Hello TeamLiquid, I’m JayPower and this is my 3rd guide and first video tutorial I bring you. This time it is a PvZ build that Naniwa used almost exclusively during his livestream session on the 17th of July. I did download the VOD’s of the stream session and studied the build closely. Unfortunately they’re not available on his twitch.tv channel anymore (his whole channel is gone). Naniwa did showcase this build in the TSL against JonnyREcco however, if you want to study it being executed by him.
Build overview
This build is a very oldschool gateway expand style but with fewer sentries. You do get the forge with the cannon to secure your natural but you get the cybercore first to tech faster and force your opponent to get his zergling speed before his 3rd hatch.
With a fast stargate you will be able to harrass your opponent very early. Even though you start your stargate at roughly the same time as a FFE’ing player would do, your stargate tech will be earlier than your opponent’s tech because he couldn’t open with a 3 hatch before gas build. Your opponent will have to get gas earlier to get zergling speed and this will delay his 3rd base.
Once you have your phoenix out harassing, scouting and giving you map control, there’s a lot of things you can do after it. Naniwa prefers a fast twilight council (for blink) with a fast robo behind it. This gives you a lot of flexibility since you have easy access to immortals, robo bay (colossus) templar archives (storm/archons) or even a dark shrine. You even have easy access to a fleat beacon with the stargate. The robo will be used depending on what you scout. You will at least get an observer (or more) for mobile detection then tech towards an army composition that counters your opponent’s. You can all-in with this blink observer composition you have, or take a 3rd base.
This pylon could be at your opponents natural (and actually let it finish), Naniwa likes to do that. This might cause your opponent to take his 2nd base at his 3rd base location. This will play into your hand because your opponent will find out a bit later, with his overlord scout, that you’re on 1 base. He will most likely cancel his 2nd base because on most maps it’s extremely difficult to defend a 4gate if you’re spread out like that. Make sure to replace the pylon fast if it’s getting killed so that you can keep producing probes. Of course you can simply put the 2nd pylon in your main base.
18 zealot
You can of course skip the zealot if don’t like to get one. This will get you a slightly faster nexus (23/28 instead of 27/34), so before your 3rd pylon. You can even go nexus before stalker, this will delay your stalker by quite some time though.
23 Stalker
Right now you can pressure your opponent with your zealot (which should be on his way to your opponents base already) and the stalker. Make sure to remember when your opponents zergling speed will finish (assuming he got his gas), timings for that will be in this guide as well.
24 Pylon (at natural) 27 Nexus / 2nd gas 28 forge (at natural) / stargate (in main) 31 pylon 32 cannon / 2nd gate to wall off natural
You can make the forge / stargate / 2nd gate in almost any order you want, depending on how greedy you want to play. I recommend forge first though, it is always good to get that quick cannon up after that the stargate and then the 2nd gateway.
Your stargate will finish around 6:30 if you went forge before stargate. From here on out the build is pretty straight forward. You just make phoenix and go harras with them, it takes 4 phoenix to take down a queen or a roach in 1 lift. You can get more though if you feel like it though. Your 3rd and 4th gas will be around 54 supply. This isn’t an exact timing but rather a direction, when you use this build more often you’ll get it sooner/later to match your playstyle.
Even though you’ll have 2 gateway’s, make sure to make as few units as possible in the early game so that you can get your production (gateway’s) up earlier, this will result in you having more units later. Make sure you are save from any attacks though. If you are completely clueless to what your opponent might be doing, you can send out your first phoenix to scout right away.
- 9 Pylon / 13 gateway / 14 gas - 16 pylon (in main base) / 17 cybercore - 18 zealot / 23 stalker - 27 nexus / 2nd gas / forge (at natural) - 28 Stargate (in main base) - 32 cannon (at natural) / 2nd gate (at natural) - 54~ 3rd and 4th gas
Quick tips
Here is a list of some useful tips you want to be aware of while doing this build.
- If a queen injects, the hold position on it is lost and you can lure it out of spore crawler range again. - Make sure to target the queen once you lift it up with the phoenix if there are overlords nearby. You don’t want to waste any phoenix shots on the overlords causing you to use 2 lifts to kill 1 queen. - It takes 6 fungals to kill a full health/shield phoenix. - If you plan to expand, you can fully wall-off your natural on some maps to feel more save. (ohana + entombed valley). - On some maps you can put you zealot in a very nice position to hold the watchtower. It makes it a lot harder for the zerg to pick it off. Use your stalker and sentry to wall your natural. - Phoenix can lift your own units too. You can use this to pick up stalkers that are surrounded by speedlings for example. - Use phoenix to prevent units from retreating. - Don’t hesitate to get a voidray out if you see your opponent makes a lot of roaches to pressure you expansion. You might not have enough immortals out. You can use this voidray to harass even more in combination with the phoenix’.
Priority when you use your phoenix’:
If your opponent didn’t scout (most likely no spores): 1. Go straight for the queens at his hatcheries to cripple his production 2. Try to kill drones if the spores aren’t ready yet 3. Kill overlords around the map to prevent your opponent from scouting. 4. Stay active around opponent’s base with the phoenix.
If your opponent did scout, you have to assume that spores are ready (evo chambers build quite fast):
1. Go for overlords around the map right away, this will prevent your opponent from scouting your next tech choice. 2. Stay active around opponents base and try to pick off anything out of the range of spores (drones/overlords/queens transferring)
Video tutorial
For this guide I made a video tutorial on YouTube where I explain the build and go over replays of my own.
0:00 – 03:22
This is the first part where I’m doing the build overview. I elaborate on the build order and offer alternatives.
3:22 – 38:54
This is the second part where I’m analyzing my own replays. Mostly showing the numerous things that phoenix can do and how you should respond to what your opponent is doing.
38:54 – 43:31
In this last part I’m giving a list of quick tips and timings that you can apply when you’re doing this build.
Game 1 – Quantic.NaNiwa vs Dignitas.JonnyREcco – TSL4 Ro32 Match 5
In this game we can see Naniwa open with the same type of expand opening but gets the twilight instead of the stargate. This really shows how well you can switch up the tech in this build and not being limited to one build order.
Game 2 – Quantic.NaNiwa vs Dignitas.JonnyREcco – TSL4 Ro32 Match 5
In this game Naniwa went for the phoenix opening into a colossus expand.
In this game my opponents decided to baneling bust me. With a probe scout, a clutch forcefield and a good wall-off I was able to hold off the aggression, being up 10 workers and my 4th phoenix on the way. With the limited tech (lair nowhere near started) and the low queen count I was able to pick off everything travelling between the main and the natural while taking my 3rd base at the same time as the zerg. With the map control that I gained with the phoenix’ I was able to see this final baneling bust coming and held it off.
In this game my opponent `went for a 2 base nydus/hydra play. Even though my colossus tech was late and he got nydus up in my main, I was able to hold off his attack. The phoenix helped me out greatly in this game, picking off a lot of queen and numerous overlords
Here occurred the situation I talked about earlier about the 2nd pylon placement. I blocked his natural with my second pylon, my opponent responded by taking his 3rd base right away. After his overlord saw that I had nothing at my natural and was opening with a 1base play, he canceled his expansion right away. I wanted to pressure this expansion with a 3gate attack after expand, but after I saw he canceled his base and was mining gas, I stuck to the original build order.
My opponent tried to do a big 3 base roach/infestor attack. I was already preparing with immortals and a big amount of gateway units (ideally I would want to get colossus as well but I wasn’t sure when he was going to attack). My opponent spend all his infestor energy to kill 4 phoenix’, this triggered me to attack. The game went to a base trade but I managed to win the game quite convincingly.
This game is probably one of the sloppiest I played. My opponent went for a roach hydra’s composition. With some bad macro on my part I almost lost the game, but my opponent didn’t add corruptors with his army so I was able to close the game out with a colossus push.
This game isn’t a ladder game but a practice game between me and a clanmate. This game shows really well that if you keep a you phoenix very active, you can pick off a lot of stuff (queens/drones/overlords) even though your opponent has 2 spore’s per base. Most player will set their queen to hold position near a spore so that they won’t walk out of range to attack the phoenix (this happens automatically if you don’t set it to hold position). But if your opponent injects with the queen, the hold position resets and you can lure the queen out of the range of the spore again to pick it up.
Also in this game you can see the full potential of making very few units early and getting your gateway’s up as soon as possible. I decided to follow my phoenix harass up with a 7gate blink stalker all-in with +2. Even though my opponent had a very good defense in the making (roach/ling with infestors), I was able to make almost every infestor useless by making them spend energy on the phoenix (it takes 6 fungals to kill a full health/shield phoenix) or killing them with the phoenix.
You can see in the end that im floating quite some money almost causing me the game. This is why I recommend (even to low-mid master players) to get 1 or 2 additional gates. It is very difficult to lift off units with your phoenix, forcefield and blink stalker micro during a battle while worrying about your warp-ins.
In this game you can see how bigger maps can benefit this playstyle very well. We spawned cross position and my opponent assumed that I was FFE’ing. When he found out that there was no nexus at 4:30 into the game he canceled his 3rd hatchery and took a double gas to get zergling speed asap. With his late speed, my zealot and stalker were able to take down 10 slow lings in total (I did loes the zealot).
This game really shows how cost efficient the phoenix/blink stalker composition can be, especially if you catch your opponent off guard. This game I was able to kill 2 queens, 7 overlords and 8 drones in 4 minutes.
In this game you can see 2 other great uses for the phoenix’. The first is to kill off roaches once you opponent’s bases are 100% harassment-proof. If your opponent moves out, or isn’t near a spore with his roaches you can just pick one up and kill it. You’re trading energy for minerals/gas. Another thing you can do is prevent units of your opponent from retreating. This goes very well with the blink stalker combination. This game was very back and forward, my opponent put a lot of pressure on me. But if you hold off the aggression, you can just lift off the retreating units of your opponent.
In a standard macro game with lots of aggression/harassment from both sides, I was able to win the game.
This game was a very straight forward macro game. I tried to go for the 3rd very early but my opponent already had roaches out fast. Because my robo was late I didn’t have access to immortals so I decided to make a voidray to help defend my 3rd. This voidray also helped in combination with the phoenix to put on a lot more aggression on the zerg. Other than that the game was very standard.
If you’re looking for a more in-dept analysis of my game where I go over what I’m thinking at what point in the game, I recommend watching the VOD on my YouTube channel. I’ll explain what my thought process is from what I’m scouting and present you different things you can do to react to what you scout. I make an analysis video for every replay.
Please give me feedback on the guide / video guide. I know my voice sounds very boring and I never get excited, I’m still working on that. Is there another way you would prefer that I setup these video or do you think something is missing? I am working on some audio / video clips and a own logo to make the intro / outro a bit more interesting. So please give me suggestions on how I can improve.
On August 19 2012 20:47 Pimpmuckl wrote: Any usual transitions on this? I guess the usual Colossus Push would work wonders? Nice guide!
A good follow-up that I like is blink stalkers all-in or expand with a quick robo behind it. Phoenix and blink stalkers are just so cost-efficient together. Of course with the quick phoenix you can scout and counter your opponent. The phoenix will arrive before the lair is done most of the time so you get easy scouting. But yea you're right, colossus pushes are a really good follow-up, be careful though against paranoid zergs that will go muta's to deal with the phoenix
your stargate tech will be earlier than your opponent’s tech because he couldn’t open with a 3 hatch before gas build.
Wouldn't that mean a zerg will have tech faster because they don't have to invest so heavily on droning up/ building a 3rd hatchery? If so, then, what are the strengths of this build?
Also, another high masters player who does this build is CCalms, I don't know if he does the exact same build, but he does gateway expand into stargate.
your stargate tech will be earlier than your opponent’s tech because he couldn’t open with a 3 hatch before gas build.
Wouldn't that mean a zerg will have tech faster because they don't have to invest so heavily on droning up/ building a 3rd hatchery? If so, then, what are the strengths of this build?
Also, another high masters player who does this build is CCalms, I don't know if he does the exact same build, but he does gateway expand into stargate.
With tech I actually meant lair tech, which is necessary to prevent the phoenix from doing much harrasment. Infestors/hydra's or even muta's can deal with phoenix quite well with proper placement. Getting the early speed for the zerglings slows their 3rd hatch down which is 1/3 of their production so this will automatically lead to their economy coming up slower.
The strength of this build is that the zerg has to account for possible gateway pressure or even all-ins. As you can see with the stephano style that the zerg actually needs very few scouting information or units in the early game. This results into them having the opportunity to make a lot more drones.
I've used this build almost exclusively in PvZ for about a month now, and I'm really glad that people are starting to see the light about the 13 gate 14-15 gas opener. I don't know how happy I am about zergs figuring it out and doing some things better, like not flying their first overlord into a Stalker or like getting earlier ling speed.
There are a lot of good variations to this build, and you can pull out whatever follow up you want. Sometimes, I cancel the Nexus and 5gate all-in (old school MC style). Or I go up to 2 gates instead of a Nexus and I apply heavy pressure, if I see some weakness. You can also do Nexus, Twillight, 2-3 more gates and go for a really fast blink timing or for DTs if you build and retain a decent stalker count from the pressure and you want to punish your opponent for playing heavy economics to get back into the game. You basically can do whatever you want to transition, so long as it's something cohesive and logical and you're scouting to make better decisions.
Generally speaking, a Gas/Pool opener is the worst case scenario for you. Any kind of 6-10 pool is basically a joke because you just boost your Zealot and pull probes as needed until your Stalker comes out, then you roll across the map and kill the Zerg with some extra gates. But if they go 14/14 or some other Speedling opener, that's a pretty good counter to this opener. If you can, you want to wall off your natural ASAP using your third pylon and some 150 mineral buildings. If not, you need to figure out some other wall off that keeps you safe from Speedlings, and you need to also consider the high probability of Banes or Roaches coming for a bust. You can delay your expo by a minute or two and be fine, and you don't need any kind of pressure because there is serious economical damage when the zerg gets gas (-1 drone, -25 minerals for the extractor, -mining time from 3 drones for a minute, -100 minerals for speed) if he just makes a handful of speedlings and expands. Basically, you should lean towards expecting an all-in, or a commitment to attacking that requires serious damage be done in order for it to be worthwhile.
I have some replays of playing this style and transitioning a few different ways. If I get a chance, I'll dig them out of my replays folder and post 'em up.
On August 20 2012 00:20 ineversmile wrote: I've used this build almost exclusively in PvZ for about a month now, and I'm really glad that people are starting to see the light about the 13 gate 14-15 gas opener.
The idea that you'll somehow get an advantage by opening Gateway first then going Stargate rather than Forge Fast Expand is totally dependent on how your opponent reacts. These kinds of builds are working because Zergs have forgotten how to play vs Gateway first openers and are so used to Forge Fast Expands.
Gateway first used to dominate the matchup, and Zergs figured out all these pressure builds and they started to literally do nothing. So they will continue to do literally nothing, unless Zerg reacts poorly.
I don't particularly like this build, due to the reasons below. But first I think you made a typo.
Your stargate will finish around 6:30 if you went forge before stargate.
