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On August 20 2012 06:21 art0 wrote:
Am i the only One to notice that it was really the seeker missiles that made the difference in the end game battles? MVP landed some sick heat seekers which anhiliated the broodlords before they did any damage. TvZ isn't so muh about a specific build but how u trade as cost efficiently with the inevitable broodlords.
MVP does not use any Ravens with this build.
Basically MVP brought two TvZ builds to this tournament.
The first was this mech build, which he used on smaller maps like Ohana and Cloud Kingdom.
The second was a standard double ebay MMMTV early and mid game, but transitioning into nonstandard PF+Viking+Raven+BC in the lategame. Which he used on larger maps like Antiga, Metropolis, Atlantis Spaceship, and Daybreak. Although he didn't always get to to the Sky Terran part depending upon how agressive the Zerg played. This is probably where you're thinking about the seeker missiles.
MVP did mix in some 2 Rax Bunker rush cheese. And one game he did a fast BFH drop into mech. But something like 90% of his TvZ games was one of the two above builds.
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Not sure if it is map dependant, TheStC did it on his stream on entombed valley cross po, basically the same thing, lots of hellion and banshee, early third and double upgrades.
He did not need any raven to kill the zerg though.
Maybe MVP has his own build but that mechplay is not brand new, that i can tell.
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Yeah. I've noticed this as welll, He is really making good use of banshees, and ravaging Mineral lines
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Wouldn't this still be weak against roach drops?
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On August 20 2012 09:46 peragon wrote:
Wouldn't this still be weak against roach drops?
I think is too risky to go for roach drop whe you have hellions running by the map trying to roast your drones, i mean, if you go for it you'll be 100% out of position to defend your bases. Unless you're willing to put some serious money on spine crawlers and queens.
I wonder if marauders would do as good of a job as banshees do...
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Am I mistaken or is this simply 1 Rax Expand into Reactor Hellion + Banshee, into third base, into add 2 more factories and 2 more armories?
This isn't anything new, why did Engine pick now to comment on this if it's so interesting? He's a GSL caster right? Did he not watch/remember Gumiho doing this way back vs Nestea in a WCG qualifier? (And that may not have been the first time we saw it in a tournament)
I've been doing this for pretty much every single TvZ (though I prefer to reactor hellion expand since it's safer, as I win almost all my TvZ's and so I do that just to lessen the chance of losing to a cheese/rush, and usually instead of getting a third, I go up to 3 factories + 1 armory then a third, but back then I used to take a fast third before adding 2 more factories and the double armories), and I will say that yes, having 4-5+ banshees is definitely very strong, if he tries to bust you, you could potentially stutter step your banshees to kill his roaches all the way to your base. Then, he will have to kill the wall there, which might even have a bunker and/or SCVs repairing, before he can kill the hellions, the finally get to the thors. Basically it's really safe as terran. If he tries to bust you with banelings, all you need to do is scout that he is doing it and/or see the area around your base so that you can snipe down many banelings before they touch your wall.
On August 20 2012 05:16 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 02:59 lastshadow wrote:
I honestly have no idea why this needed analysis, this was nothing special about what he was doing, and any good Terran knows banshee's are a core to mech TvZ. It's pretty silly cause he reiterates the same thing a few times in his "analysis". And his analysis is even wrong, because he can't even begin to fathom the complexity of banshee usage (albeit it is correct to use them the way MVP showcased), but to talk about it in such a simplistic manner is doing the complexity of it, a true disservice.
He didn't do anything fancy or special, he simply played better with mech, perhaps people just aren't used to seeing it a lot in "big" games, but MKP did this for a long time, why not hail him? You shouldn't be allowed to indirectly criticize a player who wins major tournaments when you bailed out on your commitment. The simple fact that you described yourself as a good terran is an heresy to me. But since I'm all for forgiveness and fluffy ponies maybe you can reiterate the explanation you did on your vlog so that people can see the intricacies of such a play - the least you could do would be to link to it. You know so that you can prove to yourself that you aren't just a bitter person (which is what you looks like after that post)
Um, what? So, playing as a high level player and then quitting is worse than a non-progamer criticizing MVP?
