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Hello, been a long time since I have translated articles/interviews on TL.
Korean commentator, Engine, made a very deep analysis on MVP's mech build against Zerg on his tweeter (In Korean). After reading his analysis, the build order is something very worthy of looking at.
Once IEM replays are posted, I intend to break down the build and copy it which I will update it on this post. But in the meanwhile, I have translated what Engine said on his Tweeter.
Original : https://twitter.com/Engine141
The reason why previous mechanic builds could not be the mainstream build is that they had a severe weakness to certain timings. One is when Zerg teched up to Lair and another is when Hive is done.
When Terran players continuously make Thors and Hellions, speed-up Roach drop or Nydus could end the game. But when Terran makes too many Seige Tanks, scared of roach attacks, surprise Mutalisks do lots of damage. So when Terrans try to go defensive, they can never have a lead during the game. Furthermore, going defensively can give Zerg too much time to tech to Broodlords.
But MVP's recent mechanic build improvised on that weakness. The key point is Banshees. Normally, producing only two banshee is the standard. These two Banshees can be easily dealt with Queens and while they may be annoying Zerg players can go for Ling-Roach push. However MVP produces Banshees continuously and when 4-5 Banshees are produced, their firing power can easily kill roaches and banelings. What Zerg can do against this is producing lots of lings to push, ignoring banshees. However ,MVP makes unbelievable amount of Hellions. He uses these Hellions to defend if Zerg pushes with lings, and if not, he goes for drone kills.
This means that ground attacks from Zerg is prevented. Therefore Terran can easily take 6 gas much earlier than the standard timing. Then the build delays seige tank production and rather produce lots of Thors. One disadvantage of this is Banshees are only strong around Terran's base or the centre of the map. They can't support Thors if Terran decides to push as Queens can take on Banshees and Banshees won't be able to help to kill roaches. This means that Terran also can't push out which makes the game to go for longer.
While MVP's build is great against offensive Zerg players but against defensive player, it's not that effective. So MVP tries to overcome this problem with upgrades, as Terran took 6 gas easily without threats - early upgrades from 2 armory is possible. So he saves his firing power to receive great interest from upgrades which is great against Hive units.
Broodlings stay alive longer when Terran goes for mechanic than bionic. In this case, when mechanic units have well upgraded armour, Thors stay alive so much longer and with the effect of better weapons upgrade - you can observe thors killing Broodlords and Corrupters which normally you can't see.
So his build is very well built against both offensive and defensive players without ruling out any strategies from Zerg players.
(PS. 5+ banshees can snipe infestors or make them waste infestor energy)
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nice simple but still in depth analyze by "ENgine"
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And he speaks english pretty damn well too.
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I honestly have no idea why this needed analysis, this was nothing special about what he was doing, and any good Terran knows banshee's are a core to mech TvZ. It's pretty silly cause he reiterates the same thing a few times in his "analysis". And his analysis is even wrong, because he can't even begin to fathom the complexity of banshee usage (albeit it is correct to use them the way MVP showcased), but to talk about it in such a simplistic manner is doing the complexity of it, a true disservice.
He didn't do anything fancy or special, he simply played better with mech, perhaps people just aren't used to seeing it a lot in "big" games, but MKP did this for a long time, why not hail him?
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On August 20 2012 02:59 Aunvilgod wrote:
And he speaks english pretty damn well too.
Haha : ) I've translated his Korean tweet into English : )
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On August 20 2012 02:59 lastshadow wrote:
I honestly have no idea why this needed analysis, this was nothing special about what he was doing, and any good Terran knows banshee's are a core to mech TvZ. It's pretty silly cause he reiterates the same thing a few times in his "analysis". And his analysis is even wrong, because he can't even begin to fathom the complexity of banshee usage (albeit it is correct to use them the way MVP showcased), but to talk about it in such a simplistic manner is doing the complexity of it, a true disservice.
He didn't do anything fancy or special, he simply played better with mech, perhaps people just aren't used to seeing it a lot in "big" games, but MKP did this for a long time, why not hail him?
I have no idea why you are criticizing this analysis. Please refer me to a game where a player used more than 4 banshees in a tournament. MVP didn't simply play better, his build order was different from current available mech builds AFAIK.
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I spoke about how koreans do this in practice 24/7? My vLogs from [6] months ago talk about it heavily and state it is a core of true mech play. I spent 40minutes speaking about banshee's and their gross effect on controlling zerg and how important they are to mech.
vLog#18 is the vLog im talking about.
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On August 20 2012 03:06 lastshadow wrote:
I spoke about how koreans do this in practice 24/7? My vLogs from [6] months ago talk about it heavily and state it is a core of true mech play. I spent 40minutes speaking about banshee's and their gross effect on controlling zerg and how important they are to mech.
vLog#18 is the vLog im talking about.
I guess there are a ton of awesome build orders that don´t get recognized because they are not executed by the very best Koreans.
On August 20 2012 03:00 CP-Jun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 02:59 Aunvilgod wrote:
And he speaks english pretty damn well too. Haha : ) I've translated his Korean tweet into English : )
I know, I know his english from the Pregame show.
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Russian Federation68 Posts
Where can i found build itself?
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I honestly have no idea why this needed analysis, this was nothing special about what he was doing, and any good Terran knows banshee's are a core to mech TvZ. It's pretty silly cause he reiterates the same thing a few times in his "analysis". And his analysis is even wrong, because he can't even begin to fathom the complexity of banshee usage (albeit it is correct to use them the way MVP showcased), but to talk about it in such a simplistic manner is doing the complexity of it, a true disservice.
He didn't do anything fancy or special, he simply played better with mech, perhaps people just aren't used to seeing it a lot in "big" games, but MKP did this for a long time, why not hail him?
On August 20 2012 03:06 lastshadow wrote:
I spoke about how koreans do this in practice 24/7? My vLogs from [6] months ago talk about it heavily and state it is a core of true mech play. I spent 40minutes speaking about banshee's and their gross effect on controlling zerg and how important they are to mech.
vLog#18 is the vLog im talking about.
lastshadow, always trying to get some attention are we? I thought you switched to LoL after the redbull humiliation?
User was banned for this post.
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On August 20 2012 04:08 Azulo wrote:Show nested quote +
I honestly have no idea why this needed analysis, this was nothing special about what he was doing, and any good Terran knows banshee's are a core to mech TvZ. It's pretty silly cause he reiterates the same thing a few times in his "analysis". And his analysis is even wrong, because he can't even begin to fathom the complexity of banshee usage (albeit it is correct to use them the way MVP showcased), but to talk about it in such a simplistic manner is doing the complexity of it, a true disservice.
He didn't do anything fancy or special, he simply played better with mech, perhaps people just aren't used to seeing it a lot in "big" games, but MKP did this for a long time, why not hail him?
Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:06 lastshadow wrote:
I spoke about how koreans do this in practice 24/7? My vLogs from [6] months ago talk about it heavily and state it is a core of true mech play. I spent 40minutes speaking about banshee's and their gross effect on controlling zerg and how important they are to mech.
vLog#18 is the vLog im talking about. lastshadow, always trying to get some attention are we? I thought you switched to LoL after the redbull humiliation?
No need for that and I hope you get at least a warning; he's perfectly entitled to his opinion.
Whilst this is new to tournament play and op may come in for some stick from better players who are more 'in the know', for the casual observer and player of starcraft, it's a new build and one which will likely start to crop up on the ladder.
Tournament play popularises builds and top tournaments popularise the top builds.
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On August 20 2012 04:08 Azulo wrote:Show nested quote +
I honestly have no idea why this needed analysis, this was nothing special about what he was doing, and any good Terran knows banshee's are a core to mech TvZ. It's pretty silly cause he reiterates the same thing a few times in his "analysis". And his analysis is even wrong, because he can't even begin to fathom the complexity of banshee usage (albeit it is correct to use them the way MVP showcased), but to talk about it in such a simplistic manner is doing the complexity of it, a true disservice.
He didn't do anything fancy or special, he simply played better with mech, perhaps people just aren't used to seeing it a lot in "big" games, but MKP did this for a long time, why not hail him?
Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:06 lastshadow wrote:
I spoke about how koreans do this in practice 24/7? My vLogs from [6] months ago talk about it heavily and state it is a core of true mech play. I spent 40minutes speaking about banshee's and their gross effect on controlling zerg and how important they are to mech.
vLog#18 is the vLog im talking about. lastshadow, always trying to get some attention are we? I thought you switched to LoL after the redbull humiliation?
1 post accounts ripping on known community members ftw.
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On August 20 2012 03:06 lastshadow wrote:
I spoke about how koreans do this in practice 24/7? My vLogs from [6] months ago talk about it heavily and state it is a core of true mech play. I spent 40minutes speaking about banshee's and their gross effect on controlling zerg and how important they are to mech.
vLog#18 is the vLog im talking about.
Theory and execution are two different things.
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I think the key point of this is the Double Armory. You might even be able to beat Zerg's 3/3 Air upgrades with your 3/3 Mech upgrades and it allows Thors to efficiently kill Brood Lords. Without the Double Armory, Thors are useless vs. Brood Lords and Hellions get murdered by Cracklings. Remember: once your 3/3 mech finishes, research air upgrades! If you finish your 3/3 air upgrades, Viking/Thor/Raven will be incredibly efficient against Brood Lord/Corrupter.
The promising thing about this is that if you play it right, the composition can work against both Ultras and Brood Lords, meaning that Tech switches are not that dangerous.
Please watch Mvp vs. VortiX game 1: http://www.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/b/329198029
I think that's a beautiful demonstration of how mostly Thors + a handful of Vikings + a few Ravens in the first fight (though no more Ravens were needed after that) can deal with Corrupter/Brood Lord.