Your video shows you starting the stargate at 6:30, not finishing. For the second game it finishes around 6:30 but you also went stargate before forge/gateway. Unless something went wrong that delayed you by a minute that I didn't see. It seems like you have plenty of gas to place the stargate earlier, but I don't know if you had enough minerals without cutting something else (delayed forge or canon or cut probes or something).
Another point that bothers me, is that it seems it might auto lose to a baneling bust that can be done reactively to scouting the no FFE. If you can get the stargate to finish at 6:30, and your first phoenix scouts the ling bust at 7:05 maybe you can get enough sentries to defend against it? It would hit around 7:15. On the other hand, if you send the first phoenix to scout you highly limit the amount of damage you can do with the phoenix's as they have plenty of time to drop spores.
Your stargate will finish around 6:30 if you went forge before stargate.
Your video shows you starting the stargate at 6:30, not finishing. For the second game it finishes around 6:30 but you also went stargate before forge/gateway. Unless something went wrong that delayed you by a minute that I didn't see. It seems like you have plenty of gas to place the stargate earlier, but I don't know if you had enough minerals without cutting something else (delayed forge or canon or cut probes or something).
Another point that bothers me, is that it seems it might auto lose to a baneling bust that can be done reactively to scouting the no FFE. If you can get the stargate to finish at 6:30, and your first phoenix scouts the ling bust at 7:05 maybe you can get enough sentries to defend against it? It would hit around 7:15. On the other hand, if you send the first phoenix to scout you highly limit the amount of damage you can do with the phoenix's as they have plenty of time to drop spores.
The stargate timing is correct. That game I completely forgot about it and made it when I had 350 gas. I recommend looking at the second game where I go stargate before forge and it finishes around 6:15. This is easily equal to finishing at 6:30 if you go forge first. I'm looking through my other replay and every game where I go forge first, the stargate finishes at 6:30 (or shouldve if i threw it down when I had the money for it without cutting probes). So I stand by my timings that the stargate finishes at 6:30, even if you go forge first (not if you go 2nd gateway before stargate). You can download the inculded replays and see for yourself.
I don't agree on auto-losing against a baneling bust. I even have a replay included where I hold a baneling bust. And yes, I agree that showing the first phoenix completely tips your hand and gives your opponent enough time to prepare for the phoenix' and take way fewer damage. That is why I recommend only scouting with the phoenix if you are clueless to what your opponent might be doing. I also recommend scout the attack path from your opponents natural to yours, starting at yours so that you can see the banelings morphing and prepare for them.
I would recommend that you copy Liquid`Hero's building placement, by moving the Gateway and the Pylon one hex away from the Nexus -- that way you can place down a single Gateway to help block off in case of a Baneling all-in, allowing you to play greedier while remaining safe than you would otherwise be able to.
Really great work on the guide, I have been looking for a write up to this build for some time as I am a big fan. I really like the earlier harassment capabilities to keep the Zerg players honest! Gonna check out your replays now.
On August 20 2012 05:31 B1itZZ wrote: Really great work on the guide, I have been looking for a write up to this build for some time as I am a big fan. I really like the earlier harassment capabilities to keep the Zerg players honest! Gonna check out your replays now.
I think you've misunderstood the idea behind 1g expo'ing instead of FFE. With a build like this, you're counting on your opponent to play honest (such as the Zerg not going hatch first, and investing into speed before its needed/roach warren because they're afraid of gateway pressure), contrary to being able to keep them honest.
On August 20 2012 00:20 ineversmile wrote: I've used this build almost exclusively in PvZ for about a month now, and I'm really glad that people are starting to see the light about the 13 gate 14-15 gas opener.
The idea that you'll somehow get an advantage by opening Gateway first then going Stargate rather than Forge Fast Expand is totally dependent on how your opponent reacts. These kinds of builds are working because Zergs have forgotten how to play vs Gateway first openers and are so used to Forge Fast Expands.
Gateway first used to dominate the matchup, and Zergs figured out all these pressure builds and they started to literally do nothing. So they will continue to do literally nothing, unless Zerg reacts poorly.
There are so many variations of gateway first openings in PvZ. To make such a overgeneralizing statement about gateway first openings as though there is only one variation is selling it short. Gateway first used to be popular back in the day but that was mostly the super safe 3-gate expand. There are many different variations of 1 or 2 gate expands, such as this one, gate-nexus, etc. which have different strengths and weaknesses.
I think you've misunderstood the idea behind 1g expo'ing instead of FFE. With a build like this, you're counting on your opponent to play honest (such as the Zerg not going hatch first, and investing into speed before its needed/roach warren because they're afraid of gateway pressure), contrary to being able to keep them honest.
Well this is what I mean. In the sense that it stops them cutting corners and trying to get away with being greedy economically, as so many Zergs are doing at the moment.
I think you've misunderstood the idea behind 1g expo'ing instead of FFE. With a build like this, you're counting on your opponent to play honest (such as the Zerg not going hatch first, and investing into speed before its needed/roach warren because they're afraid of gateway pressure), contrary to being able to keep them honest.
Well this is what I mean. In the sense that it stops them cutting corners and trying to get away with being greedy economically, as so many Zergs are doing at the moment.
No it doesnt stop them from cutting corners. If you open 1g fe, you're counting on them to be too scared to cut corners.
I think you've misunderstood the idea behind 1g expo'ing instead of FFE. With a build like this, you're counting on your opponent to play honest (such as the Zerg not going hatch first, and investing into speed before its needed/roach warren because they're afraid of gateway pressure), contrary to being able to keep them honest.
Well this is what I mean. In the sense that it stops them cutting corners and trying to get away with being greedy economically, as so many Zergs are doing at the moment.
No it doesnt stop them from cutting corners. If you open 1g fe, you're counting on them to be too scared to cut corners.
Well if they are reacting through fear of what you can do then it accounts to the same thing.. People will not do this vs FFE and proceed with fast 3rd etc, as is my point.
I think you've misunderstood the idea behind 1g expo'ing instead of FFE. With a build like this, you're counting on your opponent to play honest (such as the Zerg not going hatch first, and investing into speed before its needed/roach warren because they're afraid of gateway pressure), contrary to being able to keep them honest.
Well this is what I mean. In the sense that it stops them cutting corners and trying to get away with being greedy economically, as so many Zergs are doing at the moment.
No it doesnt stop them from cutting corners. If you open 1g fe, you're counting on them to be too scared to cut corners.
Well if they are reacting through fear of what you can do then it accounts to the same thing.. People will not do this vs FFE and proceed with fast 3rd etc, as is my point.
There is no way you can control what people will or will not do. Im just pointing out, this build is only as "solid/good" whatever you wanna call it as your opponent is scared/accounting for the things you could be doing. Let me put it this way, if you open FFE, your worst case scenarios will better than if you open 1g expo.
That said, I like to do a variation of this build myself, just greedier with 4x cb on probes and no probe-scouting, stalker nexus 5:34ish Stargate, Forge after 4th pylon and sentry. What I do can be exploited in numerous ways, so can the build described in this guide, and so can all builds in this game. It's ultimately just a question of risk/reward-calculation and what you expect your opponent to do and how you expect your opponent to react to what you're doing.
Edit: just a little clarification, my Stargate is done at 5:34 is what I meant.
On August 20 2012 00:20 ineversmile wrote: I've used this build almost exclusively in PvZ for about a month now, and I'm really glad that people are starting to see the light about the 13 gate 14-15 gas opener.
The idea that you'll somehow get an advantage by opening Gateway first then going Stargate rather than Forge Fast Expand is totally dependent on how your opponent reacts. These kinds of builds are working because Zergs have forgotten how to play vs Gateway first openers and are so used to Forge Fast Expands.
Gateway first used to dominate the matchup, and Zergs figured out all these pressure builds and they started to literally do nothing. So they will continue to do literally nothing, unless Zerg reacts poorly.
1. Maps were a lot smaller when the FFE started taking over, so you could get wrecked by aggression timings back then whereas now a lot of those timings are considerably later. Even if they're delayed by 5 or 10 seconds, that's practically a lifetime of difference.
2. Zergs primarily beat the Gateway openers with speedling openers and other gas-pool busts. If you try that opening against a FFE, you get destroyed. So if both 13gate and FFE exist and the Zerg decides to open gas/pool, he's seriously gambling and will come out really far behind if you decided to FFE. There is also the Yuffe to consider, which is a middle ground expansion plan which is pretty safe from Speedling openings and will also put the Zerg far behind.
In addition, when you scout the gas/pool from the zerg, you know to delay your nexus, cancel your third stalker for a sentry, and cut probes until you establish a strong wall on the low ground. And you go home with your pressure at that point, because you don't need pressure to be ahead or even against gas/pool--you just need to safely take a delayed expansion. It's not like the old days where you'd be close spawn on Metalopolis and a 7RR would show up at your doorstep while you were doing a Sentry expand, and everyone was missing simple forcefields because the collective unit control of all players was a lot crappier (except for MC).
3. If the Zerg doesn't open Gas/Pool and sees that you haven't FFEed, he does't exactly know what you're doing. Are you proxy gating? Are you building 1 gate in base, like this opening? Are you going up to 2 gates for heavy pressure? What about the 4gate? Teching hard with double gas? The proper Zerg response seems to be to get gas when you don't see the FFE, which leads to about a 7:00-7:30 gas timing, but then he also has to either scout or gamble to figure out what else you're dong. So what does he do, fly his overlord into your main and into a stalker? Drone scout? Send 2/4 lings over to get denied by the Zealot/Stalker or Stalker? Send 6/8 lings over and lose all of them and their larva (at that stage of the game) at the cost of information? If he doesn't see what's going on, how many spines should he build? If he builds 1 and you 4gate, that's not going to hold. If he builds 2 or 3 and you just drop a ~30 Nexus behind 2-3 gateway units, you just killed a couple drones and forced useless base defense instead of another hatchery or queens or a Roach Warren (to send a bust over).
I think you've misunderstood the idea behind 1g expo'ing instead of FFE. With a build like this, you're counting on your opponent to play honest (such as the Zerg not going hatch first, and investing into speed before its needed/roach warren because they're afraid of gateway pressure), contrary to being able to keep them honest.
Well this is what I mean. In the sense that it stops them cutting corners and trying to get away with being greedy economically, as so many Zergs are doing at the moment.
No it doesnt stop them from cutting corners. If you open 1g fe, you're counting on them to be too scared to cut corners.
Well if they are reacting through fear of what you can do then it accounts to the same thing.. People will not do this vs FFE and proceed with fast 3rd etc, as is my point.
There is no way you can control what people will or will not do. Im just pointing out, this build is only as "solid/good" whatever you wanna call it as your opponent is scared/accounting for the things you could be doing. Let me put it this way, if you open FFE, your worst case scenarios will better than if you open 1g expo.
That said, I like to do a variation of this build myself, just greedier with 4x cb on probes and no probe-scouting, stalker nexus 5:34ish Stargate, Forge after 4th pylon and sentry. What I do can be exploited in numerous ways, so can the build described in this guide, and so can all builds in this game. It's ultimately just a question of risk/reward-calculation and what you expect your opponent to do and how you expect your opponent to react to what you're doing.
Edit: just a little clarification, my Stargate is done at 5:34 is what I meant.
Ok, I now see what you are saying. Just that IMO it would be very risky for the Zerg player not to respond as such.
I think you've misunderstood the idea behind 1g expo'ing instead of FFE. With a build like this, you're counting on your opponent to play honest (such as the Zerg not going hatch first, and investing into speed before its needed/roach warren because they're afraid of gateway pressure), contrary to being able to keep them honest.
Well this is what I mean. In the sense that it stops them cutting corners and trying to get away with being greedy economically, as so many Zergs are doing at the moment.
No it doesnt stop them from cutting corners. If you open 1g fe, you're counting on them to be too scared to cut corners.
Well if they are reacting through fear of what you can do then it accounts to the same thing.. People will not do this vs FFE and proceed with fast 3rd etc, as is my point.
There is no way you can control what people will or will not do. Im just pointing out, this build is only as "solid/good" whatever you wanna call it as your opponent is scared/accounting for the things you could be doing. Let me put it this way, if you open FFE, your worst case scenarios will better than if you open 1g expo.
That said, I like to do a variation of this build myself, just greedier with 4x cb on probes and no probe-scouting, stalker nexus 5:34ish Stargate, Forge after 4th pylon and sentry. What I do can be exploited in numerous ways, so can the build described in this guide, and so can all builds in this game. It's ultimately just a question of risk/reward-calculation and what you expect your opponent to do and how you expect your opponent to react to what you're doing.
Edit: just a little clarification, my Stargate is done at 5:34 is what I meant.
Ok, I now see what you are saying. Just that IMO it would be very risky for the Zerg player not to respond as such.
If you try to account for everything, there will always be scenarios where you are at a relative disadvantage, which making winning impossible unless your race is overpowered or you outplay your opponent. You have to take risks one way or another.
I've been doing a similiar build on ladder for a couple months now. I'm only a lowbie nobody, but it's very fun and seems to be pretty effective. I go for 2 gates at the natural rather than 1gate+1forge, and then I can threaten gateway aggression a lot better, hopefully forcing more spines+roaches as I'm building up my 4 pheonix.
I usually throw down my robo after the second pheonix and then do a 3 collosus 6gate all-in off 2 bases after he's finished holding off the pheonix.
I like this as your initial zealot/stalker poke forces lings, then the feigned gate pressure forces spines+roaches, then the pheonix force spores+queens. So people at my level (plat/diamond) are usually in a bad position to deal with the collosus push.
if your opponent is playing greedy like hatch first/3 hatch, what are the best ways to put on pressure or all in to punish them for underestimating your faster warpgate possibility?
On August 22 2012 00:35 zelkia wrote: if your opponent is playing greedy like hatch first/3 hatch, what are the best ways to put on pressure or all in to punish them for underestimating your faster warpgate possibility?
I like 4 ways of dealing with greedy zerg play:
1. 4gate. It's a bit delayed because you boost probes early, but you can make up for that speed loss by getting a robo and warp prism, which can let you go wreck the main behind their spine crawlers. Or you can build your Nexus and boost your WG research and do a 5gate nexus cancel all-in.
2. 2gate. Instead of using a WG timing, you just build another gateway and put on heavy pressure the old-fashioned way with 2 gateways pumping units. It's like the 3 stalker rush but against Zerg. If they're trying to do triple hatch, just go to their expo and kill their queens and lings, then use your discretion about whether to back up and recharge shields or to just go up the ramp and kill them. With good micro you can usually either kill them or destroy a lot of their infrastructure, and you can build a nexus behind this. A good follow-up is Twilight tech and DT shrine on 2 bases, which will usually cancel their third and potentially end the game if they gamble without detection. You can also go blink, which is good with the pre-existing stalker count from the 2-gate pressure.
