EPTMVP is investing a'lot early on to maximize his damage.. he only starts making units that are really apart of his core composition around the 11-12 minute mark ( where thors + tanks start ) So the entire premise is really based around doing a shit ton of damage... this will be really hard to accomplish once zergs recognize the build and prepare. So i highly suggest you guys not to over-look the subtle things that made this build good like the meta-game, current zerg trends and what not... I really don't think mvp would even feel comfortable going in with this build in a league.. unless he just wanted to throw it in 1 game to mix the zerg up. I can't see this ever being a solid opening with it having nearly complete reliance on your ability to kill drones in the early stages.
IEM LG-IMMVP TvZ Mech Build - Page 4
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VPCursed
1044 Posts
MVP is investing a'lot early on to maximize his damage.. he only starts making units that are really apart of his core composition around the 11-12 minute mark ( where thors + tanks start ) So the entire premise is really based around doing a shit ton of damage... this will be really hard to accomplish once zergs recognize the build and prepare. So i highly suggest you guys not to over-look the subtle things that made this build good like the meta-game, current zerg trends and what not... I really don't think mvp would even feel comfortable going in with this build in a league.. unless he just wanted to throw it in 1 game to mix the zerg up. I can't see this ever being a solid opening with it having nearly complete reliance on your ability to kill drones in the early stages. | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On August 21 2012 02:01 VPCursed wrote: I think alot of people are miss-understanding the build. If you watch the games where mvp does this opener he ends up doing a'lot of damage very early on and it is one of the only ways really for mech to work in this MU at the moment. If damage isn't done early, you can never get a proper composition to hit a timing and damage the opponent before broods or keep them from mass expanding. If the zerg prepares and defends properly they will end up ahead against this opener by just taking more expansions and using roach play to tech, it is far from impossible for zerg to defend against a'lot of banshees and hellions while taking a 4th.. MVP is investing a'lot early on to maximize his damage.. he only starts making units that are really apart of his core composition around the 11-12 minute mark ( where thors + tanks start ) So the entire premise is really based around doing a shit ton of damage... this will be really hard to accomplish once zergs recognize the build and prepare. So i highly suggest you guys not to over-look the subtle things that made this build good like the meta-game, current zerg trends and what not... I really don't think mvp would even feel comfortable going in with this build in a league.. unless he just wanted to throw it in 1 game to mix the zerg up. I can't see this ever being a solid opening with it having nearly complete reliance on your ability to kill drones in the early stages. This argument comes up in nearly every Mech thread. Yes, when Meching vs Zerg an important aspect is harassment. MVP's opening puts a good commitment into harassment, but also gives him Banshees for utility outside of harassment. That doesn't mean Mech, or this opening in particular, is somehow less solid than any other style. A lot of styles "depend" on doing some decent harassment in the game. A Zerg going Muta/Ling/Bling vs Protoss, who does 0 damage, is 9/10 times going to fail. A Bio Terran (MKP or Gumiho Style) who does 0 damage with Drops and such is also in a lot of trouble. Does that mean those styles aren't solid or can't be used repeatedly? Obviously not. MVP manages to do damage to Zergs who go fast Mutas or get Roaches. He even manages to do damage to NesTea when he goes Roaches AND Spire tech. Defending from Hellions and Banshees comes down to micro, you can't "counter" it with any sort of opening. There is a game that goes against everything you have said: MVP vs Vortixx on Ohana. By the 13 minute mark MVP has only killed 15 more workers than Vortixx, and has traded over 12 Hellions to do that damage. Both players could have done more damage and prevented more damage with better multitask and micro, because that's what playing this build and defending it come down to. Not having some special build order to counter it. And your notion that this build relies on being able to hit a timing before Brood Lords or denying the Zerg from taking all of his bases is proven wrong in this game as well. Vortixx hits MVP with Brood Lords right as he takes his 4th base, MVP has done no push to weaken Vortixx before this. Vortixx has all of his 5 bases, and MVP continues to repel Brood Lord attacks while counter-attacking with Hellions, and wins through sheer cost-effectiveness. At this stage too, neither of these players micro is perfect. MVP loses groups of Hellions for 0 damage, moves out with his Mech army a bit early and loses quite a few Mech units, and loses 5 Ravens (with HSM upgraded already) simply due to poor control in a fight. Vortixx clumps his Air units up on occasion, and doesn't defend every Hellion runby without taking some Drone losses. So no, I don't think this build has some sort of build order counter. Like any other style in any other matchup, it's effectiveness comes down to your micro and unit control (and your opponents lack thereof). | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4517 Posts