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On August 20 2012 02:59 lastshadow wrote:
I honestly have no idea why this needed analysis, this was nothing special about what he was doing, and any good Terran knows banshee's are a core to mech TvZ. It's pretty silly cause he reiterates the same thing a few times in his "analysis". And his analysis is even wrong, because he can't even begin to fathom the complexity of banshee usage (albeit it is correct to use them the way MVP showcased), but to talk about it in such a simplistic manner is doing the complexity of it, a true disservice.
He didn't do anything fancy or special, he simply played better with mech, perhaps people just aren't used to seeing it a lot in "big" games, but MKP did this for a long time, why not hail him?
You shouldn't be allowed to indirectly criticize a player who wins major tournaments when you bailed out on your commitment. The simple fact that you described yourself as a good terran is an heresy to me.
But since I'm all for forgiveness and fluffy ponies maybe you can reiterate the explanation you did on your vlog so that people can see the intricacies of such a play - the least you could do would be to link to it. You know so that you can prove to yourself that you aren't just a bitter person (which is what you looks like after that post)
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I am not really sure about this, but I believe he did this build only in Metropolis, so it could be map dependant.
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Am i the only One to notice that it was really the seeker missiles that made the difference in the end game battles? MVP landed some sick heat seekers which anhiliated the broodlords before they did any damage. TvZ isn't so muh about a specific build but how u trade as cost efficiently with the inevitable broodlords.
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On August 20 2012 05:30 Ratch! wrote:
I am not really sure about this, but I believe he did this build only in Metropolis, so it could be map dependant.
It is definitely map dependent, never do this on Entombed Valley. However, I have seen him do it on Ohana too. I think most small-ish maps will work well for this style of play.
On August 20 2012 06:21 art0 wrote:
Am i the only One to notice that it was really the seeker missiles that made the difference in the end game battles? MVP landed some sick heat seekers which anhiliated the broodlords before they did any damage. TvZ isn't so muh about a specific build but how u trade as cost efficiently with the inevitable broodlords.
Again, please watch Mvp vs VortiX game 1. In many battles, he did not use HSM, but the Thors/Vikings were efficient enough to clean up the Brood Lords with sufficient upgrades. Yes, the Ravens are very very good, however I think it depends on your enemy's composition.
Vs. heavy Infestor-usage, you probably need lots of Siege Tanks and Raven/Viking with a sprinkling of Thors. The Infestors won't be able to close in with the Siege Tanks there, so the Brood Lords will be exposed. If they're exposed with no Infestors nearby, then the Ravens can close in. It's basically a dance... Infestors beat Ravens, Ravens beat Brood Lords, Brood Lords beat Tanks, Tanks beat Infestors...
Vs. heavy Corrupter usage (less Infestors), you need tons of Thors since Thors will trade very efficiently with BL/Corrupter. Also have a few Vikings and Ravens and try to land those clutch HSMs. Siege Tanks are not that necessary
3/3 Thors vs. Brood Lords actually perform really well. Brood Lords kill them extremely slowly, especially with SCV and Blue Flame Hellion support, while Thors do pretty well with their splash.
Important notes about Mvp's playstyle:
1. Your main army is Vikings/Thors/Ravens/Tanks/Banshees. You want gas, your minerals are disposable. Dump your minerals into BF Hellions and constantly ravage your enemy's mineral lines. If you don't kill like 50 drones, you should make more Hellions and try again. 
I think harass is very important because if the Zerg player takes lots of bases QUICKLY, then he can probably overrun you. If you cripple his economy, then his production will be slower and you will be able to starve the Zerg out.
2. 4-5 Banshees shuts down Roach all-ins and Baneling busts pretty hard, especially if there are bunkers + Tanks + sim city with supply depots. 4-5 Banshees can also kill a Zerg if he's unprepared.
3. Scout what he's doing. If he's made lots of Roach/ling/bling, make Tanks and Banshees. If he's made Mutas, pop out 3 Thors ASAP.
4. Don't throw away your tanks. You want tanks to discourage infestors, and discouraging infestors means that your Ravens can land their HSMs. However, Tanks get owned pretty hard by BLs... so stay on your high ground, have the Thors in front tanking damage/killing Zerg Air, have your Hellions killing drones. Basically, your Thors soak up so much Broodling damage that the Tanks stay alive long enough.
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On August 20 2012 06:21 art0 wrote:
Am i the only One to notice that it was really the seeker missiles that made the difference in the end game battles? MVP landed some sick heat seekers which anhiliated the broodlords before they did any damage. TvZ isn't so muh about a specific build but how u trade as cost efficiently with the inevitable broodlords.
MVP does not use any Ravens with this build.
Basically MVP brought two TvZ builds to this tournament.
The first was this mech build, which he used on smaller maps like Ohana and Cloud Kingdom.
The second was a standard double ebay MMMTV early and mid game, but transitioning into nonstandard PF+Viking+Raven+BC in the lategame. Which he used on larger maps like Antiga, Metropolis, Atlantis Spaceship, and Daybreak. Although he didn't always get to to the Sky Terran part depending upon how agressive the Zerg played. This is probably where you're thinking about the seeker missiles.
MVP did mix in some 2 Rax Bunker rush cheese. And one game he did a fast BFH drop into mech. But something like 90% of his TvZ games was one of the two above builds.
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Not sure if it is map dependant, TheStC did it on his stream on entombed valley cross po, basically the same thing, lots of hellion and banshee, early third and double upgrades.
He did not need any raven to kill the zerg though.
Maybe MVP has his own build but that mechplay is not brand new, that i can tell.
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Yeah. I've noticed this as welll, He is really making good use of banshees, and ravaging Mineral lines
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Wouldn't this still be weak against roach drops?
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On August 20 2012 09:46 peragon wrote:
Wouldn't this still be weak against roach drops?
I think is too risky to go for roach drop whe you have hellions running by the map trying to roast your drones, i mean, if you go for it you'll be 100% out of position to defend your bases. Unless you're willing to put some serious money on spine crawlers and queens.
I wonder if marauders would do as good of a job as banshees do...
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Am I mistaken or is this simply 1 Rax Expand into Reactor Hellion + Banshee, into third base, into add 2 more factories and 2 more armories?
This isn't anything new, why did Engine pick now to comment on this if it's so interesting? He's a GSL caster right? Did he not watch/remember Gumiho doing this way back vs Nestea in a WCG qualifier? (And that may not have been the first time we saw it in a tournament)
I've been doing this for pretty much every single TvZ (though I prefer to reactor hellion expand since it's safer, as I win almost all my TvZ's and so I do that just to lessen the chance of losing to a cheese/rush, and usually instead of getting a third, I go up to 3 factories + 1 armory then a third, but back then I used to take a fast third before adding 2 more factories and the double armories), and I will say that yes, having 4-5+ banshees is definitely very strong, if he tries to bust you, you could potentially stutter step your banshees to kill his roaches all the way to your base. Then, he will have to kill the wall there, which might even have a bunker and/or SCVs repairing, before he can kill the hellions, the finally get to the thors. Basically it's really safe as terran. If he tries to bust you with banelings, all you need to do is scout that he is doing it and/or see the area around your base so that you can snipe down many banelings before they touch your wall.
On August 20 2012 05:16 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 02:59 lastshadow wrote:
I honestly have no idea why this needed analysis, this was nothing special about what he was doing, and any good Terran knows banshee's are a core to mech TvZ. It's pretty silly cause he reiterates the same thing a few times in his "analysis". And his analysis is even wrong, because he can't even begin to fathom the complexity of banshee usage (albeit it is correct to use them the way MVP showcased), but to talk about it in such a simplistic manner is doing the complexity of it, a true disservice.
He didn't do anything fancy or special, he simply played better with mech, perhaps people just aren't used to seeing it a lot in "big" games, but MKP did this for a long time, why not hail him? You shouldn't be allowed to indirectly criticize a player who wins major tournaments when you bailed out on your commitment. The simple fact that you described yourself as a good terran is an heresy to me. But since I'm all for forgiveness and fluffy ponies maybe you can reiterate the explanation you did on your vlog so that people can see the intricacies of such a play - the least you could do would be to link to it. You know so that you can prove to yourself that you aren't just a bitter person (which is what you looks like after that post)
Um, what? So, playing as a high level player and then quitting is worse than a non-progamer criticizing MVP?
Also you didn't even read LS's post right, he wasn't criticizing MVP, he was criticizing Engine's critique.
You don't think that LS, on a progamer level, is a good terran? You don't think he has a better opinion than almost all SC2 players? How good do you have to be to be considered a "good" terran? Maybe you mean good as in compared to the top players, but you can't ignore the meaning of "good terran" relative to all SC2 players by assuming he means "one of the best terrans" and attacking him for that.
Anyways, not that LS even called himself a good player.
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On August 20 2012 03:06 lastshadow wrote:
I spoke about how koreans do this in practice 24/7? My vLogs from [6] months ago talk about it heavily and state it is a core of true mech play. I spent 40minutes speaking about banshee's and their gross effect on controlling zerg and how important they are to mech.
vLog#18 is the vLog im talking about.
Omg we should all hail lastshadow trolololol
The unique thing that I saw was that he would make 2 banshees but then stop for a bit unless he saw roaches. He would then come back and go up to 5 (no less no more) when hive tech was coming out. This saved him gas for upgrades and other stuff earlier as opposed to the terrans that make like 5-6 banshees at the beginning nonstop. You notice the difference when he has 3-3 thors fighting against the first wave of broodlords.
