EPT[G]NaNiwa's PvZ gateway expand into phoenix build - Page 4
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GT350
United States270 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On September 28 2012 11:21 R3demption wrote: Gateway expands will be the standard come Hots (Due to the Mothership Core). I've already started practicing this build because of this. Also Stargates will be even more relevant in Hots so I think Naniwa is ahead of the curve on this one. Planning a build out for HotS is a horrible, horrible idea. We don't know what units will be or will not be in that game. We don't know if the Mothership Core will actually still exist or if those abilities (key one being Recall) will go into other units/buildings for Protoss. The expansion beta doesn't have a genuine metagame because, even at higher levels, people are playing to try things out more than they are to win, so the build order you come up with could be very sloppy and still win games against experimental builds...but be tragically unrefined and lose hard to dedicated, actual builds. Can we just stick to WoL discussion, where it's already complicated enough trying to refine the plans to deal with gas/pool openings and how/when to take a third? | ||
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TzTz
Germany511 Posts
 Nice Guide. | ||
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Twiggs
United States600 Posts
On September 28 2012 17:18 ineversmile wrote: Planning a build out for HotS is a horrible, horrible idea. We don't know what units will be or will not be in that game. We don't know if the Mothership Core will actually still exist or if those abilities (key one being Recall) will go into other units/buildings for Protoss. The expansion beta doesn't have a genuine metagame because, even at higher levels, people are playing to try things out more than they are to win, so the build order you come up with could be very sloppy and still win games against experimental builds...but be tragically unrefined and lose hard to dedicated, actual builds. Can we just stick to WoL discussion, where it's already complicated enough trying to refine the plans to deal with gas/pool openings and how/when to take a third? Sure I guess. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On September 28 2012 18:56 Sated wrote: I much prefer NonY's 2 Gate Sentry FE -> Stargate Opening since it's a lot safer, and also since the transitions out of it are a lot more refined. Importantly, this opening also gives you a good timing at which you can kill the Zerg's third base if they attempt to take one quickly (5 Zealots and 3 Sentries attacking the third base at ~7:30), and I personally think it is really important for Gateway openings to be able to pressure Zerg opponents into making units they don't want to make and into expanding later than they otherwise would against a FFE since you won't have the economy to match them in a passive game. Can you elaborate about how the 2gate Sentry expo is safer? What is it safer against, in your opinion? To me, the only opening that makes me want to sentry expand is gas/pool, which you can still hold with 1 gate. The difference between being 'safe' and being 'safer' is a matter of spending more money on defense and being behind against eco play. If you 1gate expo, you have a stalker at 22 supply, a Nexus after stalker, and then 1-2 more stalkers. You can hunt overlords, take watchtowers, check the third, force a bunch of crappy slow lings, force spines, and even force a number of missed injects due to queens being out of position and/or using energy for other, more defensive abilities. That pressure happens long before the 7:30 mark, it costs way less money, it doesn't slow your tech at all, and it's not as big a commitment if your opponent thwarts the attack. In fact, the 7:30 mark is the time when you should be getting the Hell out of Dodge with the Stalker pressure, since speed commonly finishes just under 8 minutes when gas is taken reactively due to your gateway opener being scouted. And, the most important difference here: If you pressure with Stalkers that early and your opponent opened 15/16 pool/hatch (or vice versa), there isn't any chance he'll thwart your attack. It always does damage, even against a completely prepared opponent. Oh, you lost 3-4 drones to stalkers? Worthwhile attack. You lost a queen? Worthwhile attack. You had to cancel your third base or delay it completely? Worthwhile attack. You had to make a bunch of lings instead of drones? Worthwhile attack. You built a couple extra lings and a spine? Worthwhile attack. I completely agree with the concept of pressure, but I think you can get away with way more if you build Stalkers first, then build sentries later to coincide with the gas timing of your opponent. If you scout gas/pool, you can just transition into 2gate Sentry expo upon seeing the gas timing. You just go Stalker-->Nexus-->Sentry-->Pylon+2nd Gas-->2nd Gate on low ground to form that narrow wall-off at your main ramp, and you are safe from the ling and bling timings that way. Worst comes to worst, he overmakes lings and you have a higher worker count on one base, so you can just cancel the natural temporarily and then retake it when you build more of an army and push out...not a big deal. Bottomline: I feel like the way a 2gate Sentry expo should be used is as a reaction to scouting early gas from the zerg. Otherwise, you don't need the second gate or the early sentries at all. Only gas makes forcefields necessary. Granted, this is my opinion, but I'm up for a debate. That is the point of a strategy forum, after all...if I'm wrong, I would love to learn why--and improve my game understanding by doing so. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On September 29 2012 23:06 Sated wrote:The safety the Sentry-based expansion gives you is against aggressive gas-openings. For instance, I was actually 7 Roach Rushed twice yesterday (much to my surprise) and NaNiwa's build would've lost me the game. Other problems you could have are against openings where the opponent floods you with Speedlings very early on as you'll almost certainly lose your Nexus with only 1 Gateway worth of units, and against Baneling busts you're going to have a lot of problems without a substantial number of Sentries to hold your ramp with. Well, let's look at each timing, one at a time. I'm going to use this thread as my main source of timing information for what I'm unsure about, which is things like odd pool timings and roach rush variants, etc. A 7RR has 6 Roaches @4:43, 7th @4:50. Unless I'm mistaken, that means they finish before the 5 minute mark, but then they have to walk across the map. That's a lot longer of a walk for 2.25 speed units than it was when we had far crappier maps on ladder. If you think about how long it takes to send a group of zealots, stimless bio, or off-creep hydras across Daybreak/Cloud Kingdom, if you just check the front of their base you'll probably see the roaches leave in time to react. And if you're already sitting on 2 stalkers with a third or a sentry in production, you should be able to go out on the map and kite the roaches with your stalkers before going back up your natural ramp and potentially setting a trap with a forcefield. Then you're dealing with 3 or 4 Roaches, not 7. 7 Roaches is a dangerous group of harassment units. 3 or 4 Roaches? You can kite those to death with 3 stalkers if you're smart and you play the terrain to your advantage. At worst? He still has 5 full-health roaches because you couldn't set a trap, so you just pull some probes, surround them, and trade maybe 3 or 4 probes for his army and maintain a worker lead while you're ahead in expanding. It's not like he can afford speed...he did a 7RR. He's broke. A ling follow-up means slow lings, which just suck against gateway units. Speedling openings vary. The time from start of gas to finished speed is 3:15, so if you scout the timing at any point from start of gas to checking how much has been harvested (and the number of drones on gas when you check), you can very easily estimate a speed timing. All you have to do is have a solid barricade set up by the time speed finishes, so you can block the ramp to your main and make sure lings don't flood in. It doesn't matter where you hold your ramp, so long as you make sure it's airtight. I have demonstrated that you can hold the bottom of your main ramp with a pylon and any generic building, with one unit blocking the gap on hold position. On a tournament map with the sunken depot, this is obviously more complicated--but still doable. With a 14/14, the speed should finish somewhere between 5:15 and 5:30, so you have lots of time to get that wall up before speed hits. The main thing here is having a preconceived idea of what your anti-speedling wall looks like on each map, so when you scout gas you don't have to start the trial-and-error emergency wall process only to find that there's a gap or you don't have the money to build what you want, etc. Then there's baneling busts. Off of essentially 1-base economy from the zerg, if there are banelings, there isn't any money for roaches. So it's either speed or no-speed. No speed means the lings themselves aren't actually a threat to stalkers, so by just building stalkers and not letting banelings blow up on a group of workers, you only really care about the lings...which you should be able to defend with stalkers+probe micro. This is why usually baneling busts work in tandem with speedlings, since you bust open some part of the wall and let the ants pour in quickly. This also means that you know the following has to happen: There's a 14/14 or even earlier gas timing, you know speed is generally sometime after the 5 minute mark, and if you can scout his gas late enough then seeing guys on gas after 100 for speed is a big indicator that he's making other units. Long story short: You're defending a speedling attack, but now you just need to make sure your wall-off doesn't lose to banelings. You can do this by using the Pylon+Gate (or whatever other random building you want) walling off the low ground ramp with a stalker blocking