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if you havent heard Engine's in depth analysis of other games
i strongly suggest that you do so. this guy is a much better than you are when it comes to analysing builds.
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what? he could be the best analyzer in the entire world for all I care. He can still be wrong. Coming from a player who has had experience with the build in pro level play for over 6 months, i'm far more likely to place my trust in LastShadow than Engine.
Ive seen so many times of him stream and he loses to mid-high masters on korean server. I actually have friends who faced
(not pros) last shadow on ladder and they all said he is nowhere near as good as pro. Also Engine is mid~high masters
on random, he commentates most of the top gsl code s matches and he has been doing this shit for a long time. LS getting
into gm on korean server was later revealed by Major who stated that ls pays other "pro" level players to get his account
into gm so that people would see it and think hes good enough to make pro. I dunno if youre his fan or not but ive seen him
constantly bash other established members of the community and say cocky shit like "he doenst know how to play"
whereas he has produced zero results while living in korea.
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On August 20 2012 14:52 mongmong wrote:Show nested quote +if you havent heard Engine's in depth analysis of other games
i strongly suggest that you do so. this guy is a much better than you are when it comes to analysing builds.
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what? he could be the best analyzer in the entire world for all I care. He can still be wrong. Coming from a player who has had experience with the build in pro level play for over 6 months, i'm far more likely to place my trust in LastShadow than Engine. Ive seen so many times of him stream and he loses to mid-high masters on korean server. I actually have friends who faced (not pros) last shadow on ladder and they all said he is nowhere near as good as pro. Also Engine is mid~high masters on random, he commentates most of the top gsl code s matches and he has been doing this shit for a long time. LS getting into gm on korean server was later revealed by Major who stated that ls pays other "pro" level players to get his account into gm so that people would see it and think hes good enough to make pro. I dunno if youre his fan or not but ive seen him constantly bash other established members of the community and say cocky shit like "he doenst know how to play" whereas he has produced zero results while living in korea.
Na not really a fan and I wasn't aware of what major said. Even so, at this point my faith is still in LastShadow.
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@FataLe
yep sure i dont care where you have your faith in
but just to let you know that ls is no pro level player (so are other so called foreign pro gamers who has zero results)
+the fact that youve never heard engine commentate
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Getting the impression that engine is KR Day 9 or Artosis. Which sounds cool.
There's no reason to shit on LastShadow here he hasn't done anything wrong (well unless you hate hipster nerds so goddamn much but hey let's face it if you were in LS's position and you see this thread you'd want to yell at it too!)
MVP's mech build is just a good mech build. I wouldn't say it's revolutionary because most of it is simple enough. Make hellions, make banshees, make 3 cc's then 2 armouries then factories and so on. Super basic shit, we've been doing this since queen range because how else do you TvZ. The main thing that I think is interesting is the additional banshees, much like what engine points out. They make you a ton safer against lair tech aggression (excluding mutalisks) and if the zerg has no mutalisks then they are going to have a fun time against 5-6 spread out banshees just shooting everything down. It takes a lot of fungal energy to get rid of that many banshees.
The main thing about MVP's mech play is that mech is an extremely demanding style in terms of the amount of decisions that have to be made. What to make and when. When to expand, when to attack, how to do that early damage with hellions and banshees, exactly how many of each unit. It's extremely simple to make a wrong decision or two and suddenly you're really really behind with this stupid cumbersome army that doesn't do anything useful. I've studied a lot of MVP's play in this tournament, not just his mech TvZ, and there are so many subtleties that go into his play that you can only barely see if you look really hard for them. He really is a genius at this game.
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On August 20 2012 15:00 FataLe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 14:52 mongmong wrote:if you havent heard Engine's in depth analysis of other games
i strongly suggest that you do so. this guy is a much better than you are when it comes to analysing builds.