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On August 20 2012 10:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Am I mistaken or is this simply 1 Rax Expand into Reactor Hellion + Banshee, into third base, into add 2 more factories and 2 more armories?
This isn't anything new, why did Engine pick now to comment on this if it's so interesting? He's a GSL caster right? Did he not watch/remember Gumiho doing this way back vs Nestea in a WCG qualifier? (And that may not have been the first time we saw it in a tournament)
Whats new is the way that MVP integrates Cloak Banshees at a unique timing between Lair and Hive, and the continual production of Banshees beyond the normal 1-4. Normally with double armory mech the Terran will be powerless to prevent the Zerg from taking four bases really quickly and getting Infestor+BL ridiculously early
With MVP's Banshee integration, the Cloak Banshees hit at a very key timing between Lair and Hive that denies the fourth base at the cost of very little research time on the Armories. It also allows MVP to get away with just one Reactor Factory for harass instead of needing 2. The extra minerals are then freed up for macro orbitals, which synergies very well with double armory factory units.
The early Banshees delays Factory production in the early game, but the biggest Hatch tech threats (Roach, Bane, Ling) are easily covered by Banshees. Mutas are deflected by favoring Thors over Tanks, and Infestors are not a threat because by the time they get Pathogen Glands and cross map siege tech is well finished.
All that leaves is Hive tech, which is dealt with by double up Thors. The early starport also allows the Terran to clear out OLs with Vikings in the early game, which shuts down Roach drops and Nydus plays in the mid-late game.
My best guess for the weakness of this build would be a Roach/Muta timing that hits when the Terran is still on Thor/Hellion/Banshee and doesn't have any Tanks yet.
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How does this fare against 2 base mass muta? (with good simcity)
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On August 20 2012 11:38 sluggaslamoo wrote:
How does this fare against 2 base mass muta?
It would blind counter it.
But 2 base Muta is so bad against the standard 1 Rax FE into double ebay 4 Rax MMMTV that no Zerg in their right mind would risk doing it.
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On August 20 2012 11:42 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 11:38 sluggaslamoo wrote:
How does this fare against 2 base mass muta? It would blind counter it. But 2 base Muta is so bad against the standard 1 Rax FE into double ebay 4 Rax MMMTV that no Zerg in their right mind would risk doing it.
Ok thanks for the info.
So you don't think that you could do a reactionary mineral/gas bank into 2/3 base muta?
For example see factory reactor/starport techlab with overlord, get lair and defend with minimal units (roaches/queens/spores/etc), bank until spire and then bust out with mass muta?
You might not kill the Terran, but I feel like the 3rd denial, plus massive map control would allow you to drone hard and with better tech to boot.
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With 2 base muta you won't be able to deny the terran of his third easily. It would first of all be somewhat hard to know for sure what the terran is doing: is he taking a fast third before adding 2 more factories, or is he getting to 3 facts then adding a CC? If you happen to go 3 fact and he gets mutas ~11 minutes, you can move out with 4 thors (given you didn't lose too many hellions/banshees and/or you did a decent amount of dmg to the zerg with the hellion/banshee harass), and basically auto-win. If you send in 1-2 ovies to scout his base out, what if he isn't going into mech, but instead bio (and thus, has more than 1-2 marines)? You might lose those ovie(s). Of course, he can still get scouting info, but even if he's banking on you taking a fast third and going mech, and that is what you're doing, you should still be able to get an ebay + turrets up in time.
If he goes 2 base muta and you're getting a fast third, you won't have many thors out if at all (though, if you harass/scout well with your banshees, you should know his gas/lair/spire timing, and be able to adapt if you see mutas), and you may need an ebay, but you'll still be able to get 3 base vs his 2 (or at least, get 3 OCs ready).
If he rushes mutas earlier at like ~9, that could kill you if you didn't scout it, but with your banshees poking around it should be easy to see if he has 4 gas going up or not.
One reason why I've been using 3 factory before third more than 3rd into 2 more fact into double armory is because with the latter, I feel like I'm too passive. At least in lower than pro-level, the first option seems better (especially on ladder), because most zergs in my experience will get ~11 min mutas, and auto-lose. If you get the third base first, you can't punish zergs and get an auto-win like you can with the 3 fact into 3rd. Getting a 3rd first can help me get to the lategame, where mech can show its strength better, but I find it hard to keep enough pressure on the zerg to keep a lead (or get greedy enough without being too skimpy on defense) instead of just evening out in the lategame.
If someone can answer, does MVP usually find ways to pressure even after taking his third? Or does he more just take map control and defend his 3 bases, and not necessarily keep killing drones?
Normally with double armory mech the Terran will be powerless to prevent the Zerg from taking four bases really quickly and getting Infestor+BL ridiculously early
You can prevent a zerg from taking a really really quick fourth, but I don't think there is much you can do from stopping the situation from getting to 4 to 3 base, even though you may have gotten a faster third OC up? Especially on a map like cloud kingdom, he doesn't have to spread his creep far, and he can just reuse overseers/queens/spores from earlier to stop banshees from sniping the hatch. But if anyone has any tips, i'd like to know :D
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On August 20 2012 13:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:With 2 base muta you won't be able to deny the terran of his third easily. It would first of all be somewhat hard to know for sure what the terran is doing: is he taking a fast third before adding 2 more factories, or is he getting to 3 facts then adding a CC? If you happen to go 3 fact and he gets mutas ~11 minutes, you can move out with 4 thors (given you didn't lose too many hellions/banshees and/or you did a decent amount of dmg to the zerg with the hellion/banshee harass), and basically auto-win. If you send in 1-2 ovies to scout his base out, what if he isn't going into mech, but instead bio (and thus, has more than 1-2 marines)? You might lose those ovie(s). Of course, he can still get scouting info, but even if he's banking on you taking a fast third and going mech, and that is what you're doing, you should still be able to get an ebay + turrets up in time. If he goes 2 base muta and you're getting a fast third, you won't have many thors out if at all (though, if you harass/scout well with your banshees, you should know his gas/lair/spire timing, and be able to adapt if you see mutas), and you may need an ebay, but you'll still be able to get 3 base vs his 2 (or at least, get 3 OCs ready). If he rushes mutas earlier at like ~9, that could kill you if you didn't scout it, but with your banshees poking around it should be easy to see if he has 4 gas going up or not. One reason why I've been using 3 factory before third more than 3rd into 2 more fact into double armory is because with the latter, I feel like I'm too passive. At least in lower than pro-level, the first option seems better (especially on ladder), because most zergs in my experience will get ~11 min mutas, and auto-lose. If you get the third base first, you can't punish zergs and get an auto-win like you can with the 3 fact into 3rd. Getting a 3rd first can help me get to the lategame, where mech can show its strength better, but I find it hard to keep enough pressure on the zerg to keep a lead (or get greedy enough without being too skimpy on defense) instead of just evening out in the lategame. If someone can answer, does MVP usually find ways to pressure even after taking his third? Or does he more just take map control and defend his 3 bases, and not necessarily keep killing drones? Show nested quote +Normally with double armory mech the Terran will be powerless to prevent the Zerg from taking four bases really quickly and getting Infestor+BL ridiculously early You can prevent a zerg from taking a really really quick fourth, but I don't think there is much you can do from stopping the situation from getting to 4 to 3 base, even though you may have gotten a faster third OC up? Especially on a map like cloud kingdom, he doesn't have to spread his creep far, and he can just reuse overseers/queens/spores from earlier to stop banshees from sniping the hatch. But if anyone has any tips, i'd like to know :D
Ok thanks for the in-depth info
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Some people need to stop pretending valid points aren't valid just because they have some grudge against the person who states them. What Last Shadow said is entirely correct: This idea is nothing New, top players have understood the importance of Banshee's in Mech for ages. Sure, it might be new to see this style dominating in tournament setting, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been around for a long time. People should listen to logic rather then assuming people like LastShadow are wrong just because they personally don't like his personality.
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On August 20 2012 13:43 Krystal wrote:
Some people need to stop pretending valid points aren't valid just because they have some grudge against the person who states them. What Last Shadow said is entirely correct: This idea is nothing New, top players have understood the importance of Banshee's in Mech for ages. Sure, it might be new to see this style dominating in tournament setting, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been around for a long time. People should listen to logic rather then assuming people like LastShadow are wrong just because they personally don't like his personality.
Agreed :D MVP certainly is not the only player to have made more than 1-4 banshees, nor continually make them throughout the game. Experienced mechers should understand how well the banshee synergizes with mech. Maybe Engine just wanted to post on MVP's play since he decided now that he would like to help popularize mech play or didn't think of it in the past. But if he's doing it because he feels that MVP actually has a distinctive style...? Well, if the latter is his purpose, either he has missed all the other people doing such build(s), or he needs to comment on much more specific things on exactly how MVP's style of Hellion/banshee-into-third-into-2-more-fact-into-double-armory is both unique and superior to others who have used the same build in the past.
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I don't know if this build is new or not but Mvp's hellion harrass is sick. He roasted atleast 40+ drones every game he used this strat.
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And his analysis is even wrong
if you havent heard Engine's in depth analysis of other games
i strongly suggest that you do so. this guy is a much better than you are when it comes to analysing builds.
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On August 20 2012 14:27 mongmong wrote:if you havent heard Engine's in depth analysis of other games i strongly suggest that you do so. this guy is a much better than you are when it comes to analysing builds.
what? he could be the best analyzer in the entire world for all I care. He can still be wrong. Coming from a player who has had experience with the build in pro level play for over 6 months, i'm far more likely to place my trust in LastShadow than Engine.
