2/2 :D
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On October 24 2012 00:36 JaKaTaK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 10:22 S_treaks wrote:
I love the evo/spore at level 1. Once I noticed it changed, I graduated to lvl2 in the next 3 games! I'm a ways away, but I assume Lair is unlocked at lvl 10 with the overseer? I'm trying to stick to this as strictly as possible but I'd love roach upgrades and +2 ups at lvl2...
I think I've seen this asked but not answered, but could you clarify the micro/multitask levels? Seems to me they're the same as the macro, but focused more on playing with the units than strictly macro?
Also, I noticed there have been several updates(now v4.3.1) since this thread was created. Could you post somewhere (maybe another worksheet in the file?) some sort of changelog? I'd be interested to see the evolution of this method! It would take a lot of time to make a changelog for TheLevels, but its on my list. All upgrades (including upgrades to buildings like orbital command and lair) are available as soon as you have the means to get them. So a Lair requires a spawning pool and gas, so as soon as you have the extrator and the spawning pool, you may get a Lair :D Enjoy your roach upgrades and 2/2 :D
Ahhh, I suppose Lair IS an upgrade and not a structure. Awesome!
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Why were the min SQs changed? 100 SQ for pro was pretty good imo. Same with SB being bumped up one on pro. It's supposed to be a challenge in which you eventually succeed three times in a row, so harder is better.
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Also, seems like allowable # of supply blocks for a pro should be 0. =)
-Cross
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On October 26 2012 06:57 Crosswind wrote:
Also, seems like allowable # of supply blocks for a pro should be 0. =)
-Cross
That's what I said... ._.
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changed back to 0 supply blocks. I agree.
Concerning the SQ, almost no one is getting 100 3 times in a row. 95 is much more reasonable. I feel like 100 may be the area of diminishing returns.
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EPT