3. Cut your Zealot, pull your probes off of gas after you get 100 for Stalker+Core, and get a Nexus immediately. Then go build another Nexus. Then build your third pylon at the natural, boost your warpgate constantly, and build a bunch of gates at your natural ramp and in your main. One stalker is enough to deal with the intial 2 or 4 lings by itself, so you just fight fire with fire and cut all the corners to get a ridiculously fast third yourself, and build a zealot and nothing else but gates. If you see a ton of slow lings coming across the map, you just cancel the third and sit behind your wall at the natural and enjoy the fact that he just built a bunch of lings instead of drones, and probably invested into speed so the lings can be faster while they're useless outside your base. Expect a desperate all-in very soon.
4. Play normally, because you get ahead by just doing this opening straight-out against gasless third hatch, even if it's hatch first from the zerg. Go to his natural with Zealot/Stalker/Stalker, force spines and kill what you can, and then back off and go cancel his third. Then go home before speed finishes and you're in good shape.
On August 22 2012 00:35 zelkia wrote: if your opponent is playing greedy like hatch first/3 hatch, what are the best ways to put on pressure or all in to punish them for underestimating your faster warpgate possibility?
I like 4 ways of dealing with greedy zerg play:
1. 4gate. It's a bit delayed because you boost probes early, but you can make up for that speed loss by getting a robo and warp prism, which can let you go wreck the main behind their spine crawlers. Or you can build your Nexus and boost your WG research and do a 5gate nexus cancel all-in.
2. 2gate. Instead of using a WG timing, you just build another gateway and put on heavy pressure the old-fashioned way with 2 gateways pumping units. It's like the 3 stalker rush but against Zerg. If they're trying to do triple hatch, just go to their expo and kill their queens and lings, then use your discretion about whether to back up and recharge shields or to just go up the ramp and kill them. With good micro you can usually either kill them or destroy a lot of their infrastructure, and you can build a nexus behind this. A good follow-up is Twilight tech and DT shrine on 2 bases, which will usually cancel their third and potentially end the game if they gamble without detection. You can also go blink, which is good with the pre-existing stalker count from the 2-gate pressure.
3. Cut your Zealot, pull your probes off of gas after you get 100 for Stalker+Core, and get a Nexus immediately. Then go build another Nexus. Then build your third pylon at the natural, boost your warpgate constantly, and build a bunch of gates at your natural ramp and in your main. One stalker is enough to deal with the intial 2 or 4 lings by itself, so you just fight fire with fire and cut all the corners to get a ridiculously fast third yourself, and build a zealot and nothing else but gates. If you see a ton of slow lings coming across the map, you just cancel the third and sit behind your wall at the natural and enjoy the fact that he just built a bunch of lings instead of drones, and probably invested into speed so the lings can be faster while they're useless outside your base. Expect a desperate all-in very soon.
4. Play normally, because you get ahead by just doing this opening straight-out against gasless third hatch, even if it's hatch first from the zerg. Go to his natural with Zealot/Stalker/Stalker, force spines and kill what you can, and then back off and go cancel his third. Then go home before speed finishes and you're in good shape.
Have you by chance got a rep or link to number 3. in action? I would be interested to see it.
A high-level protoss told me: Going mass ling off your 2 bases upon realizing that protoss is not getting a core after gate (going gateway nexus) will win the game right off the bat. Zealot block doesn't matter, protoss simply can't have enough units to deal with it. The protoss might kill 20 lings and expand the wall-off but the result is inevitable. He is baffeled that zergs have not realized this. Thoughts on that?
It'd be hard to hide mass slowlings. The protoss could get forge + cannons down in time if he keeps building more structures to wall. Plus, even the greedier protoss will get gas/cybercore soon after the 2nd gate.
On August 22 2012 05:39 dachi wrote: It'd be hard to hide mass slowlings. The protoss could get forge + cannons down in time if he keeps building more structures to wall. Plus, even the greedier protoss will get gas/cybercore soon after the 2nd gate.
Oops; I was thrown off by the title which says gateway expand and I thought gateway directly into nexus which is also something that has been blowing up. My bad.
I did mention gateway -> nexus in my post so maybe we happened to be talking about the same thing after all. What I'm talking about is basically instantly going szzzzzzzzz rally to base win. Protoss can't scout that too easily before the units are halfway there and the first batch should win right away, the opponent can't get units or cannons out in time even if they ever so unlikely would realize it in time. Say they get cannons up, well they have completely walled themselves in and are pretty much forced to play on 1 base, zerg meanwhile can happily drone behind all this and be ahead. On top of it all, protoss just wasted time and minerals in the forge and cannon(s).
On August 22 2012 05:27 ittron wrote: A high-level protoss told me: Going mass ling off your 2 bases upon realizing that protoss is not getting a core after gate (going gateway nexus) will win the game right off the bat. Zealot block doesn't matter, protoss simply can't have enough units to deal with it. He is baffeled that zergs have not realized this. Thoughts on that?
Could be true, but I'm not sure. Is this speedlings or slowling? 14gas 14pool or 15pool 15/16hatch then 18gas? It really depends on the build order. Also this build is cybercore right after gateway so doesn't apply to this build. vs 14gas14pool you might wanna get your wall before your nexus.
On August 22 2012 05:27 ittron wrote: A high-level protoss told me: Going mass ling off your 2 bases upon realizing that protoss is not getting a core after gate (going gateway nexus) will win the game right off the bat. Zealot block doesn't matter, protoss simply can't have enough units to deal with it. He is baffeled that zergs have not realized this. Thoughts on that?
Could be true, but I'm not sure. Is this speedlings or slowling? 14gas 14pool or 15pool 15/16hatch then 18gas? It really depends on the build order. Also this build is cybercore right after gateway so doesn't apply to this build. vs 14gas14pool you might wanna get your wall before your nexus.
Yeah, I mentioned that in my post that it doesn't actually apply to this build at all.
I asked him, he said it really makes no difference.
For example,14 or 15 pool -> 15 or 16 hatch slowlings off the first proper set of injected larvae off 2 bases. (maybe not the best, but this not some kind of counter build to it, just a reaction you make make off a normal 2-base opening that will simply run your opponent to the ground) He said that you will get through, he can't build a strong enough wall even if he keeps doing it and they will never make units or cannons fast enough to stop it.
Edit: or maybe he meant that you just instantly start making lings when you see a gate->expo build and target the nexus down with and after that you will have enough lings to push the front too. I actually think that's more likely.
On August 22 2012 05:27 ittron wrote: A high-level protoss told me: Going mass ling off your 2 bases upon realizing that protoss is not getting a core after gate (going gateway nexus) will win the game right off the bat. Zealot block doesn't matter, protoss simply can't have enough units to deal with it. The protoss might kill 20 lings and expand the wall-off but the result is inevitable. He is baffeled that zergs have not realized this. Thoughts on that?
Gate-Nexus-Forge opening can deal with 2-base lings is fine if you know the timings and have proper sim city. The only really tricky part is the micro involved to defend your first cannon from the first batch of lings (while at the same time making sure they don't sneak up your ramp), but with proper micro and simcity you're fine. If the zerg really commits you will take damage but in most cases they have to completely deny the expansion or you are pretty far ahead.
edit: actually it looks like to me the build in the OP it would be even easier to deny the expansion with mass lings since it is gate-core-nexus-forge and you won't have buildings on the low ground to wall-off.
I don't really get the purpose of the build. Lack of sentries makes it pretty vulnerable to speedling harass or denial of your expo. Even though early gas is really rare in the metagame many players still (and maybe should) respond to gate first with a relatively fast gas. And even if they do get the fast third, you have no means to pressure it with this really. Secondly, your stargate isn't even much faster than a FFE build.
To me it feels you're just hurting your own economy for very little gain (slightly faster stargate, just a little more pressure).
On August 22 2012 07:31 Markwerf wrote: I don't really get the purpose of the build. Lack of sentries makes it pretty vulnerable to speedling harass or denial of your expo. Even though early gas is really rare in the metagame many players still (and maybe should) respond to gate first with a relatively fast gas. And even if they do get the fast third, you have no means to pressure it with this really. Secondly, your stargate isn't even much faster than a FFE build.
To me it feels you're just hurting your own economy for very little gain (slightly faster stargate, just a little more pressure).
In the current meta-game your opponent's speed won't be done nearly in time to deny your expansion. I reccomend watching some of my replays so you cant get an idea of when speed is done and see that no one actually drone scouts or opens gas first (not even in pro games). If your opponent does go for triple hatch before gas (which he shouldn't for obvious reasons), you can punish it by going 4gate after expand (or even with a nexus cancel). You're right though that I left quite a big part out of this guide on how to respond to zergs not respecting your warpgate timing being done much faster. Also you forget the fact that the zerg has to be more careful with droning.
I really recommend watching some of my replays, especially the ones where I all-in off 2 base. I don't hurt my economy at all if the zerg doesn't cut corners (where you can punish him for).
Hi! I'm a novice player and I've begun testing it against AI. Instead of early expanding the computer almost always goes for Zergling/Roach rush. How do you adjust your strategy if you scout an incoming rush? I've found it's much harder to initially harass with your 1st Zealot if they have Roaches.
ive tried this a few times in high plat, and it doesnt show me any results. Every game ive done this, ive just had the zerg all in me - which is successful for him in most cases - so it seems pretty pointless. If his all in doesnt work it just leaves us both a bit crippled.
Are there maps where its better/worse to do this on?
This build only is hoping for zerg scouting bad and macro bad. In ur first game in the VOD u take third with 4 zealots sentry a 3 stalkers at 11:30 how is that even viable 10 roaches kill that and by 11:30 ppl have 10 roaches. But then again most zergs dont know how greedy this is so they turtle and tech to infestors to play it safe while there is 4minutes timing for easy win.
This can be viable build but not to take fast third with more likely to make 2base push and take third behind it.
On August 24 2012 16:43 TheKleszcz wrote: Hi! I'm a novice player and I've begun testing it against AI. Instead of early expanding the computer almost always goes for Zergling/Roach rush. How do you adjust your strategy if you scout an incoming rush? I've found it's much harder to initially harass with your 1st Zealot if they have Roaches.
Sorry for the late reply. There's no need to pressure a zerg that's still on 1 base, the zealot is of course quite useless against roaches. With the stalker you can stick around to see what he's up to untill his speed is done. Use the timings in the tutorial to determine when your opponents speed can be done based off his gas timing. You have until 24 seconds after the pool to get your probe in his base to take a last peek at his gas before the zerglings come out.
With this build you can hold anything as long as you scout it in time. So the timing when you scout an incoming rush is important. Did you scout his gas timing, his roach warren timing or did you see the attack coming when it already was halfway across the map? Is you opponent on 1 base, 2 base or 3 bases?
When your opponent is still on 1 base (and mining gas) I recommend building the wall with 2 cannons before the nexus. If your opponent is on 2 bases I recommend using your first phoenix to scout his base, you can always make a 2nd cannon early if you suspect your opponent might be up to something. Don't forget to place your zealot at the watchtower and use the stalker to kite the roaches to stall the attack.
I hope this is somewhat usefull, I'm not used to 1 base play from zerg, especially not roaches. I'm not sure what league you are in or what level you set the AI to. If you provide me with a replay or the build order your opponent is doing I might be able to help you more.
On August 27 2012 20:38 ThatGuy89 wrote: ive tried this a few times in high plat, and it doesnt show me any results. Every game ive done this, ive just had the zerg all in me - which is successful for him in most cases - so it seems pretty pointless. If his all in doesnt work it just leaves us both a bit crippled.
Are there maps where its better/worse to do this on?
I think the build is very precise when it comes to dealing with all-ins, which can lead to a lot of frustration when you at first try to work with it. I don't think if you hold an all-in, that you are both crippled. It of course depends on the all-in. I'll try to do a write-up on scouting:
Your first scout it of course the probe scout (at 9 or 11). You get in his base and see the pool timing.
If it is early (6-10pool) you can chronoboost out a zealot then chase the ling out of your base when the stalker comes out. Try to get your natural wall up asap to deal with a possible speedling follow-up. It is very difficult to scout the zerg because of the early queen.
If it isn't a early pool check for the gas.
Even though unlikely, still very possible. If your opponent goes for something like 14gas 14pool I don't recommend poking with the stalker because you really can't lose it. Get your wall up at your natural before the nexus and get 2 sentries before getting the stargate. Make sure to chronoboost out workers so this will not set you behind in economy due to the later nexus. Also be on top of your forcefields. In lower leagues this can be very hard but once you're able to do so it'll work wonders. I even have a replay included where it shows how important that sentry is.
If your opponent isn't getting gas before the queen is out (you can scout him untill that point), you're good to go. Start pressuring with the zealot/stalker and see how he responds. Does he make spines? extra queens? a lot of slow lings? Make sure you don't lose the stalker and keep a probe at his 3rd base. Behind this you want to make your wall at your natural fast. with the sentry and the cannon you can hold any mass speedling attack if you wall off completely with a zealot or a stalker. The 2 forcefields you'll have are essential to hold off a late baneling bust. If that happens, make sure you stop phoenix production and use the 2 gateways you have for extra defense. Sentries and cannons are very good against baneling busts. Baneling busts are still possible off 3 hatcheries so always pay attention to your natural.
I hope this quick write-up on scouting helped you. If I was wrong and it doesn't apply to the trouble you have with the build please send me replays so that I can help you.
Edit: I don't that there are any maps where the build is overall better. Smaller maps help you pressure with the zealot/stalker earlier but also allow your opponent's all-in to hit faster. Bigger maps are good for phoenix but also gives your stalker less time to harras. Because of the long rush distance it takes some time to get to your opponent's base but you also have to leave earlier to get back safe to your own base.
On August 27 2012 20:43 Veriol wrote: This build only is hoping for zerg scouting bad and macro bad. In ur first game in the VOD u take third with 4 zealots sentry a 3 stalkers at 11:30 how is that even viable 10 roaches kill that and by 11:30 ppl have 10 roaches. But then again most zergs dont know how greedy this is so they turtle and tech to infestors to play it safe while there is 4minutes timing for easy win.
This can be viable build but not to take fast third with more likely to make 2base push and take third behind it.
I don't agree with that at all. It is all about what you scout with the phoenix. In the game you're reffering to I saw that my opponent litteraly only had 1 roach which I killed with the phoenix. If my opponent had more units at that point in time I would've waited with the 3rd base a bit. I've said in the tutorial that you can get a voidray out to defend your 3rd against roach agression as well.
Here is a replay of a game I played 2 days ago against a zerg that made a lot more units. With the phoenix I saw his high speedling count and decided to do some more warp-ins and delay my 3rd base.
Thx everyone for the nice replies. Due to popular requests I will be making a follow-up video where I go more in-dept about scouting and holding early agression. This will probably be in 2 days when I get my new mic.
Edit: also sorry for posting 4 times in a short period of time, should've merged all the replies.
I like this build, but I do have a couple of questions 1. Since gateway builds have been recently appearing back in style, how do zergs approach these builds in terms of expanding? In other words, when is the 3rd hatch supposed to go down as opposed to the timing of the 3rd vs. FFE?
2. In the event the zerg takes his 3rd fast regardless of the opening (let's assume no pylon block), what is the best possible way to punish him? I've seen Jangbi's aggressive 1 gate really shine against greedy zergs, and of course there are a plethora of all-ins to use, but to merely pressure, what is the best possible approach? CB gateway units? 4 gate pressure? Or do you feel that the phoenix do enough damage to stabilize/favor your side?