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On August 20 2012 13:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 13:43 Krystal wrote:
Some people need to stop pretending valid points aren't valid just because they have some grudge against the person who states them. What Last Shadow said is entirely correct: This idea is nothing New, top players have understood the importance of Banshee's in Mech for ages. Sure, it might be new to see this style dominating in tournament setting, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been around for a long time. People should listen to logic rather then assuming people like LastShadow are wrong just because they personally don't like his personality.
Agreed :D MVP certainly is not the only player to have made more than 1-4 banshees, nor continually make them throughout the game. Experienced mechers should understand how well the banshee synergizes with mech. Maybe Engine just wanted to post on MVP's play since he decided now that he would like to help popularize mech play or didn't think of it in the past. But if he's doing it because he feels that MVP actually has a distinctive style...? Well, if the latter is his purpose, either he has missed all the other people doing such build(s), or he needs to comment on much more specific things on exactly how MVP's style of Hellion/banshee-into-third-into-2-more-fact-into-double-armory is both unique and superior to others who have used the same build in the past.
MVP first did this build around 2 months ago and Engine said he wanted to cast it then but I think it was on OSL so he didn't get the chance. Then MVP never used the build when Engine was casting his games, so he got fed up of waiting for his chance and just took to Twitter 2 months later.
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if you havent heard Engine's in depth analysis of other games
i strongly suggest that you do so. this guy is a much better than you are when it comes to analysing builds.
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what? he could be the best analyzer in the entire world for all I care. He can still be wrong. Coming from a player who has had experience with the build in pro level play for over 6 months, i'm far more likely to place my trust in LastShadow than Engine.
Ive seen so many times of him stream and he loses to mid-high masters on korean server. I actually have friends who faced
(not pros) last shadow on ladder and they all said he is nowhere near as good as pro. Also Engine is mid~high masters
on random, he commentates most of the top gsl code s matches and he has been doing this shit for a long time. LS getting
into gm on korean server was later revealed by Major who stated that ls pays other "pro" level players to get his account
into gm so that people would see it and think hes good enough to make pro. I dunno if youre his fan or not but ive seen him
constantly bash other established members of the community and say cocky shit like "he doenst know how to play"
whereas he has produced zero results while living in korea.
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On August 20 2012 14:52 mongmong wrote:Show nested quote +if you havent heard Engine's in depth analysis of other games
i strongly suggest that you do so. this guy is a much better than you are when it comes to analysing builds.
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what? he could be the best analyzer in the entire world for all I care. He can still be wrong. Coming from a player who has had experience with the build in pro level play for over 6 months, i'm far more likely to place my trust in LastShadow than Engine. Ive seen so many times of him stream and he loses to mid-high masters on korean server. I actually have friends who faced (not pros) last shadow on ladder and they all said he is nowhere near as good as pro. Also Engine is mid~high masters on random, he commentates most of the top gsl code s matches and he has been doing this shit for a long time. LS getting into gm on korean server was later revealed by Major who stated that ls pays other "pro" level players to get his account into gm so that people would see it and think hes good enough to make pro. I dunno if youre his fan or not but ive seen him constantly bash other established members of the community and say cocky shit like "he doenst know how to play" whereas he has produced zero results while living in korea.
Na not really a fan and I wasn't aware of what major said. Even so, at this point my faith is still in LastShadow.
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@FataLe
yep sure i dont care where you have your faith in
but just to let you know that ls is no pro level player (so are other so called foreign pro gamers who has zero results)
+the fact that youve never heard engine commentate
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Getting the impression that engine is KR Day 9 or Artosis. Which sounds cool.
There's no reason to shit on LastShadow here he hasn't done anything wrong (well unless you hate hipster nerds so goddamn much but hey let's face it if you were in LS's position and you see this thread you'd want to yell at it too!)
MVP's mech build is just a good mech build. I wouldn't say it's revolutionary because most of it is simple enough. Make hellions, make banshees, make 3 cc's then 2 armouries then factories and so on. Super basic shit, we've been doing this since queen range because how else do you TvZ. The main thing that I think is interesting is the additional banshees, much like what engine points out. They make you a ton safer against lair tech aggression (excluding mutalisks) and if the zerg has no mutalisks then they are going to have a fun time against 5-6 spread out banshees just shooting everything down. It takes a lot of fungal energy to get rid of that many banshees.
The main thing about MVP's mech play is that mech is an extremely demanding style in terms of the amount of decisions that have to be made. What to make and when. When to expand, when to attack, how to do that early damage with hellions and banshees, exactly how many of each unit. It's extremely simple to make a wrong decision or two and suddenly you're really really behind with this stupid cumbersome army that doesn't do anything useful. I've studied a lot of MVP's play in this tournament, not just his mech TvZ, and there are so many subtleties that go into his play that you can only barely see if you look really hard for them. He really is a genius at this game.
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On August 20 2012 15:00 FataLe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 14:52 mongmong wrote:if you havent heard Engine's in depth analysis of other games
i strongly suggest that you do so. this guy is a much better than you are when it comes to analysing builds.
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what? he could be the best analyzer in the entire world for all I care. He can still be wrong. Coming from a player who has had experience with the build in pro level play for over 6 months, i'm far more likely to place my trust in LastShadow than Engine. Ive seen so many times of him stream and he loses to mid-high masters on korean server. I actually have friends who faced (not pros) last shadow on ladder and they all said he is nowhere near as good as pro. Also Engine is mid~high masters on random, he commentates most of the top gsl code s matches and he has been doing this shit for a long time. LS getting into gm on korean server was later revealed by Major who stated that ls pays other "pro" level players to get his account into gm so that people would see it and think hes good enough to make pro. I dunno if youre his fan or not but ive seen him constantly bash other established members of the community and say cocky shit like "he doenst know how to play" whereas he has produced zero results while living in korea. Na not really a fan and I wasn't aware of what major said. Even so, at this point my faith is still in LastShadow.
engine is 1 of the best korean analytical casters in the world, LS is smart but probably not as smart, as engine is equally as good.
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On August 20 2012 14:33 Clefairy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 13:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On August 20 2012 13:43 Krystal wrote:
Some people need to stop pretending valid points aren't valid just because they have some grudge against the person who states them. What Last Shadow said is entirely correct: This idea is nothing New, top players have understood the importance of Banshee's in Mech for ages. Sure, it might be new to see this style dominating in tournament setting, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been around for a long time. People should listen to logic rather then assuming people like LastShadow are wrong just because they personally don't like his personality.
Agreed :D MVP certainly is not the only player to have made more than 1-4 banshees, nor continually make them throughout the game. Experienced mechers should understand how well the banshee synergizes with mech. Maybe Engine just wanted to post on MVP's play since he decided now that he would like to help popularize mech play or didn't think of it in the past. But if he's doing it because he feels that MVP actually has a distinctive style...? Well, if the latter is his purpose, either he has missed all the other people doing such build(s), or he needs to comment on much more specific things on exactly how MVP's style of Hellion/banshee-into-third-into-2-more-fact-into-double-armory is both unique and superior to others who have used the same build in the past. MVP first did this build around 2 months ago and Engine said he wanted to cast it then but I think it was on OSL so he didn't get the chance. Then MVP never used the build when Engine was casting his games, so he got fed up of waiting for his chance and just took to Twitter 2 months later.
Ah, thanks for filling me in!
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Basically what the build is stating is to mix in more banshees instead of tanks or thors? This allows you to help with some of the drops/roach-ling pushes from zerg?
Interesting stuff, so much gas but I think on 3 bases and conservative use of banshees (harass, but don't let them die. slow pushes with them to prevent mutalisk snipings) you could get a good composition of thor/banshee/hellion with 3-4 tanks.
Mech is so insanely expensive though >< Really needs some non-gas intensive units that actually can compete with roaches even if it's not late-game viable.
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
Keep the discussion on topic please.
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This build isn't new at all, I've been doing it in my tvzs for months now and I orginally got it from marine king in one of tthe winter arena replays. Lot of people do this build. From watching replays of Major, he too adds on more banshees to deal more dps and deal with roaches better. All I know is MvP executes it so well.
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On August 21 2012 00:03 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Am I mistaken or is this simply 1 Rax Expand into Reactor Hellion + Banshee, into third base, into add 2 more factories and 2 more armories?
This isn't anything new, why did Engine pick now to comment on this if it's so interesting? He's a GSL caster right? Did he not watch/remember Gumiho doing this way back vs Nestea in a WCG qualifier? (And that may not have been the first time we saw it in a tournament) Just because it's well known to players, doesn't mean it's well known to the public. IEM was viewed by a much broader audience than a WCG qualifier, and engine might not even have seen that. In any case, it's probable that engine didn't just come up with his analysis on the spot, but rather have known of the intricacies of the build and now commenting on it since it's being used so extensively in a large tournament. I don't understand what there is to criticize about engines analysis.
Makes sense, but I'm not criticizing the material in the analysis, rather questioning why he chose now to analyze this. I don't consider IEM that big, mostly maybe just because I don't feel interested in watching IEM usually, but if others perceive it to be big, then that would explain why engine is analyzing it now. If he wanted to make the public aware of this, I'm saying he could have done it earlier, so if he's doing it now, is it because he didn't feel like doing it earlier, or because there is something actually different from the way MVP does it, and the way others do it? If it's the latter (which should be true, since MVP I hear executed it very well), then I don't see the specifics of what makes MVP's style of this build different than let's say gumiho's. But if it's the former then I guess he just felt more impelled to make a tweet now since MVP has brought the build to the spotlight I guess. However, he did note that MVP makes more banshees than the "usual", which seems to be the only important difference, so perhaps it's a combination of both, but, (and maybe this is just the translation), it's sounding as if Engine is saying MVP is the first one to do this (in the tourny scene), while he's not.
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pffff
standard goody build!
