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[G] TheStaircase - An Alternative Improvement Method - Pag…

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10139 Posts
October 27 2016 20:47 GMT
#1521
On October 27 2016 08:36 JaKaTaKSc2 wrote:
Hey hey Jealous,

This system is 100% not about getting into masters/gm. It's about helping with the steep learning curve in the Bronze-Plat area, teaching fundamental macro mechanics through exploration instead of dictation.

I see, thanks ^^ Thought I read that in the OP somewhere (Masters/GM being mentioned).
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
October 28 2016 14:13 GMT
#1522
It can be easy to confuse. Masters and GM can be goals. The metrics are compared to players in other leagues, so you can choose to have the spending skill of a GM player by the end of the program, but would then of course need to start learning the other skills involved (macro is important, but only part of a player's skill).
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Sheridan
Profile Joined October 2016
60 Posts
October 28 2016 15:50 GMT
#1523
wish we had something like this for BW
telfire
Profile Joined May 2010
United States415 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-02 03:01:05
November 02 2016 02:50 GMT
#1524
(So sorry I had multiple tabs open and posted in the wrong topic mods feel free to delete this)
NeoBlade
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Germany262 Posts
November 11 2016 13:23 GMT
#1525
I worked on the Google-Spreadsheet:

Google-Spreadsheet revamped

There are not many changes, but I still made some suggestions. E. g. do not use 4 out of 5 games, use 9 out of 10. You can ignore them if you like.

I made a new map, too. "Creep or die" is now ready (Arcade) to be played with LOTV.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Multitask:_Creep_or_Die

Try to avoid Nukes:

[image loading]

Be prepared for CloakedBanshees:

[image loading]

http://youtube.com/NeoBladeSC2
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-11 17:16:53
November 11 2016 17:09 GMT
#1526
Really cool stuff, NeoBlade :D

Where did you get the info for TSC? Does ggtracker give out averages for that stat?

Also! There is a %creep spread metric in ggtracker already. When tracking creep spread skill, why not use that?

Also, Also! Thanks for taking the care to write in a credit line <3
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
NeoBlade
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Germany262 Posts
November 11 2016 18:55 GMT
#1527
TSC, used to do it, but it's broken. But you can see it within SC2.

I don't think it's too much work, to take a look at it after the game.

I added "%creep spread metric" again.

Should I give you Write-Access?

Could you add the revamped to the main thread?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/374400-thestaircase-an-alternative-improvement-method

@Jak: Keep up the good work!
http://youtube.com/NeoBladeSC2
bobo38
Profile Joined February 2016
France220 Posts
November 12 2016 18:47 GMT
#1528
It seems that roaches and stalkers have been added to the given units in the official TheStaircase googlesheet. Could we have more comments about that please ?
Check out TheCore Lite last release:
https://github.com/bobo38/TheCoreLite/releases
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-15 14:50:23
November 15 2016 14:47 GMT
#1529
@bobo
The idea is, everyone gets a ranged unit. Having a ranged unit early will lead to more early wins without sacrificing a significant amount of learning efficiency. So, the player should be more motivated. That's the idea in any case. Agree/disagree?

@neo
I'd add it to the OP, but I don't agree with all of the decisions made. Hopefully I'll get a chance to go over everything at one point so we can reconcile disagreements and create a better method.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
bobo38
Profile Joined February 2016
France220 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-15 20:25:51
November 15 2016 17:52 GMT
#1530
@JaK, understood your approach

On another hand, Protoss + stalker and Zerg + Roach could be seen as TheStaircase step number 4. When I applied the approach, step 3 was valuable to learn:
– how much gaz is needed for basic tech + upgrades
– what is the benefit of teching, even with basic units
– micro changes due to additional ability, better speed
– what is missing with the (reduced) set given units => which helps to choose an additional unit at step 4, for gaz dump, now that you're used to mineral dump

Terran step 3 is complete and natural: marine + hellbats is a strong tank+ranged composition. Protoss mass zealot is limited, but with TheStaircase one is forced to experiment warp prism and get better mothershipcore control (I even learnt to warp-in with TheStaircase :D )

Zerg is really hard, due to zerg mechanics, hatching so many zergling is insane. It's not even a good training for inject, you need too many hatcheries (backspace method would be a must, when TheCore inject with 5-6 hatcheries won't be enough). Making queens for offensive purpose could be an option. Maybe Nydus Worms, but the number of zerglings to transport is too high. Or creep spread with moving lines of static defences. None of those options being realistic in ladder conditions.

my 2 cents
Check out TheCore Lite last release:
https://github.com/bobo38/TheCoreLite/releases
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
November 18 2016 17:45 GMT
#1531
Interesting stuff, will look at making some revisions.

Concerning Zerg,
No need for backspace at all. Just take a macro hatch sooner and/or take more macro hatches (uses one camera).
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
NeoBlade
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Germany262 Posts
November 23 2016 14:39 GMT
#1532
– how much gaz is needed for basic tech + upgrades
– what is the benefit of teching, even with basic units
– micro changes due to additional ability, better speed


Totally agree with Bobo. I train TheStaircase from Bronze to Diamond for some years now. If I could change one thing:

Give them one Gas in #2. "Given units only" (Marines, Lings, Zealots).

Benefit: WarpGate for Protoss, Stim/ComS for Terran, LingSpeed for Zerg
... and Upgrades up to 3/3.

It also would allow Observers and Overseer.