3. When do you suggest the tech of choice? The timing of, say, a robo/TC?
Thanks for writing this! Trying to go stargate in all matchups (maybe not PvT I guess) this season. Looks like this aims for a macro game too which is excellent. Still don't quite get how this deals with mass roach though.
OH MY FUCKING GOD I JUST HAD A NEAR FLAWLESS VICTORY WITH THIS BUIILD.
First time ever trying it, he's top eight plat, I'm plat as well (second game of the new season for me so with the new and improved ranking unsure exactly how high in plat I'll be, I was 7th in my division last season).
He scouts that this is gateway first and panics HARD. Throws down 6 spines in his main, cancels his expansion at his third, I've got a pylon blocking at his natural.
When he kills that pylon eventually I lose my first unit, and when I poke with zealot/stakler at his newly forming expansion I lose the zealot... and that's it. No more units lost on my side, and soon the phoenixes came in. Drone after drone fell before my might, and by the end of it He had lost 3875 units, I had lost 200. I shit you not. Fuck it, I'm posting this in a new post rather than editing it in so people can see it this game was just too fun!
Oooh, and Seed is doing this build in IPTL right now.
@jaypower, Thanks for the build, I've been using it against some masters (I'm only plat), and have been winning some good games. But, I did some experiments with this build for like 4 hours last night, and I find that a really good follow up after the stargate harass is actually twilight council into chargelot and archon. Most players go ling infestor when they see this style being used. I've been doing a very strong plus 2 attack with chargelot/archon attack while i grab my third. Even against roaching players, this seams to work very well because they dont have roach speed, and are behind on upgrades. And it will completely shut down a muta player since you will have ht, and a stargate.
I like this build, but I do have a couple of questions 1. Since gateway builds have been recently appearing back in style, how do zergs approach these builds in terms of expanding? In other words, when is the 3rd hatch supposed to go down as opposed to the timing of the 3rd vs. FFE?
2. In the event the zerg takes his 3rd fast regardless of the opening (let's assume no pylon block), what is the best possible way to punish him? I've seen Jangbi's aggressive 1 gate really shine against greedy zergs, and of course there are a plethora of all-ins to use, but to merely pressure, what is the best possible approach? CB gateway units? 4 gate pressure? Or do you feel that the phoenix do enough damage to stabilize/favor your side?
3. When do you suggest the tech of choice? The timing of, say, a robo/TC?
Thanks, cool guide, I really appreciate it.
Sorry for the very late reply.
1. As soon as you have your gas going for ling speed or roaches (preferably ling speed). This however is if you're sure your opponent is expanding. If you suspect your opponent might be 4gating or doing another all-in/heavy pressure build, you really want to wait a bit with that 3rd hatch and scout more. For example send in the overlord scout to scout your opponents base or use zerlings to grab the watchtowers and look around your base checking for pylons to be placed. On a lot of maps you have a nice spot for your overlord to sit safe and check for the natural nexus.
2. When I see my opponent take his 3rd base instead of his natural I try to pressure him with a 3gate (after expand). I wall off my natural with 2 gateways after the nexus instead of a forge and a gateway and I don't take my 2nd gas until later. Of course this isn't always succeeding and I'm not sure how much you would have to commit to make it worth the delay in tech. So right now I'm not sure what the best responds.
3. I like to get my tech as soon as I have have 100 gas available while making phoenix and getting my +1 attack. The timing on this will of course depend on how much gas you spend on sentries and stalkers. I try to get as few as possible of those to get my tech going fast.
Thanks for writing this! Trying to go stargate in all matchups (maybe not PvT I guess) this season. Looks like this aims for a macro game too which is excellent. Still don't quite get how this deals with mass roach though.
If you know a roach heavy attack is coming you can make a voidray first or build extra cannons. This defense is very similair to how FFE'ing players would defend it. You just have to know it's coming. For a more detailed description on how to recognize a roach attack or how to defend it I recommend watching my follow-up tutorial I made exclusively about scouting. If you have more questions or things you feel I didn't cover, please let me know. I will awnser sooner this time.
@jaypower, Thanks for the build, I've been using it against some masters (I'm only plat), and have been winning some good games. But, I did some experiments with this build for like 4 hours last night, and I find that a really good follow up after the stargate harass is actually twilight council into chargelot and archon. Most players go ling infestor when they see this style being used. I've been doing a very strong plus 2 attack with chargelot/archon attack while i grab my third. Even against roaching players, this seams to work very well because they dont have roach speed, and are behind on upgrades. And it will completely shut down a muta player since you will have ht, and a stargate.
Hey thx for the reply. I can relate to that for sure. I've had zergs going for fast infestors, to get rid of the phoenix, and staying on speedlings for a long time quite a bit, even if they intended to go roach/infestor. chargelot/archon can be very strong against that.
Thanks everyone for the kind replies, I will be making more guides/video tutorials in the future. I have a new video card and a new mic so I'm really motivated to keep on producing content. I'm also working on my english . I'll try to make 1 guide/video tutorial per week, quality goes over quantity however. For now here's 2 short follow-up tutorials to this guide that go more in-dept on scouting in the early/mid-game. I hope you like the quality of the new mic.
On September 18 2012 06:04 JayPower wrote:1. As soon as you have your gas going for ling speed or roaches (preferably ling speed). This however is if you're sure your opponent is expanding. If you suspect your opponent might be 4gating or doing another all-in/heavy pressure build, you really want to wait a bit with that 3rd hatch and scout more. For example send in the overlord scout to scout your opponents base or use zerlings to grab the watchtowers and look around your base checking for pylons to be placed. On a lot of maps you have a nice spot for your overlord to sit safe and check for the natural nexus.
I like basically everything you said in this post, but flying your overlord into my main base 90% of the time means it shows up basically to find a gateway right as my stalker pops out to shot it down, especially if I'm skipping zealot (which I will do unless I see an early enough pool not to cancel the zealot). So if you scout the main against non-FFE with your overlord, prepare to be 100 minerals in the hole if I opened 13 gate 15 gas because your overlord almost never has a hiding space within reach in my main base (since we don't play Shattered Temple anymore, all the hiding spots are at the natural). It's fine if you plan accordingly and don't let the supply block and 100 minerals+larva sink screw up your timings...but that's often exactly what it does. Then there's also the factor of having no overlord where you normally would have one for later: to check my gases, to fly into my base later to check tech/gateway count, etc. And you can't just think, "I'll fly another ovie over there; it'll be just fine!" because I have stalkers and there's a strong chance I'll find that overlord and shoot it down, depending on the map. It's possible, of course--but dangerous.
On September 18 2012 06:04 JayPower wrote:1. As soon as you have your gas going for ling speed or roaches (preferably ling speed). This however is if you're sure your opponent is expanding. If you suspect your opponent might be 4gating or doing another all-in/heavy pressure build, you really want to wait a bit with that 3rd hatch and scout more. For example send in the overlord scout to scout your opponents base or use zerlings to grab the watchtowers and look around your base checking for pylons to be placed. On a lot of maps you have a nice spot for your overlord to sit safe and check for the natural nexus.
I like basically everything you said in this post, but flying your overlord into my main base 90% of the time means it shows up basically to find a gateway right as my stalker pops out to shot it down, especially if I'm skipping zealot (which I will do unless I see an early enough pool not to cancel the zealot). So if you scout the main against non-FFE with your overlord, prepare to be 100 minerals in the hole if I opened 13 gate 15 gas because your overlord almost never has a hiding space within reach in my main base (since we don't play Shattered Temple anymore, all the hiding spots are at the natural). It's fine if you plan accordingly and don't let the supply block and 100 minerals+larva sink screw up your timings...but that's often exactly what it does. Then there's also the factor of having no overlord where you normally would have one for later: to check my gases, to fly into my base later to check tech/gateway count, etc. And you can't just think, "I'll fly another ovie over there; it'll be just fine!" because I have stalkers and there's a strong chance I'll find that overlord and shoot it down, depending on the map. It's possible, of course--but dangerous.
Oh I was actually refering to a little while later in the game. When the stalker (and maybe zealot) come out, but you don't see a 2nd nexus. Of course checking the gasses in the main tells a lot, but if the stalker is out on the map you might want to send it in. Especially if both gasses are taken. But you're right, the overlord at the natural is way more important and you don't want to send an overlord in that fast.
I haven't played very much over the last two weeks, so my mechanics really slip up in this game, but this is still a pretty fair example of the transition I like from this opening: get a third, go into upgraded chargelots, and back them with constant production of either Phoenixes (in the case of mutas) or immortals (in the case of a significant commitment to roaches). Eithere way, Chargelots are a much more cost-efficient backbone of the army, and all of these units are a lot stronger against infestors/fungals than a blink stalker-based army at that stage of the game.
I have a couple more replays to add to this thread. This first one is how you should defend a baneling bust post-ling speed (which is actually a pretty late timing):
You definitely should put the first 2 pylons and gateway in your main base because they're safer against 6pools, and your core needs to go down ASAP when the gateway finishes so you can't use that to wall the low ground that quickly. However, if you put your third pylon adjacent to the low ground of your ramp and you put the second gateway on the other side of the ramp, there is a one unit choke point where you can park something to block things off. In this game, I cut the Zealot because I scout speed and I know that he's attempting a bust (rather than macro play) because I see him ignoring the pylon at his natural with his lings, so we trade farms with me coming ahead based on that information. The next step is to get a 2nd gas and a sentry immediately after the first stalker, then to get a Stargate when gas allows and hug your ramp.
Don't skip the Nexus; if he overmakes speedlings and cancels it then you're ahead in economy and tech in 1base vs 1base...but if he just speedling expands then you need to punish that by having a relatively even expansion timing but with a higher worker count. After you throw up the Nexus, you can either go for a wall-off at your bigger ramp (like I did in this game because it's Ohana), or you can wall to your Nexus. It's a risk-reward scenario based upon when you feel like your opponent missed a specific timing and you think you can get away with something. In this case, the bane bust came a little later than it could have, and it could have been even earlier without ling speed--but notice that I would have been safe to either because I was close enough to my small choke point that I could back up and play defense, warp in a couple zealots, and then boost a Void Ray to end his pressure for good.
This is a much less map-dependent, much more economical method of dealing with Gas/Pool openings from the zerg. Rather than transitioning into a FFE and getting a really, really slow cannon, you just go into double gas ASAP and get sentries, then make a wall-off that's much more logical for opening with Stalkers. You don't need a full-blown wall-off at your natural ramp when you're opening 13 gate 15 gas. Plus, if you want to be even more safe, you can get that first Zealot and boost it instead of that extra probe boost that I did in this game. Don't cut probes or delay the Core for it, though...just build it when you have 100 minerals on it.
-----
Here's a game where I play against Hatch first with a gas reactive to seeing my gateway opener and a third hatch:
Notice that I have a probe lead from his Hatchery timing forward, and he only makes up for it with a full round of drones that finishes at 5:35 when we're both tied at 24 workers each. My nexus has 23 seconds before it's finished, and I'm pressuring his third with a couple of stalkers. He has to either cancel the hatchery or make a bunch of lings. Since his speed timing is due to finish in a minute and a half, he chooses to go with the lings (which will have a lot more value at that timing). Because of this, my worker count gains a lead again while he builds non-drone units. All I have to do is go home with my units (or hide them in a corner) and build a full wall, and I'm infinitely far ahead.
Unfortunately, I screw up the wall by not finishing it in time, and a bunch of speedlings dart through a pylon-sized crack which should have been filled, and he kills 21 workers. So he gets his lead back, but it was only because I didn't finish the secondary wall and I also missed forcefields before letting 20 lings into my base. And, even then, I stabilize with a Void Ray and transition into double forges and a third. I eventually win this game due to my opponent's poor injects and bizarre commitment to muta/ling against chargelot/phoenix, but I want to show this game for the early moments, not so much the later game. You can do so much damage with just 2 Stalkers at the third and an overlord kill or two, and you can get away with walling off the ramp with the rocks against triple hatch if you play it correctly. Yes, it's hard; it requires that you're more active with your eyes and trigger finger on forcefields at the 8 minute mark, but difficulty has nothing to do with a strategy's validity--it only means that the player needs to improve to be worthy of the strategy.
On September 25 2012 11:17 ineversmile wrote: I have a couple more replays to add to this thread. This first one is how you should defend a baneling bust post-ling speed (which is actually a pretty late timing):
You definitely should put the first 2 pylons and gateway in your main base because they're safer against 6pools, and your core needs to go down ASAP when the gateway finishes so you can't use that to wall the low ground that quickly. However, if you put your third pylon adjacent to the low ground of your ramp and you put the second gateway on the other side of the ramp, there is a one unit choke point where you can park something to block things off. In this game, I cut the Zealot because I scout speed and I know that he's attempting a bust (rather than macro play) because I see him ignoring the pylon at his natural with his lings, so we trade farms with me coming ahead based on that information. The next step is to get a 2nd gas and a sentry immediately after the first stalker, then to get a Stargate when gas allows and hug your ramp.
Don't skip the Nexus; if he overmakes speedlings and cancels it then you're ahead in economy and tech in 1base vs 1base...but if he just speedling expands then you need to punish that by having a relatively even expansion timing but with a higher worker count. After you throw up the Nexus, you can either go for a wall-off at your bigger ramp (like I did in this game because it's Ohana), or you can wall to your Nexus. It's a risk-reward scenario based upon when you feel like your opponent missed a specific timing and you think you can get away with something. In this case, the bane bust came a little later than it could have, and it could have been even earlier without ling speed--but notice that I would have been safe to either because I was close enough to my small choke point that I could back up and play defense, warp in a couple zealots, and then boost a Void Ray to end his pressure for good.
This is a much less map-dependent, much more economical method of dealing with Gas/Pool openings from the zerg. Rather than transitioning into a FFE and getting a really, really slow cannon, you just go into double gas ASAP and get sentries, then make a wall-off that's much more logical for opening with Stalkers. You don't need a full-blown wall-off at your natural ramp when you're opening 13 gate 15 gas. Plus, if you want to be even more safe, you can get that first Zealot and boost it instead of that extra probe boost that I did in this game. Don't cut probes or delay the Core for it, though...just build it when you have 100 minerals on it.
-----
Here's a game where I play against Hatch first with a gas reactive to seeing my gateway opener and a third hatch:
Notice that I have a probe lead from his Hatchery timing forward, and he only makes up for it with a full round of drones that finishes at 5:35 when we're both tied at 24 workers each. My nexus has 23 seconds before it's finished, and I'm pressuring his third with a couple of stalkers. He has to either cancel the hatchery or make a bunch of lings. Since his speed timing is due to finish in a minute and a half, he chooses to go with the lings (which will have a lot more value at that timing). Because of this, my worker count gains a lead again while he builds non-drone units. All I have to do is go home with my units (or hide them in a corner) and build a full wall, and I'm infinitely far ahead.