Also you didn't even read LS's post right, he wasn't criticizing MVP, he was criticizing Engine's critique.
You don't think that LS, on a progamer level, is a good terran? You don't think he has a better opinion than almost all SC2 players? How good do you have to be to be considered a "good" terran? Maybe you mean good as in compared to the top players, but you can't ignore the meaning of "good terran" relative to all SC2 players by assuming he means "one of the best terrans" and attacking him for that.
Anyways, not that LS even called himself a good player.
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On August 20 2012 03:06 lastshadow wrote:
I spoke about how koreans do this in practice 24/7? My vLogs from [6] months ago talk about it heavily and state it is a core of true mech play. I spent 40minutes speaking about banshee's and their gross effect on controlling zerg and how important they are to mech.
vLog#18 is the vLog im talking about.
Omg we should all hail lastshadow trolololol
The unique thing that I saw was that he would make 2 banshees but then stop for a bit unless he saw roaches. He would then come back and go up to 5 (no less no more) when hive tech was coming out. This saved him gas for upgrades and other stuff earlier as opposed to the terrans that make like 5-6 banshees at the beginning nonstop. You notice the difference when he has 3-3 thors fighting against the first wave of broodlords.
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On August 20 2012 10:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Am I mistaken or is this simply 1 Rax Expand into Reactor Hellion + Banshee, into third base, into add 2 more factories and 2 more armories?
This isn't anything new, why did Engine pick now to comment on this if it's so interesting? He's a GSL caster right? Did he not watch/remember Gumiho doing this way back vs Nestea in a WCG qualifier? (And that may not have been the first time we saw it in a tournament)
Whats new is the way that MVP integrates Cloak Banshees at a unique timing between Lair and Hive, and the continual production of Banshees beyond the normal 1-4. Normally with double armory mech the Terran will be powerless to prevent the Zerg from taking four bases really quickly and getting Infestor+BL ridiculously early
With MVP's Banshee integration, the Cloak Banshees hit at a very key timing between Lair and Hive that denies the fourth base at the cost of very little research time on the Armories. It also allows MVP to get away with just one Reactor Factory for harass instead of needing 2. The extra minerals are then freed up for macro orbitals, which synergies very well with double armory factory units.
The early Banshees delays Factory production in the early game, but the biggest Hatch tech threats (Roach, Bane, Ling) are easily covered by Banshees. Mutas are deflected by favoring Thors over Tanks, and Infestors are not a threat because by the time they get Pathogen Glands and cross map siege tech is well finished.
All that leaves is Hive tech, which is dealt with by double up Thors. The early starport also allows the Terran to clear out OLs with Vikings in the early game, which shuts down Roach drops and Nydus plays in the mid-late game.
My best guess for the weakness of this build would be a Roach/Muta timing that hits when the Terran is still on Thor/Hellion/Banshee and doesn't have any Tanks yet.
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How does this fare against 2 base mass muta? (with good simcity)
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On August 20 2012 11:38 sluggaslamoo wrote:
How does this fare against 2 base mass muta?
It would blind counter it.
But 2 base Muta is so bad against the standard 1 Rax FE into double ebay 4 Rax MMMTV that no Zerg in their right mind would risk doing it.
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On August 20 2012 11:42 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 11:38 sluggaslamoo wrote:
How does this fare against 2 base mass muta? It would blind counter it. But 2 base Muta is so bad against the standard 1 Rax FE into double ebay 4 Rax MMMTV that no Zerg in their right mind would risk doing it.
Ok thanks for the info.
So you don't think that you could do a reactionary mineral/gas bank into 2/3 base muta?
For example see factory reactor/starport techlab with overlord, get lair and defend with minimal units (roaches/queens/spores/etc), bank until spire and then bust out with mass muta?
You might not kill the Terran, but I feel like the 3rd denial, plus massive map control would allow you to drone hard and with better tech to boot.