it, then have a sentry behind on the ramp. Bane busts usually involve around 6 banes and 14 lings at your door at 5:20, so you just want to block your ramp, force him to bane bust the pylon, then use a forcefield to keep him from coming upstairs. Then you either use a second forcefield and delay the lings further, or you go onto the next plan: walling off again. You can do this by camping your ramp carefully with some units on hold position, then building another wall on top of the ramp. The next wall doesn't have to hold against more banelings because it takes a minute and a half to get 6 more banelings off of 1 gas, and that's just to morph them...which also takes time. By the time a second wave of banes would hit you, you have warpgate tech done with 0 boosts and you're halfway through cooldown, to give you an idea of where you stand positionally. I know there are also 3 Roach+Speedling all-ins, which hit at a similar time and with a similar power level to baneling busts, although the roaches give the bust a greater amount of reach and it presents a different type of challenge. I haven't honestly played much against this opening in a long time, so this needs to be figured out...but I think if you can stop baneling busts, you can stop this bust as well. Let's think of more all-ins to worry about, to dissect, and then to stop worrying about. Still, you're right to say that you can switch into a 2 Gate Sentry Expand based on scouting information. That's also a very viable option. The only problem with that is that the 2 Gate Sentry Expand delays scouting for a long time in order to hit the required timings properly (I usually scout after throwing down my Gateway, but NonY often doesn't scout until throwing down his second Pylon or even his Cybernetics Core), so if you're going to perform a 2 Gate Sentry Expand in an optimal manner then you have to more-or-less make that decision from the start of the game. I think that NonY is a very smart player but his opening and his general playstyle seems to be a lot more about playing out a build order than it does playing against an actual opponent. This game isn't solitaire, especially against zerg. That's why I think that it's best to play a pressure-based opening against zerg to keep him honest, but also to have specific preset defenses to fall back to when you see aggression on its way. And the only way you can get away with this is by going out there and getting the information. NonY's build delays its scouting a lot because it's so defensive, it doesn't matter if you scout an all-in coming because you'll deflect it regardless if you don't fall asleep. But it also doesn't mess with larva or overlords or queens until after the 7 minute mark, and if your opponent puts up a defense that deals with 5 sentries and a zealot moving out, your pressure doesn't do anything and you're pretty far behind. Considering that, I think that if it's at all possible to only reactively move to a sentry expand against speedling timings, then I would never 2gate Sentry expo if I could avoid it. And that's about where I stand. So if the timings aren't right for what he has been doing, then I want to find new timings. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Also, in which universe is NonY's build super defensive when he consistently moves out before 7 minutes with 5 zealots and 2 sentries? It's about as defensive (in terms of resource commitment and timing) to a 4gate +1 zealot pressure of FFE... | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On September 30 2012 01:02 Sated wrote: I think you're really trivialising the micro and game-sense required to defend those all-ins with this build. For example, it's definitely possible to kite Roaches across the map with Stalkers if that's all you have to do, but will you be able to hit all of the other timings at the same time? A lot of people won't be able to do that and I certainly wouldn't back myself to be able to do that. Good for you if your APM is that stellar, but mine isn't. When you see a Marine/SCV all-in come your way in PvT, it's your responsibility to kite those marines backwards to stall for time and weaken them a bit before they get to your base. If you have Stalkers out on the map and you see it coming, yet you don't actually try to kite them, it's your own fault. (I mean 'you' in a broader and less literal sense here, of course...nothing personal.) The same goes for kiting speedless Roaches, which move the same speed as Marines and have shorter range. Stutter-stepping stalkers is actually really simple because they shoot very slowly in comparison to most other ranged units, so I don't think this requires phenomenal micro. All it requires is that you babysit your units without botching macro. Moreover, it sounds like both your Speedling and Baneling defences rely on defending your main ramp. That's all well and good, but you're still going to lose your Nexus. Ideally, I wouldn't want to be losing my Nexus. If he commits to more than a dozen speedlings, you can afford to spend 100 minerals on a cancelled Nexus because his drone count will be garbage and you're fine on 1-base. The key is finding a way to break the speedling contain and re-expand, then figure out how to pressure him. This usually means getting a Void Ray to defend your natural and then pressuring him with air units if he drones up. But it also doesn't mess with larva or overlords or queens until after the 7 minute mark, and if your opponent puts up a defense that deals with 5 sentries and a zealot moving out, This is wrong, NonY's current build pushes out with 2 Sentries and 5 Zealots with 2 Sentries at home for defence. 