Unfortunately, I screw up the wall by not finishing it in time, and a bunch of speedlings dart through a pylon-sized crack which should have been filled, and he kills 21 workers. So he gets his lead back, but it was only because I didn't finish the secondary wall and I also missed forcefields before letting 20 lings into my base. And, even then, I stabilize with a Void Ray and transition into double forges and a third. I eventually win this game due to my opponent's poor injects and bizarre commitment to muta/ling against chargelot/phoenix, but I want to show this game for the early moments, not so much the later game. You can do so much damage with just 2 Stalkers at the third and an overlord kill or two, and you can get away with walling off the ramp with the rocks against triple hatch if you play it correctly. Yes, it's hard; it requires that you're more active with your eyes and trigger finger on forcefields at the 8 minute mark, but difficulty has nothing to do with a strategy's validity--it only means that the player needs to improve to be worthy of the strategy.
Thanks a lot for the replays, I really liked your play. Especially the confidence in the game on ohana, I would´ve walled before the nexus but now I learned you don´t always have to. 2nd game was a bit weird. Sucks you had so many probes killed but gj on the come back. Had a good laugh at him trying to blow up your 3rd nexus with banelings, sucks he succeed later. gg though. I´m too sure I like your nautral wall on cloud kingdom though, I much prefer the common wall at the choke. Do you think this wall gives you and advantage the normal wall doesnt give you?
Yeah, I feel like the moment you're not playing with balls of steel, that's when you let the zergs take control of the game. Zerg is meant to be pressured and screwed with; given tough decisions instead of easy ones. That's my philosophy, anyhow. Maybe it's safer to get the zealot against gas/pool (or map-dependent), but lately I have been playing a bit on the greedy side to push the envelope. Still, though...just look at the way that the Koreans play TvZ. They go up to 3-4 Orbitals and cut corners. They skip wall-offs or half-ass them sometimes. They are in the dark way more than we are, and then roach/bane busts happen and players like MKP and Maru hold them--barely, but they still hold them. I feel like there is no excuse for Protoss being forced into playing more defensively than Terran does against zerg, and my playstyle completely reflects that idea.
I like the further wall-off on Cloud Kingdom more than the one at the natural, and I have a handful of reasons. The first and foremost one is that I intend to take a third almost every game and I want that secondary wall-off anyways, whereas the backup wall where you would FFE isn't something I actually need. The speedling timing for standard 15 hatch 16 pool with non-FFE scouting is about 8 minutes in, and then I also keep a good count of the drones/queens/defense/gases built due to my stalker pressure, so I basically know how many lings are out before speed, I have an idea about whether that second/third queen have been hitting all their injects or spreading creep, and that kinda tells me how many larvae he's going to morph in the next wave that could either be lings or drones. I try to put a pylon on the map and be prepared for the 8 minute timing, and if that doesn't hit I use a warp-in to check the third saturation which indicates how safe or greedy I should play.
Dealing with that 8 minute speed timing is actually fine with the further wall-off because you can just put the 4th or 5th pylon on the high ground, like I did, and then put 2 more 3x3 structures (Gate/forge/twilight etc) and be ready to close the gap before lings come. To be really safe, you should probably just seal it off completely either with a Zealot or a pylon in the hole, and then go do all that macro at that point in time (boosting stuff and deciding tech paths=looking away from your minimap for vital seconds and it needs to happen right after that timing window when speed finishes. It would have been really, really easy to do that in the replay I posted, but I'm only human and I made that mistake. I mean, I knew the gas timing, I knew I needed to be ready, but I just didn't finish the wall-off when I was only a step away. So, if anything, the wall-off at the rocks initially is fine, and then you have enough time to stop speedlings from a standard triple hatch style. You don't actually need to do the secondary wall-off that soon, though--and that's the key thing here. If I had seen that he was droning and building spines, I wouldn't have walled off, there--I would have done it at my third about 2 minutes later and used those minerals to just build another nexus.
I also don't actually want to wall-off against some roach timings, by the way. I'm playing a chargelot-based army and I need to set up concaves and surrounds, so funneling them into choke points isn't going to play to my strengths. So that's a reason why I don't want a wall-off, in case my opponent isn't going for heavy ling play. That's the main reason why I'm not a fan of the wall-off when it's against triple hatch. I did the secondary wall-off in that game (even if it was a little incomplete) because he built a ton of lings to deal with my stalkers and it was obvious that he should just use lings to try to get back into the game, but if I see droning/lots of defense/queens/gases/even early roaches, I really don't want to build that wall yet. So for those situations, it's way more efficient to wall-off the rocks ramp, go take my third, and park my army at it so that they only have to fight in one location.
First time ever trying it, he's top eight plat, I'm plat as well (second game of the new season for me so with the new and improved ranking unsure exactly how high in plat I'll be, I was 7th in my division last season).
He scouts that this is gateway first and panics HARD. Throws down 6 spines in his main
With people as terrible as that, any low master can get a flawless victory doing anything he damn well pleases, 2base carrier would be my weapon of choice though, more fun
6 spines? Spine costs 150 minerals and a larvae. Committing 900 minerals and 6 larvae at such an early point to defending yourself on 1 base? Protoss can double expand and build a zealot, and you have nothing whatsoever to threaten him with. He's up 2 bases with the army advantage and equal tech. Quite simply any safe expand that doesnt hit a supply block or 500 resources before 100 supply should crush anything that any zerg of any skill level could possibly follow up with after building 6 spines in his main at the ~4 minute mark.
Gateway expands will be the standard come Hots (Due to the Mothership Core). I've already started practicing this build because of this. Also Stargates will be even more relevant in Hots so I think Naniwa is ahead of the curve on this one.
On September 28 2012 11:21 R3demption wrote: Gateway expands will be the standard come Hots (Due to the Mothership Core). I've already started practicing this build because of this. Also Stargates will be even more relevant in Hots so I think Naniwa is ahead of the curve on this one.
Planning a build out for HotS is a horrible, horrible idea. We don't know what units will be or will not be in that game. We don't know if the Mothership Core will actually still exist or if those abilities (key one being Recall) will go into other units/buildings for Protoss. The expansion beta doesn't have a genuine metagame because, even at higher levels, people are playing to try things out more than they are to win, so the build order you come up with could be very sloppy and still win games against experimental builds...but be tragically unrefined and lose hard to dedicated, actual builds.
Can we just stick to WoL discussion, where it's already complicated enough trying to refine the plans to deal with gas/pool openings and how/when to take a third?
On September 28 2012 11:21 R3demption wrote: Gateway expands will be the standard come Hots (Due to the Mothership Core). I've already started practicing this build because of this. Also Stargates will be even more relevant in Hots so I think Naniwa is ahead of the curve on this one.
Planning a build out for HotS is a horrible, horrible idea. We don't know what units will be or will not be in that game. We don't know if the Mothership Core will actually still exist or if those abilities (key one being Recall) will go into other units/buildings for Protoss. The expansion beta doesn't have a genuine metagame because, even at higher levels, people are playing to try things out more than they are to win, so the build order you come up with could be very sloppy and still win games against experimental builds...but be tragically unrefined and lose hard to dedicated, actual builds.
Can we just stick to WoL discussion, where it's already complicated enough trying to refine the plans to deal with gas/pool openings and how/when to take a third?
On September 28 2012 18:56 Sated wrote: I much prefer NonY's 2 Gate Sentry FE -> Stargate Opening since it's a lot safer, and also since the transitions out of it are a lot more refined. Importantly, this opening also gives you a good timing at which you can kill the Zerg's third base if they attempt to take one quickly (5 Zealots and 3 Sentries attacking the third base at ~7:30), and I personally think it is really important for Gateway openings to be able to pressure Zerg opponents into making units they don't want to make and into expanding later than they otherwise would against a FFE since you won't have the economy to match them in a passive game.
Can you elaborate about how the 2gate Sentry expo is safer? What is it safer against, in your opinion? To me, the only opening that makes me want to sentry expand is gas/pool, which you can still hold with 1 gate. The difference between being 'safe' and being 'safer' is a matter of spending more money on defense and being behind against eco play.
If you 1gate expo, you have a stalker at 22 supply, a Nexus after stalker, and then 1-2 more stalkers. You can hunt overlords, take watchtowers, check the third, force a bunch of crappy slow lings, force spines, and even force a number of missed injects due to queens being out of position and/or using energy for other, more defensive abilities. That pressure happens long before the 7:30 mark, it costs way less money, it doesn't slow your tech at all, and it's not as big a commitment if your opponent thwarts the attack. In fact, the 7:30 mark is the time when you should be getting the Hell out of Dodge with the Stalker pressure, since speed commonly finishes just under 8 minutes when gas is taken reactively due to your gateway opener being scouted. And, the most important difference here: If you pressure with Stalkers that early and your opponent opened 15/16 pool/hatch (or vice versa), there isn't any chance he'll thwart your attack. It always does damage, even against a completely prepared opponent. Oh, you lost 3-4 drones to stalkers? Worthwhile attack. You lost a queen? Worthwhile attack. You had to cancel your third base or delay it completely? Worthwhile attack. You had to make a bunch of lings instead of drones? Worthwhile attack. You built a couple extra lings and a spine? Worthwhile attack.
I completely agree with the concept of pressure, but I think you can get away with way more if you build Stalkers first, then build sentries later to coincide with the gas timing of your opponent. If you scout gas/pool, you can just transition into 2gate Sentry expo upon seeing the gas timing. You just go Stalker-->Nexus-->Sentry-->Pylon+2nd Gas-->2nd Gate on low ground to form that narrow wall-off at your main ramp, and you are safe from the ling and bling timings that way. Worst comes to worst, he overmakes lings and you have a higher worker count on one base, so you can just cancel the natural temporarily and then retake it when you build more of an army and push out...not a big deal.
Bottomline: I feel like the way a 2gate Sentry expo should be used is as a reaction to scouting early gas from the zerg. Otherwise, you don't need the second gate or the early sentries at all. Only gas makes forcefields necessary.
Granted, this is my opinion, but I'm up for a debate. That is the point of a strategy forum, after all...if I'm wrong, I would love to learn why--and improve my game understanding by doing so.
On September 29 2012 23:06 Sated wrote:The safety the Sentry-based expansion gives you is against aggressive gas-openings. For instance, I was actually 7 Roach Rushed twice yesterday (much to my surprise) and NaNiwa's build would've lost me the game. Other problems you could have are against openings where the opponent floods you with Speedlings very early on as you'll almost certainly lose your Nexus with only 1 Gateway worth of units, and against Baneling busts you're going to have a lot of problems without a substantial number of Sentries to hold your ramp with.
Well, let's look at each timing, one at a time. I'm going to use this thread as my main source of timing information for what I'm unsure about, which is things like odd pool timings and roach rush variants, etc.
A 7RR has 6 Roaches @4:43, 7th @4:50. Unless I'm mistaken, that means they finish before the 5 minute mark, but then they have to walk across the map. That's a lot longer of a walk for 2.25 speed units than it was when we had far crappier maps on ladder. If you think about how long it takes to send a group of zealots, stimless bio, or off-creep hydras across Daybreak/Cloud Kingdom, if you just check the front of their base you'll probably see the roaches leave in time to react. And if you're already sitting on 2 stalkers with a third or a sentry in production, you should be able to go out on the map and kite the roaches with your stalkers before going back up your natural ramp and potentially setting a trap with a forcefield. Then you're dealing with 3 or 4 Roaches, not 7. 7 Roaches is a dangerous group of harassment units. 3 or 4 Roaches? You can kite those to death with 3 stalkers if you're smart and you play the terrain to your advantage. At worst? He still has 5 full-health roaches because you couldn't set a trap, so you just pull some probes, surround them, and trade maybe 3 or 4 probes for his army and maintain a worker lead while you're ahead in expanding. It's not like he can afford speed...he did a 7RR. He's broke. A ling follow-up means slow lings, which just suck against gateway units.
Speedling openings vary. The time from start of gas to finished speed is 3:15, so if you scout the timing at any point from start of gas to checking how much has been harvested (and the number of drones on gas when you check), you can very easily estimate a speed timing. All you have to do is have a solid barricade set up by the time speed finishes, so you can block the ramp to your main and make sure lings don't flood in. It doesn't matter where you hold your ramp, so long as you make sure it's airtight. I have demonstrated that you can hold the bottom of your main ramp with a pylon and any generic building, with one unit blocking the gap on hold position. On a tournament map with the sunken depot, this is obviously more complicated--but still doable. With a 14/14, the speed should finish somewhere between 5:15 and 5:30, so you have lots of time to get that wall up before speed hits. The main thing here is having a preconceived idea of what your anti-speedling wall looks like on each map, so when you scout gas you don't have to start the trial-and-error emergency wall process only to find that there's a gap or you don't have the money to build what you want, etc.
Then there's baneling busts. Off of essentially 1-base economy from the zerg, if there are banelings, there isn't any money for roaches. So it's either speed or no-speed. No speed means the lings themselves aren't actually a threat to stalkers, so by just building stalkers and not letting banelings blow up on a group of workers, you only really care about the lings...which you should be able to defend with stalkers+probe micro. This is why usually baneling busts work in tandem with speedlings, since you bust open some part of the wall and let the ants pour in quickly. This also means that you know the following has to happen: There's a 14/14 or even earlier gas timing, you know speed is generally sometime after the 5 minute mark, and if you can scout his gas late enough then seeing guys on gas after 100 for speed is a big indicator that he's making other units. Long story short: You're defending a speedling attack, but now you just need to make sure your wall-off doesn't lose to banelings. You can do this by using the Pylon+Gate (or whatever other random building you want) walling off the low ground ramp with a stalker blocking it, then have a sentry behind on the ramp. Bane busts usually involve around 6 banes and 14 lings at your door at 5:20, so you just want to block your ramp, force him to bane bust the pylon, then use a forcefield to keep him from coming upstairs. Then you either use a second forcefield and delay the lings further, or you go onto the next plan: walling off again. You can do this by camping your ramp carefully with some units on hold position, then building another wall on top of the ramp. The next wall doesn't have to hold against more banelings because it takes a minute and a half to get 6 more banelings off of 1 gas, and that's just to morph them...which also takes time. By the time a second wave of banes would hit you, you have warpgate tech done with 0 boosts and you're halfway through cooldown, to give you an idea of where you stand positionally.
I know there are also 3 Roach+Speedling all-ins, which hit at a similar time and with a similar power level to baneling busts, although the roaches give the bust a greater amount of reach and it presents a different type of challenge. I haven't honestly played much against this opening in a long time, so this needs to be figured out...but I think if you can stop baneling busts, you can stop this bust as well.
Let's think of more all-ins to worry about, to dissect, and then to stop worrying about.
Still, you're right to say that you can switch into a 2 Gate Sentry Expand based on scouting information. That's also a very viable option. The only problem with that is that the 2 Gate Sentry Expand delays scouting for a long time in order to hit the required timings properly (I usually scout after throwing down my Gateway, but NonY often doesn't scout until throwing down his second Pylon or even his Cybernetics Core), so if you're going to perform a 2 Gate Sentry Expand in an optimal manner then you have to more-or-less make that decision from the start of the game.