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With 2 base muta you won't be able to deny the terran of his third easily. It would first of all be somewhat hard to know for sure what the terran is doing: is he taking a fast third before adding 2 more factories, or is he getting to 3 facts then adding a CC? If you happen to go 3 fact and he gets mutas ~11 minutes, you can move out with 4 thors (given you didn't lose too many hellions/banshees and/or you did a decent amount of dmg to the zerg with the hellion/banshee harass), and basically auto-win. If you send in 1-2 ovies to scout his base out, what if he isn't going into mech, but instead bio (and thus, has more than 1-2 marines)? You might lose those ovie(s). Of course, he can still get scouting info, but even if he's banking on you taking a fast third and going mech, and that is what you're doing, you should still be able to get an ebay + turrets up in time.
If he goes 2 base muta and you're getting a fast third, you won't have many thors out if at all (though, if you harass/scout well with your banshees, you should know his gas/lair/spire timing, and be able to adapt if you see mutas), and you may need an ebay, but you'll still be able to get 3 base vs his 2 (or at least, get 3 OCs ready).
If he rushes mutas earlier at like ~9, that could kill you if you didn't scout it, but with your banshees poking around it should be easy to see if he has 4 gas going up or not.
One reason why I've been using 3 factory before third more than 3rd into 2 more fact into double armory is because with the latter, I feel like I'm too passive. At least in lower than pro-level, the first option seems better (especially on ladder), because most zergs in my experience will get ~11 min mutas, and auto-lose. If you get the third base first, you can't punish zergs and get an auto-win like you can with the 3 fact into 3rd. Getting a 3rd first can help me get to the lategame, where mech can show its strength better, but I find it hard to keep enough pressure on the zerg to keep a lead (or get greedy enough without being too skimpy on defense) instead of just evening out in the lategame.
If someone can answer, does MVP usually find ways to pressure even after taking his third? Or does he more just take map control and defend his 3 bases, and not necessarily keep killing drones?
Normally with double armory mech the Terran will be powerless to prevent the Zerg from taking four bases really quickly and getting Infestor+BL ridiculously early
You can prevent a zerg from taking a really really quick fourth, but I don't think there is much you can do from stopping the situation from getting to 4 to 3 base, even though you may have gotten a faster third OC up? Especially on a map like cloud kingdom, he doesn't have to spread his creep far, and he can just reuse overseers/queens/spores from earlier to stop banshees from sniping the hatch. But if anyone has any tips, i'd like to know :D
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On August 20 2012 13:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:With 2 base muta you won't be able to deny the terran of his third easily. It would first of all be somewhat hard to know for sure what the terran is doing: is he taking a fast third before adding 2 more factories, or is he getting to 3 facts then adding a CC? If you happen to go 3 fact and he gets mutas ~11 minutes, you can move out with 4 thors (given you didn't lose too many hellions/banshees and/or you did a decent amount of dmg to the zerg with the hellion/banshee harass), and basically auto-win. If you send in 1-2 ovies to scout his base out, what if he isn't going into mech, but instead bio (and thus, has more than 1-2 marines)? You might lose those ovie(s). Of course, he can still get scouting info, but even if he's banking on you taking a fast third and going mech, and that is what you're doing, you should still be able to get an ebay + turrets up in time. If he goes 2 base muta and you're getting a fast third, you won't have many thors out if at all (though, if you harass/scout well with your banshees, you should know his gas/lair/spire timing, and be able to adapt if you see mutas), and you may need an ebay, but you'll still be able to get 3 base vs his 2 (or at least, get 3 OCs ready). If he rushes mutas earlier at like ~9, that could kill you if you didn't scout it, but with your banshees poking around it should be easy to see if he has 4 gas going up or not. One reason why I've been using 3 factory before third more than 3rd into 2 more fact into double armory is because with the latter, I feel like I'm too passive. At least in lower than pro-level, the first option seems better (especially on ladder), because most zergs in my experience will get ~11 min mutas, and auto-lose. If you get the third base first, you can't punish zergs and get an auto-win like you can with the 3 fact into 3rd. Getting a 3rd first can help me get to the lategame, where mech can show its strength better, but I find it hard to keep enough pressure on the zerg to keep a lead (or get greedy enough without being too skimpy on defense) instead of just evening out in the lategame. If someone can answer, does MVP usually find ways to pressure even after taking his third? Or does he more just take map control and defend his 3 bases, and not necessarily keep killing drones? Show nested quote +Normally with double armory mech the Terran will be powerless to prevent the Zerg from taking four bases really quickly and getting Infestor+BL ridiculously early You can prevent a zerg from taking a really really quick fourth, but I don't think there is much you can do from stopping the situation from getting to 4 to 3 base, even though you may have gotten a faster third OC up? Especially on a map like cloud kingdom, he doesn't have to spread his creep far, and he can just reuse overseers/queens/spores from earlier to stop banshees from sniping the hatch. But if anyone has any tips, i'd like to know :D
Ok thanks for the in-depth info
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Some people need to stop pretending valid points aren't valid just because they have some grudge against the person who states them. What Last Shadow said is entirely correct: This idea is nothing New, top players have understood the importance of Banshee's in Mech for ages. Sure, it might be new to see this style dominating in tournament setting, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been around for a long time. People should listen to logic rather then assuming people like LastShadow are wrong just because they personally don't like his personality.