5 Zealots can kill a lot of Zerglings if micro'd correctly, so it is nearly always cost-inefficient for the Zerg to defend against that poke if they tried to take a third base without Roaches. Not that this has much to do with the general point.[/quote] Oh, sorry, I had the numbers flipped. Still, I don't think that 5 Zealots and 2-3ish Sentries is a force dangerous enough that I would bend over backwards and not scout until after Core to hit that timing. I think you could do better than that, to be honest. You also dump a lot of gas into Sentries and and expo later with that build, so you're delaying both your expansion and your tech by playing safer. Yes, the Zealot/Sentry attack is fine, but I don't think it's anything to write home about. Does that put us a bit more on the same page? On September 30 2012 01:02 Teoita wrote: Are you honestly talking about Zerg one base (or insanely low econ in general) allins against a gate/cyber opening (and zerg onebasing in general)? In which universe are they still meaningful in any way shape or form at a reasonable level? We see 6-7pools from Zergs in GSL all the time, and we see Seed and some other high level Korean Protosses mix in gateway openers as well, in that match-up. It's not like high level Zergs don't cheese Protosses in tournaments; it's just that the early pool is a better cheese for a FFE-centered metagame. But if the gateway openers start showing up more, then what will zergs do? They'll go to gas cheeses instead, since gas openings are better against gateway openings. If Gateway first ever becomes really popular, then there will be a metagame shift and Protosses will have to deal with the imminent Zerg reaction of using earlier speed in a large percentage of games. Today, the 6pool. Tomorrow, gas builds. You can't go into tournaments and expect people not to cheese...that's just ridiculous. The question is how you deal with cheese when it comes. Right now, the gas openings are very rare--but occasionally, they happen. But if we do come to a point in the road when 13 gate is seeing a lot of high level play, then that's all going to change. What do we do in a few months when this happens? A while ago, every zerg on the block would go for a 12 minute max in PvZ and most of the time Protoss just fell apart to the attack. How much has that fallen off? Exactly. Also, in which universe is NonY's build super defensive when he consistently moves out before 7 minutes with 5 zealots and 2 sentries? It's about as defensive (in terms of resource commitment and timing) to a 4gate +1 zealot pressure of FFE... He moves out before 7, but the pressure hits after 7 and you blatantly show your hand as you move across the map with a bunch of 2.25 speed units. So the zerg has time to react because he'll see you from the moment you leave your base, and if he stalls you on the map for a few seconds then he can get defense up. I think the pressure move is fine, but it's pretty late and very simple to scout. If it had a warp prism built-in to the build or something else to make it less blatant, I think it would be more effective against zergs who pay attention, which are the zergs that concern me. And that opening is very defensive before that. You take a later Nexus than you need to, and you build multiple sentries regardless of what your opponent is doing. Due to both of these factors, your economy and tech are not what they could be against standard zerg openings where they take their gas reactively and speed hits somewhere just before 8 minutes. Of course, the sentry expo is safer against the gas/pool builds and Gas-trick Roach Rushes, but it's not safer against the economy builds. It's very defensive until that move-out, and if that move-out doesn't work then you're not in a happy position. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Any opening that doesn't get stalkers is going to be defensive early on for obvious reasons. That said, even if you do go fast stalker you can't do that much damage against someone competent. At best you force out 10 or so lings and a spine, unless he doesn't scout and is completely taken off guard. I'm not saying it's bad, just that it's not gamebreaking. Besides, you need a good amount of sentry energy for the vast majority of timing attacks or to hold a third, so there's a tradeoff there. Going fast stalker means it's far harder to put pressure on in the midgame like NonY does because you have less sentry energy available. Moving out at 7 minutes off gateway expand shows off your hand as much as doing zealot pressure and delaying taking your extra gasses. Yes, zerg should have a decent idea of what is coming at him, but he still needs a very specific reaction to at least come out even. No matter how you look at it, teching to a is slow off of a vast majority of gateway/cyber openings, stargate into expand or dt into expand being the notable exceptions. And even then, FFE gets its tech about 30-40 seconds later. If you don't go stargate into expand (or expand into stargate, whatever), your tech is slowed down with a TON of gateway first builds. Remember Losira's timing and how much it constricted protoss play when it first came out? | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On September 30 2012 02:33 Sated wrote: I think the overall theme here is that you like playing greedier and I like playing safer. For example, you speak about Stalker micro against Marine/SCV all-ins, but I usually open with a passive 2 Gate Fast Obs Expand or an aggressive 3 Gate Expand vs. Terran so I couldn't care less about that type of all-in. I suppose what I like are well-thought out styles that rarely require you to do something out of the way against an aggressive opponent, which is why I prefer NonY's build. I'm not going to bother engaging your points because you're not going to convince me that you're right and vice-versa. Well, I don't actually think there is a "right" here since it's all down to preference, but you get the idea; this is purely a stylistic issue. I respectfully disagree. I think that one opening is superior to the other, and after I find out which one is better through the use of science, I want to use that opening. Right now, I think that opening stalkers is better against everything except the gas aggression builds from the zerg. That's an opinion, but it's also a hypothesis. If the stalker opening can be developed to have specific responses to each of the various busts and rushes, then what does the sentry opening have as leverage? Nothing. It's worse against macro play, it's about the same against 6-8 pools, and it's only really better against early gas openings--but if it's proven that it's not better, then that makes it obsolete because there's just a better gateway opener if that's true. On September 30 2012 02:34 Teoita wrote: 6pool on ffe maps is a whole different animal than one base roach rushes or baneling busts WHEN SCOUTING A GATE/CYBER OPENING. I can't remember the last tournament game in which it happened. Planned cheese is planned cheese. If people actually ever go Gateway first in tournaments more than just to mix it up in a series, then zergs are going to respond with different cheeses. Put yourself in the zerg's shoes: You're playing a best of 3 and you're 1-1. The protoss opened 13 gate in both games. If you want to cheese and you know a little bit about dealing with gateway openers, what would you use? Probably not a 6pool, which is hardcountered by this guy's opening. No, you would rather open with gas if you want to be aggressive, which makes it the protosss's responsibility to be aware of how to handle gas-based aggression just as he would handle a 6pool or proxy hatch. It's not about the popularity of the opening, it's about why your opponent would use that opening and what kind of damage control you do to make up for it. And I did see a KESPA guy use a slow ling baneling bust on Cloud Kingdom about a couple of weeks ago on GOM TV. I don't remember who the players specifically were, but Khaldor and Wolf were casting and they were laughing about how ridiculous it was that the zerg totally baited the protoss into moving his sentry out of position with an overlord being sent into the main. That was a baneling bust against a FFE, and I believe it was in the WCS Korea series. I would look it up, but I don't have a GOM ticket at the moment. Any opening that doesn't get stalkers is going to be defensive early on for obvious reasons. That said, even if you do go fast stalker you can't do that much damage against someone competent. At best you force out 10 or so lings and a spine, unless he doesn't scout and is completely taken off guard. I'm not saying it's bad, just that it's not gamebreaking. Besides, you need a good amount of sentry energy for the vast majority of timing attacks or to hold a third, so there's a tradeoff there. Going fast stalker means it's far harder to put pressure on in the midgame like NonY does because you have less sentry energy available. Forcing 10 lings and a spine is extremely groundbreaking. That's like killing 6 drones. I'm happy with killing 3 or 4 drones, directly or indirectly. If I kill 3 drones and go home with my stalkers, when the inject's worth of new drones kicks in it puts him 3 drones behind when I'm at ~24 workers...instead of it being an even worker count. That's absolutely massive. This is also why every missed inject is like 4 less drones, so if you force the queen down from the main for 25 energy regen's worth of time or you force a creep tumor, that's 4 less drones each time. If you kill a queen? Jackpot. Less injects=less