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On August 20 2012 15:10 mongmong wrote:
@FataLe
yep sure i dont care where you have your faith in
but just to let you know that ls is no pro level player (so are other so called foreign pro gamers who has zero results)
+the fact that youve never heard engine commentate
I think you are too harsh now. With all these KeSPA and GSL players with all their smurfs there is now way you get into KR GM without being a top foreigner. Does not mean the rest are not progamers.
Anyway, do you guys think you need as much APM for Mvp style Mech-Air play as you do for Bio?
On August 20 2012 09:46 peragon wrote:
Wouldn't this still be weak against roach drops?
Because nobody does early Roach drops in TvZ nobody knows.
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On August 21 2012 00:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 00:03 monkybone wrote:On August 20 2012 10:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Am I mistaken or is this simply 1 Rax Expand into Reactor Hellion + Banshee, into third base, into add 2 more factories and 2 more armories?
This isn't anything new, why did Engine pick now to comment on this if it's so interesting? He's a GSL caster right? Did he not watch/remember Gumiho doing this way back vs Nestea in a WCG qualifier? (And that may not have been the first time we saw it in a tournament) Just because it's well known to players, doesn't mean it's well known to the public. IEM was viewed by a much broader audience than a WCG qualifier, and engine might not even have seen that. In any case, it's probable that engine didn't just come up with his analysis on the spot, but rather have known of the intricacies of the build and now commenting on it since it's being used so extensively in a large tournament. I don't understand what there is to criticize about engines analysis. Makes sense, but I'm not criticizing the material in the analysis, rather questioning why he chose now to analyze this. I don't consider IEM that big, mostly maybe just because I don't feel interested in watching IEM usually, but if others perceive it to be big, then that would explain why engine is analyzing it now. If he wanted to make the public aware of this, I'm saying he could have done it earlier, so if he's doing it now, is it because he didn't feel like doing it earlier, or because there is something actually different from the way MVP does it, and the way others do it? If it's the latter (which should be true, since MVP I hear executed it very well), then I don't see the specifics of what makes MVP's style of this build different than let's say gumiho's. But if it's the former then I guess he just felt more impelled to make a tweet now since MVP has brought the build to the spotlight I guess. However, he did note that MVP makes more banshees than the "usual", which seems to be the only important difference, so perhaps it's a combination of both, but, (and maybe this is just the translation), it's sounding as if Engine is saying MVP is the first one to do this (in the tourny scene), while he's not.
I think it might have to do with the fact the MVP used this build many times during IEM and had success with it. Obviously, many of the builds that pros shows in tournaments have been tested and refined a lot in their practice and team houses. The ideas itself might not even be from themselves but something they saw on ladder and just refined it. It is similar to Stephano's 200 max roach push vs protoss. He was not the first one to show it in a pro game. But he execution and the consistent success with it was beyond the other zergs at that moment. Thus it got coined as the Stephano build.
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On August 21 2012 00:20 Aunvilgod wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 15:10 mongmong wrote:
@FataLe
yep sure i dont care where you have your faith in
but just to let you know that ls is no pro level player (so are other so called foreign pro gamers who has zero results)
+the fact that youve never heard engine commentate I think you are too harsh now. With all these KeSPA and GSL players with all their smurfs there is now way you get into KR GM without being a top foreigner. Does not mean the rest are not progamers. Anyway, do you guys think you need as much APM for Mvp style Mech-Air play as you do for Bio? Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 09:46 peragon wrote:
Wouldn't this still be weak against roach drops? Because nobody does early Roach drops in TvZ nobody knows.
Nestea tried a roach drop on top of Mvp's army on CK, Mvp pulled all of his scvs to repair his army and smashed the drop, he did lose half his workers though. Mvp actually did end up winning.
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On August 20 2012 09:46 peragon wrote:
Wouldn't this still be weak against roach drops?
Yes, it is actually weak against any roach transition that you do not scout in time and switch to tanks. Both SuperNoVa and MVP were caught off guard in one of their games. However, the banshees give you a lot of map presence so you should have enough time to react. And the zerg would have to make a huge commitment doing a doom drop and have little chance of transition unless they do a lot of damage.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On August 20 2012 07:18 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:21 art0 wrote:
Am i the only One to notice that it was really the seeker missiles that made the difference in the end game battles? MVP landed some sick heat seekers which anhiliated the broodlords before they did any damage. TvZ isn't so muh about a specific build but how u trade as cost efficiently with the inevitable broodlords. MVP does not use any Ravens with this build. Basically MVP brought two TvZ builds to this tournament. The first was this mech build, which he used on smaller maps like Ohana and Cloud Kingdom. The second was a standard double ebay MMMTV early and mid game, but transitioning into nonstandard PF+Viking+Raven+BC in the lategame. Which he used on larger maps like Antiga, Metropolis, Atlantis Spaceship, and Daybreak. Although he didn't always get to to the Sky Terran part depending upon how agressive the Zerg played. This is probably where you're thinking about the seeker missiles. MVP did mix in some 2 Rax Bunker rush cheese. And one game he did a fast BFH drop into mech. But something like 90% of his TvZ games was one of the two above builds.
RoboBob I talked with you about this on Reddit. He uses Ravens with this build, at least sometimes, and probably always eventually. The games he didn't were the ones he did massive damage with Hellions/Banshees and so he had a huge lead. He did not need to play defensively, he just went for a maxed out Mech push FTW.
He gets a Raven in his game vs NesTea on Cloud Kingdom quite early. He also gets 4-5 of them vs Vortix on the game on Ohana. I won't pretend to know MVP's thought process for when he gets Ravens and when not, but he certainly does get them with this build.
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This was probably common knowledge to everybody but me, but it wasn't until this IEM I realized that if you get thors before any tanks, you'll be able to deal with mutas really well, unless it's an actual muta rush you're facing.
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anybody have a build order link for this? I want to practice it when I get home
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On August 21 2012 01:26 renaissanceMAN wrote:
anybody have a build order link for this? I want to practice it when I get home
quick notes I made when watching it were
1 rax fe opening:
10 supply
12 rax
15 oc
15 marine (3 total)
then as follows based on when can afford
2x refinery
supply depot
factory + reactor on rax (at this point if Z has gas i would recommend bunker tucked in by CC)
swap and start hellion production
starport + techlab on rax
banshee production starts
3rd CC
cloak
3rd refinery
2x armoury
4th refinery
1/1 vehicle weapons + armour
2x fac
I didn't continue from here, but you get techlabs on both facs straight away. start thor production first (can then chose to stay more on thors, tanks or mixture). get 2 more factories quite quickly while taking 5th + 6th gas. you can produce a raven or viking at some point, send viking around map for overlords, and take raven with your banshees and/or helions to clean up creep. Good point to push out is when 2/2 finishes.
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I think alot of people are miss-understanding the build. If you watch the games where mvp does this opener he ends up doing a'lot of damage very early on and it is one of the only ways really for mech to work in this MU at the moment. If damage isn't done early, you can never get a proper composition to hit a timing and damage the opponent before broods or keep them from mass expanding. If the zerg prepares and defends properly they will end up ahead against this opener by just taking more expansions and using roach play to tech, it is far from impossible for zerg to defend against a'lot of banshees and hellions while taking a 4th..
MVP is investing a'lot early on to maximize his damage.. he only starts making units that are really apart of his core composition around the 11-12 minute mark ( where thors + tanks start ) So the entire premise is really based around doing a shit ton of damage... this will be really hard to accomplish once zergs recognize the build and prepare. So i highly suggest you guys not to over-look the subtle things that made this build good like the meta-game, current zerg trends and what not... I really don't think mvp would even feel comfortable going in with this build in a league.. unless he just wanted to throw it in 1 game to mix the zerg up. I can't see this ever being a solid opening with it having nearly complete reliance on your ability to kill drones in the early stages.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On August 21 2012 02:01 VPCursed wrote:
I think alot of people are miss-understanding the build. If you watch the games where mvp does this opener he ends up doing a'lot of damage very early on and it is one of the only ways really for mech to work in this MU at the moment. If damage isn't done early, you can never get a proper composition to hit a timing and damage the opponent before broods or keep them from mass expanding. If the zerg prepares and defends properly they will end up ahead against this opener by just taking more expansions and using roach play to tech, it is far from impossible for zerg to defend against a'lot of banshees and hellions while taking a 4th..
MVP is investing a'lot early on to maximize his damage.. he only starts making units that are really apart of his core composition around the 11-12 minute mark ( where thors + tanks start ) So the entire premise is really based around doing a shit ton of damage... this will be really hard to accomplish once zergs recognize the build and prepare. So i highly suggest you guys not to over-look the subtle things that made this build good like the meta-game, current zerg trends and what not... I really don't think mvp would even feel comfortable going in with this build in a league.. unless he just wanted to throw it in 1 game to mix the zerg up. I can't see this ever being a solid opening with it having nearly complete reliance on your ability to kill drones in the early stages.
This argument comes up in nearly every Mech thread. Yes, when Meching vs Zerg an important aspect is harassment. MVP's opening puts a good commitment into harassment, but also gives him Banshees for utility outside of harassment. That doesn't mean Mech, or this opening in particular, is somehow less solid than any other style. A lot of styles "depend" on doing some decent harassment in the game. A Zerg going Muta/Ling/Bling vs Protoss, who does 0 damage, is 9/10 times going to fail. A Bio Terran (MKP or Gumiho Style) who does 0 damage with Drops and such is also in a lot of trouble. Does that mean those styles aren't solid or can't be used repeatedly? Obviously not. MVP manages to do damage to Zergs who go fast Mutas or get Roaches. He even manages to do damage to NesTea when he goes Roaches AND Spire tech. Defending from Hellions and Banshees comes down to micro, you can't "counter" it with any sort of opening.