I think that NonY is a very smart player but his opening and his general playstyle seems to be a lot more about playing out a build order than it does playing against an actual opponent. This game isn't solitaire, especially against zerg. That's why I think that it's best to play a pressure-based opening against zerg to keep him honest, but also to have specific preset defenses to fall back to when you see aggression on its way. And the only way you can get away with this is by going out there and getting the information. NonY's build delays its scouting a lot because it's so defensive, it doesn't matter if you scout an all-in coming because you'll deflect it regardless if you don't fall asleep. But it also doesn't mess with larva or overlords or queens until after the 7 minute mark, and if your opponent puts up a defense that deals with 5 sentries and a zealot moving out, your pressure doesn't do anything and you're pretty far behind. Considering that, I think that if it's at all possible to only reactively move to a sentry expand against speedling timings, then I would never 2gate Sentry expo if I could avoid it. And that's about where I stand. So if the timings aren't right for what he has been doing, then I want to find new timings.
Are you honestly talking about Zerg one base (or insanely low econ in general) allins against a gate/cyber opening (and zerg onebasing in general)? In which universe are they still meaningful in any way shape or form at a reasonable level?
Also, in which universe is NonY's build super defensive when he consistently moves out before 7 minutes with 5 zealots and 2 sentries? It's about as defensive (in terms of resource commitment and timing) to a 4gate +1 zealot pressure of FFE...
On September 30 2012 01:02 Sated wrote: I think you're really trivialising the micro and game-sense required to defend those all-ins with this build. For example, it's definitely possible to kite Roaches across the map with Stalkers if that's all you have to do, but will you be able to hit all of the other timings at the same time? A lot of people won't be able to do that and I certainly wouldn't back myself to be able to do that. Good for you if your APM is that stellar, but mine isn't.
When you see a Marine/SCV all-in come your way in PvT, it's your responsibility to kite those marines backwards to stall for time and weaken them a bit before they get to your base. If you have Stalkers out on the map and you see it coming, yet you don't actually try to kite them, it's your own fault. (I mean 'you' in a broader and less literal sense here, of course...nothing personal.) The same goes for kiting speedless Roaches, which move the same speed as Marines and have shorter range. Stutter-stepping stalkers is actually really simple because they shoot very slowly in comparison to most other ranged units, so I don't think this requires phenomenal micro. All it requires is that you babysit your units without botching macro.
Moreover, it sounds like both your Speedling and Baneling defences rely on defending your main ramp. That's all well and good, but you're still going to lose your Nexus. Ideally, I wouldn't want to be losing my Nexus.
If he commits to more than a dozen speedlings, you can afford to spend 100 minerals on a cancelled Nexus because his drone count will be garbage and you're fine on 1-base. The key is finding a way to break the speedling contain and re-expand, then figure out how to pressure him. This usually means getting a Void Ray to defend your natural and then pressuring him with air units if he drones up.
But it also doesn't mess with larva or overlords or queens until after the 7 minute mark, and if your opponent puts up a defense that deals with 5 sentries and a zealot moving out,
This is wrong, NonY's current build pushes out with 2 Sentries and 5 Zealots with 2 Sentries at home for defence. 5 Zealots can kill a lot of Zerglings if micro'd correctly, so it is nearly always cost-inefficient for the Zerg to defend against that poke if they tried to take a third base without Roaches. Not that this has much to do with the general point.[/quote]
Oh, sorry, I had the numbers flipped. Still, I don't think that 5 Zealots and 2-3ish Sentries is a force dangerous enough that I would bend over backwards and not scout until after Core to hit that timing. I think you could do better than that, to be honest. You also dump a lot of gas into Sentries and and expo later with that build, so you're delaying both your expansion and your tech by playing safer. Yes, the Zealot/Sentry attack is fine, but I don't think it's anything to write home about. Does that put us a bit more on the same page?
On September 30 2012 01:02 Teoita wrote: Are you honestly talking about Zerg one base (or insanely low econ in general) allins against a gate/cyber opening (and zerg onebasing in general)? In which universe are they still meaningful in any way shape or form at a reasonable level?
We see 6-7pools from Zergs in GSL all the time, and we see Seed and some other high level Korean Protosses mix in gateway openers as well, in that match-up. It's not like high level Zergs don't cheese Protosses in tournaments; it's just that the early pool is a better cheese for a FFE-centered metagame. But if the gateway openers start showing up more, then what will zergs do? They'll go to gas cheeses instead, since gas openings are better against gateway openings. If Gateway first ever becomes really popular, then there will be a metagame shift and Protosses will have to deal with the imminent Zerg reaction of using earlier speed in a large percentage of games.
Today, the 6pool. Tomorrow, gas builds. You can't go into tournaments and expect people not to cheese...that's just ridiculous. The question is how you deal with cheese when it comes. Right now, the gas openings are very rare--but occasionally, they happen. But if we do come to a point in the road when 13 gate is seeing a lot of high level play, then that's all going to change. What do we do in a few months when this happens? A while ago, every zerg on the block would go for a 12 minute max in PvZ and most of the time Protoss just fell apart to the attack. How much has that fallen off? Exactly.
Also, in which universe is NonY's build super defensive when he consistently moves out before 7 minutes with 5 zealots and 2 sentries? It's about as defensive (in terms of resource commitment and timing) to a 4gate +1 zealot pressure of FFE...
He moves out before 7, but the pressure hits after 7 and you blatantly show your hand as you move across the map with a bunch of 2.25 speed units. So the zerg has time to react because he'll see you from the moment you leave your base, and if he stalls you on the map for a few seconds then he can get defense up. I think the pressure move is fine, but it's pretty late and very simple to scout. If it had a warp prism built-in to the build or something else to make it less blatant, I think it would be more effective against zergs who pay attention, which are the zergs that concern me.
And that opening is very defensive before that. You take a later Nexus than you need to, and you build multiple sentries regardless of what your opponent is doing. Due to both of these factors, your economy and tech are not what they could be against standard zerg openings where they take their gas reactively and speed hits somewhere just before 8 minutes. Of course, the sentry expo is safer against the gas/pool builds and Gas-trick Roach Rushes, but it's not safer against the economy builds. It's very defensive until that move-out, and if that move-out doesn't work then you're not in a happy position.
6pool on ffe maps is a whole different animal than one base roach rushes or baneling busts WHEN SCOUTING A GATE/CYBER OPENING. I can't remember the last tournament game in which it happened.
Any opening that doesn't get stalkers is going to be defensive early on for obvious reasons. That said, even if you do go fast stalker you can't do that much damage against someone competent. At best you force out 10 or so lings and a spine, unless he doesn't scout and is completely taken off guard. I'm not saying it's bad, just that it's not gamebreaking. Besides, you need a good amount of sentry energy for the vast majority of timing attacks or to hold a third, so there's a tradeoff there. Going fast stalker means it's far harder to put pressure on in the midgame like NonY does because you have less sentry energy available.
Moving out at 7 minutes off gateway expand shows off your hand as much as doing zealot pressure and delaying taking your extra gasses. Yes, zerg should have a decent idea of what is coming at him, but he still needs a very specific reaction to at least come out even.
No matter how you look at it, teching to a is slow off of a vast majority of gateway/cyber openings, stargate into expand or dt into expand being the notable exceptions. And even then, FFE gets its tech about 30-40 seconds later. If you don't go stargate into expand (or expand into stargate, whatever), your tech is slowed down with a TON of gateway first builds. Remember Losira's timing and how much it constricted protoss play when it first came out?
On September 30 2012 02:33 Sated wrote: I think the overall theme here is that you like playing greedier and I like playing safer. For example, you speak about Stalker micro against Marine/SCV all-ins, but I usually open with a passive 2 Gate Fast Obs Expand or an aggressive 3 Gate Expand vs. Terran so I couldn't care less about that type of all-in. I suppose what I like are well-thought out styles that rarely require you to do something out of the way against an aggressive opponent, which is why I prefer NonY's build.
I'm not going to bother engaging your points because you're not going to convince me that you're right and vice-versa. Well, I don't actually think there is a "right" here since it's all down to preference, but you get the idea; this is purely a stylistic issue.
I respectfully disagree. I think that one opening is superior to the other, and after I find out which one is better through the use of science, I want to use that opening. Right now, I think that opening stalkers is better against everything except the gas aggression builds from the zerg. That's an opinion, but it's also a hypothesis. If the stalker opening can be developed to have specific responses to each of the various busts and rushes, then what does the sentry opening have as leverage? Nothing. It's worse against macro play, it's about the same against 6-8 pools, and it's only really better against early gas openings--but if it's proven that it's not better, then that makes it obsolete because there's just a better gateway opener if that's true.
On September 30 2012 02:34 Teoita wrote: 6pool on ffe maps is a whole different animal than one base roach rushes or baneling busts WHEN SCOUTING A GATE/CYBER OPENING. I can't remember the last tournament game in which it happened.
Planned cheese is planned cheese. If people actually ever go Gateway first in tournaments more than just to mix it up in a series, then zergs are going to respond with different cheeses. Put yourself in the zerg's shoes: You're playing a best of 3 and you're 1-1. The protoss opened 13 gate in both games. If you want to cheese and you know a little bit about dealing with gateway openers, what would you use? Probably not a 6pool, which is hardcountered by this guy's opening. No, you would rather open with gas if you want to be aggressive, which makes it the protosss's responsibility to be aware of how to handle gas-based aggression just as he would handle a 6pool or proxy hatch. It's not about the popularity of the opening, it's about why your opponent would use that opening and what kind of damage control you do to make up for it.
And I did see a KESPA guy use a slow ling baneling bust on Cloud Kingdom about a couple of weeks ago on GOM TV. I don't remember who the players specifically were, but Khaldor and Wolf were casting and they were laughing about how ridiculous it was that the zerg totally baited the protoss into moving his sentry out of position with an overlord being sent into the main. That was a baneling bust against a FFE, and I believe it was in the WCS Korea series. I would look it up, but I don't have a GOM ticket at the moment.
Any opening that doesn't get stalkers is going to be defensive early on for obvious reasons. That said, even if you do go fast stalker you can't do that much damage against someone competent. At best you force out 10 or so lings and a spine, unless he doesn't scout and is completely taken off guard. I'm not saying it's bad, just that it's not gamebreaking. Besides, you need a good amount of sentry energy for the vast majority of timing attacks or to hold a third, so there's a tradeoff there. Going fast stalker means it's far harder to put pressure on in the midgame like NonY does because you have less sentry energy available.
Forcing 10 lings and a spine is extremely groundbreaking. That's like killing 6 drones. I'm happy with killing 3 or 4 drones, directly or indirectly. If I kill 3 drones and go home with my stalkers, when the inject's worth of new drones kicks in it puts him 3 drones behind when I'm at ~24 workers...instead of it being an even worker count. That's absolutely massive. This is also why every missed inject is like 4 less drones, so if you force the queen down from the main for 25 energy regen's worth of time or you force a creep tumor, that's 4 less drones each time. If you kill a queen? Jackpot. Less injects=less drones. And the fact that you're doing this with just 0-1 zealot and 2-3 stalkers...well, that's really, really early to be doing that much damage in a macro PvZ, and you're even getting great intel because you're right on his front door, and information is ripe for the picking.
Moving out at 7 minutes off gateway expand shows off your hand as much as doing zealot pressure and delaying taking your extra gasses. Yes, zerg should have a decent idea of what is coming at him, but he still needs a very specific reaction to at least come out even.
We live in an era of 7gate Immortal/Sentry all-ins and before that, we lived in an era of +1 Zealot 4gates after FFE. Zergs are well aware of how to handle both of those units. I think the pressure is fine, but I don't see it being so gamebreaking that you would choose this opening over the Stalker pressure opening. The timing isn't going to kill a zerg, it's just going to put pressure on and maybe cancel a third, putting you in a better position. That's all the stalker pressure is designed to do, too--it just happens earlier so the scale of damage is smaller.
No matter how you look at it, teching to a is slow off of a vast majority of gateway/cyber openings, stargate into expand or dt into expand being the notable exceptions. And even then, FFE gets its tech about 30-40 seconds later. If you don't go stargate into expand (or expand into stargate, whatever), your tech is slowed down with a TON of gateway first builds. Remember Losira's timing and how much it constricted protoss play when it first came out?
I've been talking about expand into stargate the entire time, which means both a faster Nexus and a faster Stargate than you would have with the NonY 2gate sentry build. That's better on two different levels. What does the NonY build have? More safety against fast gas zerg openings. Both builds have pokes to apply pressure when it's warranted, so that's also basically a wash. So the way I see it, if you can make 1gate Stalker expo safe against the gas openings, then it's strictly better to NonY's build. This isn't a personal preference thing, this isn't a style thing, this is a facts and numbers thing. If it can work, it's better. That's all that matters to me.
I'm a (near) high Master's Toss, maintaining rank 14ish this season. I've been doing Gateway expands exclusively for the past few weeks vs Zerg. It is a safe build. The only small coin flip I do is getting the Nexus before Pylon, which auto-loses to a 6 Pool on a 2 player map (or if they correctly guess where you are first time on a 4 player map).
The build is Gateway, Nexus, Pylon at natural, Assim, Core, one Chrono on Core, build 2 Zealots, using 1 Chrono.
This is where scouting comes into play. If the Zerg has/gets a gas for Ling speed, I immediately drop a Forge and queue a Stalker. I drop a Cannon and finish my wall-off with another Gate and a Pylon, with basic scouting I wing it from there.
Vs a greedy Zerg who plays standard 3 Hatch no gas (it happens, current meta Zergs do it blindly if they end up scouting you last on Entombed, for example), I have several options. I can continue to Chrono my Core, stop Probe prod for 10 sec and drop 3 more Gates at my ramp and 4 Gate (I queue a Stalker in my first Gate AFTER dropping the 3 Gates I this version of the build; the Stalker finishes just before WG finishes. He can stroll across the map and aid my 4 Gate, or close off my wall with hold pos if I fear a Ling runby (situation dependant). The 4 Gate warps in units at 6 20 ish, so it's sick fast, all the while probing at home, dropping tech etc. It's quite macro/micro intensive, but rewarding when pulled off.
The final, third, main variation of the build is this: I scout gas for Ling speed, but my opponent drops his/her third soon after. I can decide a few things. Make a Stalker immediately after 2 Zealots and just pressure with those units, forcing Lings (still slow by this time), and drop a Forge at home (after that do as I said earlier). I can also drop a Forge, then 2 Gates and do some 3 Gate pressure, establishing a Pylon with 2 Zealots and doing some damage.
Versus early Pools, pull Probes and delay till Zealot is out, continue Chronoing Zealots, and with good Probe micro, you can even save your natural! Alternatively (if you played greedily and did Gate Nexus Pylon on a (smaller) 2 player map, and your opponent 6 Pools, the Lings will hit just as your Pylon finishes; this means you Zealot is VERY late), you can try this. Drop a Forge in your main, Chrono Zealots and fight with Probes, drop a Cannon in your min line. I like to use this method vs Zergs who smell blood and continue mass producing Lings, I lose my natural and Pylon, but with good Probe micro, I come out ahead (hopefully even worker count, but with a Forge and a Gateway, sometimes an Assim - every little helps ).