drones. And the fact that you're doing this with just 0-1 zealot and 2-3 stalkers...well, that's really, really early to be doing that much damage in a macro PvZ, and you're even getting great intel because you're right on his front door, and information is ripe for the picking. Moving out at 7 minutes off gateway expand shows off your hand as much as doing zealot pressure and delaying taking your extra gasses. Yes, zerg should have a decent idea of what is coming at him, but he still needs a very specific reaction to at least come out even. We live in an era of 7gate Immortal/Sentry all-ins and before that, we lived in an era of +1 Zealot 4gates after FFE. Zergs are well aware of how to handle both of those units. I think the pressure is fine, but I don't see it being so gamebreaking that you would choose this opening over the Stalker pressure opening. The timing isn't going to kill a zerg, it's just going to put pressure on and maybe cancel a third, putting you in a better position. That's all the stalker pressure is designed to do, too--it just happens earlier so the scale of damage is smaller. No matter how you look at it, teching to a is slow off of a vast majority of gateway/cyber openings, stargate into expand or dt into expand being the notable exceptions. And even then, FFE gets its tech about 30-40 seconds later. If you don't go stargate into expand (or expand into stargate, whatever), your tech is slowed down with a TON of gateway first builds. Remember Losira's timing and how much it constricted protoss play when it first came out? I've been talking about expand into stargate the entire time, which means both a faster Nexus and a faster Stargate than you would have with the NonY 2gate sentry build. That's better on two different levels. What does the NonY build have? More safety against fast gas zerg openings. Both builds have pokes to apply pressure when it's warranted, so that's also basically a wash. So the way I see it, if you can make 1gate Stalker expo safe against the gas openings, then it's strictly better to NonY's build. This isn't a personal preference thing, this isn't a style thing, this is a facts and numbers thing. If it can work, it's better. That's all that matters to me. | ||
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Gumbi
Ireland463 Posts
The build is Gateway, Nexus, Pylon at natural, Assim, Core, one Chrono on Core, build 2 Zealots, using 1 Chrono. This is where scouting comes into play. If the Zerg has/gets a gas for Ling speed, I immediately drop a Forge and queue a Stalker. I drop a Cannon and finish my wall-off with another Gate and a Pylon, with basic scouting I wing it from there. Vs a greedy Zerg who plays standard 3 Hatch no gas (it happens, current meta Zergs do it blindly if they end up scouting you last on Entombed, for example), I have several options. I can continue to Chrono my Core, stop Probe prod for 10 sec and drop 3 more Gates at my ramp and 4 Gate (I queue a Stalker in my first Gate AFTER dropping the 3 Gates I this version of the build; the Stalker finishes just before WG finishes. He can stroll across the map and aid my 4 Gate, or close off my wall with hold pos if I fear a Ling runby (situation dependant). The 4 Gate warps in units at 6 20 ish, so it's sick fast, all the while probing at home, dropping tech etc. It's quite macro/micro intensive, but rewarding when pulled off. The final, third, main variation of the build is this: I scout gas for Ling speed, but my opponent drops his/her third soon after. I can decide a few things. Make a Stalker immediately after 2 Zealots and just pressure with those units, forcing Lings (still slow by this time), and drop a Forge at home (after that do as I said earlier). I can also drop a Forge, then 2 Gates and do some 3 Gate pressure, establishing a Pylon with 2 Zealots and doing some damage. Versus early Pools, pull Probes and delay till Zealot is out, continue Chronoing Zealots, and with good Probe micro, you can even save your natural! Alternatively (if you played greedily and did Gate Nexus Pylon on a (smaller) 2 player map, and your opponent 6 Pools, the Lings will hit just as your Pylon finishes; this means you Zealot is VERY late), you can try this. Drop a Forge in your main, Chrono Zealots and fight with Probes, drop a Cannon in your min line. I like to use this method vs Zergs who smell blood and continue mass producing Lings, I lose my natural and Pylon, but with good Probe micro, I come out ahead (hopefully even worker count, but with a Forge and a Gateway, sometimes an Assim - every little helps  ).Hopefully this helps. I wrote this on my iPhone, so I apologise for any potential spelling errors (fu autocorrect!!! :D). Feel free to critique my builds, or comment, whatever. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On September 30 2012 07:39 Gumbi wrote: I'm a (near) high Master's Toss, maintaining rank 14ish this season. I've been doing Gateway expands exclusively for the past few weeks vs Zerg. It is a safe build. The only small coin flip I do is getting the Nexus before Pylon, which auto-loses to a 6 Pool on a 2 player map (or if they correctly guess where you are first time on a 4 player map). You have to gamble against something, but would you use this same gamble in tournaments where people scout out your games over the weekend and talk about your style? Or in a BoX series, would you just use this gamble sometimes and play safe during others? You can bet if you're holding a winning record, people will start countering your build if they can. The build is Gateway, Nexus, Pylon at natural, Assim, Core, one Chrono on Core, build 2 Zealots, using 1 Chrono. Seems like a Yuffe expand where you delay the Zealots for gas and an earlier Core. The Yuffe does the same thing, only delays gas by probably a minute or so to your timing, but has those 2 Zealots out earlier so it's completely safe against 6pools with exactly the same Nexus timing you have.Vs a greedy Zerg who plays standard 3 Hatch no gas (it happens, current meta Zergs do it blindly if they end up scouting you last on Entombed, for example), I have several options. I can continue to Chrono my Core, stop Probe prod for 10 sec and drop 3 more Gates at my ramp and 4 Gate (I queue a Stalker in my first Gate AFTER dropping the 3 Gates I this version of the build; the Stalker finishes just before WG finishes. He can stroll across the map and aid my 4 Gate, or close off my wall with hold pos if I fear a Ling runby (situation dependant). The 4 Gate warps in units at 6 20 ish, so it's sick fast, all the while probing at home, dropping tech etc. It's quite macro/micro intensive, but rewarding when pulled off. That's actually a late 4gate timing for opening 13 gate. If you use the build from this thread, not a cut-corners Yuffe, you can have the 4gate before 6 minutes with 3 boosts on probes. Sure, 6:20ish is faster than a FFE warpgate timing, but that's irrelevant because opening FFE completely changes the pressure a zerg has to expect, and also changes the unit count/configuration required to hold a second Nexus from busts. The final, third, main variation of the build is this: I scout gas for Ling speed, but my opponent drops his/her third soon after. I can decide a few things. Make a Stalker immediately after 2 Zealots and just pressure with those units, forcing Lings (still slow by this time), and drop a Forge at home (after that do as I said earlier). I can also drop a Forge, then 2 Gates and do some 3 Gate pressure, establishing a Pylon with 2 Zealots and doing some damage. Let's see...13-17 gate-Nexus into Pylon, Gas, Core with 2 boosted Zealots...that means your first stalker comes out when my third stalker would pop out, which is when I check the clock to make sure I get out in time before speed finishes. So you're way too late to beat the normal speed timing if they overlord scouted you opening without a Forge and then responded by getting speed reactively upon the scouting, about right after he got his hatch+pool going. These timings just don't add up, dude. Plus, where are your replays of this? Pics or it didn't happen. Versus early Pools, pull Probes and delay till Zealot is out, continue Chronoing Zealots, and with good Probe micro, you can even save your natural! Alternatively (if you played greedily and did Gate Nexus Pylon on a (smaller) 2 player map, and your opponent 6 Pools, the Lings will hit just as your Pylon finishes; this means you Zealot is VERY late), you can try this. Drop a Forge in your main, Chrono Zealots and fight with Probes, drop a Cannon in your min line. I like to use this method vs Zergs who smell blood and continue mass producing Lings, I lose my natural and Pylon, but with good Probe micro, I come out ahead (hopefully even worker count, but with a Forge and a Gateway, sometimes an Assim - every little helps ).First of all, I thought you were just punting games to 6pools, so if you can't hold them in the first place, then why are you talking about holding them now? Get some consistency here or people might think that you're full of shit. And second, this is overkill. If you open 13 gate and build a zealot as soon as you see lings rolling out across the map, you can pull probes for about 5-10 seconds to delay the lings and then the zealot pops out and the lings can't engage your workers anymore. Then you get a Stalker and boost it, and when that comes out you have control of your main base without needing probe pulls. All you have to do from there is check how much he's droned, check if he has gas or not, and then react accordingly. At no point in time do you need a forge and a cannon to hold a 6-10 pool if you're (allegedly) High Masters. You only use the cannon in your mineral line if you opened with a Forge first. Otherwise, getting a forge is something you do later when you want upgrades or want to protect your second and third bases. Honestly, I think you actually are blowing hot air and you're not High Masters, and you don't use the opening you talked about at all. I came to this conclusion because: 1. You say one thing in one paragraph and then stronly contradict it in another, which is a red flag that you're probably lying/exaggerating. 2. Your timings don't sound accurate at all. Gate-Nexus-Pylon-Gas-Core, an arbitrary chrono on the Core when you don't have the 3. You don't know what a Yuffe is, even though your build is a modified Yuffe where you punt the early game to aggression, but then arbitrarily build a pair of zealots later on because...I don't know. Why do you make the irrelevant, delayed Zealots anyways? 4. There are no replays to back anything up. | ||