There is a game that goes against everything you have said: MVP vs Vortixx on Ohana. By the 13 minute mark MVP has only killed 15 more workers than Vortixx, and has traded over 12 Hellions to do that damage. Both players could have done more damage and prevented more damage with better multitask and micro, because that's what playing this build and defending it come down to. Not having some special build order to counter it.
And your notion that this build relies on being able to hit a timing before Brood Lords or denying the Zerg from taking all of his bases is proven wrong in this game as well. Vortixx hits MVP with Brood Lords right as he takes his 4th base, MVP has done no push to weaken Vortixx before this. Vortixx has all of his 5 bases, and MVP continues to repel Brood Lord attacks while counter-attacking with Hellions, and wins through sheer cost-effectiveness. At this stage too, neither of these players micro is perfect. MVP loses groups of Hellions for 0 damage, moves out with his Mech army a bit early and loses quite a few Mech units, and loses 5 Ravens (with HSM upgraded already) simply due to poor control in a fight. Vortixx clumps his Air units up on occasion, and doesn't defend every Hellion runby without taking some Drone losses.
So no, I don't think this build has some sort of build order counter. Like any other style in any other matchup, it's effectiveness comes down to your micro and unit control (and your opponents lack thereof).
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On August 21 2012 04:46 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 02:01 VPCursed wrote:
I think alot of people are miss-understanding the build. If you watch the games where mvp does this opener he ends up doing a'lot of damage very early on and it is one of the only ways really for mech to work in this MU at the moment. If damage isn't done early, you can never get a proper composition to hit a timing and damage the opponent before broods or keep them from mass expanding. If the zerg prepares and defends properly they will end up ahead against this opener by just taking more expansions and using roach play to tech, it is far from impossible for zerg to defend against a'lot of banshees and hellions while taking a 4th..
MVP is investing a'lot early on to maximize his damage.. he only starts making units that are really apart of his core composition around the 11-12 minute mark ( where thors + tanks start ) So the entire premise is really based around doing a shit ton of damage... this will be really hard to accomplish once zergs recognize the build and prepare. So i highly suggest you guys not to over-look the subtle things that made this build good like the meta-game, current zerg trends and what not... I really don't think mvp would even feel comfortable going in with this build in a league.. unless he just wanted to throw it in 1 game to mix the zerg up. I can't see this ever being a solid opening with it having nearly complete reliance on your ability to kill drones in the early stages. There is a game that goes against everything you have said: MVP vs Vortixx on Ohana. By the 13 minute mark MVP has only killed 15 more workers than Vortixx, and has traded over 12 Hellions to do that damage. Both players could have done more damage and prevented more damage with better multitask and micro, because that's what playing this build and defending it come down to. Not having some special build order to counter it.
Isn't it the game on ohana where he does continuous hellion runbys and gets 85+ drone kills because vortix refuses to build any spines?
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
>On August 21 2012 06:14 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 04:46 ZjiublingZ wrote:On August 21 2012 02:01 VPCursed wrote:
I think alot of people are miss-understanding the build. If you watch the games where mvp does this opener he ends up doing a'lot of damage very early on and it is one of the only ways really for mech to work in this MU at the moment. If damage isn't done early, you can never get a proper composition to hit a timing and damage the opponent before broods or keep them from mass expanding. If the zerg prepares and defends properly they will end up ahead against this opener by just taking more expansions and using roach play to tech, it is far from impossible for zerg to defend against a'lot of banshees and hellions while taking a 4th..
MVP is investing a'lot early on to maximize his damage.. he only starts making units that are really apart of his core composition around the 11-12 minute mark ( where thors + tanks start ) So the entire premise is really based around doing a shit ton of damage... this will be really hard to accomplish once zergs recognize the build and prepare. So i highly suggest you guys not to over-look the subtle things that made this build good like the meta-game, current zerg trends and what not... I really don't think mvp would even feel comfortable going in with this build in a league.. unless he just wanted to throw it in 1 game to mix the zerg up. I can't see this ever being a solid opening with it having nearly complete reliance on your ability to kill drones in the early stages. There is a game that goes against everything you have said: MVP vs Vortixx on Ohana. By the 13 minute mark MVP has only killed 15 more workers than Vortixx, and has traded over 12 Hellions to do that damage. Both players could have done more damage and prevented more damage with better multitask and micro, because that's what playing this build and defending it come down to. Not having some special build order to counter it. Isn't it the game on ohana where he does continuous hellion runbys and gets 85+ drone kills because vortix refuses to build any spines?
If by "refuses" you mean "can't afford to", then yes. Vortixx was starved for minerals almost the entire game, and Spine Crawlers don't stop the 6 Hellion runby's of MVP from doing any damage, they just limit it. Walling off the left most ramp would be way better than putting down Spine Crawlers.
Almost every single game at IEM MVP does great damage with Hellions even against equal micro/multi task opponents like Violet. You can't stop all damage from Hellions when your opponent is sending out 6 BFH Hellions every ~90 seconds to one of 4 or 5 bases you have. Even 4 Spines isn't going to negate all that damage, and is a significant investment that you have to make as soon as you start mining, as opposed to taking that hit in economy later on. Also, Vortixx denies quite a few runby's completely with Zerglings, which he wouldn't be able to afford if he had to make 4+ Spines at ~3 bases.
(also worth noting is Vortixx kills ~40 workers so it's only a 40 worker disparity, and MVP gets the last ~20ish kills when Vortixx is already quite behind).
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Don't know why people are saying MVP created this build. Puma is the first person to ever use it in a tournament. He used this exact a lot at a MLG a month or two ago.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On August 21 2012 07:18 xrapture wrote:
Don't know why people are saying MVP created this build. Puma is the first person to ever use it in a tournament. He used this exact a lot at a MLG a month or two ago.
Probably because MVP did it so consistently, all throughout a tournament, very successfully. And then Engines post brought more attention to it. Anyways, it's time to move past the fact that MVP didn't create the build, or wasn't the first to use it in a tournament. It has been discussed to it's conclusion.
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On August 21 2012 01:20 Shartugal wrote:
This was probably common knowledge to everybody but me, but it wasn't until this IEM I realized that if you get thors before any tanks, you'll be able to deal with mutas really well, unless it's an actual muta rush you're facing.
which should be no problem to scout, since there's no way you won't notice 4 gas up with your banshees/hellions harassing
On August 21 2012 00:29 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 00:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On August 21 2012 00:03 monkybone wrote:On August 20 2012 10:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Am I mistaken or is this simply 1 Rax Expand into Reactor Hellion + Banshee, into third base, into add 2 more factories and 2 more armories?
This isn't anything new, why did Engine pick now to comment on this if it's so interesting? He's a GSL caster right? Did he not watch/remember Gumiho doing this way back vs Nestea in a WCG qualifier? (And that may not have been the first time we saw it in a tournament) Just because it's well known to players, doesn't mean it's well known to the public. IEM was viewed by a much broader audience than a WCG qualifier, and engine might not even have seen that. In any case, it's probable that engine didn't just come up with his analysis on the spot, but rather have known of the intricacies of the build and now commenting on it since it's being used so extensively in a large tournament. I don't understand what there is to criticize about engines analysis. Makes sense, but I'm not criticizing the material in the analysis, rather questioning why he chose now to analyze this. I don't consider IEM that big, mostly maybe just because I don't feel interested in watching IEM usually, but if others perceive it to be big, then that would explain why engine is analyzing it now. If he wanted to make the public aware of this, I'm saying he could have done it earlier, so if he's doing it now, is it because he didn't feel like doing it earlier, or because there is something actually different from the way MVP does it, and the way others do it? If it's the latter (which should be true, since MVP I hear executed it very well), then I don't see the specifics of what makes MVP's style of this build different than let's say gumiho's. But if it's the former then I guess he just felt more impelled to make a tweet now since MVP has brought the build to the spotlight I guess. However, he did note that MVP makes more banshees than the "usual", which seems to be the only important difference, so perhaps it's a combination of both, but, (and maybe this is just the translation), it's sounding as if Engine is saying MVP is the first one to do this (in the tourny scene), while he's not. I think it might have to do with the fact the MVP used this build many times during IEM and had success with it. Obviously, many of the builds that pros shows in tournaments have been tested and refined a lot in their practice and team houses. The ideas itself might not even be from themselves but something they saw on ladder and just refined it. It is similar to Stephano's 200 max roach push vs protoss. He was not the first one to show it in a pro game. But he execution and the consistent success with it was beyond the other zergs at that moment. Thus it got coined as the Stephano build.
Makes sense, I guess I'll go with that :D
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Do you think this can be a good follow-up from a double starport play?
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When I saw Engine's commentary fully translated on twitter, I was floored.
It surprised me how well Engine, and presumably, other Korean commentators knew the game and were willing to dive into the details. His knowledge and depth of the game reached a whole new level that I never experienced from any English commentators with the exception of Artosis.
And it was this level of depth of commentary that attracted me to Starcraft in the first place. Artosis and Tasteless were and still are excellent and I would love to see other commentators work harder to understand this game at the same level.