Hopefully this helps. I wrote this on my iPhone, so I apologise for any potential spelling errors (fu autocorrect!!! :D). Feel free to critique my builds, or comment, whatever.
On September 30 2012 07:39 Gumbi wrote: I'm a (near) high Master's Toss, maintaining rank 14ish this season. I've been doing Gateway expands exclusively for the past few weeks vs Zerg. It is a safe build. The only small coin flip I do is getting the Nexus before Pylon, which auto-loses to a 6 Pool on a 2 player map (or if they correctly guess where you are first time on a 4 player map).
You have to gamble against something, but would you use this same gamble in tournaments where people scout out your games over the weekend and talk about your style? Or in a BoX series, would you just use this gamble sometimes and play safe during others? You can bet if you're holding a winning record, people will start countering your build if they can.
The build is Gateway, Nexus, Pylon at natural, Assim, Core, one Chrono on Core, build 2 Zealots, using 1 Chrono.
Seems like a Yuffe expand where you delay the Zealots for gas and an earlier Core. The Yuffe does the same thing, only delays gas by probably a minute or so to your timing, but has those 2 Zealots out earlier so it's completely safe against 6pools with exactly the same Nexus timing you have.
Vs a greedy Zerg who plays standard 3 Hatch no gas (it happens, current meta Zergs do it blindly if they end up scouting you last on Entombed, for example), I have several options. I can continue to Chrono my Core, stop Probe prod for 10 sec and drop 3 more Gates at my ramp and 4 Gate (I queue a Stalker in my first Gate AFTER dropping the 3 Gates I this version of the build; the Stalker finishes just before WG finishes. He can stroll across the map and aid my 4 Gate, or close off my wall with hold pos if I fear a Ling runby (situation dependant). The 4 Gate warps in units at 6 20 ish, so it's sick fast, all the while probing at home, dropping tech etc. It's quite macro/micro intensive, but rewarding when pulled off.
That's actually a late 4gate timing for opening 13 gate. If you use the build from this thread, not a cut-corners Yuffe, you can have the 4gate before 6 minutes with 3 boosts on probes. Sure, 6:20ish is faster than a FFE warpgate timing, but that's irrelevant because opening FFE completely changes the pressure a zerg has to expect, and also changes the unit count/configuration required to hold a second Nexus from busts.
The final, third, main variation of the build is this: I scout gas for Ling speed, but my opponent drops his/her third soon after. I can decide a few things. Make a Stalker immediately after 2 Zealots and just pressure with those units, forcing Lings (still slow by this time), and drop a Forge at home (after that do as I said earlier). I can also drop a Forge, then 2 Gates and do some 3 Gate pressure, establishing a Pylon with 2 Zealots and doing some damage.
Let's see...13-17 gate-Nexus into Pylon, Gas, Core with 2 boosted Zealots...that means your first stalker comes out when my third stalker would pop out, which is when I check the clock to make sure I get out in time before speed finishes. So you're way too late to beat the normal speed timing if they overlord scouted you opening without a Forge and then responded by getting speed reactively upon the scouting, about right after he got his hatch+pool going. These timings just don't add up, dude. Plus, where are your replays of this? Pics or it didn't happen.
Versus early Pools, pull Probes and delay till Zealot is out, continue Chronoing Zealots, and with good Probe micro, you can even save your natural! Alternatively (if you played greedily and did Gate Nexus Pylon on a (smaller) 2 player map, and your opponent 6 Pools, the Lings will hit just as your Pylon finishes; this means you Zealot is VERY late), you can try this. Drop a Forge in your main, Chrono Zealots and fight with Probes, drop a Cannon in your min line. I like to use this method vs Zergs who smell blood and continue mass producing Lings, I lose my natural and Pylon, but with good Probe micro, I come out ahead (hopefully even worker count, but with a Forge and a Gateway, sometimes an Assim - every little helps ).
First of all, I thought you were just punting games to 6pools, so if you can't hold them in the first place, then why are you talking about holding them now? Get some consistency here or people might think that you're full of shit.
And second, this is overkill. If you open 13 gate and build a zealot as soon as you see lings rolling out across the map, you can pull probes for about 5-10 seconds to delay the lings and then the zealot pops out and the lings can't engage your workers anymore. Then you get a Stalker and boost it, and when that comes out you have control of your main base without needing probe pulls. All you have to do from there is check how much he's droned, check if he has gas or not, and then react accordingly. At no point in time do you need a forge and a cannon to hold a 6-10 pool if you're (allegedly) High Masters. You only use the cannon in your mineral line if you opened with a Forge first. Otherwise, getting a forge is something you do later when you want upgrades or want to protect your second and third bases.
Honestly, I think you actually are blowing hot air and you're not High Masters, and you don't use the opening you talked about at all. I came to this conclusion because:
1. You say one thing in one paragraph and then stronly contradict it in another, which is a red flag that you're probably lying/exaggerating. 2. Your timings don't sound accurate at all. Gate-Nexus-Pylon-Gas-Core, an arbitrary chrono on the Core when you don't have the 3. You don't know what a Yuffe is, even though your build is a modified Yuffe where you punt the early game to aggression, but then arbitrarily build a pair of zealots later on because...I don't know. Why do you make the irrelevant, delayed Zealots anyways? 4. There are no replays to back anything up.
I realise I did a long post and posted from memory mainly, though reading through it again it is mostly correct.
I said near high Master's. I'm 15th place now. Basicaly a sly way of implying that I'm not mid-Master's
I'll post up some replays.
My build is nani's modified 1 gate FE that he used vs DRG in the GSL ro8, except I generally drop the Core before chronoing the Zealot, and getting the Nexus before second Pylon. (nani makes up for at least some of these mins later by pulling (some) probes off gas).
Yuffe walls off the ramp with a Gate and Pylon at the bottom, right? And has an early scout? I play really greedily and don't scout 'til my Nexus is dropped (in the current meta maybe 60% (anecdotal) don't ecploit by 15 Hatching - not that it matters hugely).
Here is the worst possible scenario turning into an even macro game:
Those who say that this build will struggle vs 7rr because you only get one stalker don't have a clue what they are talking about. Your are obviously not going to play this build vs a zerg who gets 1. quick gas 2. no expo 3. roach warren And the thing is you will scout all of it, but even if you don't, only a fast gas is still a warning sign. You should just play another, more safe opening, because this will indeed lose to alot of different all ins if you don't react properly. If he tries to do a really sneaky build and delays his gas you WILL have the defense needed to beat the attack, so really, this is a 100% safe build as long as you only play vs later gas(by later gas I mean the very earliest when zerg first scout you going gateway first).
On October 02 2012 07:22 Lazermonkey wrote: Those who say that this build will struggle vs 7rr because you only get one stalker don't have a clue what they are talking about. Your are obviously not going to play this build vs a zerg who gets 1. quick gas 2. no expo 3. roach warren And the thing is you will scout all of it, but even if you don't, only a fast gas is still a warning sign. You should just play another, more safe opening, because this will indeed lose to alot of different all ins if you don't react properly. If he tries to do a really sneaky build and delays his gas you WILL have the defense needed to beat the attack, so really, this is a 100% safe build as long as you only play vs later gas(by later gas I mean the very earliest when zerg first scout you going gateway first).
Exactly. Your gameplan is to 1Gate Expo like it's PvT, but with a bit more aggressive of a poke. But if you see gas first, you transition to a different plan. Gateway openers, for better or worse, are more adaptive than the FFE. You have more freedom to build what you want at that early stage of the game, but that freedom also comes with the demand to adapt to situations--which means knowing how to adapt.
Recting properly really does come with practise. I botched a 6 Pool def in a recent game while 1 Gate FEing, ended up with only the slightest of edges. I had 4 Zealots, so I was going to poke my opponent and force tons of Lings while I walled off at home with a cannon. As I reached my opponent's ramp I was greeted by 6 Roaches + more on the way. I reacted we'll and lost only one Zealot. I started dropping cannons at home (only had one done at the time, no wall off yet). Despite the objective fact that my opponent wall going fully all in and that I had an most finished nexus, I didn't react appropriately. I only had maybe 15 workers, 3 on gas. I kept building workers, queued a sentry and stated dropping cannons at my ramp.
By the time the Roaches arrived, I had 1 cannon, 3 Zealots and 2 cannons on the way, one of which was almost done. I lost. I learned from my mistake. Queuing the sentry was the right idea, I had the gas, and it's only 50mins, though it wouldn't have ultimately decided the game. I should have pulled probes from gas, dropping cannons as fast as possible, pulled half my probes to delay the Roaches and engage at the bottom of the ramp. As it was I engaged with 3 Zealots next to my cannons and got rolled. I didn't react properly because it was an unusual, unpractised situation arising from a failed cheese. It was a very fragile situation.
It won't happen again, though, I have learned . I think I'll post the repay if its still in my recent reps. (If people want it).
Those who say that this build will struggle vs 7rr because you only get one stalker don't have a clue what they are talking about. Your are obviously not going to play this build vs a zerg who gets 1. quick gas 2. no expo 3. roach warren And the thing is you will scout all of it, but even if you don't, only a fast gas is still a warning sign. You should just play another, more safe opening, because this will indeed lose to alot of different all ins if you don't react properly. If he tries to do a really sneaky build and delays his gas you WILL have the defense needed to beat the attack, so really, this is a 100% safe build as long as you only play vs later gas(by later gas I mean the very earliest when zerg first scout you going gateway first).
So what you're saying is that you need to change to a safer build if you scout early gas/no expansion because you won't be able to defend against an all-in... whilst also saying that those who say this build struggles against such all-ins "don't have a clue".
Did you even read what you wrote before you posted..?
People who are dying to early all-ins doesn't got a clue because they think this is a bad build because it isn't safe when it actually is. It doesn't take a nuclear scientist to figure that one stalker cannot kill 7 roaches + a bunch of lings no matter how good your micro is, however, if you ever get into a situation like that it's your own fault. It's impicit that you don't go for this build when scouting something like that. Blaming the build is just like blaming a 1 gate - 3 nexus build in PvT because you lost to a 11/11 with it.
I hate the concept of being safe. If you go 3-gate sentry expo with 5 cannons at your nat your are obviously not going to die in some early agression. However you are extremly unsafe in the midgame as you have invested so much in crap and took a late nexus.
Moving forward...I haven't been playing for a few days, just to take a break from the game. I'm going to play some games today and see if I can perhaps find a practice partner to help me flesh out solutions to some of these more aggressive zerg openers.
I made serious errors in this game because it's the first I played today and I needed a warm-up. I missed probes regularly and didn't even put them into my natural gases until the mineral patches ran out at that base. Still, this is a pretty good example of how much you can do with this opening if you play it greedy and expand after just a stalker. With better mechanics, I would have had an even worker count for longer, and with more active Phoenix harass I could have gotten Queens earlier. Still, the main thing is that I knew what was going on at each point in the game.
What I want to point out from this game is just how strong Phoenixes are in the lategame against that Zerg deathball. Granted, he should have had at least one armor upgrade, but if you're actively trying to destroy the greater spire with prism harass then you can realistically pull off +3 weapons vs +1 armor for a large enough timing window that you can make 20+ Phoenixes and tear him apart. If he overmakes Corruptors and undermakes Broods, you can use Chargelots to push back the Infestors and give Phoenixes that breathing room they need to be able to kite the Corruptors without worry of being fungaled. If he undermakes Corruptors, your Phoenixes will kill his entire air army through the chain fungal because Brood are too slow to escape from Ranged Phoenixes (especially if you spread the Phoenixes out before engaging).
Anyways, this is how I play out lategame PvZ. I don't screw around with Mothership because I think that unit is more of a liability than an asset when it's in battles.
EDIT: I don't want to double post, so I'm going to edit in another replay. This is a game where I'm fully warmed up and my macro is much more watchable:
This is how you handle a roach rush. My scout dies, but I know that the earliest he can start his gas is 4 minutes in, which is when he starts it. That means the earliest ling speed could happen is 7:15, and busts tend to happen within a minute of that timing. I am fortunate with him sacking an ovie to check my main because it significantly supply blocks him, but it shouldn't have been that rough if he had paid attention and rebuilt that ovie. Still, that ovie kill happens all the time, which is why I check towers to see if Ovies are taking the normal route or some other route, so I can hunt them down.
In any case, I don't build a Zealot, I delay my second Stalker for a 24 Nexus, then I take a greedy wall-off, and I even have 2 Stalkers way out of position at his natural doing some harassment. Still, because I have Stargate and he went Roaches instead of Ling Speed, I trade a Nexus and a minimal number of units for his aggression and he can't take a third while I have total map control.
This attack looks way more deadly with ling speed and Roaches, but he can't have both of them AND not take an earlier gas, so if I had seen an early gas I would have obviously made a more conservative/complete wall-off and kept the stalkers at home after poking around the watchtowers. Either way, this is how you handle the attack if it's more reactive and comes from a gas after your scout leaves. If you remain calm, sac your nexus, save your probes, and micro your stalkers, you will come away with both a worker lead and tech lead.
On October 12 2012 08:32 ineversmile wrote: Playing some ladder: http://drop.sc/263796
I made serious errors in this game because it's the first I played today and I needed a warm-up. I missed probes regularly and didn't even put them into my natural gases until the mineral patches ran out at that base. Still, this is a pretty good example of how much you can do with this opening if you play it greedy and expand after just a stalker. With better mechanics, I would have had an even worker count for longer, and with more active Phoenix harass I could have gotten Queens earlier. Still, the main thing is that I knew what was going on at each point in the game.
What I want to point out from this game is just how strong Phoenixes are in the lategame against that Zerg deathball. Granted, he should have had at least one armor upgrade, but if you're actively trying to destroy the greater spire with prism harass then you can realistically pull off +3 weapons vs +1 armor for a large enough timing window that you can make 20+ Phoenixes and tear him apart. If he overmakes Corruptors and undermakes Broods, you can use Chargelots to push back the Infestors and give Phoenixes that breathing room they need to be able to kite the Corruptors without worry of being fungaled. If he undermakes Corruptors, your Phoenixes will kill his entire air army through the chain fungal because Brood are too slow to escape from Ranged Phoenixes (especially if you spread the Phoenixes out before engaging).
Anyways, this is how I play out lategame PvZ. I don't screw around with Mothership because I think that unit is more of a liability than an asset when it's in battles.
EDIT: I don't want to double post, so I'm going to edit in another replay. This is a game where I'm fully warmed up and my macro is much more watchable:
This is how you handle a roach rush. My scout dies, but I know that the earliest he can start his gas is 4 minutes in, which is when he starts it. That means the earliest ling speed could happen is 7:15, and busts tend to happen within a minute of that timing. I am fortunate with him sacking an ovie to check my main because it significantly supply blocks him, but it shouldn't have been that rough if he had paid attention and rebuilt that ovie. Still, that ovie kill happens all the time, which is why I check towers to see if Ovies are taking the normal route or some other route, so I can hunt them down.
In any case, I don't build a Zealot, I delay my second Stalker for a 24 Nexus, then I take a greedy wall-off, and I even have 2 Stalkers way out of position at his natural doing some harassment. Still, because I have Stargate and he went Roaches instead of Ling Speed, I trade a Nexus and a minimal number of units for his aggression and he can't take a third while I have total map control.