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Gumbi
Ireland463 Posts
I've never done a Yuffe, though I am aware of it. I realise I did a long post and posted from memory mainly, though reading through it again it is mostly correct. I said near high Master's. I'm 15th place now. Basicaly a sly way of implying that I'm not mid-Master's  I'll post up some replays. My build is nani's modified 1 gate FE that he used vs DRG in the GSL ro8, except I generally drop the Core before chronoing the Zealot, and getting the Nexus before second Pylon. (nani makes up for at least some of these mins later by pulling (some) probes off gas). Yuffe walls off the ramp with a Gate and Pylon at the bottom, right? And has an early scout? I play really greedily and don't scout 'til my Nexus is dropped (in the current meta maybe 60% (anecdotal) don't ecploit by 15 Hatching - not that it matters hugely). Here is the worst possible scenario turning into an even macro game: http://drop.sc/260449 That'a all I have for now, in the next few days I'll post more if you like. Yuffe def isn't as greedy as this. BTW, how could I prove my rank to you? | ||
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
1. quick gas 2. no expo 3. roach warren And the thing is you will scout all of it, but even if you don't, only a fast gas is still a warning sign. You should just play another, more safe opening, because this will indeed lose to alot of different all ins if you don't react properly. If he tries to do a really sneaky build and delays his gas you WILL have the defense needed to beat the attack, so really, this is a 100% safe build as long as you only play vs later gas(by later gas I mean the very earliest when zerg first scout you going gateway first). | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On October 02 2012 07:22 Lazermonkey wrote: Those who say that this build will struggle vs 7rr because you only get one stalker don't have a clue what they are talking about. Your are obviously not going to play this build vs a zerg who gets 1. quick gas 2. no expo 3. roach warren And the thing is you will scout all of it, but even if you don't, only a fast gas is still a warning sign. You should just play another, more safe opening, because this will indeed lose to alot of different all ins if you don't react properly. If he tries to do a really sneaky build and delays his gas you WILL have the defense needed to beat the attack, so really, this is a 100% safe build as long as you only play vs later gas(by later gas I mean the very earliest when zerg first scout you going gateway first). Exactly. Your gameplan is to 1Gate Expo like it's PvT, but with a bit more aggressive of a poke. But if you see gas first, you transition to a different plan. Gateway openers, for better or worse, are more adaptive than the FFE. You have more freedom to build what you want at that early stage of the game, but that freedom also comes with the demand to adapt to situations--which means knowing how to adapt. | ||
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Gumbi
Ireland463 Posts
Recting properly really does come with practise. I botched a 6 Pool def in a recent game while 1 Gate FEing, ended up with only the slightest of edges. I had 4 Zealots, so I was going to poke my opponent and force tons of Lings while I walled off at home with a cannon. As I reached my opponent's ramp I was greeted by 6 Roaches + more on the way. I reacted we'll and lost only one Zealot. I started dropping cannons at home (only had one done at the time, no wall off yet). Despite the objective fact that my opponent wall going fully all in and that I had an most finished nexus, I didn't react appropriately. I only had maybe 15 workers, 3 on gas. I kept building workers, queued a sentry and stated dropping cannons at my ramp. By the time the Roaches arrived, I had 1 cannon, 3 Zealots and 2 cannons on the way, one of which was almost done. I lost. I learned from my mistake. Queuing the sentry was the right idea, I had the gas, and it's only 50mins, though it wouldn't have ultimately decided the game. I should have pulled probes from gas, dropping cannons as fast as possible, pulled half my probes to delay the Roaches and engage at the bottom of the ramp. As it was I engaged with 3 Zealots next to my cannons and got rolled. I didn't react properly because it was an unusual, unpractised situation arising from a failed cheese. It was a very fragile situation. It won't happen again, though, I have learned . I think I'll post the repay if its still in my recent reps. (If people want it). | ||
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