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On August 21 2012 00:55 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 07:18 RoboBob wrote:On August 20 2012 06:21 art0 wrote:
Am i the only One to notice that it was really the seeker missiles that made the difference in the end game battles? MVP landed some sick heat seekers which anhiliated the broodlords before they did any damage. TvZ isn't so muh about a specific build but how u trade as cost efficiently with the inevitable broodlords. MVP does not use any Ravens with this build. Basically MVP brought two TvZ builds to this tournament. The first was this mech build, which he used on smaller maps like Ohana and Cloud Kingdom. The second was a standard double ebay MMMTV early and mid game, but transitioning into nonstandard PF+Viking+Raven+BC in the lategame. Which he used on larger maps like Antiga, Metropolis, Atlantis Spaceship, and Daybreak. Although he didn't always get to to the Sky Terran part depending upon how agressive the Zerg played. This is probably where you're thinking about the seeker missiles. MVP did mix in some 2 Rax Bunker rush cheese. And one game he did a fast BFH drop into mech. But something like 90% of his TvZ games was one of the two above builds. RoboBob I talked with you about this on Reddit. He uses Ravens with this build, at least sometimes, and probably always eventually. The games he didn't were the ones he did massive damage with Hellions/Banshees and so he had a huge lead. He did not need to play defensively, he just went for a maxed out Mech push FTW. He gets a Raven in his game vs NesTea on Cloud Kingdom quite early. He also gets 4-5 of them vs Vortix on the game on Ohana. I won't pretend to know MVP's thought process for when he gets Ravens and when not, but he certainly does get them with this build.
In MVP vs Nestea on Cloud Kingdom, MVP scanned Nestea's main at 12:34. He saw that the Roach Warren researching something. In this case it was Roach speed which was like 95% complete, but it could have easily been a fast Roach burrow move. So he threw down 3 turrets and built a Raven to cover his detection. This was the only game where he made that one Raven adjustment, so I think it was unique that single timing. In any case the Raven literally did nothing but die to Corruptors at the 15 minute mark, and it was never rebuilt.
But you are correct about the Ravens on Ohana, thanks for pointing that out. He gets 4 Ravens with Corvid Reactor and Seeker Missile, and rebuilds them later after losing them. I'm not sure why MVP made that investment. Maybe it was the fact that the Zerg responded with Muta/Ling into Hive instead of Roach/Infestor like in most of the other game? I guess Ravens over Banshees kinda makes sense in that scenario, because Banshees aren't very good against either Muta or Ling. But then again, it seems like most of the time when the Zerg went full air like that he just massed Vikings and kited instead of bothering with Ravens. I wonder what made that game different.
In any case I wasn't very impressed by the Ravens in that game. They threw down some PDDs but they didn't seem to help much because his Viking count was low all game long game long until gg. There was one seeker missile, but it only hit a single BL. In fact the AOE killed one of MVP's hellions and took another one to half health.
I'd be interested in hearing other people's thoughts on that game.
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On August 21 2012 07:18 xrapture wrote:
Don't know why people are saying MVP created this build. Puma is the first person to ever use it in a tournament. He used this exact a lot at a MLG a month or two ago.
Builds are named after the player who popularizes it, not the person who first uses it in a televised match. Builds are not inventions or scientific discoveries, they are metagame shifts. The idea of someone "owning" double armory Mech+Banshee+Viking is as silly as the idea of someone "owning" 4 Hatch Infestor/Corruptor/Broodlord.
For example, the "Bisu build" back in BW did not, in fact, originate from Bisu. Its just that he made it popular by successfully toppling Savior (arguably the best bonjwa in SC history) with it in his prime. People had played Corsair/DT ever since BW release, just not to the same level of success and mastery that Bisu did.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On August 21 2012 11:54 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 00:55 ZjiublingZ wrote:On August 20 2012 07:18 RoboBob wrote:On August 20 2012 06:21 art0 wrote:
Am i the only One to notice that it was really the seeker missiles that made the difference in the end game battles? MVP landed some sick heat seekers which anhiliated the broodlords before they did any damage. TvZ isn't so muh about a specific build but how u trade as cost efficiently with the inevitable broodlords. MVP does not use any Ravens with this build. Basically MVP brought two TvZ builds to this tournament. The first was this mech build, which he used on smaller maps like Ohana and Cloud Kingdom. The second was a standard double ebay MMMTV early and mid game, but transitioning into nonstandard PF+Viking+Raven+BC in the lategame. Which he used on larger maps like Antiga, Metropolis, Atlantis Spaceship, and Daybreak. Although he didn't always get to to the Sky Terran part depending upon how agressive the Zerg played. This is probably where you're thinking about the seeker missiles. MVP did mix in some 2 Rax Bunker rush cheese. And one game he did a fast BFH drop into mech. But something like 90% of his TvZ games was one of the two above builds. RoboBob I talked with you about this on Reddit. He uses Ravens with this build, at least sometimes, and probably always eventually. The games he didn't were the ones he did massive damage with Hellions/Banshees and so he had a huge lead. He did not need to play defensively, he just went for a maxed out Mech push FTW. He gets a Raven in his game vs NesTea on Cloud Kingdom quite early. He also gets 4-5 of them vs Vortix on the game on Ohana. I won't pretend to know MVP's thought process for when he gets Ravens and when not, but he certainly does get them with this build. In MVP vs Nestea on Cloud Kingdom, MVP scanned Nestea's main at 12:34. He saw that the Roach Warren researching something. In this case it was Roach speed which was like 95% complete, but it could have easily been a fast Roach burrow move. So he threw down 3 turrets and built a Raven to cover his detection. This was the only game where he made that one Raven adjustment, so I think it was unique that single timing. In any case the Raven literally did nothing but die to Corruptors at the 15 minute mark, and it was never rebuilt. But you are correct about the Ravens on Ohana, thanks for pointing that out. He gets 4 Ravens with Corvid Reactor and Seeker Missile, and rebuilds them later after losing them. I'm not sure why MVP made that investment. Maybe it was the fact that the Zerg responded with Muta/Ling into Hive instead of Roach/Infestor like in most of the other game? I guess Ravens over Banshees kinda makes sense in that scenario, because Banshees aren't very good against either Muta or Ling. But then again, it seems like most of the time when the Zerg went full air like that he just massed Vikings and kited instead of bothering with Ravens. I wonder what made that game different. In any case I wasn't very impressed by the Ravens in that game. They threw down some PDDs but they didn't seem to help much because his Viking count was low all game long game long until gg. There was one seeker missile, but it only hit a single BL. In fact the AOE killed one of MVP's hellions and took another one to half health. I'd be interested in hearing other people's thoughts on that game.
Good pickup on the Cloud Kingdom game, I didn't catch that. For Ohana, I agree with your reasoning as to why he gets the Raven. Banshees are really a waste of gas when the opponent has Muta/Ling primarily. Also, if you'll notice, he doesn't ever add on his extra 2 Facts that he usually does once he gets 3 bases up and running. Instead he goes for double Starport with Raven's plus upgrades. I believe, and it's just a hunch, he was hard-countering Vortixx and sort of banking on him going for Brood Lords (because he starts Raven and Corvid Reactor a few seconds before he even scans for the Hive).
I thought the Raven's were useful with the PDD's (it blocks Brood Lord and Queen shots too at least), and the Seeker Missiles forced some of Vortix's units to stop attacking for a moment but then he proceeded to lose all 4 of them to just poor control, and then he rallied the 5th one into the battle. They would have been very useful later on with the growing Viking count and Vortixx's constant use of Queens with his push and lack of Infestors. And that moment when MVP moves down to attack the giant clump of morphing Brood Lords could have gone so much better if he only had to move his Ravens out and not his Mech army, that moment very nearly cost him the game. And I really believe had Vortixx worked in an Ultra Tech switch he could have won. MVP wins the game with literally 1 Thor just popping out of a Factory, only air units in battle. His fact count was 3 the entire game. Had MVP kept the Ravens alive he could have saved a lot of money on Vikings and not been so vulnerable to a tech switch.
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^ i believe the part about pdd blocking brood lord shots has been patched long ago ..correct me if i'm wrong.
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Also just to correct someone, Puma is not the first one to use this build, or at least the first time the build was used was NOT as recent as 1-2 months ago, but at least a year ago.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On August 21 2012 13:34 DizzySheep wrote:
^ i believe the part about pdd blocking brood lord shots has been patched long ago ..correct me if i'm wrong.
It no longer blocks broodlings, still blocks the initial damage.
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On August 21 2012 14:01 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 13:34 DizzySheep wrote:
^ i believe the part about pdd blocking brood lord shots has been patched long ago ..correct me if i'm wrong. It no longer blocks broodlings, still blocks the initial damage.
it doesn't block anything since the fix months ago. . . try it on an unit test map if you aren't sure
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Mvp is not the first to use this build but he used it to great success. Most of players who used to use this build just used it as one of their many builds but still have bio/tank as their main build but at IEM Mvp used this build as his main strat. In fact he used this strat in almost all of his games that were not on a huge maps.
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On August 21 2012 02:01 VPCursed wrote:
I think alot of people are miss-understanding the build. If you watch the games where mvp does this opener he ends up doing a'lot of damage very early on and it is one of the only ways really for mech to work in this MU at the moment. If damage isn't done early, you can never get a proper composition to hit a timing and damage the opponent before broods or keep them from mass expanding. If the zerg prepares and defends properly they will end up ahead against this opener by just taking more expansions and using roach play to tech, it is far from impossible for zerg to defend against a'lot of banshees and hellions while taking a 4th..
MVP is investing a'lot early on to maximize his damage.. he only starts making units that are really apart of his core composition around the 11-12 minute mark ( where thors + tanks start ) So the entire premise is really based around doing a shit ton of damage... this will be really hard to accomplish once zergs recognize the build and prepare. So i highly suggest you guys not to over-look the subtle things that made this build good like the meta-game, current zerg trends and what not... I really don't think mvp would even feel comfortable going in with this build in a league.. unless he just wanted to throw it in 1 game to mix the zerg up. I can't see this ever being a solid opening with it having nearly complete reliance on your ability to kill drones in the early stages.