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On August 20 2012 13:43 Krystal wrote:
Some people need to stop pretending valid points aren't valid just because they have some grudge against the person who states them. What Last Shadow said is entirely correct: This idea is nothing New, top players have understood the importance of Banshee's in Mech for ages. Sure, it might be new to see this style dominating in tournament setting, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been around for a long time. People should listen to logic rather then assuming people like LastShadow are wrong just because they personally don't like his personality.
Agreed :D MVP certainly is not the only player to have made more than 1-4 banshees, nor continually make them throughout the game. Experienced mechers should understand how well the banshee synergizes with mech. Maybe Engine just wanted to post on MVP's play since he decided now that he would like to help popularize mech play or didn't think of it in the past. But if he's doing it because he feels that MVP actually has a distinctive style...? Well, if the latter is his purpose, either he has missed all the other people doing such build(s), or he needs to comment on much more specific things on exactly how MVP's style of Hellion/banshee-into-third-into-2-more-fact-into-double-armory is both unique and superior to others who have used the same build in the past.
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I don't know if this build is new or not but Mvp's hellion harrass is sick. He roasted atleast 40+ drones every game he used this strat.
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And his analysis is even wrong
if you havent heard Engine's in depth analysis of other games
i strongly suggest that you do so. this guy is a much better than you are when it comes to analysing builds.
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On August 20 2012 14:27 mongmong wrote:if you havent heard Engine's in depth analysis of other games i strongly suggest that you do so. this guy is a much better than you are when it comes to analysing builds.
what? he could be the best analyzer in the entire world for all I care. He can still be wrong. Coming from a player who has had experience with the build in pro level play for over 6 months, i'm far more likely to place my trust in LastShadow than Engine.
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On August 20 2012 13:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 13:43 Krystal wrote:
Some people need to stop pretending valid points aren't valid just because they have some grudge against the person who states them. What Last Shadow said is entirely correct: This idea is nothing New, top players have understood the importance of Banshee's in Mech for ages. Sure, it might be new to see this style dominating in tournament setting, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been around for a long time. People should listen to logic rather then assuming people like LastShadow are wrong just because they personally don't like his personality.
Agreed :D MVP certainly is not the only player to have made more than 1-4 banshees, nor continually make them throughout the game. Experienced mechers should understand how well the banshee synergizes with mech. Maybe Engine just wanted to post on MVP's play since he decided now that he would like to help popularize mech play or didn't think of it in the past. But if he's doing it because he feels that MVP actually has a distinctive style...? Well, if the latter is his purpose, either he has missed all the other people doing such build(s), or he needs to comment on much more specific things on exactly how MVP's style of Hellion/banshee-into-third-into-2-more-fact-into-double-armory is both unique and superior to others who have used the same build in the past.
MVP first did this build around 2 months ago and Engine said he wanted to cast it then but I think it was on OSL so he didn't get the chance. Then MVP never used the build when Engine was casting his games, so he got fed up of waiting for his chance and just took to Twitter 2 months later.
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EPT
