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On August 20 2012 00:49 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 00:20 ineversmile wrote:
I've used this build almost exclusively in PvZ for about a month now, and I'm really glad that people are starting to see the light about the 13 gate 14-15 gas opener. The idea that you'll somehow get an advantage by opening Gateway first then going Stargate rather than Forge Fast Expand is totally dependent on how your opponent reacts. These kinds of builds are working because Zergs have forgotten how to play vs Gateway first openers and are so used to Forge Fast Expands. Gateway first used to dominate the matchup, and Zergs figured out all these pressure builds and they started to literally do nothing. So they will continue to do literally nothing, unless Zerg reacts poorly.
1. Maps were a lot smaller when the FFE started taking over, so you could get wrecked by aggression timings back then whereas now a lot of those timings are considerably later. Even if they're delayed by 5 or 10 seconds, that's practically a lifetime of difference.
2. Zergs primarily beat the Gateway openers with speedling openers and other gas-pool busts. If you try that opening against a FFE, you get destroyed. So if both 13gate and FFE exist and the Zerg decides to open gas/pool, he's seriously gambling and will come out really far behind if you decided to FFE. There is also the Yuffe to consider, which is a middle ground expansion plan which is pretty safe from Speedling openings and will also put the Zerg far behind.
In addition, when you scout the gas/pool from the zerg, you know to delay your nexus, cancel your third stalker for a sentry, and cut probes until you establish a strong wall on the low ground. And you go home with your pressure at that point, because you don't need pressure to be ahead or even against gas/pool--you just need to safely take a delayed expansion. It's not like the old days where you'd be close spawn on Metalopolis and a 7RR would show up at your doorstep while you were doing a Sentry expand, and everyone was missing simple forcefields because the collective unit control of all players was a lot crappier (except for MC).
3. If the Zerg doesn't open Gas/Pool and sees that you haven't FFEed, he does't exactly know what you're doing. Are you proxy gating? Are you building 1 gate in base, like this opening? Are you going up to 2 gates for heavy pressure? What about the 4gate? Teching hard with double gas? The proper Zerg response seems to be to get gas when you don't see the FFE, which leads to about a 7:00-7:30 gas timing, but then he also has to either scout or gamble to figure out what else you're dong. So what does he do, fly his overlord into your main and into a stalker? Drone scout? Send 2/4 lings over to get denied by the Zealot/Stalker or Stalker? Send 6/8 lings over and lose all of them and their larva (at that stage of the game) at the cost of information? If he doesn't see what's going on, how many spines should he build? If he builds 1 and you 4gate, that's not going to hold. If he builds 2 or 3 and you just drop a ~30 Nexus behind 2-3 gateway units, you just killed a couple drones and forced useless base defense instead of another hatchery or queens or a Roach Warren (to send a bust over).
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On August 20 2012 08:29 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:21 B1itZZ wrote:On August 20 2012 07:59 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 20 2012 07:57 B1itZZ wrote:On August 20 2012 06:03 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:
I think you've misunderstood the idea behind 1g expo'ing instead of FFE. With a build like this, you're counting on your opponent to play honest (such as the Zerg not going hatch first, and investing into speed before its needed/roach warren because they're afraid of gateway pressure), contrary to being able to keep them honest.
Well this is what I mean. In the sense that it stops them cutting corners and trying to get away with being greedy economically, as so many Zergs are doing at the moment. No it doesnt stop them from cutting corners. If you open 1g fe, you're counting on them to be too scared to cut corners. Well if they are reacting through fear of what you can do then it accounts to the same thing.. People will not do this vs FFE and proceed with fast 3rd etc, as is my point. There is no way you can control what people will or will not do. Im just pointing out, this build is only as "solid/good" whatever you wanna call it as your opponent is scared/accounting for the things you could be doing. Let me put it this way, if you open FFE, your worst case scenarios will better than if you open 1g expo. That said, I like to do a variation of this build myself, just greedier with 4x cb on probes and no probe-scouting, stalker nexus 5:34ish Stargate, Forge after 4th pylon and sentry. What I do can be exploited in numerous ways, so can the build described in this guide, and so can all builds in this game. It's ultimately just a question of risk/reward-calculation and what you expect your opponent to do and how you expect your opponent to react to what you're doing. Edit: just a little clarification, my Stargate is done at 5:34 is what I meant.
Ok, I now see what you are saying. Just that IMO it would be very risky for the Zerg player not to respond as such.