That's sort of true and it's not. If you're going CC first with a well timed 3rd then the amount of damage you have to do depends on two factors, how fast the Zerg is droning and how much you want to invest into harassment.
If you cut at just 6 hellions and 1 single uncloaked banshee you can secure 6 gas very quickly and start double armouries a shitload faster then if you just keep making and throwing in hellions and cloak banshees. You can pressure his front and keep his creep and queen count down, maybe even kill a few drones here and there and keep your defences up with a tiny force of units. And if the zerg is just doing a 2 base tech or timing build then you're not trying to get a lot of harassment in early isn't really your goal, you're more trying to get into midgame in a stronger position through greed and solid defence.
If he goes 3 hatch before pool I like to start the 3rd CC before the factory but play very defensively (the build is way too explosive with speedlings to risk being aggressive which is frustrating). If he goes for a relatively quick 3rd after pool then... I dunno it kind of depends.
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ppl making 6-7 banshees for mech has been the standard for a while...
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I've been using this build every game versus Zerg. It's amazing. Hellions and Banshees dominate the map and even Mutalisks are easy to handle. It really comes down to whether or not Zerg goes for a fast third. In which case, I just delay my third in favor of faster Thors. Of course, if you're going bio, you don't need to delay your third at all.
If it turns out he's going for a Roach attack instead, I already have 3+ Banshees in the map's middle. The build is very versatile and has all transitions protected. The only risk is from the early to mid game right after taking the second base. The first Banshee is usually out in time to defend 2 base Roach aggression, but the amount of damage taken varies. Sometimes it's too much, sometimes it's nothing at all.
And finally, the real attraction of this build is the late game Mechanical play with Raven's slowly building up. The transition is gradual, thus safe and quick enough to meet the Brood Lord tech. Even then, upgraded Thors can deal with Brood Lord's smile-inducingly well. If he gets Ultras instead, I just go for the air upgrades and get Banshees. MOAR THORS. 3/3 is amazing. This build is a God send.
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My experiences with the build...
First your going CC first so pray they don't 6-10 pool, of course. This has happened to us all, I'm sure.
Second, ultra fast mutalisks will kill you if you don't respond. Fuckers that hatch as early as 8:00. Fortunately it's a sort of easy read, scv scout really quick gas and if no fast speed or roaches then it has to be fast lair. The other concern is dealing with the other really fast timings, like ~20-23 drone roach or ling/bane timings that can bust through a bunker really quickly.
If he takes his 3rd before 6 mins that means no gas. If after then he has to have gas for speedlings and lair and upgrades. Harassment gets really tricky at this point so consider just stopping hellions at 4-6 and only 1 (uncloaked) banshee for defence or poking around his main and just focusing on 3rd and infrastructure. This is a good time for him to try and slip lings into an SCV line so be a bit map aware.
If he goes 3 hatch before pool go 3 CC before factory and get ready to explode! I also prefer to play a little cautious against 3h before pool when he's also trying to get speed out quickly. A zerg with 3 hatch and speed can very suddenly switch into hyperaggressive ling/bane or some shit and you can very quickly lose to it. And remember to not get too carried away with harassment that you have nothing out when his mutalisks show up.
Midgame is the trickiest part of the matchup because you need to play this part reactively and you need to not fuck up your positioning or you're dead. Zerg have 2 options vs Mech once they've scouted it:
1) Lair tech aggression. Roach drops, mass roach runaround, mutalisks and muta-roach (super fucking amazing vs thor/hellion/banshee, you NEED tanks to beat this), something tricky with infestors and it all comes in varying amounts. This requires you to defend for long enough until he abandons it and moves into hive at which point you must destroy him. Just calmly take bases, kill zergs as efficiently as you can, get 3/3 and keep scanning his hive for when he's going to transition and when he's about to, destroy him. Take care to leave tanks and walls and turrets about for the almost inevitable roach counters, as 3 attack tanks do horrible things to roaches.
2) Fast hive, infestor stall and broods. This is very difficult to play against since it's very easy to turtle yourself to death against it. A lot of map awareness is required here. A really sharply timed 2/2 hellion/tank/banshee push with a single raven is probably the best counter to it, you can't fight broods unless you're racing to fast 4 base and mass starport.
With mech I find that you need to do a lot of fighting before broodlords come out. The best position to be in is one where the Zergs greater spire just finishes and he's only got 2 bases left because you pushed and killed him. It takes a lot of timing and game sense and scouting to master this but it's critical to good mech play imo.
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On August 23 2012 10:48 iaguz wrote:
Second, ultra fast mutalisks will kill you if you don't respond. Fuckers that hatch as early as 8:00.
Not scary at all, in my opinion. If you're doing it right, you'll kill someone doing that with Hellion/Banshee without bigger problems.
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so guys, from this thread it seems banshees are the key to mech in tvz.
My question is, is banshee the key to mech tvz ONLY? or mech vs tvx in general? TvT and TvP?
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On August 21 2012 07:18 xrapture wrote:
Don't know why people are saying MVP created this build. Puma is the first person to ever use it in a tournament. He used this exact a lot at a MLG a month or two ago.
my post didn't go through...
Puma is not the first person ever to use it in a broadcasted tournament, unless he or someone else has used this build before the WCG Korea Qualifiers in 2011. This build is pretty old.
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On August 24 2012 14:25 dynwar7 wrote:
so guys, from this thread it seems banshees are the key to mech in tvz.
My question is, is banshee the key to mech tvz ONLY? or mech vs tvx in general? TvT and TvP?
TvT you don't need banshee necessarily in the early game. You can either open cloak banshee to do damage or get vikings to defend against cloak banshee opening and get ahead in air dominance. Comes down to good banshee defence.
From the TvP mech examples I've seen and used that had greatest success, banshees also seemed to be pretty key as it forces Protoss to invest more in anti-air (usually in the form of stalkers) and stay in their base to defend, rather than hitting timings that can kill mech early on.
On August 24 2012 15:03 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 07:18 xrapture wrote:
Don't know why people are saying MVP created this build. Puma is the first person to ever use it in a tournament. He used this exact a lot at a MLG a month or two ago. my post didn't go through... Puma is not the first person ever to use it in a broadcasted tournament, unless he or someone else has used this build before the WCG Korea Qualifiers in 2011. This build is pretty old.
Getting more than 2-3 banshees is old? Do you have links to VODs? o.o
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On August 24 2012 14:25 dynwar7 wrote:
so guys, from this thread it seems banshees are the key to mech in tvz.
My question is, is banshee the key to mech tvz ONLY? or mech vs tvx in general? TvT and TvP?
Banshees have always been good in mech TvT once you can take air dominance. 2 banshees can pretty much force your opponent to unsiege their entire siege line (which is huge in TvT). As for TvP, banshees don't do was well after the early game due to observers and blink stalkers. It is too easy to have your banshees picked off.
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On August 24 2012 15:20 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 14:25 dynwar7 wrote:
so guys, from this thread it seems banshees are the key to mech in tvz.
My question is, is banshee the key to mech tvz ONLY? or mech vs tvx in general? TvT and TvP? Banshees have always been good in mech TvT once you can take air dominance. 2 banshees can pretty much force your opponent to unsiege their entire siege line (which is huge in TvT). As for TvP, banshees don't do was well after the early game due to observers and blink stalkers. It is too easy to have your banshees picked off.
I probably shouldn't be speaking really (I don't have much credibility), but as far as banshees in TvP go, it seems to me it depends on two factors: 1) your micro, and 2) whether it will dawn upon your opponent "to just go and kill you" (Day9) and if he can actually do that if he wants to (and if your best defence is the shock or lack of thought of your opponent, then the strategy will only carry you so far). I used banshee shenanigans to cover up battlecruiser tech, basically, mass banshees justified a lot of ports and upgrades, it was only a production switch, not a tech switch, to get a decent number of cattlebruisers when you had enough econ to sustain decent BC production (IMHO 3 bases and already at least 1/1 but preferably 2/2 air upgrades). With 3/3 and good use of Yamato, it wasn't that bad. But BCs were still cost-inefficient and I gave up really (it's just too easy to get army after army of a standard, cheaper composition for your opponent, let alone a micro-heavy Toss with blink stalkers). A banshee/viking composition can actually put some hurting on the Toss (even to the point of uncloacked a-move sometimes) but again, you need to outplay him a lot to do that in the first place (as illustrated by your continued survival without much of a ground army before you're forced to reveal your air). Which generally suggests that you should be able to defeat him in a standard game or basically any game anyway because of skill difference. I've actually never really tried Terran air in TvZ, even though it works better there than in any other matchup, supposedly (except if you get caught by slightly more mutas than you can defeat right then and there, then you just can't escape because Terran air is so slow, meaning you die... but otherwise air is like teh gold vs Zerg). It somehow never felt right for any situation I've been in and I've never really developed a situation on purpose. Except maybe occasional breakthroughs against a powerful lategame Zerg where BCs were the logical thing to do.
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there where a lot of patchzergs at the IEM and i think MVP tryed to force them out of their comfort zone, because as soon as it comes to unusal games this patchzergs maybe haven t practiced that much against, it puts MVP in a good position because he has so much more experience, knowledge, gamesense and better decision making......so the more unusual the game gets, the better for MVP, and that was what he tryed to archieve with mixing in mechplay
we all know that mech builds aren t that bad in tvz and it never completely died, there are still some guys who use if very frequently like Goody, MKP and so on, but i wouldn t handle it as some kind of revolutionary build or something
as well i think while the guide did point some interesting things out it is by far not a "very deep analysis"
still good work from OP, thx for the translation
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EPT