On August 21 2012 04:46 ZjiublingZ wrote: There is a game that goes against everything you have said: MVP vs Vortixx on Ohana. By the 13 minute mark MVP has only killed 15 more workers than Vortixx, and has traded over 12 Hellions to do that damage. Both players could have done more damage and prevented more damage with better multitask and micro, because that's what playing this build and defending it come down to. Not having some special build order to counter it. Isn't it the game on ohana where he does continuous hellion runbys and gets 85+ drone kills because vortix refuses to build any spines? | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On August 21 2012 06:14 Laurens wrote: Isn't it the game on ohana where he does continuous hellion runbys and gets 85+ drone kills because vortix refuses to build any spines? If by "refuses" you mean "can't afford to", then yes. Vortixx was starved for minerals almost the entire game, and Spine Crawlers don't stop the 6 Hellion runby's of MVP from doing any damage, they just limit it. Walling off the left most ramp would be way better than putting down Spine Crawlers. Almost every single game at IEM MVP does great damage with Hellions even against equal micro/multi task opponents like Violet. You can't stop all damage from Hellions when your opponent is sending out 6 BFH Hellions every ~90 seconds to one of 4 or 5 bases you have. Even 4 Spines isn't going to negate all that damage, and is a significant investment that you have to make as soon as you start mining, as opposed to taking that hit in economy later on. Also, Vortixx denies quite a few runby's completely with Zerglings, which he wouldn't be able to afford if he had to make 4+ Spines at ~3 bases. (also worth noting is Vortixx kills ~40 workers so it's only a 40 worker disparity, and MVP gets the last ~20ish kills when Vortixx is already quite behind). | ||
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xrapture
United States1644 Posts
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On August 21 2012 07:18 xrapture wrote: Don't know why people are saying MVP created this build. Puma is the first person to ever use it in a tournament. He used this exact a lot at a MLG a month or two ago. Probably because MVP did it so consistently, all throughout a tournament, very successfully. And then Engines post brought more attention to it. Anyways, it's time to move past the fact that MVP didn't create the build, or wasn't the first to use it in a tournament. It has been discussed to it's conclusion. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10292 Posts
On August 21 2012 01:20 Shartugal wrote: This was probably common knowledge to everybody but me, but it wasn't until this IEM I realized that if you get thors before any tanks, you'll be able to deal with mutas really well, unless it's an actual muta rush you're facing. which should be no problem to scout, since there's no way you won't notice 4 gas up with your banshees/hellions harassing On August 21 2012 00:29 vthree wrote: I think it might have to do with the fact the MVP used this build many times during IEM and had success with it. Obviously, many of the builds that pros shows in tournaments have been tested and refined a lot in their practice and team houses. The ideas itself might not even be from themselves but something they saw on ladder and just refined it. It is similar to Stephano's 200 max roach push vs protoss. He was not the first one to show it in a pro game. But he execution and the consistent success with it was beyond the other zergs at that moment. Thus it got coined as the Stephano build. Makes sense, I guess I'll go with that :D | ||
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-niL
Canada1131 Posts
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