I would strongly recommend NOT to use WarpPrism and OverDroppers, because the Micro for RunBys and "Scout the front" is IMHO hard enough.

@Bobo: What is your opinion on this suggestion?
http://youtube.com/NeoBladeSC2
bobo38
Profile Joined February 2016
France220 Posts
November 23 2016 19:23 GMT
#1533
@NeoBlade: thanks for your videos, I found them one year back searching for TheStaircase step 3 training ressources :D

Of course it could make sense to allow those aspects from step 2, to get to micro in real conditions for those units. It's definitely helpful in the context of your coaching approach.

On the other hand the current "you may not mine gaz" rule sounds clear and allows some contrast between steps 2 and 3. I'm remembering defeating Elite AI with Terran/Protoss step 2 mineral only cheese; it was so exciting ! Those steps for the lonely TheStaircaser is really important.

I think that a checklist of things to learn could help, kind of steps in the steps… maybe it's not suitable as TheStaircaise spirit is to reduce the possibilities to force exploration/experimentation (and fun)
Check out TheCore Lite last release:
https://github.com/bobo38/TheCoreLite/releases
NeoBlade
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Germany262 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-05 12:28:36
February 05 2017 12:24 GMT
#1534
I updated my GoogleXLS, regarding Medivacs and the new maps.

http://bit.ly/2kvhPa5

This is a new TheStaircase-Video for Terran #1 (Step 1). Updated for LOTV, giving additional tips for new players.



All other races will be covered as well.

I strongly recommend you watch Jak's videos first:

Terran #1: http://y2u.be/71mbIkOBRNk
Terran #2: http://y2u.be/_G5xiQvn3Go

Hotkeys (Apollo): http://y2u.be/BvoainJ_U_c
Hotkeys (Jak): http://y2u.be/mtMxNmlFCn8
Using Cameras (Apollo): http://y2u.be/Q_VRcrtor-8
Using Cameras (Jak): http://y2u.be/u3sgjRtF-3E

Terran-Supply-Trick: http://y2u.be/xjimzUQZwIQ
http://youtube.com/NeoBladeSC2
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
February 12 2017 01:52 GMT
#1535
"Do not bitch about cheese and all-ins. Train."

<3
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
bobo38
Profile Joined February 2016
France220 Posts
February 12 2017 08:21 GMT
#1536
Interesting video! I'm not able to find the "neoai" mod from custom games, is it expected?
Check out TheCore Lite last release:
https://github.com/bobo38/TheCoreLite/releases
NeoBlade
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Germany262 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-19 15:50:07
March 19 2017 12:50 GMT
#1537
New video regarding TheStaircase. Though some aspects are different, about 90% are the same as in Jak's guide.

Guide / HowTo (GoogleSpreadsheat, docs.google.com)



SQ = Spending Quotient

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Spending_quotient

Some new ideas

Idea A: Choose GM-Spending-Skill (SQin Step #1 and #2. Without gas reaching SQ 90+ is not that hard. Though it might take 10 to 30 games, training Basic Mechanics (Video) is really, really IMPORTANT.
In Step #3 you choose a new League Goal. E.g. Gold and SQ = 45. For Gold you could choose 40 or 50 SQ as well.
If you don't like this approach, just play 4 out of 5 games.

Idea B: If you start with Step #3 just build one Gas for 5 games (or 10). Reason: Your SQ will drop, when you take Gas for the first time. Players, who take 4 Gas or more will often times accumulate more than 1.000 Gas, and their SQ will drop 10 or 20 points.
E.g. in Step #3 you choose 80 SQ. If you have 90 SQ or more in #1 & #2, you can drop 10 points in #3.

Idea C: One of the major advantages about TheStaircase: You can play as you like. You do not have to grind a specific BO (Build Order) vs AI and then you can start 1on1 ladder. You can jump into the ladder right away and choose whichever BO you like. BUT ... but playing a solid BO is really important in SC2, so try to play a ProGamer-BO for the first 30 supply and hit the Timings and Benchmarks.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Timings_and_Benchmarks

Idea D: Use a Cheese-BO (12Pool, Proxy-Rax/Gates) in 25% of the games. If you dislike Cheese, play it only 10% of the games. Goal: Cheese will train your Multitasking.
IMHO TheStaircase is about training Macro & Mechanics, but it is not about Macro every game. IMHO a solid Macro-BO is very important, but Multitasking is important as well.
http://youtube.com/NeoBladeSC2
NeoBlade
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Germany262 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-03-19 15:55:37
March 19 2017 15:52 GMT
#1538
I'm not able to find the "neoai" mod from custom games, is it expected?

It is a Blizzard-Bug. Sometimes I do not find my own Maps. I re-published some of them and still could not find them. A few days later it works.

This video is in German, but you can see most ppl are able to find the NeoAI-Mod:



His UI is English, so you should be able to reproduce his steps.
http://youtube.com/NeoBladeSC2
zerge
Profile Joined December 2012
Germany162 Posts
March 21 2017 01:50 GMT
#1539
Could you please explain again why the spending skill in the neoai mod is inflated and if there is a way to convert it towards the SQ that is used in ggtracker.
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
March 21 2017 15:14 GMT
#1540
Just a heads up, spending skill and spending quotient (or SQ) are 2 different metrics. Spending Skill is the badge you see on ggtracker.com. It shows you your SQ in context of the game length and relates that to the performance of players at all leagues to show a league badge.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
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