This attack looks way more deadly with ling speed and Roaches, but he can't have both of them AND not take an earlier gas, so if I had seen an early gas I would have obviously made a more conservative/complete wall-off and kept the stalkers at home after poking around the watchtowers. Either way, this is how you handle the attack if it's more reactive and comes from a gas after your scout leaves. If you remain calm, sac your nexus, save your probes, and micro your stalkers, you will come away with both a worker lead and tech lead.
Thanks for the replays, I enjoyed watching them. The game on Cloud Kingdom is how I always wanted pvz to be like from the protoss perspective. Lots of agression/harrasment rather than one or two timings attacks you rely on. I liked the heavy phoenix usage since he couldn't really afford a lot of hydras. I was constantly amazed how you won so many engagements, especially the ones at 19:40 and 24:10. I guess the upgrades helped a lot, you were quite a bit ahead in that. I think however that some storms wouldve turned the tieds even more in those fights though, especially since he had a lot of hydras. Extremely well played though nonetheless.
The game on daybreak was amazing. The fast 3rd was really smart, I will be trying that out in my games for sure. My goodness that lategame. It's amazing how good phoenix' are in high numbers and upgraded. I've always tried going storm heavy with zealots and immortals to prevent that whole gimmicky mothership/vortex play, but phoenix heavy seems so much stronger and harrasment oriented.
Here's a replay on me trying that style I described. It is still kind of relieing on winning big engagements and its not nearly as good with harrasment as a phoenix heavy style. However I think there's still a lot of micro involved that can give you the edge, which I like.
If you have more replays I would love to see them, especially phoenix heavy play.
On October 13 2012 22:46 JayPower wrote:Thanks for the replays, I enjoyed watching them. The game on Cloud Kingdom is how I always wanted pvz to be like from the protoss perspective. Lots of agression/harrasment rather than one or two timings attacks you rely on. I liked the heavy phoenix usage since he couldn't really afford a lot of hydras. I was constantly amazed how you won so many engagements, especially the ones at 19:40 and 24:10. I guess the upgrades helped a lot, you were quite a bit ahead in that. I think however that some storms wouldve turned the tieds even more in those fights though, especially since he had a lot of hydras. Extremely well played though nonetheless.
Thanks. A big problem I have with this strategy is that it's very difficult to keep up with certain aspects of macro while controlling Phoenixes and a number of armies simultaneously. Building probes, stargate units, and robo units and hitting warp-ins isn't that difficult, but it's a real challenge to make sure that I'm also keeping optimal saturation, that I have the right number of gateways, etc. Usually when I take another base I try to just sim-city it with ~3 gates, which solves that problem--but sometimes I don't have the opportunity to do that or I just mess it up. It's hard. Fortunately, the flipside of this is that I see so many places to improve my play, even though I'm winning games. To me, that means that this strategy is (a) constantly helping me to get better and (b) strong enough to win games at the mid-master level when I'm bungling all kinds of attacks and having far from perfect macro.
The game on daybreak was amazing. The fast 3rd was really smart, I will be trying that out in my games for sure. My goodness that lategame. It's amazing how good phoenix' are in high numbers and upgraded. I've always tried going storm heavy with zealots and immortals to prevent that whole gimmicky mothership/vortex play, but phoenix heavy seems so much stronger and harrasment oriented.
When you think about it, the Phoenix is the ultimate late-game unit. They cost the same as Corruptors, they have the same range, and while they lose in a straight-up fight against Corruptors they are also way faster, so you dictate where and when the fights happen. And they way in which they interact with Infestors is much like the way that Ghosts and Templar interact; they both can trap and kill each other or trade themselves for a ton of energy off of the opposing caster. If you need to go harass a base, Phoenixes will kill all of the drones at a base, even if there are 5 spores around it--that late in the game, +armor and +shields will let them tank so much damage you can trade a couple Phoenixes for 20 drones easily and then get out with the rest.
I feel like we Protosses need to be doing what Terran does against the Zerg Deathball in the late game: Get a bunch of Stargates and mass basic air-to-air fighters, taking back the sky. With superior upgrades from chronoboost, this is totally possible, especially if you go snipe the Spire(s).
If you have more replays I would love to see them, especially phoenix heavy play.
I go Stargate in almost every single PvZ, but I try not to post bad games. A lot of games just come down to the zerg seeing a gateway opener and then doing something stupid because they have no idea what to do against non-FFE openers. And then there's the decent number of games that I botch because this is a really technical playstyle and I should probably play a warmup game each session (and I should stop playing when I'm tired!). I'll try to put up some more replays soon, though, since you're interested.
http://drop.sc/264190
Here's a replay on me trying that style I described. It is still kind of relieing on winning big engagements and its not nearly as good with harrasment as a phoenix heavy style. However I think there's still a lot of micro involved that can give you the edge, which I like.
EDIT: I just watched the replay. That was some pretty clean play on your part! I liked how smooth your transitions were. I agree you could have done more with your Phoenixes, but you were focusing more on establishing a third and macroing properly, and it's not like your Phoenixes didn't pay for themselves and change. It was cool to see this opening played out into a more standard midgame style with blink and a Robo, which I haven't seen in a while (because basically nobody opens this way and games are sparse).
I do think that blocking the first hatchery with a pylon is incorrect, though. It delays the Core too much. I'm cool with blocking the third base sometimes, but honestly I think you should just let them have the hatchery and take your expo fast as well. Since you can outright get away with an expo after one stalker, I think it hurts you more than it hurts them. At least, that's my take on the matter. Maybe you have some thoughts about this, too. Seems worth discussion.
EDIT #2: Oh yeah, and one other thing I noticed in your game: You banked a lot of chrono early. I think you could boost probes way more than you did.
On August 22 2012 05:27 ittron wrote: A high-level protoss told me: Going mass ling off your 2 bases upon realizing that protoss is not getting a core after gate (going gateway nexus) will win the game right off the bat. Zealot block doesn't matter, protoss simply can't have enough units to deal with it. The protoss might kill 20 lings and expand the wall-off but the result is inevitable. He is baffeled that zergs have not realized this. Thoughts on that?
This appears to be true in my experience. If you don't get cannons after nexus or core right after gateway, and the zerg scouts you, they can easily start massing lings with whatever they opened and you'll lose your wall even if you try to reinforce it. That's why I would never recommend going Gate Nexus on any 2 player map. Even on a 4 player map, it's a risk if the zerg drone scouts you or their overlord sees you first.
On August 22 2012 05:27 ittron wrote: A high-level protoss told me: Going mass ling off your 2 bases upon realizing that protoss is not getting a core after gate (going gateway nexus) will win the game right off the bat. Zealot block doesn't matter, protoss simply can't have enough units to deal with it. The protoss might kill 20 lings and expand the wall-off but the result is inevitable. He is baffeled that zergs have not realized this. Thoughts on that?
This appears to be true in my experience. If you don't get cannons after nexus or core right after gateway, and the zerg scouts you, they can easily start massing lings with whatever they opened and you'll lose your wall even if you try to reinforce it. That's why I would never recommend going Gate Nexus on any 2 player map. Even on a 4 player map, it's a risk if the zerg drone scouts you or their overlord sees you first.
Is there a reason why you're quoting a post from a month and a half ago? Also, this build is not a YufFE; it gets a Core and at least one stalker before expanding. You in the right thread, dude?
On August 22 2012 05:27 ittron wrote: A high-level protoss told me: Going mass ling off your 2 bases upon realizing that protoss is not getting a core after gate (going gateway nexus) will win the game right off the bat. Zealot block doesn't matter, protoss simply can't have enough units to deal with it. The protoss might kill 20 lings and expand the wall-off but the result is inevitable. He is baffeled that zergs have not realized this. Thoughts on that?
This appears to be true in my experience. If you don't get cannons after nexus or core right after gateway, and the zerg scouts you, they can easily start massing lings with whatever they opened and you'll lose your wall even if you try to reinforce it. That's why I would never recommend going Gate Nexus on any 2 player map. Even on a 4 player map, it's a risk if the zerg drone scouts you or their overlord sees you first.
Is there a reason why you're quoting a post from a month and a half ago? Also, this build is not a YufFE; it gets a Core and at least one stalker before expanding. You in the right thread, dude?
Yes, I suppose it's off topic. I just think it's important to justify going gate core nexus instead of gate nexus, because many people try greedy gate nexus builds without realizing how easily punished it is.
No problem. I just thought you might have accidentally posted here, thinking it was another thread...happens to everyone sometimes.
I completely agree; I think that if you're going to open Gateway you shouldn't half-ass it. The core lets you do so much more, and it really speeds up the tech. You get a plenty good enough economy with a Core-->Nexus build if you just constantly make probes and boost 3-4 times.
This is a variation on dealing with standard pool/hatch into reactive gas before third hatch (which I think is the correct/middle of the road zerg response to gateway openers). I respond with a faster robo and delayed double stargate:
This should be a pretty good example of how to contain the Infestors repeatedly with Phoenixes+Obs in a macro game. I even botch it at ~22:30 and throw away 15 Phoenixes, but I kill a couple of them and keep their energy pool low. I shouldn't be this far ahead throughout the game, but because he goes Mutas, that puts him down over 1k/1k (because they basically get roflstomped) and his ground army was much more manageable.
I don't feel like this composition/style really wants to invest supply in Colossi, but I might start adding a Robo Bay in as I take the 4th to get Obs and Prism speed. This isn't the first time I've done Robo-->2xStargate, but I still haven't refined the timings and gas spending. This is kind of backwards for me; I'm accustomed to going Stargate-->double Forge-->Charge-->Robo-->1-2 extra Stargates.
EDIT: Here's another game against standard 15pool/16hatch into a reactive gas after scouting the Gateway opening. He doesn't try to pull any Muta crap, though, and instead techs to Hive. This is how I try to handle that situation:
Because I'm essentially playing Muta/Ling as Protoss, I can just out-maneuver Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor all day long. No, I don't always get to do as much damage to my opponent's tech, but they can't be guarding their tech and their new expos. This is what happens when they set up shop at their fourth and the main+natural are exposed.
Thanks again for the replays. I almost couldn't believe you won the game on cloud kingdom after your phoenix/warp prism harrasment started relatively late. But very well done overall. I really thought that this style was only possible if you were able to do at least some harrasment in the early-game with the phoenix.
The game on ohana was quite inspirational. Lots of things going, lost of unit compositions that seem effiecient. For example the addition of the voidrays with your harrasment is really smart since he doesn't really have anything to do about the voidray with the huge amount of phoenix around it (and the observer ofc, very important). I also need to get in the habbit of using warpprisms with my phoenix. I often time have that the zergs are turtling with just infestors and zerglings, some +1 zealots would do wonders for my harrasment.
I have some innovating replays as well of a phoenix heavy style but I do it quite different. I stay on 1 stargate for a long time but get the fleat beacon very early. I really feel the extra range increases my harrasment potential.
Here is a game that is quite straighforward about the style im using right now. I think however that I should either add more stalkers or immortals since I lost some ground armies due to my opponent's roach heavy composition.
This game is a good example of what happens when a zerg tries to keep his infestor count similair to your phoenix count; He won't have any gas to make anything else but zergling for the most part and will still not stand a chance against phoenix that are spread out.
On October 20 2012 05:39 JayPower wrote: Thanks again for the replays. I almost couldn't believe you won the game on cloud kingdom after your phoenix/warp prism harrasment started relatively late. But very well done overall. I really thought that this style was only possible if you were able to do at least some harrasment in the early-game with the phoenix.
I think harassment is really just there to keep your opponent from doing outrageous things. Most people who get Phoenixes in PvZ think of them as purely harassment tools, with the potential to counter Mutas. They get a Void or two and a handful of Phoenix, but then they never use the stargate for more than a stepping stool towards making a Mothership. But if protoss plays the way that you and I play, where Phoenixes are a central unit to the army, then that completely changes the equation. You don't actually have to do damage with them; you only need to do that if your opponent is cutting corners. Otherwise, they're dangerous because of their potential; the threat of picking up all the infestors or picking up half the roaches in an engagement. And later, they can't actually go for a Hive-tech Broodlord army without seriously respecting the Phoenixes. It's like terrans getting ghosts in TvP; they're mainly a counter to HTs and Archons, but they're still good enough against everything else that terran always wants to get them, eventually.
The game on ohana was quite inspirational. Lots of things going, lost of unit compositions that seem effiecient. For example the addition of the voidrays with your harrasment is really smart since he doesn't really have anything to do about the voidray with the huge amount of phoenix around it (and the observer ofc, very important). I also need to get in the habbit of using warpprisms with my phoenix. I often time have that the zergs are turtling with just infestors and zerglings, some +1 zealots would do wonders for my harrasment.
I think you should consider getting more +weapons upgrades for your ground army. Shields are awesome, too, but if your army is predominantly chargelots, boosting DPS gives a massive positive effect to your ground army. This is part of why I go double forge, although I end up getting armor first, usually because it's cheaper and I'm always spending a lot of gas. But that doesn't mean it's correct. Ideally, I want to go +1 weapons, +1 shields, and then get a twilight and second forge in time to start +2/0/+2. Nevertheless, I think +weapons is probably the most important upgrade for ground units because the army is basically chargelot/immortal, and i think hydras and infested terrans are the main motivation to prioritize armor/shields because they're the only ranged dps machines zerg has.
I have some innovating replays as well of a phoenix heavy style but I do it quite different. I stay on 1 stargate for a long time but get the fleat beacon very early. I really feel the extra range increases my harrasment potential.
Here is a game that is quite straighforward about the style im using right now. I think however that I should either add more stalkers or immortals since I lost some ground armies due to my opponent's roach heavy composition.
Good lord, so that's what it's like to kill almost all of your opponent's overlords. I keep meaning to try that, but its so awesome to see it in action. I think the only thing you could have done to dominate this game even more is to have a little bit better vision of incoming attacks on your 4th and to cannon it a bit. It's not like you even needed to do that, though. This was disgusting; you beat this guy into oblivion. I know I've had some really awesome wins with this style, but I haven't been able to kill all of the infestors and then a majority of the overlords before a remax. That's like a combo finish!
Nice overlord hunting with the watchtower in the beginning, by the way.
http://drop.sc/265017
This game is a good example of what happens when a zerg tries to keep his infestor count similair to your phoenix count; He won't have any gas to make anything else but zergling for the most part and will still not stand a chance against phoenix that are spread out.
Really nice spread on the Phoenixes, this game. I think you were a bit fortunate that your opponent didn't build infestors as fast as he could have--he waited until pathogen glands finished. Even then, though...you did so much damage, and he made so many lings (and that roach warren) in the beginning, he was just so far behind all game. Which is to your credit, and also to the credit of this opening.
There were times in this game where you were fighting with 1/0/3 zealots against 1/2 zerglings. It wasn't bad, by any means, but this is what made me notice that you don't get +2 weapons for your ground.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4Hint.jpg?1)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/D1tLH.jpg?1)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eP5wN.jpg?1)