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what? he could be the best analyzer in the entire world for all I care. He can still be wrong. Coming from a player who has had experience with the build in pro level play for over 6 months, i'm far more likely to place my trust in LastShadow than Engine. Ive seen so many times of him stream and he loses to mid-high masters on korean server. I actually have friends who faced (not pros) last shadow on ladder and they all said he is nowhere near as good as pro. Also Engine is mid~high masters on random, he commentates most of the top gsl code s matches and he has been doing this shit for a long time. LS getting into gm on korean server was later revealed by Major who stated that ls pays other "pro" level players to get his account into gm so that people would see it and think hes good enough to make pro. I dunno if youre his fan or not but ive seen him constantly bash other established members of the community and say cocky shit like "he doenst know how to play" whereas he has produced zero results while living in korea. Na not really a fan and I wasn't aware of what major said. Even so, at this point my faith is still in LastShadow.
engine is 1 of the best korean analytical casters in the world, LS is smart but probably not as smart, as engine is equally as good.
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On August 20 2012 14:33 Clefairy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 13:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On August 20 2012 13:43 Krystal wrote:
Some people need to stop pretending valid points aren't valid just because they have some grudge against the person who states them. What Last Shadow said is entirely correct: This idea is nothing New, top players have understood the importance of Banshee's in Mech for ages. Sure, it might be new to see this style dominating in tournament setting, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been around for a long time. People should listen to logic rather then assuming people like LastShadow are wrong just because they personally don't like his personality.
Agreed :D MVP certainly is not the only player to have made more than 1-4 banshees, nor continually make them throughout the game. Experienced mechers should understand how well the banshee synergizes with mech. Maybe Engine just wanted to post on MVP's play since he decided now that he would like to help popularize mech play or didn't think of it in the past. But if he's doing it because he feels that MVP actually has a distinctive style...? Well, if the latter is his purpose, either he has missed all the other people doing such build(s), or he needs to comment on much more specific things on exactly how MVP's style of Hellion/banshee-into-third-into-2-more-fact-into-double-armory is both unique and superior to others who have used the same build in the past. MVP first did this build around 2 months ago and Engine said he wanted to cast it then but I think it was on OSL so he didn't get the chance. Then MVP never used the build when Engine was casting his games, so he got fed up of waiting for his chance and just took to Twitter 2 months later.
Ah, thanks for filling me in!
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Basically what the build is stating is to mix in more banshees instead of tanks or thors? This allows you to help with some of the drops/roach-ling pushes from zerg?
Interesting stuff, so much gas but I think on 3 bases and conservative use of banshees (harass, but don't let them die. slow pushes with them to prevent mutalisk snipings) you could get a good composition of thor/banshee/hellion with 3-4 tanks.
Mech is so insanely expensive though >< Really needs some non-gas intensive units that actually can compete with roaches even if it's not late-game viable.
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Baltimore, USA22258 Posts
Keep the discussion on topic please.
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This build isn't new at all, I've been doing it in my tvzs for months now and I orginally got it from marine king in one of tthe winter arena replays. Lot of people do this build. From watching replays of Major, he too adds on more banshees to deal more dps and deal with roaches better. All I know is MvP executes it so well.
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On August 21 2012 00:03 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 10:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Am I mistaken or is this simply 1 Rax Expand into Reactor Hellion + Banshee, into third base, into add 2 more factories and 2 more armories?
This isn't anything new, why did Engine pick now to comment on this if it's so interesting? He's a GSL caster right? Did he not watch/remember Gumiho doing this way back vs Nestea in a WCG qualifier? (And that may not have been the first time we saw it in a tournament) Just because it's well known to players, doesn't mean it's well known to the public. IEM was viewed by a much broader audience than a WCG qualifier, and engine might not even have seen that. In any case, it's probable that engine didn't just come up with his analysis on the spot, but rather have known of the intricacies of the build and now commenting on it since it's being used so extensively in a large tournament. I don't understand what there is to criticize about engines analysis.