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On August 20 2012 08:48 B1itZZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 08:29 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 20 2012 08:21 B1itZZ wrote:On August 20 2012 07:59 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:On August 20 2012 07:57 B1itZZ wrote:On August 20 2012 06:03 BBQ`BBQKingPrime wrote:
I think you've misunderstood the idea behind 1g expo'ing instead of FFE. With a build like this, you're counting on your opponent to play honest (such as the Zerg not going hatch first, and investing into speed before its needed/roach warren because they're afraid of gateway pressure), contrary to being able to keep them honest.
Well this is what I mean. In the sense that it stops them cutting corners and trying to get away with being greedy economically, as so many Zergs are doing at the moment. No it doesnt stop them from cutting corners. If you open 1g fe, you're counting on them to be too scared to cut corners. Well if they are reacting through fear of what you can do then it accounts to the same thing.. People will not do this vs FFE and proceed with fast 3rd etc, as is my point. There is no way you can control what people will or will not do. Im just pointing out, this build is only as "solid/good" whatever you wanna call it as your opponent is scared/accounting for the things you could be doing. Let me put it this way, if you open FFE, your worst case scenarios will better than if you open 1g expo. That said, I like to do a variation of this build myself, just greedier with 4x cb on probes and no probe-scouting, stalker nexus 5:34ish Stargate, Forge after 4th pylon and sentry. What I do can be exploited in numerous ways, so can the build described in this guide, and so can all builds in this game. It's ultimately just a question of risk/reward-calculation and what you expect your opponent to do and how you expect your opponent to react to what you're doing. Edit: just a little clarification, my Stargate is done at 5:34 is what I meant. Ok, I now see what you are saying. Just that IMO it would be very risky for the Zerg player not to respond as such.
If you try to account for everything, there will always be scenarios where you are at a relative disadvantage, which making winning impossible unless your race is overpowered or you outplay your opponent. You have to take risks one way or another.
Edit: wording.
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I've been doing a similiar build on ladder for a couple months now. I'm only a lowbie nobody, but it's very fun and seems to be pretty effective. I go for 2 gates at the natural rather than 1gate+1forge, and then I can threaten gateway aggression a lot better, hopefully forcing more spines+roaches as I'm building up my 4 pheonix.
I usually throw down my robo after the second pheonix and then do a 3 collosus 6gate all-in off 2 bases after he's finished holding off the pheonix.
I like this as your initial zealot/stalker poke forces lings, then the feigned gate pressure forces spines+roaches, then the pheonix force spores+queens. So people at my level (plat/diamond) are usually in a bad position to deal with the collosus push.
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if your opponent is playing greedy like hatch first/3 hatch, what are the best ways to put on pressure or all in to punish them for underestimating your faster warpgate possibility?
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On August 22 2012 00:35 zelkia wrote:
if your opponent is playing greedy like hatch first/3 hatch, what are the best ways to put on pressure or all in to punish them for underestimating your faster warpgate possibility?
I like 4 ways of dealing with greedy zerg play:
1. 4gate. It's a bit delayed because you boost probes early, but you can make up for that speed loss by getting a robo and warp prism, which can let you go wreck the main behind their spine crawlers. Or you can build your Nexus and boost your WG research and do a 5gate nexus cancel all-in.
2. 2gate. Instead of using a WG timing, you just build another gateway and put on heavy pressure the old-fashioned way with 2 gateways pumping units. It's like the 3 stalker rush but against Zerg. If they're trying to do triple hatch, just go to their expo and kill their queens and lings, then use your discretion about whether to back up and recharge shields or to just go up the ramp and kill them. With good micro you can usually either kill them or destroy a lot of their infrastructure, and you can build a nexus behind this. A good follow-up is Twilight tech and DT shrine on 2 bases, which will usually cancel their third and potentially end the game if they gamble without detection. You can also go blink, which is good with the pre-existing stalker count from the 2-gate pressure.
3. Cut your Zealot, pull your probes off of gas after you get 100 for Stalker+Core, and get a Nexus immediately. Then go build another Nexus. Then build your third pylon at the natural, boost your warpgate constantly, and build a bunch of gates at your natural ramp and in your main. One stalker is enough to deal with the intial 2 or 4 lings by itself, so you just fight fire with fire and cut all the corners to get a ridiculously fast third yourself, and build a zealot and nothing else but gates. If you see a ton of slow lings coming across the map, you just cancel the third and sit behind your wall at the natural and enjoy the fact that he just built a bunch of lings instead of drones, and probably invested into speed so the lings can be faster while they're useless outside your base. Expect a desperate all-in very soon.