It surprised me how well Engine, and presumably, other Korean commentators knew the game and were willing to dive into the details. His knowledge and depth of the game reached a whole new level that I never experienced from any English commentators with the exception of Artosis. And it was this level of depth of commentary that attracted me to Starcraft in the first place. Artosis and Tasteless were and still are excellent and I would love to see other commentators work harder to understand this game at the same level. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On August 21 2012 00:55 ZjiublingZ wrote: RoboBob I talked with you about this on Reddit. He uses Ravens with this build, at least sometimes, and probably always eventually. The games he didn't were the ones he did massive damage with Hellions/Banshees and so he had a huge lead. He did not need to play defensively, he just went for a maxed out Mech push FTW. He gets a Raven in his game vs NesTea on Cloud Kingdom quite early. He also gets 4-5 of them vs Vortix on the game on Ohana. I won't pretend to know MVP's thought process for when he gets Ravens and when not, but he certainly does get them with this build. In MVP vs Nestea on Cloud Kingdom, MVP scanned Nestea's main at 12:34. He saw that the Roach Warren researching something. In this case it was Roach speed which was like 95% complete, but it could have easily been a fast Roach burrow move. So he threw down 3 turrets and built a Raven to cover his detection. This was the only game where he made that one Raven adjustment, so I think it was unique that single timing. In any case the Raven literally did nothing but die to Corruptors at the 15 minute mark, and it was never rebuilt. But you are correct about the Ravens on Ohana, thanks for pointing that out. He gets 4 Ravens with Corvid Reactor and Seeker Missile, and rebuilds them later after losing them. I'm not sure why MVP made that investment. Maybe it was the fact that the Zerg responded with Muta/Ling into Hive instead of Roach/Infestor like in most of the other game? I guess Ravens over Banshees kinda makes sense in that scenario, because Banshees aren't very good against either Muta or Ling. But then again, it seems like most of the time when the Zerg went full air like that he just massed Vikings and kited instead of bothering with Ravens. I wonder what made that game different. In any case I wasn't very impressed by the Ravens in that game. They threw down some PDDs but they didn't seem to help much because his Viking count was low all game long game long until gg. There was one seeker missile, but it only hit a single BL. In fact the AOE killed one of MVP's hellions and took another one to half health. I'd be interested in hearing other people's thoughts on that game. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On August 21 2012 07:18 xrapture wrote: Don't know why people are saying MVP created this build. Puma is the first person to ever use it in a tournament. He used this exact a lot at a MLG a month or two ago. Builds are named after the player who popularizes it, not the person who first uses it in a televised match. Builds are not inventions or scientific discoveries, they are metagame shifts. The idea of someone "owning" double armory Mech+Banshee+Viking is as silly as the idea of someone "owning" 4 Hatch Infestor/Corruptor/Broodlord. For example, the "Bisu build" back in BW did not, in fact, originate from Bisu. Its just that he made it popular by successfully toppling Savior (arguably the best bonjwa in SC history) with it in his prime. People had played Corsair/DT ever since BW release, just not to the same level of success and mastery that Bisu did. | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On August 21 2012 11:54 RoboBob wrote: In MVP vs Nestea on Cloud Kingdom, MVP scanned Nestea's main at 12:34. He saw that the Roach Warren researching something. In this case it was Roach speed which was like 95% complete, but it could have easily been a fast Roach burrow move. So he threw down 3 turrets and built a Raven to cover his detection. This was the only game where he made that one Raven adjustment, so I think it was unique that single timing. In any case the Raven literally did nothing but die to Corruptors at the 15 minute mark, and it was never rebuilt. But you are correct about the Ravens on Ohana, thanks for pointing that out. He gets 4 Ravens with Corvid Reactor and Seeker Missile, and rebuilds them later after losing them. I'm not sure why MVP made that investment. Maybe it was the fact that the Zerg responded with Muta/Ling into Hive instead of Roach/Infestor like in most of the other game? I guess Ravens over Banshees kinda makes sense in that scenario, because Banshees aren't very good against either Muta or Ling. But then again, it seems like most of the time when the Zerg went full air like that he just massed Vikings and kited instead of bothering with Ravens. I wonder what made that game different. In any case I wasn't very impressed by the Ravens in that game. They threw down some PDDs but they didn't seem to help much because his Viking count was low all game long game long until gg. There was one seeker missile, but it only hit a single BL. In fact the AOE killed one of MVP's hellions and took another one to half health. I'd be interested in hearing other people's thoughts on that game. Good pickup on the Cloud Kingdom game, I didn't catch that. For Ohana, I agree with your reasoning as to why he gets the