Makes sense, but I'm not criticizing the material in the analysis, rather questioning why he chose now to analyze this. I don't consider IEM that big, mostly maybe just because I don't feel interested in watching IEM usually, but if others perceive it to be big, then that would explain why engine is analyzing it now. If he wanted to make the public aware of this, I'm saying he could have done it earlier, so if he's doing it now, is it because he didn't feel like doing it earlier, or because there is something actually different from the way MVP does it, and the way others do it? If it's the latter (which should be true, since MVP I hear executed it very well), then I don't see the specifics of what makes MVP's style of this build different than let's say gumiho's. But if it's the former then I guess he just felt more impelled to make a tweet now since MVP has brought the build to the spotlight I guess. However, he did note that MVP makes more banshees than the "usual", which seems to be the only important difference, so perhaps it's a combination of both, but, (and maybe this is just the translation), it's sounding as if Engine is saying MVP is the first one to do this (in the tourny scene), while he's not.
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pffff
standard goody build!
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On August 20 2012 15:10 mongmong wrote:
@FataLe
yep sure i dont care where you have your faith in
but just to let you know that ls is no pro level player (so are other so called foreign pro gamers who has zero results)
+the fact that youve never heard engine commentate
I think you are too harsh now. With all these KeSPA and GSL players with all their smurfs there is now way you get into KR GM without being a top foreigner. Does not mean the rest are not progamers.
Anyway, do you guys think you need as much APM for Mvp style Mech-Air play as you do for Bio?
On August 20 2012 09:46 peragon wrote:
Wouldn't this still be weak against roach drops?
Because nobody does early Roach drops in TvZ nobody knows.
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On August 21 2012 00:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 00:03 monkybone wrote:On August 20 2012 10:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Am I mistaken or is this simply 1 Rax Expand into Reactor Hellion + Banshee, into third base, into add 2 more factories and 2 more armories?
This isn't anything new, why did Engine pick now to comment on this if it's so interesting? He's a GSL caster right? Did he not watch/remember Gumiho doing this way back vs Nestea in a WCG qualifier? (And that may not have been the first time we saw it in a tournament) Just because it's well known to players, doesn't mean it's well known to the public. IEM was viewed by a much broader audience than a WCG qualifier, and engine might not even have seen that. In any case, it's probable that engine didn't just come up with his analysis on the spot, but rather have known of the intricacies of the build and now commenting on it since it's being used so extensively in a large tournament. I don't understand what there is to criticize about engines analysis. Makes sense, but I'm not criticizing the material in the analysis, rather questioning why he chose now to analyze this. I don't consider IEM that big, mostly maybe just because I don't feel interested in watching IEM usually, but if others perceive it to be big, then that would explain why engine is analyzing it now. If he wanted to make the public aware of this, I'm saying he could have done it earlier, so if he's doing it now, is it because he didn't feel like doing it earlier, or because there is something actually different from the way MVP does it, and the way others do it? If it's the latter (which should be true, since MVP I hear executed it very well), then I don't see the specifics of what makes MVP's style of this build different than let's say gumiho's. But if it's the former then I guess he just felt more impelled to make a tweet now since MVP has brought the build to the spotlight I guess. However, he did note that MVP makes more banshees than the "usual", which seems to be the only important difference, so perhaps it's a combination of both, but, (and maybe this is just the translation), it's sounding as if Engine is saying MVP is the first one to do this (in the tourny scene), while he's not.
I think it might have to do with the fact the MVP used this build many times during IEM and had success with it. Obviously, many of the builds that pros shows in tournaments have been tested and refined a lot in their practice and team houses. The ideas itself might not even be from themselves but something they saw on ladder and just refined it. It is similar to Stephano's 200 max roach push vs protoss. He was not the first one to show it in a pro game. But he execution and the consistent success with it was beyond the other zergs at that moment. Thus it got coined as the Stephano build.