4. Play normally, because you get ahead by just doing this opening straight-out against gasless third hatch, even if it's hatch first from the zerg. Go to his natural with Zealot/Stalker/Stalker, force spines and kill what you can, and then back off and go cancel his third. Then go home before speed finishes and you're in good shape.
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On August 22 2012 00:57 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 00:35 zelkia wrote:
if your opponent is playing greedy like hatch first/3 hatch, what are the best ways to put on pressure or all in to punish them for underestimating your faster warpgate possibility? I like 4 ways of dealing with greedy zerg play: 1. 4gate. It's a bit delayed because you boost probes early, but you can make up for that speed loss by getting a robo and warp prism, which can let you go wreck the main behind their spine crawlers. Or you can build your Nexus and boost your WG research and do a 5gate nexus cancel all-in. 2. 2gate. Instead of using a WG timing, you just build another gateway and put on heavy pressure the old-fashioned way with 2 gateways pumping units. It's like the 3 stalker rush but against Zerg. If they're trying to do triple hatch, just go to their expo and kill their queens and lings, then use your discretion about whether to back up and recharge shields or to just go up the ramp and kill them. With good micro you can usually either kill them or destroy a lot of their infrastructure, and you can build a nexus behind this. A good follow-up is Twilight tech and DT shrine on 2 bases, which will usually cancel their third and potentially end the game if they gamble without detection. You can also go blink, which is good with the pre-existing stalker count from the 2-gate pressure. 3. Cut your Zealot, pull your probes off of gas after you get 100 for Stalker+Core, and get a Nexus immediately. Then go build another Nexus. Then build your third pylon at the natural, boost your warpgate constantly, and build a bunch of gates at your natural ramp and in your main. One stalker is enough to deal with the intial 2 or 4 lings by itself, so you just fight fire with fire and cut all the corners to get a ridiculously fast third yourself, and build a zealot and nothing else but gates. If you see a ton of slow lings coming across the map, you just cancel the third and sit behind your wall at the natural and enjoy the fact that he just built a bunch of lings instead of drones, and probably invested into speed so the lings can be faster while they're useless outside your base. Expect a desperate all-in very soon. 4. Play normally, because you get ahead by just doing this opening straight-out against gasless third hatch, even if it's hatch first from the zerg. Go to his natural with Zealot/Stalker/Stalker, force spines and kill what you can, and then back off and go cancel his third. Then go home before speed finishes and you're in good shape.
Have you by chance got a rep or link to number 3. in action? I would be interested to see it.
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A high-level protoss told me:
Going mass ling off your 2 bases upon realizing that protoss is not getting a core after gate (going gateway nexus) will win the game right off the bat. Zealot block doesn't matter, protoss simply can't have enough units to deal with it. The protoss might kill 20 lings and expand the wall-off but the result is inevitable. He is baffeled that zergs have not realized this.
Thoughts on that?
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It'd be hard to hide mass slowlings. The protoss could get forge + cannons down in time if he keeps building more structures to wall. Plus, even the greedier protoss will get gas/cybercore soon after the 2nd gate.
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On August 22 2012 05:39 dachi wrote:
It'd be hard to hide mass slowlings. The protoss could get forge + cannons down in time if he keeps building more structures to wall. Plus, even the greedier protoss will get gas/cybercore soon after the 2nd gate.
Oops; I was thrown off by the title which says gateway expand and I thought gateway directly into nexus which is also something that has been blowing up. My bad.
I did mention gateway -> nexus in my post so maybe we happened to be talking about the same thing after all. What I'm talking about is basically instantly going szzzzzzzzz rally to base win. Protoss can't scout that too easily before the units are halfway there and the first batch should win right away, the opponent can't get units or cannons out in time even if they ever so unlikely would realize it in time. Say they get cannons up, well they have completely walled themselves in and are pretty much forced to play on 1 base, zerg meanwhile can happily drone behind all this and be ahead. On top of it all, protoss just wasted time and minerals in the forge and cannon(s).
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On August 22 2012 05:27 ittron wrote:
A high-level protoss told me:
Going mass ling off your 2 bases upon realizing that protoss is not getting a core after gate (going gateway nexus) will win the game right off the bat. Zealot block doesn't matter, protoss simply can't have enough units to deal with it. He is baffeled that zergs have not realized this.
Thoughts on that?