Raven. Banshees are really a waste of gas when the opponent has Muta/Ling primarily. Also, if you'll notice, he doesn't ever add on his extra 2 Facts that he usually does once he gets 3 bases up and running. Instead he goes for double Starport with Raven's plus upgrades. I believe, and it's just a hunch, he was hard-countering Vortixx and sort of banking on him going for Brood Lords (because he starts Raven and Corvid Reactor a few seconds before he even scans for the Hive). I thought the Raven's were useful with the PDD's (it blocks Brood Lord and Queen shots too at least), and the Seeker Missiles forced some of Vortix's units to stop attacking for a moment but then he proceeded to lose all 4 of them to just poor control, and then he rallied the 5th one into the battle. They would have been very useful later on with the growing Viking count and Vortixx's constant use of Queens with his push and lack of Infestors. And that moment when MVP moves down to attack the giant clump of morphing Brood Lords could have gone so much better if he only had to move his Ravens out and not his Mech army, that moment very nearly cost him the game. And I really believe had Vortixx worked in an Ultra Tech switch he could have won. MVP wins the game with literally 1 Thor just popping out of a Factory, only air units in battle. His fact count was 3 the entire game. Had MVP kept the Ravens alive he could have saved a lot of money on Vikings and not been so vulnerable to a tech switch. | ||
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DizzySheep
Australia1144 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10292 Posts
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On August 21 2012 13:34 DizzySheep wrote: ^ i believe the part about pdd blocking brood lord shots has been patched long ago ..correct me if i'm wrong. It no longer blocks broodlings, still blocks the initial damage. | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On August 21 2012 14:01 ZjiublingZ wrote: It no longer blocks broodlings, still blocks the initial damage. it doesn't block anything since the fix months ago. . . try it on an unit test map if you aren't sure | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On August 21 2012 02:01 VPCursed wrote: I think alot of people are miss-understanding the build. If you watch the games where mvp does this opener he ends up doing a'lot of damage very early on and it is one of the only ways really for mech to work in this MU at the moment. If damage isn't done early, you can never get a proper composition to hit a timing and damage the opponent before broods or keep them from mass expanding. If the zerg prepares and defends properly they will end up ahead against this opener by just taking more expansions and using roach play to tech, it is far from impossible for zerg to defend against a'lot of banshees and hellions while taking a 4th.. MVP is investing a'lot early on to maximize his damage.. he only starts making units that are really apart of his core composition around the 11-12 minute mark ( where thors + tanks start ) So the entire premise is really based around doing a shit ton of damage... this will be really hard to accomplish once zergs recognize the build and prepare. So i highly suggest you guys not to over-look the subtle things that made this build good like the meta-game, current zerg trends and what not... I really don't think mvp would even feel comfortable going in with this build in a league.. unless he just wanted to throw it in 1 game to mix the zerg up. I can't see this ever being a solid opening with it having nearly complete reliance on your ability to kill drones in the early stages. That's sort of true and it's not. If you're going CC first with a well timed 3rd then the amount of damage you have to do depends on two factors, how fast the Zerg is droning and how much you want to invest into harassment. If you cut at just 6 hellions and 1 single uncloaked banshee you can secure 6 gas very quickly and start double armouries a shitload faster then if you just keep making and throwing in hellions and cloak banshees. You can pressure his front and keep his creep and queen count down, maybe even kill a few drones here and there and keep your defences up with a tiny force of units. And if the zerg is just doing a 2 base tech or timing build then you're not trying to get a lot of harassment in early isn't really your goal, you're more trying to get into midgame in a stronger position through greed and solid defence. If he goes 3 hatch before pool I like to start the 3rd CC before the factory but play very defensively (the build is way too explosive with speedlings to risk being aggressive which is frustrating). If he goes for a relatively quick 3rd after pool then... I dunno it kind of depends. | ||
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.Sic.
Korea (South)497 Posts
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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