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On August 21 2012 00:20 Aunvilgod wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 15:10 mongmong wrote:
@FataLe
yep sure i dont care where you have your faith in
but just to let you know that ls is no pro level player (so are other so called foreign pro gamers who has zero results)
+the fact that youve never heard engine commentate I think you are too harsh now. With all these KeSPA and GSL players with all their smurfs there is now way you get into KR GM without being a top foreigner. Does not mean the rest are not progamers. Anyway, do you guys think you need as much APM for Mvp style Mech-Air play as you do for Bio? Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 09:46 peragon wrote:
Wouldn't this still be weak against roach drops? Because nobody does early Roach drops in TvZ nobody knows.
Nestea tried a roach drop on top of Mvp's army on CK, Mvp pulled all of his scvs to repair his army and smashed the drop, he did lose half his workers though. Mvp actually did end up winning.
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On August 20 2012 09:46 peragon wrote:
Wouldn't this still be weak against roach drops?
Yes, it is actually weak against any roach transition that you do not scout in time and switch to tanks. Both SuperNoVa and MVP were caught off guard in one of their games. However, the banshees give you a lot of map presence so you should have enough time to react. And the zerg would have to make a huge commitment doing a doom drop and have little chance of transition unless they do a lot of damage.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On August 20 2012 07:18 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 06:21 art0 wrote:
Am i the only One to notice that it was really the seeker missiles that made the difference in the end game battles? MVP landed some sick heat seekers which anhiliated the broodlords before they did any damage. TvZ isn't so muh about a specific build but how u trade as cost efficiently with the inevitable broodlords. MVP does not use any Ravens with this build. Basically MVP brought two TvZ builds to this tournament. The first was this mech build, which he used on smaller maps like Ohana and Cloud Kingdom. The second was a standard double ebay MMMTV early and mid game, but transitioning into nonstandard PF+Viking+Raven+BC in the lategame. Which he used on larger maps like Antiga, Metropolis, Atlantis Spaceship, and Daybreak. Although he didn't always get to to the Sky Terran part depending upon how agressive the Zerg played. This is probably where you're thinking about the seeker missiles. MVP did mix in some 2 Rax Bunker rush cheese. And one game he did a fast BFH drop into mech. But something like 90% of his TvZ games was one of the two above builds.
RoboBob I talked with you about this on Reddit. He uses Ravens with this build, at least sometimes, and probably always eventually. The games he didn't were the ones he did massive damage with Hellions/Banshees and so he had a huge lead. He did not need to play defensively, he just went for a maxed out Mech push FTW.
He gets a Raven in his game vs NesTea on Cloud Kingdom quite early. He also gets 4-5 of them vs Vortix on the game on Ohana. I won't pretend to know MVP's thought process for when he gets Ravens and when not, but he certainly does get them with this build.
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This was probably common knowledge to everybody but me, but it wasn't until this IEM I realized that if you get thors before any tanks, you'll be able to deal with mutas really well, unless it's an actual muta rush you're facing.
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anybody have a build order link for this? I want to practice it when I get home
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On August 21 2012 01:26 renaissanceMAN wrote:
anybody have a build order link for this? I want to practice it when I get home
quick notes I made when watching it were
1 rax fe opening:
10 supply
12 rax
15 oc
15 marine (3 total)
then as follows based on when can afford
2x refinery
supply depot
factory + reactor on rax (at this point if Z has gas i would recommend bunker tucked in by CC)
swap and start hellion production
starport + techlab on rax
banshee production starts
3rd CC
cloak
3rd refinery
2x armoury
4th refinery
1/1 vehicle weapons + armour
2x fac
I didn't continue from here, but you get techlabs on both facs straight away. start thor production first (can then chose to stay more on thors, tanks or mixture). get 2 more factories quite quickly while taking 5th + 6th gas. you can produce a raven or viking at some point, send viking around map for overlords, and take raven with your banshees and/or helions to clean up creep. Good point to push out is when 2/2 finishes.
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EPT