Could be true, but I'm not sure. Is this speedlings or slowling? 14gas 14pool or 15pool 15/16hatch then 18gas? It really depends on the build order. Also this build is cybercore right after gateway so doesn't apply to this build. vs 14gas14pool you might wanna get your wall before your nexus.
eidt: nvm you meant exclusively vs gateway->nexus
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On August 22 2012 05:55 JayPower wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:27 ittron wrote:
A high-level protoss told me:
Going mass ling off your 2 bases upon realizing that protoss is not getting a core after gate (going gateway nexus) will win the game right off the bat. Zealot block doesn't matter, protoss simply can't have enough units to deal with it. He is baffeled that zergs have not realized this.
Thoughts on that? Could be true, but I'm not sure. Is this speedlings or slowling? 14gas 14pool or 15pool 15/16hatch then 18gas? It really depends on the build order. Also this build is cybercore right after gateway so doesn't apply to this build. vs 14gas14pool you might wanna get your wall before your nexus.
Yeah, I mentioned that in my post that it doesn't actually apply to this build at all.
I asked him, he said it really makes no difference.
For example,14 or 15 pool -> 15 or 16 hatch slowlings off the first proper set of injected larvae off 2 bases. (maybe not the best, but this not some kind of counter build to it, just a reaction you make make off a normal 2-base opening that will simply run your opponent to the ground) He said that you will get through, he can't build a strong enough wall even if he keeps doing it and they will never make units or cannons fast enough to stop it.
Edit: or maybe he meant that you just instantly start making lings when you see a gate->expo build and target the nexus down with and after that you will have enough lings to push the front too. I actually think that's more likely.
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United States1823 Posts
On August 22 2012 05:27 ittron wrote:
A high-level protoss told me:
Going mass ling off your 2 bases upon realizing that protoss is not getting a core after gate (going gateway nexus) will win the game right off the bat. Zealot block doesn't matter, protoss simply can't have enough units to deal with it. The protoss might kill 20 lings and expand the wall-off but the result is inevitable. He is baffeled that zergs have not realized this.
Thoughts on that?
Gate-Nexus-Forge opening can deal with 2-base lings is fine if you know the timings and have proper sim city. The only really tricky part is the micro involved to defend your first cannon from the first batch of lings (while at the same time making sure they don't sneak up your ramp), but with proper micro and simcity you're fine. If the zerg really commits you will take damage but in most cases they have to completely deny the expansion or you are pretty far ahead.
edit: actually it looks like to me the build in the OP it would be even easier to deny the expansion with mass lings since it is gate-core-nexus-forge and you won't have buildings on the low ground to wall-off.
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I don't really get the purpose of the build.
Lack of sentries makes it pretty vulnerable to speedling harass or denial of your expo. Even though early gas is really rare in the metagame many players still (and maybe should) respond to gate first with a relatively fast gas. And even if they do get the fast third, you have no means to pressure it with this really.
Secondly, your stargate isn't even much faster than a FFE build.
To me it feels you're just hurting your own economy for very little gain (slightly faster stargate, just a little more pressure).
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On August 22 2012 07:31 Markwerf wrote:
I don't really get the purpose of the build.
Lack of sentries makes it pretty vulnerable to speedling harass or denial of your expo. Even though early gas is really rare in the metagame many players still (and maybe should) respond to gate first with a relatively fast gas. And even if they do get the fast third, you have no means to pressure it with this really.
Secondly, your stargate isn't even much faster than a FFE build.
To me it feels you're just hurting your own economy for very little gain (slightly faster stargate, just a little more pressure).
In the current meta-game your opponent's speed won't be done nearly in time to deny your expansion. I reccomend watching some of my replays so you cant get an idea of when speed is done and see that no one actually drone scouts or opens gas first (not even in pro games). If your opponent does go for triple hatch before gas (which he shouldn't for obvious reasons), you can punish it by going 4gate after expand (or even with a nexus cancel). You're right though that I left quite a big part out of this guide on how to respond to zergs not respecting your warpgate timing being done much faster. Also you forget the fact that the zerg has to be more careful with droning.
I really recommend watching some of my replays, especially the ones where I all-in off 2 base. I don't hurt my economy at all if the zerg doesn't cut corners (where you can punish him for).
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This is exactly what I was looking for, thank you !
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Hi! I'm a novice player and I've begun testing it against AI. Instead of early expanding the computer almost always goes for Zergling/Roach rush. How do you adjust your strategy if you scout an incoming rush? I've found it's much harder to initially harass with your 1st Zealot if they have Roaches.
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No clue? 
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Very well written guide, thanks for posting this <3
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ive tried this a few times in high plat, and it doesnt show me any results. Every game ive done this, ive just had the zerg all in me - which is successful for him in most cases - so it seems pretty pointless. If his all in doesnt work it just leaves us both a bit crippled.
Are there maps where its better/worse to do this on?
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EPT
